I ran Scarf with Spikes/u-turn/flower trick/knock prior to the dolphin/bundle bans. Trying to recreate then gen 7 Gren magic. It was pretty consistent at pressuring stuff and was a good revenge killer for those two targets in particular. Felt like I never clicked spikes
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
ngl I don't like Spikes on it bc Gren ran it primarily to mitigate weakness (and you had more flexibility prior to the nerf so it wasn't necessarily choiced)
I think Play Rough should be mandatory on Meowscarada just because Fairy STAB is so rare yet helpful in this tier and that does what spikes did in terms of mitigate a weakness.
Frostmoth also gains access to defog I think
Saw someone running this and it seems interesting
Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 Def
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Tera Blast
- Earthquake
Guessing on the nature and EVs; could possibly invest some in bulk to live certain things. But Steel Tera Blast smacks fairies who want to switch in on Draco Meteor, and Earthquake surprises things that think they can live after the Meteor SpA drop. Intimidate is really nice to have in this meta, imo
Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 Def
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Tera Blast
- Earthquake
Guessing on the nature and EVs; could possibly invest some in bulk to live certain things. But Steel Tera Blast smacks fairies who want to switch in on Draco Meteor, and Earthquake surprises things that think they can live after the Meteor SpA drop. Intimidate is really nice to have in this meta, imo
I wonder how come smogon hasn't currently placed charizard as "OU by technicality".
according to pikalitics,charizard has only 1% usage right now.
according to pikalitics,charizard has only 1% usage right now.
OU by technicality is reserved essentially exclusively to mega Evolutions, with base forms that are considered better than the Mega Evolution, forcing the Mega Evolution to be considered OU... by technicality.
Any drop of a new pokemon will automatically place it into OU until the next usage statistics come out.
I will ignore the ending part of Alephgalactus message because that is when his post started to stray.
Alephgalactus was seeing the vision I was talking about, until he got to the ending when he dropped the vision ball.
The fact still remains that Gengar has the tools necessary to cause issues to unsuspecting players.
This separates Gengar from other Ghost types.
Sure, The idea may be a little cheesy and the idea may not catapult Gengar to the S tier Viability Status.
However, I see no reason why Gengar should be “D” rank.
Gengar could be C+ or B- rank.
When you look at the Pokémon in the C+ rank, you can see they are not doing anything special.
Barraskewda
Iron Thorns
Masquerain
Pincurchin
ScovillainNot every Pokémon team is running these Pokémon.
Most of these Pokémon are niche on very specific teams.
When you look at the Pokémon in the B- rank, you can see a similar theme.
Gyarados
Hawlucha
Hippowdon
Iron Jugulis
Orthworm
Pelipper
Slither Wing
Tauros-Paldea-FireThe Pokémon are good, but not amazing.
This is the same running theme for Gengar.
Gengar is a Good Pokémon.
Gengar can counter a very popular Pokémon getting used on Sample Team’s.
Gengar can do his hit & run tactics with out worry due to the Dark Move (Pursuit) getting nerfed.
The Meta Favors Gengar as it is very Ghost Dominated.
Alephgalactus created the below move set for Gengar.
It wasn’t the move set I was thinking about using on Gengar, but it looks valid.
Gengar @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mean Look
- Skill Swap
- Taunt
- Sludge Bomb
Alephgalactus created the below Battle Summary for Gengar.
Comes in on Grimm and Mean Looks while it sets up a screen, then Taunts as it attempts to Parting Shot. If it’s got Light Screen, you can hit it with a Sludge Bomb before stealing Prankster; if not, steal Prankster right away and then go for the Sludge Bombs (Taunt will run out but it won’t matter). If Cyclizar comes in after you’ve got Prankster, Taunt it so it can’t Shed Tail. If Espathra comes in and it’s not behind a sub, Taunt to prevent it from boosting/subbing and Tera Steel to resist both its moves.
I would like to share my Gengar move set & my thoughts.
Before I do, I wanted to talk about Grimmsnarl for a moment.
My idea is to use Gengar to kill Grimmsnarl.
Alephgalactus went along with my above idea and added the move mean look to prevent the enemy from hard switching Grimmsnarl out.
Alephgalactus added the item Clear Amulet to double down on the above idea because he anticipated the enemy Grimmsnarl to have Parting Shot.
If the enemy Grimmsnarl has parting shot, I do feel like Alephgalactus set recommendation is better vs. mine.
I created my Gengar move set based on what a lot of the sample team‘s I saw were recommending.
They were telling beginners to run the following moves on Grimmsnarl:
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Spirit Break
This move set doesn’t have Parting Shot which means the move Mean Look should be enough to keep Grimmsnarl locked into the battle.
This also allows my Gengar to run a different item vs. Clear Amulet.
I was thinking of running the below Gengar set:
Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 60 Def / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mean Look
- Trick
- Destiny Bond
- Sludge Bomb
The Battle summary I was trying to create is below:
I open with Gengar vs. Enemy Grimmsnarl.
Gengar uses the move Mean Look while Grim is setting up Light Screen.
Gengar uses the move Sludge Bomb while Grim uses Spirit Break
Gengar uses the move Sludge Bomb fainting Grim
If Cyclizar comes in after you faint Grim, Gengar doesn’t have to stop the Shed Tail.
Cyclizar uses Shed Tail passing Sub. Espathra while Gengar uses Sludge Bomb destroying the Sub.
Gengar uses the move Trick while Espathra tries to Boost.
If the item Black Sludge is on Poison Type Pokémon, The Pokémon heals 1/16th health per turn.
If the item Black Sludge is on a Non-Poison Type Pokémon, The Pokémon loses 1/8th health per turn.
Gengar is Ghost/Poison type Pokémon as long as Black Sludge is on him he gains healing.
When Gengar tricks it to Non-Poison Type, It becomes a Item of Destruction which puts them on a timer.
The last move Destiny Bond is a move Gengar has used in the past.
When Gengar health runs low, you can simply use the move Destiny Bond to drag down any Pokémon with him.
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This set I am showing on Gengar may seem cheesy, but I feel it captures the essence of Gengar very well.
Take stock of the situation we are talking about.
1st. Gengar faints Grim
2nd. Gengar Trick/Black Sludge Item can cripple if not faint another Pokémon
3rd. Gengar Destiny Bond can take out another Pokémon as he faints
Look at the value!
1 Pokémon taking out 3 Pokémon is insane value.
Gengar has the capability of doing the above.
Past Generations, Mega Gengar would trap Slower Support Pokémon with the ability Shadow Tag.
Than Mega Gengar would faint them Pokémon.
The ability Shadow Tag prevents an enemy from retreating similar to the move Mean Look.
The ability Shadow Tag was ban to Ubers because it’s completely insane.
However, we still have the move Mean Look.
It may not be as desirable as Shadow Tag, but we can make due.
We are creating the Scenario!
We are trying to get Gengar in vs. Low Damage Dealing Support.
Than we are trying to prevent it from running away.
Gengar doing Gengar Stuff.
It’s completely fine.
Slowking is kinda cool with a pivot move, but Chilly Reception's lack of negative priority kinda hurts because it turns into a fast switch under TR. Mental Herb + Regenerator unironically feels better than Oblivious even though the latter blocks Taunt. Future Sight misses timing.
...
dont
For real though, would Frosmoth be a decent option for Trick Room if you are running Slowking as the setter? It's a decent Ground resist who get a boost with Snow, with access to a very strong Blizzard and also sets up Aurora Veil for you to more easily set up your next Trick Room, and potentially leading to an easier Belly Drum later on.
Here's some ridiculous heat I've been meaning to test:
Tauros-Paldea-Water (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat
- Raging Bull
- Smart Strike
I admittedly may have miscalculated how Beads Of Ruin work, but if I've done it right, this guy avoids the 2HKO from anything Chi-Yu can throw at it, and KO in return with CC. Aqua Jet is there for priority, Raging Bull is a fuck you to screens teams, and Smart Strike hits Grimmsnarl and Hatterene for slightly harder than anything else. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
Tauros-Paldea-Water (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat
- Raging Bull
- Smart Strike
I admittedly may have miscalculated how Beads Of Ruin work, but if I've done it right, this guy avoids the 2HKO from anything Chi-Yu can throw at it, and KO in return with CC. Aqua Jet is there for priority, Raging Bull is a fuck you to screens teams, and Smart Strike hits Grimmsnarl and Hatterene for slightly harder than anything else. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
Those are due to the fact that past gens are unable to make tier changes. Gen 9 is not a past gen
Frosmoth really only seems viable if you rely on Tera. And that in itself is not something I'm sure you should want to do. But if you did, it's a bit intruiging as a special wall on paper. There are some calculations where it can say Tera Water and directly take Chi-Yu's attacks while Quiver Dancing in its face. Frosmoth is slow so it can't really sweep without getting off multiple Quiver Dances, and even then, it's still vulnerable to priority moves since most of those are physical.
As a support, you are still relying on Tera in all likelihood. And I'm just not sure it's wise to waste Tera on just a support. It can run Snowscape or be used in a Snow team where its defense gets raised, but its natural HP and defense likely aren't worth it. Neither is using its natural typing or Tera Ice to try and keep a defense boost.
I've not heard of using Frosmoth in Trick Room. Abomasnow would likely outclass it in this regard, especially if you are looking for an Aurora Veil setter. Eiscue and Avalugg as well, probably. Still not sure any of these are OU.
i think we can all agree that garganacl is awesome and amazing and beautiful
Awesome and amazing sure, I can get behind it.
I don't know about beautiful though.
It's a very good Pokémon, Salt Cure is so OP, and it doesn't get statused so if you're bulked up correctly you can force a lot of ragequits. It's not like Magma Storm where when you switch out the effect of the move stops, it just keeps going.
Cinderace countdown clock: 12 days until free in OU
wait why? its becuase pokemon home or what? what is happening
(also, i just know, somebody will try a Mewscarada + Cinnderace + Greninja FWG + Protean combo)
Cause there's an in-game raid for it.
Finch always coming at us with the latest!
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Sidenote: Gholdengo should be suspected right after Tera, this thing literally abuses the inability to clear your hazard and if you don't carry it on your team you'll always lose on a team that's entry hazard heavy. The most common Rapid Spinner are the Great Tusk and Iron Tread and so you'll always see Gholdengo with Air-Balloon so when you do expect to go for the Rapid Spin and switches in, you don't know it has Air Balloon. Then you have to either eat a Make it Rain or carry Knock Off and Tera Type into Dark. I'm such a Dengo apologist but jeez it controls the entire metagame, it's bad.
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Sidenote: Gholdengo should be suspected right after Tera, this thing literally abuses the inability to clear your hazard and if you don't carry it on your team you'll always lose on a team that's entry hazard heavy. The most common Rapid Spinner are the Great Tusk and Iron Tread and so you'll always see Gholdengo with Air-Balloon so when you do expect to go for the Rapid Spin and switches in, you don't know it has Air Balloon. Then you have to either eat a Make it Rain or carry Knock Off and Tera Type into Dark. I'm such a Dengo apologist but jeez it controls the entire metagame, it's bad.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Cinderace is actually a fucking fantastic addition to the meta right now because it means WE GOT OUR GHOLDENGO ANSWER BABY LET’S GOOO
(still suspect it tho, string cheese man is OP, but go for Chi-Yu first)
(still suspect it tho, string cheese man is OP, but go for Chi-Yu first)
Hate seeing Great Tusk on every opponent's team? Want to find a way to exploit it? Well, I have just the set for you:
Roaring Moon @ Sitrus Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 8 HP / 168 Atk / 224 Def / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Jaw Lock
- Earthquake
- Roost
The set speed creeps max speed Great Tusk, invests into physical bulk to avoid a 3HKO from Jolly max attack Great Tusk when Terastalized, and dumps the rest into physical attack to hit harder.
I was inspired by the recent innovation of Tera-Bug Flash Fire Ceruledge, which turns Great Tusk into set up fodder due to the standard set never running a Rock type move. As such, if this Roaring Moon set is able to latch onto Great Tusk with Jaw Lock, it can easily get to +6.
Bug has the unique benefit of resisting both Ground and Fighting while also not being weak to any priority moves (besides Accelrock but lol). This makes +6 Roaring Moon even more difficult to deal with if the opponent doesn't have an Unaware Dondozo or Terastalized-Skeledirge.
Since your goal is to trap Great Tusk, it's going to Knock Off you, so your item doesn't matter a ton. Sitrus Berry can help you bluff Choice Band, which makes your opponent more likely to go into Great Tusk as their primary switch in. Boots let you not worry about hazards, particularly Toxic Spikes, that may make 1v1ing Great Tusk a bit scarier.
Some calcs:
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 8 HP / 224 Def Roaring Moon (Bug): 99-117 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite (Normal) Extreme Speed vs. 8 HP / 224 Def Roaring Moon: 148-175 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. +1 8 HP / 224 Def Roaring Moon: 136-162 (38.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (approximation of Sword of Ruin)
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 342-403 (131 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 342-403 (113.6 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 297-350 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 397-468 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 378-445 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Flaws:
-Requires your Tera
-You need to get the Jaw Lock trap turn right
-Not too helpful if your opponent doesn't have a Great Tusk
-If Great Tusk is running the very rare Bulk Up set, your plan backfires
Despite these flaws, if you're able to trap the Great Tusk, the benefits are massive. +6 Roaring Moon will either win on the spot, or the opponent will be forced to expend so many resources to deal with it that the game may as well be over. Even if you only kill the Great Tusk, that's still a win since one of the best partners for this set is going to be Kingambit.
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Fairy / Ghost / Fire / Dark
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
Offensive Kingambit appreciates Great Tusk's removal, and Roaring Moon will dent whatever Dark resists your opponent may have in the process if it doesn't outright win, and Roaring Moon being taken down just gives you a Supreme Overlord stack.
Proof of Bug Roaring Moon + Kingambit concept replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1746304099
Conclusion: I think this set has potential when incorporate onto the proper team to take advantage of it. I haven't settled on anything for it yet, but with how common Great Tusk is in the meta right now it's going to win you some games and it's very fun if you can pull it off. Thoughts?
Roaring Moon @ Sitrus Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 8 HP / 168 Atk / 224 Def / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Jaw Lock
- Earthquake
- Roost
The set speed creeps max speed Great Tusk, invests into physical bulk to avoid a 3HKO from Jolly max attack Great Tusk when Terastalized, and dumps the rest into physical attack to hit harder.
I was inspired by the recent innovation of Tera-Bug Flash Fire Ceruledge, which turns Great Tusk into set up fodder due to the standard set never running a Rock type move. As such, if this Roaring Moon set is able to latch onto Great Tusk with Jaw Lock, it can easily get to +6.
Bug has the unique benefit of resisting both Ground and Fighting while also not being weak to any priority moves (besides Accelrock but lol). This makes +6 Roaring Moon even more difficult to deal with if the opponent doesn't have an Unaware Dondozo or Terastalized-Skeledirge.
Since your goal is to trap Great Tusk, it's going to Knock Off you, so your item doesn't matter a ton. Sitrus Berry can help you bluff Choice Band, which makes your opponent more likely to go into Great Tusk as their primary switch in. Boots let you not worry about hazards, particularly Toxic Spikes, that may make 1v1ing Great Tusk a bit scarier.
Some calcs:
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 8 HP / 224 Def Roaring Moon (Bug): 99-117 (28 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite (Normal) Extreme Speed vs. 8 HP / 224 Def Roaring Moon: 148-175 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. +1 8 HP / 224 Def Roaring Moon: 136-162 (38.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (approximation of Sword of Ruin)
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 342-403 (131 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 342-403 (113.6 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 297-350 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Jaw Lock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 397-468 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+6 168+ Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 378-445 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Flaws:
-Requires your Tera
-You need to get the Jaw Lock trap turn right
-Not too helpful if your opponent doesn't have a Great Tusk
-If Great Tusk is running the very rare Bulk Up set, your plan backfires
Despite these flaws, if you're able to trap the Great Tusk, the benefits are massive. +6 Roaring Moon will either win on the spot, or the opponent will be forced to expend so many resources to deal with it that the game may as well be over. Even if you only kill the Great Tusk, that's still a win since one of the best partners for this set is going to be Kingambit.
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Fairy / Ghost / Fire / Dark
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
Offensive Kingambit appreciates Great Tusk's removal, and Roaring Moon will dent whatever Dark resists your opponent may have in the process if it doesn't outright win, and Roaring Moon being taken down just gives you a Supreme Overlord stack.
Proof of Bug Roaring Moon + Kingambit concept replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1746304099
Conclusion: I think this set has potential when incorporate onto the proper team to take advantage of it. I haven't settled on anything for it yet, but with how common Great Tusk is in the meta right now it's going to win you some games and it's very fun if you can pull it off. Thoughts?
To be honest, and I know I have little to zero voice.
Suspects in order should go something like (In my opinion)
1. Chi-Yu (Ban this thing ASAP jeez)
2. Gholdengo
3. Cyclizar
4. Espartha
5. Annilhape
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For those talking about suspecting Ghold. It is annoying, yes, but how is this hazard stacking metagame any different from other metagames with very limited hazard control like Gen 5 NU or Gen 4 OU?
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