BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
literally the best series of posts in the last few days, screw meta discussion bring on the royal rumble
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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literally the best series of posts in the last few days, screw meta discussion bring on the royal rumble
Can't you just predict the Gholdengo switch in and double swap? Maybe I'm taking your words "will always switch in" too literally, but if it's that reliable then you should theoretically be able to play around it. In general, most of the effectiveness of Gholdengo requires it to have to switch in. So you can sort of dictate play if you keep this in mind, though the opponent can also bluff the potential of switching in with it.
The problem with Air Balloon Gholdengo is that it loses the item once it takes any chip. So it isn't generally a problem that lasts for too long. It's really just about if that time or two is enough to seal the game. But Closdsire isn't even a hazard clear option.
The biggest problem with Clodsire is it can be really passive. There are certain things it just cannot really touch, such as Orthworm, Corviknight, and sometimes Dondozo. When you use it, you need to be careful you aren't giving your opponent free turns.
I could recommend a different set or a more aggressive spiker like Garchomp, but I don't entirely know what you are aiming to do with your team besides the fact you claimed it was Balance. Without proper context, I would recommend you use Toxic and not Heavy Slam since Earthquake already hits most relevant mons that are immune to or counter Toxic.
4a? what's 4a?
tera is irrelevant to my argument about balancing gholdengo.
my argument was that gholdengo may see less usage since the move court change may start seeing more play.
it doesn't matter if tera gets banned or not, gholdengo can't block court change unless if it kills cirderace before it gets the chance to use it(similiar to maushold's tidy up),if cinderace uses choice skarf then it is guaranteed to outrun gholdengo.
Four attacks
On the topic of Cinderace returning, do note that besides its Court Change antics it received swords dance this generation. I'm sure alongside Court Change Pivot sets we'll see some SD offensive sets. I haven't ran too many of the calcs, but it'll definitely be an interesting guesswork to see if it's Court Change or SD on preview.
i mean consideirng how much cinderace values its coverage esp to nuke fairies with gunk shot and generally to be able to wear down walls such as skeledirge, garchomp, great tusks, dondozo, etc. HJK is for stuff like ting lui, garganacl, rotom-wash, etc. ANd sucker is just for faster stuff since idt zen is gonna be used. and u-turn for obvious reasons.. idt it has room to fit court change unless it drops coverage like HJK or gunk shot... and even SD prob wants the 3 attacks and drop u-turn
I don't think SD Cinderace will be good. It will always be Normal, so all other moves except Double Edge lose STAB. All Unaware Mons wall it too, easily (Quag, Dondozo, Skeledirge and even Clodsire easily eat Stabless moves,even the ones effective vs them ) . Would rather use Band if I wanted more power (of course, hazard removers would be needed for such a set).
it doesnt have to sd first.... lol and it can just run tera blast on sd sets to fuck over whatever mons it wants to .. like all it needs is pyro ball and hjk... and then smth like tera blast ghost would beat skeledirge, tera electric beats dondozo, but yeah... it has a bad stall MU when u can fit multiple of these mons
I mean, there's like 2 physical set up mons that don't lose to unaware mons (Haxorus and Tinkaton) and that's because of mold breaker, this feels like a silly arguement.
I'm obviously not nearly experienced enough to speak on this matter, but I don't really think this is a fair arguement.
Also, you can run Blaze if you so felt inclined (I've seen a couple of Overgrow Meowscaradas, same principle), and not SD turn 1 as HydreigonTheChild pointed out.
One thing is to lose to one Unaware Mon, SD Cinderace loses to all of them except Sdef Clod if it runs Zen Headbutt.
The entire point of Cinderace is to outspeed almost the whole Meta and destroy offense with his crazy coverage, pivoting out of walls with U-Turn. Or, if it has Room for it, use Court Change to fuck Hazard Stacks. SD in practice just doesn't accomplish anything, he won't be breaking walls, he is not fast enough to avoid being Revenge Killed by Meowscarada, Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon or Pult (unless Sucker Punch, which can be avoided with Status or Sub), and he is not bulky enough to safely use SD vs most of the meta. In fact, despite not doing calcs, I think that some offensive Mons like Chomp and Great Tusk, can even survive any +2 Move.
Just use another SD Mon that can actually break with it and use Stabs. You have a lot to choose from: Chien Pao, Scizor, Breloom, Ceruledge, Kingambit, Garchomp or even the ugly duck, all of them are better than Cinderace at using SD. Leave Cinderace to do what it's better at.
ceruledge cant even break half the unaware mons... idk if it even beats clodsire, garchomp only beats clodsire and skeledirge if its not tera but even then it can tank and WoW, kingambit also suffers, loom prob is the sole mon that can beat it but cant fit SD to save its life, and chien-pao still struggles but its generally good vs defense.
meowscarada cant hurt it enough, chien-pao sure, roaring moon sure but they do not want to switch into it and cinder has had pokemont that revenge it in the past in OU still does suepr well..
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 310-366 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 310-366 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 286-337 (65.8 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 286-337 (65.8 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
that is a lot of damage to a mon who cant recover well at all and is easy to wear down with hits....
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Garchomp: 357-420 (85 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Garchomp: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
still a lot of damage to a mon who cant recovery well.
litterally able to nuke most balance teams that rely on bulky mons to handle it such as chomp, dnite, great tusks, rotom-w, skeledirge, pex, etc. Sure its a bad stall mu but that has always been its worse MU by far.
This may seem like a strange Set but honestly Blaze Cinderace with Swords dance and Focus Sash sounds nice:
Blaze
Swords Dance
Pyro Ball
Sucker Punch
Court Change / Hi Jump Kick
Basically a physical Chi-Yu with Utility against Dondozo Teams via Court Change.
Note that this isn't meant as a definitive Set etc. But I really like the idea of a dual role in OU.
I hope it doesn't get suspected or something alone those lines.
Blaze
Swords Dance
Pyro Ball
Sucker Punch
Court Change / Hi Jump Kick
Basically a physical Chi-Yu with Utility against Dondozo Teams via Court Change.
Note that this isn't meant as a definitive Set etc. But I really like the idea of a dual role in OU.
I hope it doesn't get suspected or something alone those lines.
Well if you think about it, cinderace does seem bad that way but with all the skeledrige usage it seems even worse [unless it already tera'ed into a fairy type] but you forgot about the hazard removing thing that gholdengo can't block. Court Change. For spikes teams if you get in your ace and it does an uno reverse its pretty good for your team. Also you still have to consider the fact about what it could do with blaze as stated by this person.
Something like this does seem half decent ngl. Also court change literally sounds amazing in this meta.
I'm not sure how reliable the Libero calcs are here, because to realistically achieve the HJK hits or their equivalent, Cinderace needs to Terastalize and SD, or needs to HJK -> SD -> HJK again to make Libero set it to Fighting instead of Normal. This means it essentially needs 2 turns to hit the sweeping-level of Power (granted Libero on a lot of its moves isn't outright trivial damage even at +0) unless you dedicate Tera to it, at which point your opponent definitely has a stop to its momentum or a means to KO before you.
Cinderace is a mon I'm eager to see the potential of when it's not kicked upstairs, but the fact is Libero and SD don't synergize this gen. Frankly you'd be better off going with Blaze instead to at least keep Pyro Ball as a STAB nuke on a decent type (this more likely were Cinderace to drop to a lower tier than to be employed in OU).
This guy gets it. I don't think Cinderace has too much concern about a suspect this gen. Speed creep and a lot of Priority in the mix makes its speed easier to keep in check, and its Core-nuking potential is hampered by the Protean/Libero nerf, on top of a greater-than-ever reliance on HDB for Hazard stack hampering its power advantage over Meowscarada (slight ATK and much stronger Move BP)
ok then... maybe run double edge then... u can still run it to nuke those threats and with boots u can spam ur moves till later and even then at +0 ur still 2hko'ing or pressuring them very heavily... like garchomp is not wanting to take 2hjk nor great tusks wants to take them well esp with rocks or even a spike... even worse if its not even leftovers... and u can easily pressure phys def sets
man, ik. This would be amazing
I'm not doubting the Double Edge calcs numerically, but the HJK ones seem impractical and the difference in coverage + slight power difference means knowing what move is used to nuke matters a lot for the practicality of the calcs posted.
To illustrate one significant example, pre-Tera Gargancl, who you can't 2HKO without at least non-STAB HJK to avoid a Salt Cure (all calcs assume the most likely scenario that you're Normal from SD on the first turn out)
+2 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 418-492 (103.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garganacl: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Salt Cure going off is definitely a big concern for a frail set-up sweeper, and if Gargancl's on the field, every turn is now playing chicken with it using Protect (HJK recoil), Salt Cure (time is limited), Recover (undoing chip if you call bluff to set up more), ID (reducing damage to win set-up/stalling Wars), etc. A lot of common moves on this mon will give Cinderace problems despite SD sweepers usually having the job of breaking walls after they boost, and if Garg goes Tera-Ghost then you can't do anything to it
+2 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera-Ghost Garganacl: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
This is hyper-focused on one relevant mon, but I want to highlight that not having constant access to Libero puts Cinderace's Power+Coverage impression in a very different place and makes SD a much less notable increase for it over +0 STAB moves for hit-and-run.
I'd go as far as to argue that Libero Cinderace is better off running Bulk Up to "lock" into Fighting Typing vs Normal, while the +1 DEF is at least enough to buffer against some neutral Priority (all the following are Fighting-Cinderace) to avoid Revenge Kills. The following are Revenge Kills, so assumption is they have a free Switch into Cinderace but would be coming in to halt a sweep. Cinderace is using HDB so Hazard Damage is ignored while forgoing boosting items in the few non-obvious retaliations.
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 93-109 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 53% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 98-116 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO (+1 for 5 teammates fainted on Supreme Overlord, so worst case scenario of last-mon standing trying to salvage a game)
252 Atk Tera-Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera-Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(+1 Cinderace OHKO's with now-SE HJK through Multiscale ~70% of the time, so even with no rocks CB D-Nite can't RK without significant chip)
+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 98-116 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO (+1 for 5 teammates fainted on Supreme Overlord, so worst case scenario of last-mon standing trying to salvage a game)
252 Atk Tera-Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera-Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 169-201 (56.1 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(+1 Cinderace OHKO's with now-SE HJK through Multiscale ~70% of the time, so even with no rocks CB D-Nite can't RK without significant chip)
Scarfers are usually going to hit harder, but the extra defense doesn't hurt against those or just fast mons like Drag or Chien-Pao. Also might tough out a tank hit to discourage a bulky answer trading with it if you somehow kept it REAL healthy.
252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 134-158 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- approx. 10.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Neutral Icicle Crash into +1 is a bit lower than SS but would OHKO +0, so minor relevance at least)
252+ Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 232-274 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 143-169 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO (if any Spikes were down, Pyro Ball can nab the second hit to avoid a crash risk on switch predict or a Fighting Resist Terra)
This is assuming Tusk gets the free switch to threaten out, obviously gets chunked switching in directly
252 Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Neutral Icicle Crash into +1 is a bit lower than SS but would OHKO +0, so minor relevance at least)
252+ Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 232-274 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 143-169 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO (if any Spikes were down, Pyro Ball can nab the second hit to avoid a crash risk on switch predict or a Fighting Resist Terra)
This is assuming Tusk gets the free switch to threaten out, obviously gets chunked switching in directly
This is a lot of me spitballing an idea I'd be intrigued to see in practice, but realistically I don't think Boosting Cinderace will elevate it vs Court Change or Choiced sets. For all I posted above, it doesn't deal well with OU's Unaware mons without dedicating specific Coverage moves in its 3rd Attack to them (Zen for Clodsire, iffy Sucker for Skeledirge, Gunk Shot for Tera Fairy Dirge, SOL for Dondozo regardless), and despite my paltry few examples still faces revenge killing concerns from quite a few Scarfers or Booster Energies (T-Flying Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant eat this thing and are dangerous to give that entry momentum).
End Rabbit Rant
The current metagame feels like it has much less immediate power than gen 8 did. Palafin, Bundle, and Flutter were all quite the powerhouse, but right now there are very few mons where I feel like I am going to lose something every time they switch in. I tried to make a team with mostly choice mons to try a last ditch cheese attempt to for the suspect test, but even with that, the power felt much lower than last gen where things like Lele, Kart, and Urshifu would threaten a KO every time. This gen has more slow burning power with a lot of strong set up mons, but much less turn 1 threat.
You should give Specs Chi-Yu a try.
What is the argument for Specs vs Scarf? I have had some success with a Scarf set, playing it similar to gen 8 Scarf Lele. Chi-yu is def too strong for the current meta but it has been pretty fun
The main arguement for specs is that it is basically getting a Free KO if it switches into something slower. I run Tera Fire Specs and after Terastalizing, its able to achieve some ludicrous feats like dealing 88% to Iron Hands w/ Overheat at -2. That being said, I generally like Nasty Plot more since it isn't as prone to hazard chip thanks to Heavy Duty Boots and can find a fair number of setup opportunities thanks to the amount of switches its able to force.
Specs modest on sun is so potent not even Blissey tanks it on the swicth, of course you need obligatory torkoal and Tusk support, i have personally pair it with Sylveon to get a bit of a safe entry and negate rocks damage, it needs heavy support but everything DROPS
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