Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Shaymin Sky]

I don't get the hate on OU council for the "decision" to allow cinderace during the Tera suspect test. People claim it will "ruin" the last 2 days of reqs and people won't have time to prepare but like what else do you want OU council to do LOL? It was just an unfortunate time for a mon to be legal, but they can't just not have a mon be legal if its obtainable in the base game...like they can't just decide against smogon admins to deny cinderace from being legal for reasons other than a ban, they have no other choice here. Like do you want them to postpone the entire suspect test for 2 days on a mon that is not completely broken at a glance? Like this is not a fault on council idk what yall want them to do bro lmao, and quite frankly if u aren't gonna reqs "cus of ace" you probably weren't getting it anyways but that's a whoooole other topic

Some have made the argument that because cinderace can be added to the meta during a suspect test, then getting rid of pokemon during suspect test should be fair game but this makes 0 sense. A suspect test is meant to be a time to show your knowledgeable enough about the current metagame in order to make a voting decision, key word on CURRENT. If a new pokemon is added to the metagame than that is representative of the current meta whether you like it or not, what isn't representative of the current metagame is banning pokemon, if you ban a pokemon then that shakes up the game a lot in a unnatural way. If a pokemon is added because it is now legal, then that is just the new current metagame. The whole point of the suspect test is to test game knowledge, and it would be very easy to point and say "corrupt smogon xd" for banning chi yu during a suspect test which is a terrible idea from a smogon tiering administration POV especially. Is it silly that the new current metagame is only active for 2 days during the suspect test, sure I guess although im sure good players can adapt in time to just 1 mon and get reqs anyways so I don't even understand the complaining lol. In reality I think its highly unlikely someone would "unfairly miss reqs" because of 1 new pokemon being added, this is literally a skill issue I'm not kidding . Wouldn't it be a more inaccurate representation of the current metagame to arbitrarily ban cinderace when it is legal in OU during tera suspect test? You have to think of these things and situations from a council/tiering admin POV otherwise its very easy to complain and point fingers and shout nonsense.

 

[Vall]

I don't get the hate on OU council for the "decision" to allow cinderace during the Tera suspect test. People claim it will "ruin" the last 2 days of reqs and people won't have time to prepare but like what else do you want OU council to do LOL? It was just an unfortunate time for a mon to be legal, but they can't just not have a mon be legal if its obtainable in the base game...like they can't just decide against smogon admins to deny cinderace from being legal for reasons other than a ban, they have no other choice here. Like do you want them to postpone the entire suspect test for 2 days on a mon that is not completely broken at a glance? Like this is not a fault on council idk what yall want them to do bro lmao, and quite frankly if u aren't gonna reqs "cus of ace" you probably weren't getting it anyways but that's a whoooole other topic

I think people are just questioning some inconsistancies with the tiering policy. You're absolutely right that it doesn't actually matter, but there's been a large emphasis on standardizing the process, so I think some people are curious about the justification..

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I think people are just questioning some inconsistencies with the tiering policy. You're absolutely right that it doesn't actually matter, but there's been a large emphasis on standardizing the process, so I think some people are curious about the justification..

It's not inconsistent is what I am saying, outside forces such as bans on moves/items/pokemon/clauses ect from the OU council themselves is avoided as much as possible in order to upkeep an accurate representation of the current metagame in order to test the issue at hand, if a new thing is added due to legality reasons on cart than that is literally the new current metagame for OU, and the suspect test itself is still capable of going underway. Doing outside decisions such as banning chi yu, during a suspect test (especially one this important) is a terrible idea and is not a feasible/good way when it comes to running a suspect test. Also there is no "rule" or anything regarding the denial of new legal pokemon during a suspect test so I am unsure where people got this idea as well. If it's not an outside decision to change how the metagame works, it is typically gonna be fair game. If a new major metagame strat comes up during a suspect test would you ban that to upkeep the old metagame instead of the current? I fail to see how that's different from arbitrarily banning ace.

 

[FootHead58]

I don't get the hate on OU council for the "decision" to allow cinderace during the Tera suspect test. People claim it will "ruin" the last 2 days of reqs and people won't have time to prepare but like what else do you want OU council to do LOL? It was just an unfortunate time for a mon to be legal, but they can't just not have a mon be legal if its obtainable in the base game...like they can't just decide against smogon admins to deny cinderace from being legal for reasons other than a ban, they have no other choice here. Like do you want them to postpone the entire suspect test for 2 days on a mon that is not completely broken at a glance? Like this is not a fault on council idk what yall want them to do bro lmao, and quite frankly if u aren't gonna reqs "cus of ace" you probably weren't getting it anyways but that's a whoooole other topic

Some have made the argument that because cinderace can be added to the meta during a suspect test, then getting rid of pokemon during suspect test should be fair game but this makes 0 sense. A suspect test is meant to be a time to show your knowledgeable enough about the current metagame in order to make a voting decision, key word on CURRENT. If a new pokemon is added to the metagame than that is representative of the current meta whether you like it or not, what isn't representative of the current metagame is banning pokemon, if you ban a pokemon then that shakes up the game a lot in a unnatural way. If a pokemon is added because it is now legal, then that is just the new current metagame. The whole point of the suspect test is to test game knowledge, and it would be very easy to point and say "corrupt smogon xd" for banning chi yu during a suspect test which is a terrible idea from a smogon tiering administration POV especially. Is it silly that the new current metagame is only active for 2 days during the suspect test, sure I guess although im sure good players can adapt in time to just 1 mon and get reqs anyways so I don't even understand the complaining lol. In reality I think its highly unlikely someone would "unfairly miss reqs" because of 1 new pokemon being added, this is literally a skill issue I'm not kidding . Wouldn't it be a more inaccurate representation of the current metagame to arbitrarily ban cinderace when it is legal in OU during tera suspect test? You have to think of these things and situations from a council/tiering admin POV otherwise its very easy to complain and point fingers and shout nonsense.

To answer the question: it’s tradition that as soon as a mon becomes available in game, it’s added to showdown. In this case, it was during a suspect test. If you were truly going to get recs in the last 48 hours, then perhaps you can exploit this rapidly changing meta to seize a GXE above 80%. If you weren’t, there’s no need to complain. Cinderace got added to showdown as soon as it was available on cartridge, just like every other event, transfer, or home mon has in the past. Timing might be odd given it’s in a suspect, but that’s just how it played out.

On a somewhat related note, I think we as a community need to do a SIGNIFICANTLY better job of appreciating the work done to make OU a playable tier. The OU Council is a group of people on the internet who volunteer their time to hold together a playable and competitively balanced unofficial fan-meta for those who want to play 6v6 singles. They are currently navigating the most significant power creep ever seen in a single gen, a game changing new mechanic that isn’t outright broken enough to be QB’d, but some tiering action likely being warranted (despite no action seeming good enough), and an unprecedented “one mon at a time” trickle release from GameFreak. Leaders like Finch have also been able to make this the most transparency and communication we’ve ever seen from any council in recent memory, even despite the chaos of the last several weeks. AND the meta has been a vibrant, fun experience for the majority of players. If it weren’t for them, we’d all be out a metagame!

We’re all playing the same game, with the same goal of a fun, competitive metagame. Making it standardized requires oversight, organization, and communication, and the council does an excellent job at that. I think this community would be a better place if we all were a bit more understanding and gracious of the hard work put into our community!

 

[Finchinator]

Cinderace is now legal in SV OU and usable on Pokemon Showdown!

 

[Finchinator]

So quick bans can't happen during suspect testing, but meta changing Pokémon like Cinderance can be added during suspect testing?

(Not trying to sound like I'm complaining, I'm just curious of the thought process)

What thought process? We cannot withhold allowing a Pokemon from being released -- this is not a Smogon decision so much as a Pokemon/Game Freak decision...

And Cinderace is obviously not something worthy of starting in Ubers. There was no decision to be made here at all. Any comparisons between this and quick bans are blatant false equivalencies.

 

[Vall]

And Cinderace is obviously not something worthy of starting in Ubers. There was no decision to be made here at all. Any comparisons between this and quick bans are blatant false equivalencies.

Out of curiosity then, what if the mon introduced was as meta defining as chi-yu? Say something like landorous, magearna or Zapdos? I don't think people are arguing that in this case it's problematic, but there would be a similar rationale to witholding newly introduced mons until the suspect is over to banning problematic mons - both would introduce significant changes to a meta at a period that shouldn't be changed.

I think it's fine to say a non-issue in this case, but say that its a blatant false equivalency isn't fair

 

[awyp]

What thought process? We cannot withhold allowing a Pokemon from being released -- this is not a Smogon decision so much as a Pokemon/Game Freak decision...

And Cinderace is obviously not something worthy of starting in Ubers. There was no decision to be made here at all. Any comparisons between this and quick bans are blatant false equivalencies.

Like I said in my original post (It wasn't meant to sound accusatory / complaining) it was just asking a question that I don't think was broken down by the Council on this thread in regards to Cinderance. (Thank you for clarifying Finch)

 

[MasterPlayer]

Wait I thought it triggered on supereffective hit. Must have misread something with Weakness Policy

 

[Finchinator]

Out of curiosity then, what if the mon introduced was as meta defining as chi-yu? Say something like landorous, magearna or Zapdos? I don't think people are arguing that in this case it's problematic, but there would be a similar rationale to witholding newly introduced mons until the suspect is over to banning problematic mons - both would introduce significant changes to a meta at a period that shouldn't be changed.

I think it's fine to say a non-issue in this case, but say that its a blatant false equivalency isn't fair

We would always proceed as normal. We are subject to the timeline of the game’s releases and we will honor that. If a Pokemon would go OU, it’ll go OU regardless. There is always an avenue for future tests during more settled metagame states, which applies here as well.

 

[Vall]

We would always proceed as normal. We are subject to the timeline of the game’s releases and we will honor that. If a Pokemon would go OU, it’ll go OU regardless. There is always an avenue for future tests during more settled metagame states, which applies here as well.

Ah, okay that makes sense.

 

[658Greninja]

Since we are talking about Ace rn I just wanna talk about its meta implications with this long ass essay. For me Ace is doing absolute wonders rn, its everything the meta needs, a consistent answer to Glimm/Ghold offenses that also has fast wisp for Ape. Its speed tier is three points above Valiant all while being able to 1v1 it assuming Booster Energy isn’t in play.

Background•

Cinderace before its HA was released played the role of fast utility. It had fast U-Turn, strong Fire Stab, and Court Change that defined its role up until the release of Libero. Then it took IoA by strom. Its raw high bp moves coupled with very spammable U-Turns and being incredibly difficult to kill made it a problem for most teams leading it to be quickbanned. Even with Crown Tundra’s power creep, Lando, Chomp, and many other “checks” couldn’t stop it comfortably which resulted in Ace getting banned again.

Scarlet and Violet brought in a major change. Libero being nerfed to change its type only once while its on the field meant a severe nerf to its offensive capabilities as it became much easier to play around it. Along with a few old faces, SV also brought in some new checks, most notably Skeledirge who isn’t weak to anything Ace throws at it except Sucker Punch which shouldn’t be concerning for it.

Role in the Metagame•

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Will-O-Wisp/High Jump Kick
- Court Change/High Jump Kick/Gunk Shot
- U-turn

For the sole reason that there is a suspect test soon to close for Tera, I will not be discussing Tera Type here as its fate is uncertain but anyways. Hazard Stacking BOs and HOs have become staple in SV OU. With this gen having far less hazard control options compared the last few gens, consisting of Tusks, Treads, Corv, and a few niche options. Even the best hazard control we have can fall Ghold if not careful, this leads to 50/50 scenarios of Tusks clicking Spin or EQ/Knock predicting the switch. There has also been discourse with Ape, being so fast for its role as a bulky wincon and having a phenomenal move in Rage Fist. Enter Cinderace, who recomposes its old role of being fast utility. It can also return to spamming its high powered moves like before, however I believe its utility is where Cinderace will shine. Fast Will o Wisp cripples the likes of Ape, Tusks, Hands, Dnite, Chomp, Gambit, etc. Even something like Washtom is crippled via being unable to get lefties recovery. Being able to dent the opposing team with U-Turn + Wisp while flipping the script on their hazards is worth considering. Also helps that most of the mons it threatens out are afraid of Wisp, leading to scenarios like Scizor swapping out to Tusks only to eat a burn. The speed tier is juicy for outrunning Valiant and Adamant Pao which some teams
appreciate.

Checks/Counters•

Dirge is one of the best Ace answers for being hit by none of Ace’s moves, eventually being able to beatdown Ace with repeated Torch Songs and Hexes, if it doesn’t U-Turn out.

Another annoying presence for Ace, however

it is worth noting a few things. Stab U-Turns do a decent chunk of damage to it, and Ace can slot in HJK to 2HKO (be mindful of Protect and Tera tho).

Another rather consistent check to Ace. Shrugs off burns with Rest. Can be played around with U-Turn, and Wisp forcing Rests and eliminating lefties.

Another check. It doesn’t mind Wisp too much if it is Specs and outspeeds Ace even with Modest.

Best Partners•

Appreciates Ace chipping down Dozo and loves when it U-Turns on Dirge to bring it in. Together, they do great at wearing their checks down and forcing progress.

Forms a nice U-Turn core with Corv luring Ghold in for Ace to exploit. Slow U-Turn is highly appreciated ofc.

Pult again. Imo the best partner for Ace. Ace can spread burns easily onto targets, letting Pult pick them off with Wisp. Also appreciates it scaring Gambit. Mons like Dozo, Dirge, Washtom, and Pex can be prey to Hex. Specs Hydro can lure and 2HKO Garg. Both can also form a Voltturn core

Appreciates it burning the physical powerhouses that can pierce through its bulk like Tusks, Dnite, Hands, etc. Exploits Dirge and can help Ace force progress even further with Rocks + Salt Cure.

With Knock it cripples Dozo and other physical walls. Appreciates Ace’s hazard control meaning it doesn’t have to run Spin. Offensive variants with Ace can batter down holes in the opponents team with the combination of Tusks’ raw power and Ace’s ability to chip teams down. It also appreciates Ace bringing it in with U-Turn on Dirge and Garg.

Like with Tusks they both force progress with their respective roles. Adores it when Ace gets a burn off on Tusks meaning Hands can 1v1 it. CB variants can destroy Dozo and Garg. Bring something for Dirge tho.

Valiant can be brought in safely with Ace’s ability to pivot and force switch ins. Also threatens Valiant’s biggest checks in Ghold, Scizor, Amoonguss, and even Clod. Specs Valiant exploits the hell out of Garg and Dozo. Specs Sball can cripple Dirge for Ace. Booster Energy appreciates Ace’s ability to chip down the opposing team for a late game clean.

Just like Hands, it appreciates Ace’s ability to cripple its checks. It also just so happens to have a good mu against most of Ace’s bad mus. Gambit can also set up Rocks to further chip teams.

Protean mixes with Protean. Not only does Meow force progress with Knock and U-Turn, but they both answer to each of their checks while forming a Voltturn core. Simple. Meow threatens Dozo, and Garg, Ace threatens Amoonguss, and Corv. Both sides have their method of chipping the opponent down. Definitely the best offensive pairing for Ace.

Another mon to pair with Ace for a voltturn core. Both can spread status and chip defensive cores away. Washtom in particular threatens Dirge, Dozo, and Garg while forcing in switch ins that Ace can exploit.

Chi-Yu + Scizor was already a nasty pairing. Now we have Ace who can do the same thing for Scizor. Cinderace and Scizor also both can chip down their checks. Zor lures in Corv, Ace goes to town.

Remember Slowking? Of course you do, you played SS OU. Not only a slow voltturn core, but Future Sight helps Ace force progress even further. It also famously exploits Pex for Future Sight shenanigans. Since no one is running Light Screen on Pex this time around, go right ahead.

Conclusion•

Ace is gonna make Voltturn even stronger than it already is. With it pairing nicely with other offensive threats and being able to potentially strive as a top pick even with the nerf to Libero/Protean. Becoming a valuable asset for pivoting and utility, there is definitely gonna be a shift with Ace in the tier.

 

[Ryolain]

What thought process? We cannot withhold allowing a Pokemon from being released -- this is not a Smogon decision so much as a Pokemon/Game Freak decision...

And Cinderace is obviously not something worthy of starting in Ubers. There was no decision to be made here at all. Any comparisons between this and quick bans are blatant false equivalencies.

I mean, it absolutely is a Smogon decision what’s allowed under Smogon’s rules of play, otherwise there wouldn’t even be a Tera suspect because Smogon would be bound by GF’s decision to include the mechanic in the game. I certainly understand the desire to have strict guidelines for how this is handled given how much people will inevitably complain about every decision, so at least handling things in a consistent way gives you something to fall back on when justifying those decisions. But the only thing stopping the council from deciding to not allow Cinderace until the suspect ends is the council’s own policies.

Moreover, I think the contradiction comes from people saying QBs can’t be done during a suspect because it could fundamentally alter the meta in a way that would warp the ability to accurately judge Tera’s impact. There’s nothing false about equating the impact of removing a Pokémon to the impact of adding a Pokémon in terms of their potential to change the current meta and it feels kind of obtuse to act like it’s ridiculous to even compare the two. If the council’s policy is simply that changes to the game made by GF will always be followed even mid-suspect but Smogon’s tiering will not be changed mid-suspect then that’s certainly the council’s prerogative. And frankly even if it’s just a judgment call that it wasn’t worth holding off for 2 days for something that the council decided wouldn’t be that impactful to the meta, that’s totally fair too. But it would be nice to at least acknowledge that you understand why this feels off to people and not act like people are being illogical or that Smogon doesn’t have a choice in the matter.

 

[alephgalactus]

What thought process?

Oh boy, can’t wait to see this quote crop up every time a Council decision is controversial.

And Cinderace is obviously not something worthy of starting in Ubers. There was no decision to be made here at all.

I can agree with you that it’s not Uber this gen (and that the tier desperately needs it), but it did end last gen in Ubers, so there’s technically precedent for it starting there. And I know it would be a pretty unorthodox move to start it out in Ubers and then immediately drop it once the suspect is over, but everything about this is unorthodox. I just feel like this could have been handled a lot better, because altering the meta during a suspect test—especially after doing nothing about Chi-Yu because banning it would alter the meta—is leaving a bad taste in people’s mouths. It wasn’t like this was out of the blue; we knew about this raid several days in advance, so there should have been a conversation about it. If it’s tiering policy that’s keeping your hands tied again, then it’s very clear that the policy needs to change because I guarantee this will happen again.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with what you did, I just don’t think it matches up with the arguments you made earlier regarding Chi-Yu, and it’s a really bad look for the Council because it makes you seem inconsistent. Trying to play the “false equivalence” card is also not a great look for you in this situation because there is definitely an equivalence here, though not a perfect one.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

My problem is getting over-obsessed easily and losing track of when to stop to take a break, instead head-smashing against stuff until I get burnt and need to vent a little. I've had to take long-term breaks from Pokemon just because of that. Please do take that post as what I needed to write after 5~6h of near non-stop laddering only to see what seemed like my best chance get tainted by two consecutive losses (with bad luck, to boot), and never recover from there.
As for your quote, reading that is the only reason why I even thought I had a chance to get reqs, as 80% GXE is something I only got once at my peak performance in SS Ubers, and only for a short time. And when I tried to get there, I got so close I understood you were right and it was possible, but still managed to always be one step away of my hand. Which made me feel like I shouldn't give up, but that causes the aforementioned issues. Worst part is, I pretty much threw away a couple of games with terrible performance just out of fatigue.

Have no doubt that I do enjoy the game, and have loved it both in its cartridge form since Gen 1 as a kid and in its competitive form since Gen 6 when I started to build teams. I just REALLY need to know when to stop to take a break.

Honestly full agreed, I gave up trying to get reqs a while ago because I kept getting burnt out with restarting on new alts whenever bad RNG stuck, like I know I'm still good enough to get ~70% GXE consistently but probably not 80 without some serious luck and motivation to keep going. Maybe I'll try again for reqs on a future suspect again since the meta might see some drastic changes by then, which might make low ladder bearable again versus the hardest it's been in the several generations since I started playing

 

[Moyashi]

Moreover, I think the contradiction comes from people saying QBs can’t be done during a suspect because it could fundamentally alter the meta in a way that would warp the ability to accurately judge Tera’s impact. There’s nothing false about equating the impact of removing a Pokémon to the impact of adding a Pokémon in terms of their potential to change the current meta and it feels kind of obtuse to act like it’s ridiculous to even compare the two.

There isn't any contradiction though. Yes, banning a majorly influential Pokemon during a suspect like the one we have now, would significantly change the metagame and make it harder to judge said suspect subject's impact. That impact is much more apparent because we have had the Pokemon for a period of time to know what it's capable of. Compared to the impact of adding a Pokemon into the metagame during a suspect, we simply can't know what, if any impact that Pokemon will have because we haven't played with it yet. So you really can't compare the two circumstances.

I can agree with you that it’s not Uber this gen (and that the tier desperately needs it), but it did end last gen in Ubers, so there’s technically precedent for it starting there. And I know it would be a pretty unorthodox move to start it out in Ubers and then immediately drop it once the suspect is over, but everything about this is unorthodox. I just feel like this could have been handled a lot better, because altering the meta during a suspect test—especially after doing nothing about Chi-Yu because banning it would alter the meta—is leaving a bad taste in people’s mouths. It wasn’t like this was out of the blue; we knew about this raid several days in advance, so there should have been a conversation about it. If it’s tiering policy that’s keeping your hands tied again, then it’s very clear that the policy needs to change because I guarantee this will happen again.

It's pretty not typical for a previously banned mon to start in Ubers if it ended there the prior gen where it started in OU, unless the case is blatantly obvious (gen7 deoxys forms). Genesect, despite being overpowered every single time, has started the gen in OU anyways.

Why should policy change? The application was consistent. Just because you disagree or don't like the way it panned out doesn't mean it was wrong or needs to be changed. The arguments that it was inconsistent would really only work if Cinderace had a guaranteed impact on the tier to the extent of dramatically altering it and make tera harder to judge (much like banning Chi-Yu would, but Ace isn't. We don't know if Ace will change the meta and prior discussions before its were holy theory monning.

Trying to play the “false equivalence” card is also not a great look for you in this situation because there is definitely an equivalence here, though not a perfect one.

There is no real equivalence. I get that people want Chi-Yu banned. It's stupid and broken and I want it gone too. But there is no reason to be jumping down council's throat for simply following policy here.

 

[alephgalactus]

Compared to the impact of adding a Pokemon into the metagame during a suspect, we simply can't know what, if any impact that Pokemon will have because we haven't played with it yet. So you really can't compare the two circumstances.

The arguments that it was inconsistent would really only work if Cinderace had a guaranteed impact on the tier to the extent of dramatically altering it and make tera harder to judge (much like banning Chi-Yu would, but Ace isn't. We don't know if Ace will change the meta and prior discussions before its were holy theory monning.

Oh don’t even start with this shit. Court Change provides immense relief against two of the strongest archetypes in the game right now—hazard stacking with Gholdengo and Grimmsnarl Screens—at the same time, and Cinderace is infinitely more viable than anything else that can even deal with one of those. Do you earnestly believe that there’s even an iota of a chance that the meta won’t change in a meaningful capacity with Cinderace present? We “simply can’t know” if Cinderace will change the meta in the same way that I “simply can’t know” if something will hit the ground when I drop it—there’s technically a tiny, infinitesimal chance that the atomic makeup of both the ground and the object will align in a way that makes it phase right through the ground, but that chance is so unimaginably small that it can safely be disregarded.

 

[Karxrida]

Oh don’t even start with this shit. Court Change provides immense relief against two of the strongest archetypes in the game right now—hazard stacking with Gholdengo and Grimmsnarl Screens—at the same time, and Cinderace is infinitely more viable than anything else that can even deal with one of those. Do you earnestly believe that there’s even an iota of a chance that the meta won’t change in a meaningful capacity with Cinderace present? We “simply can’t know” if Cinderace will change the meta in the same way that I “simply can’t know” if something will hit the ground when I drop it—there’s technically a tiny, infinitesimal chance that the atomic makeup of both the ground and the object will align in a way that makes it phase right through the ground, but that chance is so unimaginably small that it can safely be disregarded.

The point they were trying to make is that the meta has a lot of moving parts and practice does not always translate into paper. Maybe something might pop up that stifles Cinderace's ability to thrive. Maybe the Protean/Libero nerf is more impactful than we suspect. Maybe Court Change does turn out to be a gimmick (especially since it invites Great Tusk in) and Cinderace wants that fourth moveslot for coverage.

Do we know what Cinderace does? Yeah, but we also have new Pokémon like Great Tusk and Glimmora that can screw with it. (Probably. It is very late and I don't feel like running calcs.)

 

[Arissi]

These threads are stupid, no one is going to read 178 pages of this stuff.

People should be allowed to make individual threads under the category of "SV OU Discussion" instead of whatever this clusterfuck is.

 

[Karxrida]

these threads are stupid, no one is going to read 178 pages of this stuff

Good thing we're only at 177 pages, then.

Also you'd be amazed what insomnia does to a person.

Edit: God fucking dammit this is the first post of page 178.

It's over, guys. Time to pack up the thread.

 

[Arissi]

Good thing we're only at 177 pages, then.

Also you'd be amazed what insomnia does to a person.

Edit: God fucking dammit this is the first post of page 178.

It's over, guys. Time to pack up the thread.

what an absolute kekker

 

[Talpr0ne]

Oh don’t even start with this shit. Court Change provides immense relief against two of the strongest archetypes in the game right now—hazard stacking with Gholdengo and Grimmsnarl Screens—at the same time, and Cinderace is infinitely more viable than anything else that can even deal with one of those. Do you earnestly believe that there’s even an iota of a chance that the meta won’t change in a meaningful capacity with Cinderace present? We “simply can’t know” if Cinderace will change the meta in the same way that I “simply can’t know” if something will hit the ground when I drop it—there’s technically a tiny, infinitesimal chance that the atomic makeup of both the ground and the object will align in a way that makes it phase right through the ground, but that chance is so unimaginably small that it can safely be disregarded.

I really doubt that Court Change will be the anti-Gholdengo silver bullet that has been made out to be, for the very simple reason it doesn't actually remove hazards but merely swaps them. This means that if Cinderace is the only form of hazard control in your team, you need to make sure their hazard setter is dead before setting up your own hazards, or you are ending up with at best having less hazards than them, but with no way to get rid of them at all, which is far from ideal. Killing their setter first isn't always feasible if they are using a more durable one like Ting-Lu or Garchomp (both of which directly beat Cinderace). Now it can occasionally net great reward especially against teams that use lead Glimmora but in the long run it's clunkier and less reliable than just spinning with a Paradox Donphan and clicking Knock Off on the telegraphed spinblock. It is more effective against screens because it's not a thing both teams will have. I guess you could build without using hazards at all and relying on Cinderace to Court Change them but this sounds fringe at best and they can just place them again putting you at square one. This is without touching on the fact that using Court Change on Cinderace's first turn will leave it stuck as a Normal type until it switches out.

There is a reason why Court Change in gen 8 never caught on, with Cinderace being considered mid at best before Libero, when CC was its main/only niche, and CC effectively disappearing from its movesets after Libero was released.

 

[Athyestic]

These threads are stupid, no one is going to read 178 pages of this stuff.

People should be allowed to make individual threads under the category of "SV OU Discussion" instead of whatever this clusterfuck is.

Hey so uh, as someone who uses the Hypixel Forums somewhat often (which follows that system) I actually think this is better??? Like it just feels more organized, you don’t have to worry about bumping threads, low quality posts feel less shamed, and server events will be much more manageable this way.

 

[Red Raven]

These threads are stupid, no one is going to read 178 pages of this stuff.

People should be allowed to make individual threads under the category of "SV OU Discussion" instead of whatever this clusterfuck is.

Nobody's telling you to read all 178 pages either so stop whining. Most, if not all of us here agree that this system is more organized so we're keeping it. Also, I don't think you're realizing that if you want that 'individual threads' then sooner or later, there would be hundreds of individual threads and when that number gets out of hand, even we regular users will get confused af

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I really doubt that Court Change will be the anti-Gholdengo silver bullet that has been made out to be, for the very simple reason it doesn't actually remove hazards but merely swaps them. This means that if Cinderace is the only form of hazard control in your team, you need to make sure their hazard setter is dead before setting up your own hazards, or you are ending up with at best having less hazards than them, but with no way to get rid of them at all, which is far from ideal. Killing their setter first isn't always feasible if they are using a more durable one like Ting-Lu or Garchomp (both of which directly beat Cinderace). Now it can occasionally net great reward especially against teams that use lead Glimmora but in the long run it's clunkier and less reliable than just spinning with a Paradox Donphan and clicking Knock Off on the telegraphed spinblock. It is more effective against screens because it's not a thing both teams will have. I guess you could build without using hazards at all and relying on Cinderace to Court Change them but this sounds fringe at best and they can just place them again putting you at square one. This is without touching on the fact that using Court Change on Cinderace's first turn will leave it stuck as a Normal type until it switches out.

There is a reason why Court Change in gen 8 never caught on, with Cinderace being considered mid at best before Libero, when CC was its main/only niche, and CC effectively disappearing from its movesets after Libero was released.

There's going to be spelling errors cus im on phone rn but...what LOL? Ok lets work backwards here since I need to start with the gen 8 ace to gen 9 ace comparison since its simplest to debunk.

In gen 8 hazards dont mean shit, its regen + hdb + tp(allows free defogs) spam on every team so court change never was even needed on 99% of teams because quite frankly in gen 8 you can ignore the hazard play altogether lol. In addition, the broken ace sets could not afford to waste a slot on a utility move anyways so your just straight saying shit lmao the move itself is not bad the circumstance of the gen 8 meta made the move not useful aside from niche cases. However in gen 9 it is a substantially different story.

As for the "court change isn't propper hazard control" it literally is, like the opponent is inclined not to sr or spike or both because of that option, especially since getting off hazards in the first place is super difficult. Glimmora/chomp gholdengo stack teams WILL have to change up their strats because getting all those 2-4 turns wasted and then those turns being turned against you with little options (since hdb spam is not feasible due to power creep) is game changing. It swaps the hazards but literally all you have to do is not set up hazards on the opposing side. At WORST after a court change they spin them off which gives you a turn of momentum, or they decide to try to get hazards back up which gives momentum to you too. In this gen it is insanely easy to get large punishes given an oppurrunity due to lack of defensive flying types and power creep, there is almost 0 way court change isn't meta changing and I'd argue its better than defog and spin as hazard control due to the volatality of hazards in gen 9.