Ditto. Haven't seen anyone mention that the little shit isn't broken
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Ditto. Haven't seen anyone mention that the little shit isn't broken
Chi-Yu being on radar makes a lot of sense due to its offensive prowess. It doesn't need to tera in order 2HKO-OHKO most walls. With sun, it becomes a serious threat for stall that requires specific sets on walls in order to do anything back; use scarf over specs and it becomes a ridiculous threat for balance to deal with. What makes this threat so ridiculous for me is just the fact that barely anything needs to be done with its sets in order to put in massive amounts of work against a whole team style. Also, the fact that Chi-yu can blow past fire resists (not immunities of course) with fire attacks is insane.
Hell, im arguably both, and i still agree fish has to go
I love me some kickass wallbreakers, but 6-0 whole ass teams, even shit that can try to stop it? Gotta lack all common sense to want to keep it.
Would someone mind elaborating on the issue with garg? I'm pretty low-elo and haven't seen it much at all recently so I assume its something that just requires a high enough skill floor that I'm not seeing it? or maybe I drink so much water the poor things just dissolve whenever I queue for a game.
I'm pretty sure it comes to status immune, Take 1/2 from Ghosts types, with Tera can easily thwart obvious weaknesses. Rock Salt is nutty because of the chip damage it can sprinkle throughout the match especially on Water/Steel types. It has recovery for obvious tanking, Body press sets to just crush through non-Ghosts. It has other sets that can cause all kind of nasty damage, and some have resorted to covert cloak to "Counter" Rock salt.
I don't think it's broken, but I can understand why it's suspect for testing. I think if certain suspects get QB you'll see more of it more than likely. I just hope that doesn't push it into the possibility of becoming ban worthy. Time will tell.
As unideal as complex bans are, I do think the best course of action to deal with Cyclizar would be to give one specifically for the combination of Regenerator and Shed Tail. It’s a very unique case of the move being fine by itself (as seen by Orthworm) and the ability being fine by itself (as seen by countless Regenerator users over the years) alongside the Pokemon being clearly just OK without this combo. Without the Regen + Shed Tail combination, future Cyclizar would probably be hanging out somewhere in Rarely Used or Never Used. It would have to choose its ability wisely, running either the superior Regenerator with a utility set featuring Rapid Spin, Knock Off, and other utility moves, with the possibility of using an offensive Band set that takes advantage of its serviceable Attack, impressive Speed, and survivability through its ability; or Shed Skin, which might be a viable option despite being a much worse ability in order to use a dedicated Shed Tail set that would allow Cyclizar to be able to pass one or two fast and reliable substitutes on its support set alongside its hazard support and item removal. It is very obviously not broken without that combination; thus, I believe that the combination of Regen + Shed Tail should be banned, similarly to how Ingrain + Baton Pass was banned some years ago in ADV or how Swift Swim + Drizzle / Chlorophyll + Drought was banned in BW OU. I understand that complex bans are a slippery slope, but it would be an exceptional ban for exceptional circumstances, and nothing more
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In the name of everyone in the metagame, i express thank you for putting garga in the radar, pls ban it forever
Please do not cite the mistake that is BW OU as an inspiration for anything. It's still causing headaches over a decade later.
Just ban Cyclizar when it's clearly the problem here. It is the only Pokémon with the Regenerator + Shed Tail combination plus it has high Speed and other utility options to abuse it.
Additionally, the council elected to boot Houndstone instead of Last Respects, so good luck trying to convince them to implement a complex ban in this situation. I still disagree with that ban, especially since T-tar isn't super great and other weather has become more prominent since then to contest Houndstone's sand, but whatever.
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It's just a mon that is far more than the sum of its parts. Thanks to its status immunity, legendary-caliber defensive spread, access to reliable recovery, and the ability to heavy punish mons that want to stay in, it's more than usable even in matches where you don't want to tera it. And when you do? It's completely capable of murdering things by itself! As a result, it's a very good choice for a free slot on your team, regardless of whether or not you plan to tera it. Just the threat changes how other players need to react to your team.
Even still, it's not really a broken mon. Not like anything that's been quickbanned, or is likely to be quickbanned in the upcoming weeks. It's just an unusually strong one, with an even more unusual stat distribution. And it's been a long time since there's been anything quite like it.
I’d love to. So as a person who’s gotten reqs and played 100s of games with Garganacl with Tera, it probably deserves a ban. I think Nacl by itself without Tera is probably a solid OU Pokémon maybe lower echelon OU. When you give it the best defensive type in the game IMO (Fairy), it’s hard to take down especially that it cannot get statused which it’s biggest positive. It has solid spread of stats, very good defense and HP. It also takes 1/2 from Ghost moves while having Salt Cure which is an exclusive move that can do 25% damage on Steel and Water types per turn and 12.5% damage each turn for everything else. Combine all of that and you have one of the best walls in the history of the game, it’s very hard to beat. That’s why I do think it’s worthy of a suspect test probably not quick ban.
For those that liked the Tera Type Index, I will be making an official thread that covers more info and more Pokemon based off of my initial post in the next few days. Stay tuned for that official SV OU resource.
As someone who has been stalling from the start of SV and exclusively since gen6, I can say with full confidence that this meta isn't favourable at all to stall and I don't honestly see how anyone could think that. Stall lost all cleric moves, meaning that an unlucky status that was one heal hell/aroma away is now lasting all game, lost status moves like toxic to help wear down the opponent and all recovery moves barring wish having PP halved, its in a horrible place. This doesn't even include the top tier offensive threats like Chi-Yu using Tera to get an additional power boost to make sure specs is basically impossible to safely switch into or using Tera Blast to hit you with a super effective attack on a type it doesn't normally have to KO you from an otherwise impossible range.
In terms of Ape, I think the reason why some people think its not as broken as it is, is due to the prevalence of offensive teams which are by far the best style in the meta currently. From a defensive standpoint though, its almost unwinnable, I'd only attribute so many of my wins against teams with it by virtue of them just playing the mon wrong. Let's be honest here, the only solid defensive option for these teams against Ape is Dondozo and even that can be overwhelmed pretty easily depending on Tera/Good play. Every other defensive mon, unaware or not just seems to crumple which isn't a surprise when its coming from a 350bp move + stab at max hits (For reference, Last Respects did 300 max) or just building up from 150 onwards.
Remember that switching doesn't reset Rage Fist so Ape can easily switch into stray hits and build power healing off most of that damage with lefties + recovery from drain punch as you essentially have to go hard Dondozo while using more defensive teams. This doesn't even take into account Pawmot since Revival Blessing revives Ape and Rage Fist doesn't reset on KO or Hatterene which can use Healing Wish, and in conjunction with these teammates, unless you get lucky with crits or outplay like a god its essentially a wrap, definitely one of the main three mons I want QB'd, along with Chi-Yu for its insane firepower (literally) and Ghold for what feels like its presence warping the metagame in an unhealthy way.
In terms of Ape, I think the reason why some people think its not as broken as it is, is due to the prevalence of offensive teams which are by far the best style in the meta currently. From a defensive standpoint though, its almost unwinnable, I'd only attribute so many of my wins against teams with it by virtue of them just playing the mon wrong. Let's be honest here, the only solid defensive option for these teams against Ape is Dondozo and even that can be overwhelmed pretty easily depending on Tera/Good play. Every other defensive mon, unaware or not just seems to crumple which isn't a surprise when its coming from a 350bp move + stab at max hits (For reference, Last Respects did 300 max) or just building up from 150 onwards.
Remember that switching doesn't reset Rage Fist so Ape can easily switch into stray hits and build power healing off most of that damage with lefties + recovery from drain punch as you essentially have to go hard Dondozo while using more defensive teams. This doesn't even take into account Pawmot since Revival Blessing revives Ape and Rage Fist doesn't reset on KO or Hatterene which can use Healing Wish, and in conjunction with these teammates, unless you get lucky with crits or outplay like a god its essentially a wrap, definitely one of the main three mons I want QB'd, along with Chi-Yu for its insane firepower (literally) and Ghold for what feels like its presence warping the metagame in an unhealthy way.
I personally intend to vote ban on Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Cyclizar.
offers an offensive premium that is fat past acceptable or containable levels in OU. It's pool of counterplay is far too limited and it warps the tier because of this (either in-game due to not being sufficiently ready or in-builder due to being limited in what you can use for it too much).
is a more interesting case, but Taunt+BU variants cross the line for me. You can force walls into attacking you or walking a very thin tight-rope to pivot in a faster threat without allowing too many free chances pretty much, making the balance/bulky match-up absolutely dire. Yes, new things like RH Chomp + Salt Cure Tera-Garganacl cores can help mitigate it a bit, but the pool of consistent answers is very limited and generally you need half your team + good timing to minimize it. Offensive teams contain it better, but even they have to watch out for timely Tera letting it escape trouble and do even more damage with Rage Fist. I find very few games where Annihilape struggles and very many games where it forces opponents into an awkward spot, threatening to sweep or claim multiple kills (or just generally large amounts of progress).
I find to be the catalyst of a lot of worrisome strategies, abusing any passivity with a virtually unchecked free-turn for some of our premier offensive breakers and set-up sweepers. I think this one is a tougher case and I understand why it got a lot, but not quite enough, votes the last few times. I remain mostly firm in my stance just because it punishes any free turns or defensive play way too much for the metagame to remain balanced with the tools it can pass to. I can expand on this one more later as it deserves the most examination of the three, but definitely a problem in my eyes.
Others I can see cases for and I am not 100% voting no ban on yet, but I am leaning that way and can post more on later perhaps.
What are you thoughts on Garg? While not as oppressive as Ape, it has a similar “You have to make the right move or you’re taking chip on 3 Pokémon”
It’s funny you ask this; after a lot of internal deliberation, I actually elected to vote ban on Garganacl. Initially I was only going to on Chi-Yu, Annihilape, and Cyclizar, but I added it later. I still think this is more of a formality than anything as I highly doubt Garganacl gets support right now, but it’s higher on my personal radar than most and I feel it warps the metagame a fair amount.
Initially I found the Iron Defense set to be overbearing with Salte Cure chipping through a lot of would-be responses, but then I adapted and found it was a bit less linear and counterplay existed through some more creative means. However, I then also tried the more consistent, Stealth Rock variant with SR/Protect/SaltCure/Recover and found this to be sneakily challenging to deal with unless you’re able to afford incurring massive losses in momentum and have a very durable squad or you have a highly specific offensive plan of attack and pressure. Overall, both sets are awesome and kind of compliment each other.
It is clear you can break through Garganacl, even if it changes typings or boosts defense, but doing so comfortably is a great challenge that really limits you in the teambuilder. I don’t love how the pool of potential checks and counters is dwindled like the most pressing offensive Pokemon, but it gets overlooked because of its nature and pacing as imo it’s as metagame defining as anything aside from a small handful of others.
I do not think Garganacl gets quickbanned, but I think people should take a long, hard look into it and how you interact with it regularly when building and even playing. It’s not ideal and I could see a suspect as being appropriate eventually if more support is gained.
Thanks for the in depth response! I agree it’s probably not quite bannable yet, but I will be curious to see how it’s position in the meta changes after this next round of votes (if at all).
Note only one of these is not a Gen 9 debut, smh GameFreak
As someone who's tested Garg alot, my four takes are that
1. Against most good teams, you pretty much need to Tera Garg to do more than just Salt Cure (which can be played around) and switch out / give up momentum to your opponent. Since Rock typing opens it to so many powerful special attacks.
2. Fairy Garg is concerned about Make It Rain, Rain abusers, and Sun abusers, while Water Garg is concerned about Flower Trick & enough special Grass and Electric users that essentially 2hko it.
3. Garg is slow, doesn't have immediate damage, and arguably dependent on leftovers, which makes it much weaker to hazards and trick/knock, than something like Ape for example which can run alot of speed and still be extremely good.
4. Covert Cloak is not a bad item lol.
Garg is a great mon for sure, just my argument is that really does need certain teammates to make up for its list of checks, and it needs this support more than other defense-breaking threats in the meta.
additional note: Hatterene beats Garg 1v1, for those who weren't aware
1. Against most good teams, you pretty much need to Tera Garg to do more than just Salt Cure (which can be played around) and switch out / give up momentum to your opponent. Since Rock typing opens it to so many powerful special attacks.
2. Fairy Garg is concerned about Make It Rain, Rain abusers, and Sun abusers, while Water Garg is concerned about Flower Trick & enough special Grass and Electric users that essentially 2hko it.
3. Garg is slow, doesn't have immediate damage, and arguably dependent on leftovers, which makes it much weaker to hazards and trick/knock, than something like Ape for example which can run alot of speed and still be extremely good.
4. Covert Cloak is not a bad item lol.
Garg is a great mon for sure, just my argument is that really does need certain teammates to make up for its list of checks, and it needs this support more than other defense-breaking threats in the meta.
additional note: Hatterene beats Garg 1v1, for those who weren't aware
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Espathra on the radar is a little bit of a head-scratcher to me. Obviously there’s no harm in putting something on the radar and discussing Pokemon, but it’s surprising that it is on the radar when some of the premier threats of OU (ie Dragapult, Volcarona, Roaring Moon) are left out.
Usage ≠ Strength, but there if a Pokemon is UU there’s probably reasons why it isn’t broken. I’ll list my reasons for why I think Espathra is not nearly strong enough to be banned.
Usage ≠ Strength, but there if a Pokemon is UU there’s probably reasons why it isn’t broken. I’ll list my reasons for why I think Espathra is not nearly strong enough to be banned.
- Psychic type is really bad. Offensively, it gets completely shut down by the many dark types in the tier. Defensively, it takes super effective damage from Gholdengo, Dragapult, Chien-Pao, and most other top threats. These weaknesses can be offset by Tera, but…
- Committing to using Tera to one Pokemon every game is extremely limiting in both the builder and in-game. We talk about the “Tera 50/50s” but when Esapathra is on the opponents team you know that none of the other Pokemon are going to Tera (and if they do, it’s probably bad for them).
- Espathra takes a while to get going. Usually you need 2+ CMs before putting in work, and if you don’t get those the damage output is pathetic. Compare this to other setup sweepers like DNite, Roaring Moon, and Volcarona where they can still put in work even before boosting.
- To compensate for this, Espathra needs a lot of support. It’s fairly easy to provide support in this game with Grimm + Cyclizar, but team slots aren’t free and the opponent doesn’t stand still. With Cyclizar on the radar as well, this does not bode well.
- Espathra has a lot of common answers. Ting Lu can switch in and phase it out; Skelridge can torch song and outboost it or phase it out; Dragapult can put in work even after multiple speed boosts; strong priority can help to beat it; tricking a choice scarf can cripple it; hazards can chip away; status really hurts it, and on and on.
- Even if you don’t have an answer, I have a really tough time buying that a <5% usage Pokemon has a restricting effect on teambuilding. If you don’t have an answer for Espathra, that’s fine because 95% of your opponents don’t have Espathra. Compare that to the other Pokemon on the radar…
Oh boy time to write opinions nobody´s gonna read, with tera gone is time to do what we can to get this tier from extremly offensive and chaotic to less offensive and chaotic
Ban even with tera gone Chi Yu needs to get the boot
No Ban, No suspect, I think the M O N K E is fine, sure, he has like 3 sets, but none of them are unbeatable, and even with tera change, you can still lure him or use your own tera, Rage Fist is crazy, but you can stall it out
No Ban, No suspect, even with his multiple cheat codes his special defense is exploitable, and you can take him out quickly most of the times before it becomes too much
No Ban, No suspect, Gholdengo is frustrating and his precesence alone has made Corviknight go from splashable to specific, and he hits like a fucking truck, but outside of that, its not really a problem, unironically stop using body press and u turn on corviknight, go with Bulk up and Power trip,
No Ban, Yes suspect, Okay, lets be real, DDnite is kind of a problem here, its basically baby E-Killer Arceus with a move to spare, either with pure offensive spread, bulky support, trapping, its kinda hard to take down, what i normally do to deal with him is sack a pokemon to get him out of multiscale and then basically wipe my ass with it with priority of my own (shoutouts to 
), or just hope he gets greedy and dies anyways
No Ban, Yes suspect, ill be real, if i get swept by the turkey, its probably my own fault, and its literally as easy to read as a kids book, but i do get that its kind of a problem
? more like C H I E N P O O, BAN
Ban, or at the very least suspect, Shit tail is a dumb move, that makes some of these get out of control, i am a bit biased since the sub spam makes 
Hyper Voice so easy to spam, but yeah, also people are starting to take libertys with it, because you expect to instantly shed tail, but then bam, double edge or draco meteor
Ban even with tera gone Chi Yu needs to get the boot No Ban, No suspect, I think the M O N K E is fine, sure, he has like 3 sets, but none of them are unbeatable, and even with tera change, you can still lure him or use your own tera, Rage Fist is crazy, but you can stall it out No Ban, No suspect, even with his multiple cheat codes his special defense is exploitable, and you can take him out quickly most of the times before it becomes too much No Ban, No suspect, Gholdengo is frustrating and his precesence alone has made Corviknight go from splashable to specific, and he hits like a fucking truck, but outside of that, its not really a problem, unironically stop using body press and u turn on corviknight, go with Bulk up and Power trip, No Ban, Yes suspect, Okay, lets be real, DDnite is kind of a problem here, its basically baby E-Killer Arceus with a move to spare, either with pure offensive spread, bulky support, trapping, its kinda hard to take down, what i normally do to deal with him is sack a pokemon to get him out of multiscale and then basically wipe my ass with it with priority of my own (shoutouts to ), or just hope he gets greedy and dies anyways No Ban, Yes suspect, ill be real, if i get swept by the turkey, its probably my own fault, and its literally as easy to read as a kids book, but i do get that its kind of a problem ? more like C H I E N P O O, BAN Ban, or at the very least suspect, Shit tail is a dumb move, that makes some of these get out of control, i am a bit biased since the sub spam makes Hyper Voice so easy to spam, but yeah, also people are starting to take libertys with it, because you expect to instantly shed tail, but then bam, double edge or draco meteor
Umm...hate to break it to ya but Ape gets taunt.
Mechanically, i'd say that it's due to the fact that it 's basically a Moody mon in disguise. Like you pointed out, it's not really a very good Pokémon, offensively or defensively. No one is really interested in using Espathra for fair reasons in OU, and the unfair set is far too strong for UU. As a result, if you're seeing it at all, it's almost certainly a cheese set - and not in the Gholdengo sense, either.
Sure, if you lose to it, it's probably your fault. But, way more than most things people have complained about this tier, it's not only one-note, but a particularly unfun one-note at that. Fun shouldn't be the sole reason to ban something, but.. is there ever a world where Espathra makes the meta better? More interesting? Healthier?
If the answer to all of those is no, then I think it's at least worth a suspect. Because boy, is it an obnoxious thing to lose to.
I've been using Garg a ton as well. It's arguably my favorite Pokemon to come from Gen 9 and has been on almost all my teams that could fit it. If I'm being honest, I really don't see that much of a difference between it and prior-generation Toxapex. That explains why people dislike it so much and why it's on the radar, but also why I don't think it's actually broken. Let me outline my thinking with similarities I've noticed while using it:
Is it annoying? Yeah. Is it really, really good? Absolutely. Is it broken? I don't think so.
Am I a mouth for Big Stall? You bet your butt I am. I represent the semi-stall branch.
- Bulk, the most obvious similarity:
- Garg 100/130/90
- Pex 50/152/142
- Status Resilience:
- Garg is immune to all status
- Pex is immune to the only important one to it: Toxic/Poison. Burns and Para do have an impact, but not as much as Toxic would when it comes to taking an actual KO, so this is very similar in my mind. Even burn chip is negligible on something with both Regen and Recover.
- Annoying moves that inflict semi-permanent damage/effects:
- Garg has Salt Cure
- Pex had Scald (similar to Salt Cure in overall effect and impact) and Knock Off. Yeah, doesn't have them anymore, but I'm comparing past Pex to current Garg here.
- Reliable non-item recovery:
- Garg with Recover
- Pex with Recover and Regenerator
- Hazard Setting
- Garg with Rocks
- Pex with TSpikes
- Excellent Resistances
- Garg: innate Ghost resist + "Rock" resistances temporarily + [Tera Type]'s resistances
- Pex: Water/Poison is incredible and kept lots of things down. Volc, Keldeo, etc. to just name 2 quickly
- [Potential] Setup-Interruption
- Garg could set up alongside you if it's the ID/BP set
- Pex just Hazes you
- Knock Off bait: both love their items, but also very frequently get them Knocked Off in my experience
- Trick Bait: similar to above, and even more severely crippling
Is it annoying? Yeah. Is it really, really good? Absolutely. Is it broken? I don't think so.
Am I a mouth for Big Stall? You bet your butt I am. I represent the semi-stall branch.
- Psychic isn't really that bad of typing I don't think, but Stored Power basically nullifies resistances anyways.
- There's plenty of Pokemon in the metagame and even On The Radar that you're more or less commiting to using Tera with. Garganacle for sure, Dragonite to a less extent, not on the radar stuff like Skeledirge. I would say most teams have a pokemon they Tera an overwhelming majority of the time.
- Even if you need to commit to Espathra moreso than other mons, that doesn't make the mon and those strategies any less uncompetetive. Facilitating Espathra with psychic terrain, shed tail and screens warps counterplay. While there's more opportunity cost using that way, it becomes a guessing game when building in terms of which Espathra strategy you're going to prepare for because trying to handle them all is incredibly constraining.
- Ting Lu only delays Espathra, Skeledirge realistically has to be spdef to beat it, not sure where Dragapult comes into play here lol. It is susceptible to priorty but Tera Fairy/Fighting invalidates most common forms of priorty outside of Dragonite ESpeed and the damage from even Tera normal is decent at best. Even Spdef Gholdengo's can have trouble keeping pace with Tera fighting versions. It's suspectible to trick and encore and such, but if your Dark type has died or Tera'd, you can very well just lose to it anyways.
- I really don't think usage statistics are super insightful at such an early stage in the metagame. The viability rankings show Espathra is generally considered a much stronger force than many mons that receive more usage than it. Imo, it's also like moody, areana trap diglett/trapnich etc. It doesn't have to be completely dominant in order to be uncompetetive. Much like how Finch described Cyclizar, any free turns can easily be turned in free wins at the rate this thing snowballs, invalidates counterplay with Tera, and has different answers for it's various different sets.
- Status