I did max hp/max spa, I feel like the spa is sort of needed to break through things like pex and get the most of your subs
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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If you look at what Shed Tail does in general, you'll see that it really is the major issue. Shed Tail is literally a shortcutted Sub + Baton Pass that doesn't pass stats. That alone is what is enabling major things like "free" passing to Ape, Espathra, etc. to set up. Orth is a good tank without Shed Tail, and Cyc is a good utility mon without Shed Tail.
I don't explain shit very well, but as I said, PokeAimMD and Emvee talked about it in their video this morning. They do a better job explaining it than I do, and I share the same opinions as them on the topic.
My set was like... 252 SpAtk / 220 HP / 36 SpDef on Lv100, 196 HP / 60 SpDef on Lv50. This gives you max SpAtk, 101/51 HP Subs, and extra bulk. Mine's also Sub 3 attacks, so that's something to consider too.
Again I’m not disagreeing with you that it should be tested and likely banned. The way it warps game states by simply existing is a issue, even with offensive or bulky offensive teams, you have to be very disciplined in your moves, less you give ape free rage boost that will bite you in the ass later. That’s worthy of testing regardless of what it does to stall.
Stall seems to forecast as bad for the next 6 months minimum (maybe some alolan muk utility or Tera Cress tech give it’s it something worth running) if stall isn’t viable, is completely beating stall a bannable offense as it’s been in the past ?
Alright, time for my objectively correct opinions on the Radar mons.
Quick Ban- Ah, Cheese-Yu aka Cheap-Yu aka Cheat-Yu... This is Vish level of broken and I will be very confused if our beloved OU council make us waste 2 weeks for this to be gone via suspect test. There is no pro-Chi argument. Any weakness this mon has is completely overshadowed by its strengths. This Fire mon barely cares about SR, has no safe switch ins, and simply exists to carry low skill players to 1800 where they can go "lol u suck". It's pointless to try and build around this mon and pointless to suspect.
Suspect- I would vote No Ban, but I feel like the community deserves a definitive answer. For once, I feel bad for Stall players. Not only Stall, but Semi-Stall and Fat Balance. Any slow balance loses 100% to rest variants. I was running healing wish Hatt with fast Taunt ape and I literally never lost to the aforementioned teams. Now, I don't know if that's their fault in the builder, or if I just played well with it, but it's not fair for a mon to invalidate playstyles. Not just a good matchup, I mean literally invalidates these team archetypes. However, I'm not 100% sure it does invalidate, just parroting the pro-ban argument. With that said, this thing has answers, plenty of answers, actually, and usually has to Terra. Without Terra, this mon becomes quite easy to revenge kill. Imo, any mon that has to Terra to be great isn't amazing.
Skeledirge is a prime example of this, and why you're seeing less and less of it. You basically have to Terra it for it to reach it's true potential, and sometimes it just sits there. That's why you're seeing more lead apes and scarf apes, since they don't have to Terra to do something every game. Mons that have to Terra to be great can be very inconsistent. I think this mon would pass a suspect, but wouldn't hurt to appease the community, especially those who like to play with slower, fatter teams.
No suspect- This thing is amazing lmao. But I don't see many players saying it's OP. Just a nice mon, who, again, has to Terra to be amazing. That being said, the Gaganpex core is rising fast, and this could be a problem... months and months down the road. Only time will tell if this mon needs a suspect. The meta needs to settle, (lol as if that will happen in 2023) and right now there's a lot more to worry about than this big boy. We need good defensive cores right now to stop the meta becoming silly.
No Suspect - This mon actually has a lot of answers, and is might be one of the most predictable mons of all time. As in, you get in Corv to fog, this thing is 1000% coming in on that fog. U can play around that and steal momentum. Now, to steal momentum u need a boots mon, seeing as there will be 1-3 spikes and SR up lol.. Tbh I think a lot of players issue with Gold is a skill issue, sorry to say. Is it meta defining, sure. Is it OP? Not really. It just fits on a lot of teams, and does it's job really well. Also, any pro-Terra player needs to stfu about this mon lol. As Good as Gold does warp the meta into something new that we need to adapt to, so like, let that bake in the oven of your mind and compare that concept to Terra.
However, as someone who uses Terra Flying Covert Cloak with recover and NP, it's another mon that crushes Stall/Semi-Stall. There are reasonable pro-ban arguments, but nothing that holds much weight besides, "it's annoying". If a suspect happened to stop some players from crying, then whatever, but it would be a waste of time.
Also, I would personally miss this mon, as it's fun to use and build with. The meta might be healthier without it, but you can say that about a lot of mons in a lot of metas.
As a side note, if we didn't have HDB, then this mon is 100% broken.
No Suspect- This mon needs to stay, simply because it fills a nice role outside of the cheese speed set. I'm in love with RH nite rn. But anyway, yes, the speed cheese set almost invalidates offense. You kinda need a dedicated answer to E-Cheese set. Which, I don't like having to need a dedicated answer to a mon, but after dealing with band Mel in gen 8, I don't think the community feels the same way as I do lol. This is a lesser example. Offensive teams may need to alter their builds to manage this mon, but that's just how it is man. You either need insane pressure, or a dedicated Ghost Terra or something, as an offense player. As an offensive player myself, I realize why this mon is on the Radar, but step up your building is my solution to it.
Quick Ban- I know it won't be, but who would really cry if it was? All this thing does is MU fish and restrict builder. More so than any other mon on this list, you need a dedicated answer or you auto-lose. Dedicated answers to E-Cheese Nite, Gold, Gargan, etc are also soft checks to other mons and aren't dead weight when the opp doesn't have the mon you prepped for. Also, thanks to (redacted) pro-Terra (redacted) you don't know if this birb is Fairy or Fighting. This mon adds nothing healthy to the tier, and is quite literally the definition of skill-less cheese. Suspect if we must, but I'm tired of restricting the builder so I don't auto lose to this goofy ass mon. It sounds like I lose to this mon 20 times a day, but I really don't. I've lost maybe twice this week in the 1800's to it but it's just the principle of the thing. Could we adapt, yeah whatever. It's not like insane or anything; I just personally don't use it anymore because it feels like Mage in gen 8. It takes 1- maybe 2 turns of set up and it's not even fun when you sweep.
No Suspect- This monster is a beast, and this beast is a monster, but we need dedicated, hard hitting, wall-breakers in a meta. This mon has answers, and in fact, can be taken advantage of just like any other choice-locked mon. SD is handled by the many unaware walls we have, or by Terra your defensive mons. It's pretty scary and oppressive, but not broken.
No Suspect- This mon is... v mid dude. It's literally dead weight in at least 50% of it's battles. No one really uses that screens+tail HO team for a reason anymore. Like, I get it, on paper shed tail is wild, but it has a lot of answers. Just attack into the sub lol... It's a nice support mon, but shed tail is kinda being exposed as a gimmick instead of some wildly free baton pass thing. Cycle is often a wasted slot, simple as.
Also, where do we stand on Revival Blessing? It seems kinda mid rn but I have seen it being abused, and I think the abuse will get worse as the meta develops. It was really annoying today to not only vs Rain, but Rain with 8 mons (ffs Rain players just literally l2p holy shit you MU fishing goofs aren't doing yourself any favors by LARPing as a good player, when I see a 1800 rain I know ur actually a 1400 in disguise lol)
Oh, also with Revival, peep this high IQ Pawmot set with Wish I made earlier this morning. Like I said, Revival has yet to reach it's full potential.
Anyway, feel free to reply and agree with my perfect opinions on these mons and the meta.
Quick Ban- Ah, Cheese-Yu aka Cheap-Yu aka Cheat-Yu... This is Vish level of broken and I will be very confused if our beloved OU council make us waste 2 weeks for this to be gone via suspect test. There is no pro-Chi argument. Any weakness this mon has is completely overshadowed by its strengths. This Fire mon barely cares about SR, has no safe switch ins, and simply exists to carry low skill players to 1800 where they can go "lol u suck". It's pointless to try and build around this mon and pointless to suspect. Suspect- I would vote No Ban, but I feel like the community deserves a definitive answer. For once, I feel bad for Stall players. Not only Stall, but Semi-Stall and Fat Balance. Any slow balance loses 100% to rest variants. I was running healing wish Hatt with fast Taunt ape and I literally never lost to the aforementioned teams. Now, I don't know if that's their fault in the builder, or if I just played well with it, but it's not fair for a mon to invalidate playstyles. Not just a good matchup, I mean literally invalidates these team archetypes. However, I'm not 100% sure it does invalidate, just parroting the pro-ban argument. With that said, this thing has answers, plenty of answers, actually, and usually has to Terra. Without Terra, this mon becomes quite easy to revenge kill. Imo, any mon that has to Terra to be great isn't amazing. Skeledirge is a prime example of this, and why you're seeing less and less of it. You basically have to Terra it for it to reach it's true potential, and sometimes it just sits there. That's why you're seeing more lead apes and scarf apes, since they don't have to Terra to do something every game. Mons that have to Terra to be great can be very inconsistent. I think this mon would pass a suspect, but wouldn't hurt to appease the community, especially those who like to play with slower, fatter teams.
No suspect- This thing is amazing lmao. But I don't see many players saying it's OP. Just a nice mon, who, again, has to Terra to be amazing. That being said, the Gaganpex core is rising fast, and this could be a problem... months and months down the road. Only time will tell if this mon needs a suspect. The meta needs to settle, (lol as if that will happen in 2023) and right now there's a lot more to worry about than this big boy. We need good defensive cores right now to stop the meta becoming silly. No Suspect - This mon actually has a lot of answers, and is might be one of the most predictable mons of all time. As in, you get in Corv to fog, this thing is 1000% coming in on that fog. U can play around that and steal momentum. Now, to steal momentum u need a boots mon, seeing as there will be 1-3 spikes and SR up lol.. Tbh I think a lot of players issue with Gold is a skill issue, sorry to say. Is it meta defining, sure. Is it OP? Not really. It just fits on a lot of teams, and does it's job really well. Also, any pro-Terra player needs to stfu about this mon lol. As Good as Gold does warp the meta into something new that we need to adapt to, so like, let that bake in the oven of your mind and compare that concept to Terra.However, as someone who uses Terra Flying Covert Cloak with recover and NP, it's another mon that crushes Stall/Semi-Stall. There are reasonable pro-ban arguments, but nothing that holds much weight besides, "it's annoying". If a suspect happened to stop some players from crying, then whatever, but it would be a waste of time.
Also, I would personally miss this mon, as it's fun to use and build with. The meta might be healthier without it, but you can say that about a lot of mons in a lot of metas.
As a side note, if we didn't have HDB, then this mon is 100% broken.
No Suspect- This mon needs to stay, simply because it fills a nice role outside of the cheese speed set. I'm in love with RH nite rn. But anyway, yes, the speed cheese set almost invalidates offense. You kinda need a dedicated answer to E-Cheese set. Which, I don't like having to need a dedicated answer to a mon, but after dealing with band Mel in gen 8, I don't think the community feels the same way as I do lol. This is a lesser example. Offensive teams may need to alter their builds to manage this mon, but that's just how it is man. You either need insane pressure, or a dedicated Ghost Terra or something, as an offense player. As an offensive player myself, I realize why this mon is on the Radar, but step up your building is my solution to it. Quick Ban- I know it won't be, but who would really cry if it was? All this thing does is MU fish and restrict builder. More so than any other mon on this list, you need a dedicated answer or you auto-lose. Dedicated answers to E-Cheese Nite, Gold, Gargan, etc are also soft checks to other mons and aren't dead weight when the opp doesn't have the mon you prepped for. Also, thanks to (redacted) pro-Terra (redacted) you don't know if this birb is Fairy or Fighting. This mon adds nothing healthy to the tier, and is quite literally the definition of skill-less cheese. Suspect if we must, but I'm tired of restricting the builder so I don't auto lose to this goofy ass mon. It sounds like I lose to this mon 20 times a day, but I really don't. I've lost maybe twice this week in the 1800's to it but it's just the principle of the thing. Could we adapt, yeah whatever. It's not like insane or anything; I just personally don't use it anymore because it feels like Mage in gen 8. It takes 1- maybe 2 turns of set up and it's not even fun when you sweep. No Suspect- This monster is a beast, and this beast is a monster, but we need dedicated, hard hitting, wall-breakers in a meta. This mon has answers, and in fact, can be taken advantage of just like any other choice-locked mon. SD is handled by the many unaware walls we have, or by Terra your defensive mons. It's pretty scary and oppressive, but not broken. No Suspect- This mon is... v mid dude. It's literally dead weight in at least 50% of it's battles. No one really uses that screens+tail HO team for a reason anymore. Like, I get it, on paper shed tail is wild, but it has a lot of answers. Just attack into the sub lol... It's a nice support mon, but shed tail is kinda being exposed as a gimmick instead of some wildly free baton pass thing. Cycle is often a wasted slot, simple as.Also, where do we stand on Revival Blessing? It seems kinda mid rn but I have seen it being abused, and I think the abuse will get worse as the meta develops. It was really annoying today to not only vs Rain, but Rain with 8 mons (ffs Rain players just literally l2p holy shit you MU fishing goofs aren't doing yourself any favors by LARPing as a good player, when I see a 1800 rain I know ur actually a 1400 in disguise lol)
Oh, also with Revival, peep this high IQ Pawmot set with Wish I made earlier this morning. Like I said, Revival has yet to reach it's full potential.
Anyway, feel free to reply and agree with my perfect opinions on these mons and the meta.
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Sure what you listed is true for the immunities but all on a single package with bonus immunites with some great stats, unpredictable sets, and one of the best typings in the game to go with them? Thats what tips it over the line. Its a single mon that accomplishes the job of multiple while still being a major threat and warping the entire meta around itself.
Also yes, using status moves to cripple the opponents team and using non directly damaging moves to achieve victory is a strategy no matter how rarely you may run into it. That isnt even accounting for mons that literally cant deal with the thing because its immune to 1/3 of the moves in the game
I could see Orthworm as problematic in the future if Cyclizar was banned but I would need to see hard evidence of that before supporting a Shed Tail ban. So far it has "disappointed" but maybe it's because it has to live up to Cyclizar. If Orthworm is not broken the net collateral damage is arguably greater from banning Shed Tail than from banning Cyclizar.
There is also a good precedent in banning both Pokémon even if they are both carried by the same ridiculous moves in SWSH UU banning both the Zolt fossils instead of banning Bolt Beak. It doesn't have to be followed to the letter necessarily but it shows that banning both Cyclizar and Orthworm or Houndstone and Basculegion is a legitimate option.
People talk about banning specific moves rather then the pokemon themselves and thats just a horrible option in most cases imo.
We shouldn't cherry pick pieces off a pokemon to keep it in the tier by virtue of banning moves on them that we feel is the breaking point/main culprit/whatever, that leads to what I feel is a slippery slope but also its not even correct in what I feel is a lot of cases.
Look at Dracovish for example. Those who survived the hell that was the vish meta know how overwhelming this monster was and we know that it was Fishious Rend that was claiming souls and being the only move clicked unless the opp packed a Seis in the back. People could easily have claimed like they are now that the move is an issue, due to it being 170bp with essentially no drawback if they switch or you outspeed and scarf was a very common set so it was outspeeding everything non choiced barring pult and zera. But as Artcovish showed, it was more a combination of traits even if Fishious Rend was the biggest offender, it wasn't something that was outright broken on everything that got it and its the same for the two mons on radar.
Ape has a great typing, Taunt to force attacks so even if you could status it, it got blocked from doing so, bulk up to make it even harder to kill both due to the damage it heals via a buffed drain punch and the defense buff it gets which means it tanks more hits for Rage Fist. Add a great stat distribution to that and you can see why its likely a combination of traits for why Ape is on the chopping block.
Same with Cyclizar. Look at the other Shed Tail user which is down in UU. There is a clear difference between them. Cyclizar has regen allowing it to constantly heal which in turn allows for infinite Shed Tails, whereas Orthworm is limited to two and has no recovery. Cyclizar also has knock off which is great utility in a metagame where HDB is so common due to the hazard stacking teams that are everywhere, rapid spin to clear said hazards and u-turn which means even if it got in via an allies uturn, if it didn't have enough HP for a Shed Tail it can just u-turn out and get another 33% back. Its a combination of these traits that I feel pose a problem.
Yes it is easy to look at various strong elements that ar. commonly associated with the mon and they may be bad without them, but that doesn't mean said move is the culprit and not the mon.
We shouldn't cherry pick pieces off a pokemon to keep it in the tier by virtue of banning moves on them that we feel is the breaking point/main culprit/whatever, that leads to what I feel is a slippery slope but also its not even correct in what I feel is a lot of cases.
Look at Dracovish for example. Those who survived the hell that was the vish meta know how overwhelming this monster was and we know that it was Fishious Rend that was claiming souls and being the only move clicked unless the opp packed a Seis in the back. People could easily have claimed like they are now that the move is an issue, due to it being 170bp with essentially no drawback if they switch or you outspeed and scarf was a very common set so it was outspeeding everything non choiced barring pult and zera. But as Artcovish showed, it was more a combination of traits even if Fishious Rend was the biggest offender, it wasn't something that was outright broken on everything that got it and its the same for the two mons on radar.
Ape has a great typing, Taunt to force attacks so even if you could status it, it got blocked from doing so, bulk up to make it even harder to kill both due to the damage it heals via a buffed drain punch and the defense buff it gets which means it tanks more hits for Rage Fist. Add a great stat distribution to that and you can see why its likely a combination of traits for why Ape is on the chopping block.
Same with Cyclizar. Look at the other Shed Tail user which is down in UU. There is a clear difference between them. Cyclizar has regen allowing it to constantly heal which in turn allows for infinite Shed Tails, whereas Orthworm is limited to two and has no recovery. Cyclizar also has knock off which is great utility in a metagame where HDB is so common due to the hazard stacking teams that are everywhere, rapid spin to clear said hazards and u-turn which means even if it got in via an allies uturn, if it didn't have enough HP for a Shed Tail it can just u-turn out and get another 33% back. Its a combination of these traits that I feel pose a problem.
Yes it is easy to look at various strong elements that ar. commonly associated with the mon and they may be bad without them, but that doesn't mean said move is the culprit and not the mon.
Also using the last respects vs houndstone debate isn't good because if last respects basculegion ends up just like SWSH DLC tapus, we would have banned a move that wouldn't actually exist on the other mon we banned it for. And also why are we debating this its been so long </3
how have you guys been liking cinderace recently? I just got back and I lost most of the early developments under the deluge of commentary of the suspect test.
how have you guys been liking cinderace recently? I just got back and I lost most of the early developments under the deluge of commentary of the suspect test.
Cyclizar is clearly the problem, and while it would be easier to just ban it, a complex ban would be better in this specific situation because it would allow Cyclizar to be used in a lower tier. As for why I think this is a good idea, it’s actually because the situation is occurring under a different circumstance from the BW OU complex ban (I more trying to highlight that this only happens in exceptional circumstances like this). Here’s why I think things are different: In the case of Rain+Drizzle, it was an incredibly broken combination that affected a great many Pokemon, so it made sense at the time. HOWEVER, no one considered that Drizzle would remain broken by itself at the time, as the metagame was too young to understand the ramifications of allowing Drizzle to continue affecting the metagame; as a result, this decision created a precedent that forced us to accommodate this broken element for years and years. This contrasts heavily with my proposed complex ban of Cyclizar, as it’s clear that neither Shed Tail nor Regenerator are broken by themselves; all that would happen if the combination gets banned is that Cyclizar fades from relevance, able to be used in a lower tier, which would be ideal. As for why Cyclizar in particular and not any other bans, well, it’s mostly because JUST the combination of Shed Tail + Regenerator is SO BROKEN that it’s about to send an otherwise mediocre Pokemon straight to Ubers. As you can probably guess, I’m also a supporter of Rage Fist and Last Respects being banned instead of the Pokemon themselves, as these moves are clearly the only broken element of the Pokemon they’re on; when almost all other Pokemon get banned, it’s because it’s due to their overall good traits being too much for the tier, but Gen 9 introduced a few Pokemon with only a single incredibly broken element that elevates them above and beyond, and they would be good additions to the lower tiers without those elements. I understand that it’s unlikely that my ideas will ever see the light of day, but I like having my opinion out there regardless. After all, metagame discussion is never a bad thing
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I dont really understand this reasoning. When you want to ban Chi-Yu but dont want to ban the same mon but physical. Like doesnt it 1-2 shot every pokemon in format with rocks/hazards up and have a far better speed tier?
Like its ok to have wallbreakers if they require at least some sort of setup, not just I have a choice band so I should sweep your entire team if my check is dead. Chi Yu just hits so hard and its obviously gonna get banned so this thing will take its place if its not banned in the same time.
I understand both of these, but I once again point to Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. Both are extremely uncompetitive to run into (and Magnet Pull falls under this too, but only hits Steels), but were originally just signatures of specific mons (Wob family and Dig family + Trapinch). Then we got Shadow Tag Gothitelle and Shadow Tag Mega Gengar -- Shadow Tag got complex banned which let Wob's family come out of jail and became bottom tier trash. Mega Gengar was banned because it was just broken all around. Arena Trap got banned and Duggie became trash. Trapinch was never relevant.
This is where I get hung up over this. If we're going to straight up kill uncompetitive things using complex bans like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, why not AT LEAST try it with Shed Tail and Rage Fist? The same applies to Houndstone/Basculegion and Last Respects whenever HOME drops.
Having not bothered to play SS, I can't entirely comment on the Draco twins and their bans, but it feels like much of a similar thing, except for Dracovish. From what I've heard, Vish is just stupid overall, like Bundle or Pal.
I see your point on it being all in one package, but I really don't see how that makes it broken, that just means that it has a lot of good traits that make it worth using.
1/3 moves in the game is just plain incorrect, as I mentioned already, outside of its innate weaknesses due to being steel/ghost there's only like 5 relavent moves that it actually blocks, spore, will-o, defog, twave, and... I can't think of anything else thats common, and I'm sorry but if your only means of dealing with things is statusing it, it's probably a very passive and bad mon to begin with
Thats alot of good traits. A mon doesnt have to be this lighting fast teamkiller to be broken. Sometimes offering too much utility is just as bad.
I know Primeape would not be a viable replacement for Annihilape. It would, however, be really funny, which is far more important.
Chi-Yu is almost fine, but thanks to Stab Terra, Sun, and Dark Pulse flinches, this wall breaker is pushed over the edge.
Pao is a faster band Crawdaunt dude. Or faster band Mel. Just like Water and Steel, Dark and Ice are offensive types that have answers and are types you don't really want to be locked into sometimes.
It reminds me of Band Kart.
If you're not prepped with revenge killers, or let your answers take chip, then it'll destroy your team.
Or, save ur answers, and/or take advantage of it being choice locked.
It's definitely an amazing mon, but it's not OP.
There are a good amount of mons that handle it naturally, or can RK it, or can Terra into a resisted type.
If your Corv dies to Terra Dark Band Crunch, then it's time to bring in your RK, or set up with your King.
Also, band loses hard to rocks, more so than Cheese-Yu, because Pao actually has switch ins, and takes RH chip.
This is where I reiterate the reply I left a page or two back that ability and move bans are not on their own complex and thus do not support your argument. You have to prove that every user of the Move or ability achieved similarly uncompetitive results to advocate banning those over the users, something Shadow Tag and Arena Trap demonstrated (people legitimately used Ditto and Trapinch as proof on the ladders where Dugtrio specifically was the suspect)
ive put up with this in my mind for a while but please, if you don't know the tier, are low ladder, and have no qualifications whatsoever, pleaseeee don't act as though you're better than everyone
The difference between these is that widespread trapping itself was deemed uncompetitive because it got to the point pre evos were being used to trap with rather good success. Trapinch was actually used for a bit before arena trap got banned entirely, even. Every pokemon with arena trap or shadow tag was uncompetitive because even the weak ones were denying a big part of singles play, switching. Duggy or goth being manageable post-ban wasn't an argument, and most people didn't give a shit about saving them, rather that it was clear the ability itself was the issue in every single case anyways. Before that, the pokémon themselves were banned because they were signature abilities, and there's no reason to complex ban something when only one pokemon has it when the easiest thing to do is ban the mon.
We don't even know if basculegion will have last respects for real or if it'll be removed when it launches, and tiering for an uncertain future is a mistake. If it does get it, then we'll actually have a reason to ban last respects, but for now, it falls under the same argument as above.
Vish would have been trash without fishious rend, but rend wasn't a broken move, so vish got banned. Rage fist is the exact same: a nuke move that has a good user but also has a garbage user in primeape, which shows its not a broken move in itself, but instead becomes overwhelming when combined with everything annihilape has.
You can't just argue that a move is the broken thing because a pokémon would be bad without it. That's how a lot of pokemon work, broken or not. You need to show us how this move is bad in every pokemon that gets it so there's proof that it'll be bad no matter what. I said it before, but shed tail has arguments for that if you actually are interested (don't agree with them that much but that's another can of worms). Primeape is garbo and annihiliape is the problem
I understand that, but I also understand that none of the points you've made really constitute as broken to me, you've claimed it warps the tier around itself, which is basically a non-statement given that this applies to a ton of strong threats in basically any meta, if something is good, teambuilding is going to warp around it to some extent. you've said that it invalidates status-based strategies, which again, a mon that relies solely on status to function is likely a very passive and exploitable pokemon regardless. you haven't made any convincing arguments in my eyes, simple as that.
+1 to this analysis—I use protect rocks garg on I think 100% of the teams I've used recently (high-ish ladder, ~1800), and while it generally is a great mon, if I run into a lure set it can be game over right there. Since damn near the whole tier gets sub + boosting moves, basically anything can be teched into a garg lure.
These aren't even deadweight mons otherwise too; something like booster valiant retains like 75% of its value with only moonblast, so slotting sub + cm is not a huge opportunity cost, and sub+boost can be great vs amoongus and pex without haze.
All in all, I think garg is great, but I think its far from banworthy right now. There's a bunch of common counterplay outside of covert cloak that doesn't put that much of a strain on teambuilding, it's just that teambuilding has essentially no give right now with the fish flying around
I haven't talked in a long time here, but I wanna talk about gholdengo a little bit. It's ability is amazing but it still has some issues. First, it's ability. I've found it's ability to be annoying to deal with, but thing is, you can still hit it offensively well. All the top mons have ways to beat it, and it's honestly a mon that enables a lot of playstyles like hazard stacking to shine in this brute metagame, and holds the tier together in my opinion. I believe his defenses, although not bad, aren't that good right now. Many mons like dondozo and clodsire are still broken through sheer power by some mons, so his defenses don't allow him to be as threatning. I remember using a screens gholdengo at the start of the metagame and honestly it's an impressive set I'm admired I don't see anywhere. It blocks spinners, defoggers, and any other mon that tries to use status moves, and in the meanwhile it supports the whole team, while also packing the op make it rain and thunder wave. Scarf set is really annoying to deal with but most scarfers actually outspeed it, and there are lots of sucker punches going on like Chien-Pao, Meowscarada, Kingambit, Physical Dragapult and now Cinderace, which is going to take my next point. Before, the tier struggled to remove hazards against gholdengo because it could simply hold a ballon to hold the ground types that spinned, like great tusk and iron treads, but those 2 started packing knock off to deal with gholdengo air ballon, and both can run speed evs to outspeed it. Quaquaval now that palafin's gone? It can run rapid spin and nothing tells you it won't threaten a 2hko after using swords dance against offensive gholdengo. Scizor? It can run night slash to 2 hko defensive after swords dance. Of course all of these are not that great, but the thing that holds me back from finding him op is the new addition cinderace. It already struggled against many top mons, but having one that can always court change against it no matter what, putting the opponent in a disavantage is amazing, specially since it can run pyro ball/sucker punch, and honestly when the meta was so focused in hazard stacking, i believe this is a great addition that makes gholdengo not as effective as it was before. Gholdengo still pairs up pretty well with a lot of mons like cyclizar, since it can nasty plot and has great synergy in it's typing, so definitely still one of the top threats.
I just don't find him ban worthy, as it doesn't completly destroy the metagame, but instead, simply can run multiple viable sets, which a fair comparison many people already mentioned is landorus.
I just don't find him ban worthy, as it doesn't completly destroy the metagame, but instead, simply can run multiple viable sets, which a fair comparison many people already mentioned is landorus.
Aigh, I'mma shut the fuck up then. Me and my casual ass will go back to the corner of "no one gives a fuck" now.
ChiYu QB is a given, but APE, CHIENPAO and CYCLIZAR are a lot more centralizing and even QB worthy/oppresing than Spartha, Spartha while it can be very powerful is kinda niche and needs some conditions or very favorable match up to actually sweep. (I still consider it might be suspect worthy, but a lot lower priority than the others.Alright, time for my objectively correct opinions on the Radar mons.
Im even finding most people agree those 3 need to go as they are a bit too much. Same with me i love them but after this few months its clear they arent healthy.
Hell, even Garganacl feels more oppressive than Spartha as unless u have a clear check (cloack), it can sit around and wear almost any team down with Salt Cure while it stays unkillable and switches around.
I would like to Nominate Dragapult as another Suspect candidate down the line, and I think many high ELO player will agree, its speed, movepool and variety of sets is just to much, pair this with some extra power in tera and its just too much. Watcha think radarman? Finchinator
If Shed Tail is the problem, do you also expect Orth to be ban-worthy if/when Cyc is removed from OU, then?
i feel like a gxe/elo requirement for meta discussion threads would significantly improve the quality of them, since it would ensure every poster is an active and reasonably skilled player of the meta, but then i wouldn't be allowed to be silly on them because i'm bad at the game
then again, that probably already exists. there must be some private thread or secret discord where all the high-quality discussion happens. like the pokemon equivalent of mensa but somehow even less socially adjusted
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