Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[TheTraininator]

Sun was arguably underrated before Wake too; people were just discovering how scary Brute Bonnet was on sun after Chi-Yu’s ban, and now Sun has a powerful tool the likes of which it has never had before in any gen. Wake makes sun arguably way more flexible than its ever been.

 

[Soiramio3000]

How long until we learn february's usage stats?

 

[Return to Zero]

After a day of playing, and this could change depending on developments, I personally think Walking Wake isn't broken. For it to dish out those massive damage rolls everyone keeps posting, it has to be under the effects of Sun, and even with the addition of Walking Wake which has boosted its viability, Sun as an archetype still isn't as consistent as others are. Many of Wake's good checks aren't even niche Pokemon, as shown in Roller K's post below:

Compare this to Chi-Yu where its power level was nuclear under Sun, but it was still near-impossible to switch in to without it. Chi-Yu also had STABs that had virtually no immunities outside of Flash Fire. Wake has to watch for Water Absorb, Storm Drain, and Fairy-types / Tera Fairy Pokemon, making it much easier to maneuver around.

I feel if there's anything that's taking Walking Wake "over the edge", it's its ability to demolish offense with Proto-Speed under Sun. Hugely-powerful STABs that not a lot of offensive threats can deal with unless they resist / are immune, all while outspeeding just about everything. I'm interested to see how the meta will continue to develop with its presence, but I don't really think immediate action needs to be taken.

Not gonna lie, kinda starting to agree with this. Wake is definitely going to end up on the radar eventually because it's so damn strong, but I think it may end up settling into a position like the other OU greats. Really, the only major upset I can think of is that Clodsire's gonna be using Water Absorb way more often now instead of Unaware.

I'd definitely advocate for suspecting Garganacl first. Wake is obnoxiously strong, but not in a revolutionary way that you can't deal with at the expense of teambuilding. Garg, still the same giant pain it was on day one.

 

[magickarplol33]

There lots of great tanks on the meta, like corviknight , quagsire, dondozo, clodsire and even gastrodon, or goodra (not the best but possibility to 3HKO) most of them are water types, so my solution?
Specs eiscue, with max speed+max sp.atk it can kill with STAB freeze-dry mons like dozo, quagsi and 2shot some clod sets. Most of these are physical offensive giving eiscue not only a turn with his ice face ability, but also a great advantage with its base 130 speed on its noice (can predict u-turn to activate) form allowing him to outspeed most non booster/scarf paradox mons and the hit the new Walking wake for a x4 and many others for x2.
Terra electric allows for a some mayor bulk, and a way to hit corviknight super effectively.
Moves like surf/hydro pump serve to do quite some dmg to fire terra types. weather ball allows to hit with strong fire/water moves depending on the team and can be used along side Ttar for a rock 100 base attack, for bug types and flying types with strong moves and Ttar sp.def can serve as a swith-in into strong fire types that threat Eiscue, and sandstorm serve to counter Sun protosynthesis teams that use Torkoal, with a Ttar mixed Attacker running thunderbolt, earth power, avalanche and rock tomb + terra ghost for fighting Types.
This is my first comment on a smogon forum so idk if theres Any rule I didnt follow or if I should post this somewhere else. anyway... thoughts on this Idea?

 

[Eeveeto]

There lots of great tanks on the meta, like corviknight , quagsire, dondozo, clodsire and even gastrodon, or goodra, most of them are water types, so my solution?
Specs eiscue, with max speed+max sp.atk it can kill with STAB freeze-dry mons like dozo, quagsi and 2shot some clod sets. Most of these are physical offensive giving eiscue not only a turn with his ice face ability, but also a great advantage with its base 130 speed on its noice (can predict u-turn to activate) form allowing him to outspeed most non booster/scarf paradox mons and the hit the new Walking wake for a x4 and many others for x2.
Terra electric allows for a some mayor bulk, and a way to hit corviknight super effectively.
Moves like surf/hydro pump serve to do quite some dmg to fire terra types. weather ball allows to hit with strong fire/water moves depending on the team and can be used along side Ttar for a rock 100 base attack, for bug types and flying types with strong moves and Ttar sp.def can serve as a swith-in into strong fire types that threat Eiscue, and sandstorm serve to counter Sun protosynthesis teams that use Torkoal, with a Ttar mixed Attacker running thunderbolt, earth power, avalanche and rock tomb + terra ghost for fighting Types.
This is my first comment on a smogon forum so idk if theres Any rule I didnt follow or if I should post this somewhere else. anyway... thoughts on this Idea?

Eiscue has 65 Special Attack in both forms, it will be walled by everything as a Specs user. Would rather use...(deep breath) Glaceon with 130 Special Attack. It has everything Eiscue ever wanted except the ability to always live a Physical hit. Still, Glaceon's bulk for a wallbreaker is not entirely bad.

Physical Eiscue is still a gimmick but at least usable and not outclassed by anything.

 

[Return to Zero]

There lots of great tanks on the meta, like corviknight , quagsire, dondozo, clodsire and even gastrodon, or goodra, most of them are water types, so my solution?
Specs eiscue, with max speed+max sp.atk it can kill with STAB freeze-dry mons like dozo, quagsi and 2shot some clod sets. Most of these are physical offensive giving eiscue not only a turn with his ice face ability, but also a great advantage with its base 130 speed on its noice (can predict u-turn to activate) form allowing him to outspeed most non booster/scarf paradox mons and the hit the new Walking wake for a x4 and many others for x2.
Terra electric allows for a some mayor bulk, and a way to hit corviknight super effectively.
Moves like surf/hydro pump serve to do quite some dmg to fire terra types. weather ball allows to hit with strong fire/water moves depending on the team and can be used along side Ttar for a rock 100 base attack, for bug types and flying types with strong moves and Ttar sp.def can serve as a swith-in into strong fire types that threat Eiscue, and sandstorm serve to counter Sun protosynthesis teams that use Torkoal, with a Ttar mixed Attacker running thunderbolt, earth power, avalanche and rock tomb + terra ghost for fighting Types.
This is my first comment on a smogon forum so idk if theres Any rule I didnt follow or if I should post this somewhere else. anyway... thoughts on this Idea?

I really like the spirit of this, but Eiscue's Special Attack just is not it. Electric Tera Blast on a Timid set does not consistently 2HKO Corviknight even if it's the physically defensive sort. Same with Dondozo. Freeze Dry works on Walking Wake and Quagsire, but one of those can OHKO it in return and outspeeds without needing to do a form change gimmick, and the other is UU and outclassed by its Poison cousin who can take that hit just fine.

Also, uh. Goodra's pure Dragon.

 

[magickarplol33]

Eiscue has 65 Special Attack in both forms, it will be walled by everything as a Specs user. Would rather use...(deep breath) Glaceon with 130 Special Attack. It has everything Eiscue ever wanted except the ability to always live a Physical hit. Still, Glaceon's bulk for a wallbreaker is not entirely bad.

Physical Eiscue is still a gimmick but at least usable and not outclassed by anything.

I get where you are coming from, but max sp. Atk specs makes for a 375 sp atk stat, which isn’t that bad for against more or less fast sweepers, like meowscarada, iron valiant and cinderace. Not Every Pokémon get 130 base stat. + people most likely expect a belly drum set, so you got the factor of surprise

 

[YNM]

Would rather use...(deep breath) Glaceon with 130 Special Attack.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Walking Wake: 880-1036 (259.5 - 305.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 350-414 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 534-630 (105.9 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 274-324 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 248-294 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think we can safely say that Glaceon is the best wallbreaker in the tier and deserves to be suspected, definitely an S+ mon.

 

[Return to Zero]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Walking Wake: 880-1036 (259.5 - 305.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 350-414 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 534-630 (105.9 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 274-324 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 248-294 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think we can safely say that Glaceon is the best wallbreaker in the tier and deserves to be suspected, definitely an S+ mon.

So true bestie. I've been saying this for years, Trailblaze Glaceon sweeping sets have had a stranglehold on the meta for so long.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Walking Wake: 880-1036 (259.5 - 305.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 350-414 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 534-630 (105.9 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 274-324 (68.6 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 248-294 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think we can safely say that Glaceon is the best wallbreaker in the tier and deserves to be suspected, definitely an S+ mon.

This isn’t even at its maximum power. Go Tera ice specs blizzard in snow.

 

[magickarplol33]

I really like the spirit of this, but Eiscue's Special Attack just is not it. Electric Tera Blast on a Timid set does not consistently 2HKO Corviknight even if it's the physically defensive sort. Same with Dondozo. Freeze Dry works on Walking Wake and Quagsire, but one of those can OHKO it in return and outspeeds without needing to do a form change gimmick, and the other is UU and outclassed by its Poison cousin who can take that hit just fine.

Also, uh. Goodra's pure Dragon.

I said goodra, but it was a mistake since it’s a sp. def tank (was Thinking ttar avalanche would kill it), but still gets x2 from ice moves.
I did the calcs, and dondozo would need to terra into something that isnt weak to freeze dry or electric to not get 2shoted.

 

[Return to Zero]

I said goodra, but it was a mistake since it’s a sp. def tank (was Thinking ttar avalanche would kill it), but still gets x2 from ice moves.
I did the calcs, and dondozo would need to terra into something that isnt weak to freeze dry or electric to not get 2shoted.

Granted, but at that point, you've blown your surprise factor with the Specs set and potentially your own Tera just to 2HKO Dondozo if it decides to stay in, which is a bit of a pyrrhic victory. And that only works on the full defense investment two attacks/Rest Talk sets. The Curse variants that run max Special Defense are 3HKOs even without Tera. (I am assuming this is a Timid Eiscue and not Modest, because I assume you do not want to be outran by all three Protean starters and Roaring Moon.)

 

[Turtleye_]

Sharing my thoughts on Wake so far

Its really strong, yes, but I don't feel like you need to bend over backwards to find answers to it, unlike Chien Pao or Chi Yu with mons like FTauros/WTauros or Dachsbun respectively. There are switch-ins to Wake that can pretty easily slot into teams, with the most notable ones being Slowking and Water Absorb Clodsire. Aside from answering Wake, both of these mons are good on their own, being able to switch into a number of meta threats and doing their thing - FuturePort pivoting or laying hazards & spreading toxic. Also, both of these do actually have reliable recovery and aren't 1 or 2 time answers to wake, which relieves a lot of pressure

That said, Specs SpA boosted Draco Meteors under sun can be very threatening but Draco is not a spammable move. Steel or Fairy mons pair up well with both, so even then you have the option to just switch out.

Wake's reliance on Sun to become a super threatening wallbreaker is also something that can be played around since Torkoal is often the weakest link on a sun team and can become set-up fodder. Plus it's really weak to hazards.

There are other defensive checks to Wake as well, such as Azu, Steel types, Fairy types, Gastrodon, and more fringe options like Sylveon, Blissey or Scream Tail.

Checking it offensively is a bit harder but things like DNite or Meowscarada can kill a weakened Wake. You can also take advantage of a Wake locked into Draco to get a mon in safely. It is fairly bulky for an offensive mon though.

If there is anything that does concern me its how Wake can dismantle Offense under sun.
It outruns a lot of mons with a Speed Proto and hits really hard. Though I don't play HO, and havent had the Offense vs Wake Sun matchup yet, *on paper* it seems a bit problematic.


So far I've had more problems with Fire Tera Bonnet on sun than Walking Wake lmao
It just doesnt die

Eiscue has 65 Special Attack in both forms, it will be walled by everything as a Specs user. Would rather use...(deep breath) Glaceon with 130 Special Attack.

He who shall not be named has returned once more

 

[Eeveeto]

∆ Bro, I think we can all agree that Specs Glaceon (130 Special Attack) is a huge improvement as a recommendation to use in OU over Specs Eiscue (65 Special Attack).

 

[Turtleye_]

∆ Bro, I think we can all agree that Specs Glaceon (130 Special Attack) is a huge improvement as a recommendation to use in OU over Specs Eiscue (65 Special Attack).

Oh absolutely, I didnt mean to say Eiscue is a better Specs Freeze Dry mon than Glaceon lmao.
I do want to try it out, but I'm just making a joke about the Glaceon situation

It got blacklisted from this thread

 

[Eeveeto]

Oh absolutely, I didnt mean to say Eiscue is a better Specs Freeze Dry mon than Glaceon lmao.
I do want to try it out, but I'm just making a joke about the Glaceon situation

It got blacklisted from this thread

I am Eeveeto though, Glaceon is an Eeveelution. That means I get a free pass on this specific topic, just like the black community gets to say the N word while everyone else doesn't.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

I am Eeveeto though, Glaceon is an Eeveelution. That means I get a free pass on this specific topic, just like the black community gets to say the N word while everyone else doesn't.

How do I not have rights bro, I posted about glaceon and then Someone wanted glaceon to be banned so there won’t be discussion

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Sharing my thoughts on Wake so far


So far I've had more problems with Fire Tera Bonnet on sun than Walking Wake lmao
It just doesnt die

Most teams are unquestionably overprepared to handle Wake, just as they were for Flutter Mane. This doesn't mean Wake isn't broken on Sun teams. People might get caught offguard by Brute Bonnet since nobody cares about Bonnet in particular. Wake in Sun affects teambuilding substantially, people are subconsciously modifying their team to handle it.

 

[Eeveeto]

How do I not have rights bro, I posted about glaceon and then Someone wanted glaceon to be banned so there won’t be discussion

That dude is just jealous cause Buzzwole has been Dexited from SV (a price I was more than willing to pay, since it also meant no more Kartana and Blacephalon ) while Eeveelutions are becoming the mascots of Pokemon. Soon, we will be unstoppable.

 

[Turtleye_]

Most teams are unquestionably ocerprepasws to handle wake, just as they were for Flutter Mane. This doesn't mean Wake isn't broken on Sun teams. People might get caught offguard by Brute Bonnet since nobody cares about Bonnet in particular. Wake in Sun affects teambuilding substantially, people are subconsciously modifying their team to handle it.

Its very early on still and I could be off the mark here ofcourse, but as of right now I dont think Wake forcing teams to be prepared is a bad thing? New mons should by all means have the impact to shake up the meta. Just because team structures are changing to handle a newly released mon doesn't mean that this new mon is broken.

It doesn't force mons or sets on teams that do nothing except answer Wake, like the Tauros variants for Chien Pao or fucking CM Blissey for Flutter Mane (which Blissey could still lose to, depending the set Mane was carrying)

Both Clod and Slowking, the 2 most consistent answers so far imo, are good in OU and have teammates that slot in nicely to cover weaknesses & pivot around Wake. Corv + Clod for example, or Slowking + Kingambit. It might prove too restricting that these are the only "main" answers to it but I mentioned other decent ways to handle it & other people have mentioned more.

That said, new sets might pop up that prove to be more problematic - like what happened with Palafin's Bulk Up + Taunt set. Tho fwict Wake doesn't have too many neat utility or tech options beyond specific Tera types. I personally think that even if i end up being wrong on this and Wake is really just broken, it is too early to tell right now.

 

[ant4456]

the new falseswipegaming video on the biggest winners and losers of gen 9 (ou) is wild, and makes me question who wrote the video

like, breloom and scizor gaining close combat is cool and all, but we're saying that's a bigger buff than Gallade in Gen 9? hell, grimmsnarl getting Parting Shot?

garchomp getting spikes was a huge buff? it is a buff, but it also lost scale shot, making swords dance a lot less viable than gen 8

the mention of toxapex, an OU good pokemon being a major loss, and not blissey/chansey, which fell off a cliff, is similarly funny

 

[1LDK]

Anyways im moving the discussion a bit

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Tera Blast
- Hyper Voice

here is your new counter to both Walking wake AND Zoroark Hisui

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Bitter Malice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 57.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

You basically NEED Sludge Bomb and even then

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, on Walker Wake land

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 128-151 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And you basically need Tera Blast and use tera to try and get past it
244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Poison Walking Wake Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (steel also works)

Reject Clefable
Return to Sylveon

 

[YNM]

the new falseswipegaming video on the biggest winners and losers of gen 9 (ou) is wild, and makes me question who wrote the video

BKC the Goat, he writes all of FalseSwipeGaming videos as a matter of facts

That dude is just jealous cause Buzzwole has been Dexited from SV (a price I was more than willing to pay, since it also meant no more Kartana and Blacephalon ) while Eeveelutions are becoming the mascots of Pokemon. Soon, we will be unstoppable.

I gotta hit up Morkal to start cooking something with this mon...

 

[Eeveeto]

BKC the Goat, he writes all of FalseSwipeGaming videos as a matter of facts

I gotta hit up Morkal to start cooking something with this mon...

No teams yet (playing non OU Metas at the moment), but I do have all the possible sets (except maybe Tera Water with Mud Shot and no Shadow Ball) in this one post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-lure-that-threat.3712577/page-12#post-9516344

 

[ant4456]

BKC the Goat, he writes all of FalseSwipeGaming videos as a matter of facts

I gotta hit up Morkal to start cooking something with this mon...

doesn't BKC generally ignore current gen ou LOL

i know BKC writes most fsg videos but this scrit was pretty low quality compared to normal

idk