Wake feels like it'll make already existing Sun teams better. We might see a slight rise in usage, but it's a good standalone Pokemon.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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bro just called espathra well designed...
anyway enough Terra. I know we're all in love with Walking Wake, and for good reason, but three days in, how are people feeling about Iron Leaves? It feels simultaneously pretty good and kinda dogshit, which to me screams UU menace. No idea what the best set is but I've been enjoying this garbage one on a sun team w/ the usual Suspects.
Iron Leaves @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Solar Blade
- Leaf Blade/Tera Blast
- Psyblade
- Close Combat
Items and EVs were made in ten seconds but Solar Blade is a certified funny option that people seem to never expect and explodes the fuck out of a lot of good mons. Leaf Blade is probably better than Tera Blast because you could always just not Tera or not be in sun but Tera Fire Tera Blast in Sun is pretty good for hitting steels like Gholdengo who are not so afraid of CC, which I'm also not sold on as a good move on this thing but it takes what it can get.
This thing is kinda ass otherwise tho. It should be decent but just isn't, it needs Tera to not be defensively dead weight but there are so many better Tera options and it needs a Choice Scarf to not be offensively dead weight but it also wants to change the move it's using a lot.
anyway enough Terra. I know we're all in love with Walking Wake, and for good reason, but three days in, how are people feeling about Iron Leaves? It feels simultaneously pretty good and kinda dogshit, which to me screams UU menace. No idea what the best set is but I've been enjoying this garbage one on a sun team w/ the usual Suspects.
Iron Leaves @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Solar Blade
- Leaf Blade/Tera Blast
- Psyblade
- Close Combat
Items and EVs were made in ten seconds but Solar Blade is a certified funny option that people seem to never expect and explodes the fuck out of a lot of good mons. Leaf Blade is probably better than Tera Blast because you could always just not Tera or not be in sun but Tera Fire Tera Blast in Sun is pretty good for hitting steels like Gholdengo who are not so afraid of CC, which I'm also not sold on as a good move on this thing but it takes what it can get.
This thing is kinda ass otherwise tho. It should be decent but just isn't, it needs Tera to not be defensively dead weight but there are so many better Tera options and it needs a Choice Scarf to not be offensively dead weight but it also wants to change the move it's using a lot.
Leaves feels lacking to me. It has a meh offensive typing, dies to First Impression/Sucker Punch anything, and the fact that Psyblade makes contact makes it a lot less appealing to me than any other grasses. I have yet to actually make good use of it any team. Quark is also wasted on it, since Terrain is only auto generated by one legal Pokemon, and that Pokemon is dog water.
First off, rude.
Second off, an actual rebuttal because this isn’t a fair assessment at all.
We just took the data the community provided to determine the options and the suspect. We have done this with every other ban and suspect as well. It is not rocket science. Council action is normally heavily foreshadowed and predictable. I am also very transparent and telling on these fronts. This was especially true for Tera and it’s suspect.
Perhaps instead of labeling us as massive failures and claiming we made mistakes, you accept that your view does not align with the community’s view, and we have to lean towards the side of caution with a generational mechanic by default. The council has, can, and likely will make mistakes, but to label this as one with your argument is wholly unfair.
I personally agree action is needed. But I also agree that the community should decide this, not a small group of people. They did once and they will get another chance if and when appropriate.
The process was community driven and will be again. The council’s job is not what you lead it onto be and it hasn’t been for many years. We are ran by the data from the people with a little judgement infused to optimize the process, but you are suggesting things that would directly contradict data from them.
Couldn’t ban anything in the middle of the Tera suspect and then we had a radar and ban (including the Fish) within 3-4 days. Then another suspect as soon as we got survey data (including the Panther) after the bans. Not sure what more you could possibly want in terms of pace.
Between this and people crying over the lack of Garg test, I ask people to take a step back and look at the timeline. This is the most congested three months of tiering in Smogon’s history, and it’s not particularly close either. It is a logistical impossibility to fit anything more in there.
Yeah, I know. I was just trying to play devil's advocate. But to be fair, Pao and Yu were tearing up the meta for a long time. Yu took a month and a half-ish, and Pao took two and change. I know and understand how the process goes, not throwing shade at all. You guys have been fantastic.
This made me think - how do you guys think the Quark mons will be affected by Koko's inevitable return? Will ETerrain finally be a real team, or still a gimmick? Koko's not really a classic setter, but it will almost certainly power terrain teams better than Pincurchin can.
If Koko actually does come back it'll be a real problem (Any of Tapus tbh). It's something to take in account for because no offense Pincurchin is a waste of a slot and non comparable to Torkoal who provides bulk as well as setting up Rocks, Spinning and even Yawning away mons to switch out.
edit: Pincurchin actually helps beat Psyspam pretty decently so thats a plus.
E Terrain as a team style could actually work pretty damn well. Koko stuffs Tusk really hard, and a lot of Quark mons either have Volt Switch or U-Turn, making momentum keeping pretty simple.
For me Tera is totally fine, it is a good mechanic and brings more variety to the game since it can allow mons with bad typings be played, yes, it can make already strong mons be stronger but we aren't going to act like if Chi-Yu, Mane or Blunde wouldn't be uber even with tera gone.
For me the true issue with SV OU is the powercreep + limitations on the pool of Pokémon to pick. Gen 9 mons are way too optimized in both, stats and movepool which makes them too strong in comparation others (Espartha: speed boost+stored power and calm mind), while most of the old mons even got nerfed. We just need to take a look at the banlist, it is all gen 9 mons, and just like have been said a few times, with the current "confirmed" mons coming back with him none of the ubers is trully a candidate to be re-rested.
Home for now doesn't look like it is going to solve, at least not with the info we have at this moment. The true game changing update in my opinion it will be the dlcs, not only because it will allow more mons to play, but also potentially buff others via tutors.
Leaves is a Pokemon I could see working in some Metas, maybe after a Home shake-up, but there is no getting around its massive Tera dependence in this one due to HOW bad its defensive typing impacts it. Of the Top 7 Pokemon (S ranks and A+), it absolutely hates 5/7 them (and Garg only makes the other 2 if it hasn't Tera'd yet). Its statline would be perfect for a SD Breaker but it's not enough to compensate, especially given its coverage has some massive holes against things like Gholdengo and its STABs can afford quite a few switch-in opportunities that force it to predict really well (Iron Valiant for example comes in for free if it has use CC even if it fears Psyblade or neutral Leaf Blade).
The Past vs Future discrepancy doesn't do it any favors either considering Walking Wake bolsters Sun as a playstyle while already having a better setter in Torkoal, which creates a feedback loop to encourage Protosynthesis while QD is still stuck with a Non-Mon for its only ability setter. Walking Wake fills in a big hole for what was already a decent playstyle, while I don't see what Leaves brings to OU that we didn't have already nor do I see what it can do well enough to perform on its own merits without some big synergetic partner.
The Past vs Future discrepancy doesn't do it any favors either considering Walking Wake bolsters Sun as a playstyle while already having a better setter in Torkoal, which creates a feedback loop to encourage Protosynthesis while QD is still stuck with a Non-Mon for its only ability setter. Walking Wake fills in a big hole for what was already a decent playstyle, while I don't see what Leaves brings to OU that we didn't have already nor do I see what it can do well enough to perform on its own merits without some big synergetic partner.
Used Band / SD on E-Terrain and its been a mixed bag. Its pretty damn strong for sure with Quark Drive, but you have to make so many hard reads for it to do damage vs a lot of common cores like Corviknight + Tusk, Meowscarada + Gholdengo, etc. which is further worsened by the fact that this Pokemon will likely be revenge killed afterward by Dragapult / Meow / Cinderace / whatever because of its 4x U-Turn weakness. In a playstyle like E-Terrain where you wanna maximize the value of the limited duration it grants you, this isn't ideal. Grass / Psychic might have been an OK type combo in like gen 5, but its utter trash in this meta because Steels resist your STABs and you are weak to almost every move the meta's top dogs use like Iron Valiant's Shadow Ball / Knock Off, Dragapult's U-Turn, Gholdengo's Shadow Ball, Great Tusk Knock Off, etc. Grass / Dark isn't a great typing either, but at least the combination has perfect neutral coverage and has some relivant resistances its can make use of like to Ghost-type moves to let it pivot in on some threats. Sure you can use Tera to mitigate the bad typing, but it feels like a waste to use on this compared to other Pokemon like Iron Valiant, which is an Uber under E-Terrain. Still, when the stars align, this Pokemon's power isn't anything to scoff at either.
252 Atk Choice Band Quark Drive Iron Leaves Psyblade (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Electric Terrain: 199-235 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Quark Drive Iron Leaves Psyblade (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk in Electric Terrain: 456-536 (105 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm sorry council for ever doubting you, you've been working so hard and the meta wouldn't be balanced without you. You know the game better than any of us ever could. Respect.
Finch, thanks for putting it in perspective.
I randomly got passionate and heated again about this topic, but I see I am being selfish in demanding things happen exactly when I want.
I guess I've never been this involved with a meta to realize how slowly it takes to develop.
I was trying to force pace and progress on my own w terra, as in private room, but I need to move at the pace of the council.
Once again, thank you for your continued transparency and patience with the community and myself personally.
I know how I'm coming across, its kinda cringe, I know. But I mean what I say about feeling robbed of an amazing metagame. However, honestly, it isn't my place. I will stop any grass-roots campaign against Terra now and forever. No more tears from me on the forums. You have enough to deal with.
I just needed a shred of perspective and transparency to put me at ease. Thanks again for that, as always.
I have faith you and the council will take care of our community.
Koko throwing around terrain and enabling funky Quark Drive shenanigans sounds amazing and I'd love it. Grimmsnarl wants what my bro has. Go for screens and Volt Switch and the new age of our great tyrant HO Valiant begins. About time the Violet gang also got a reliable brainless way to get their ability off.
Tera is fine. Seriously. Tera is not and has not been the problem. The only bans we've had so far would all absolutely have been banned even without Tera in the equation. Maybe not Annihilape and Espathra, but there's still absolutely strong arguments to them going to Ubers without Tera (in part because if they can't use defensive Tera, neither can you). I think Tera is super fun.
Now, once Home and the DLC drop and the power scale gets flipped turnways, we might have to re-examine this. But for now? Tera makes SV OU better, not worse.
Tera is fine. Seriously. Tera is not and has not been the problem. The only bans we've had so far would all absolutely have been banned even without Tera in the equation. Maybe not Annihilape and Espathra, but there's still absolutely strong arguments to them going to Ubers without Tera (in part because if they can't use defensive Tera, neither can you). I think Tera is super fun.
Now, once Home and the DLC drop and the power scale gets flipped turnways, we might have to re-examine this. But for now? Tera makes SV OU better, not worse.
Only problem I can see with Screens Koko for Quark HO is that it would maybe want to run both Terrain Extender and Light Clay, otherwise you're losing some good time. But otherwise genuinely seems like a very good archetype enabler, especially with u-turn
If Koko comes, valiant is most likely getting banned. LO sets in particular seems scary, since it can switch up it's move to hit practically anything. Psyshock for clod, t-bolt (boosted further by terrain) for corv, maybe shadow ball for skele and ghold, and moonblast for overall power. It's already looking terrifying, but with that extra but of speed/ SpA ( mainly speed) might tip it over the edge
If Koko comes, HE is likely getting banned. Tera Ice with that Speed seems almost unstoppable. Doesn,t even need strong teammates, he himself is really strong and can be both physical and Special.
Terrain Extender is probably the way to go. Set up one screen depending on what the opponent has out, switch out, give the business.
Gib 'em de bidnez.
See, I think this will be pretty interesting. The only Electric type in OU right now is Wash, so we don't actually have a precedent for what introducing something fast and strong like Tapu Koko into this meta will be like. I see Kilowattrel on the ladder every once in a while, but that's it. I really hope it doesn't need to be banned though, since in Ubers it's going to completely useless in the same tier as Miraidon.
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