Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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See, I think this will be pretty interesting. The only Electric type in OU right now is Wash, so we don't actually have a precedent for what introducing something fast and strong like Tapu Koko into this meta will be like. I see Kilowattrel on the ladder every once in a while, but that's it. I really hope it doesn't need to be banned though, since in Ubers it's going to completely useless in the same tier as Miraidon.
There is also Sandy Shocks, who sometimes uses Tera Ice with great success. However, its not as fast as Koko and has no Recovery. Zapdos and Regieleki are coming soon, with the later being very likely banned for the very same reason.
Also, being useless in Ubers is not a reason for something to not get banned, otherwise I would be enjoying Kyurem in OU in SS ( I was actually against the Ban, but definetely not for it being useless in Ubers). Same for Zygarde 50% and Spectrier (in SS, in SV I hope the horse doesn,t get to live a minute in OU).
 
See, I think this will be pretty interesting. The only Electric type in OU right now is Wash, so we don't actually have a precedent for what introducing something fast and strong like Tapu Koko into this meta will be like. I see Kilowattrel on the ladder every once in a while, but that's it. I really hope it doesn't need to be banned though, since in Ubers it's going to completely useless in the same tier as Miraidon.
Don't worry, Miraidon will just go to AG like one Mascot always seems to shot for.

Real talk though, I think Koko would be an interesting presence to see in OU because most of the QD mons are borderline Uber mons with that power behind them, compared to the Protosynthesis mons being generally better than them neutral but not as dramatically buffed by sun (present additions not withstanding).

For clarification, is Regieleki's anticipated problem Tera Ice for coverage (mediocre offenses but it does have enough for the couple Grounds like Tusk and Chomp), or is Tera Electric for Nuclear TB less of a meme than I had assumed?
 
There is also Sandy Shocks, who sometimes uses Tera Ice with great success. However, its not as fast as Koko and has no Recovery. Zapdos and Regieleki are coming soon, with the later being very likely banned for the very same reason.
Also, being useless in Ubers is not a reason for something to not get banned, otherwise I would be enjoying Kyurem in OU in SS ( I was actually against the Ban, but definetely not for it being useless in Ubers). Same for Zygarde 50% and Spectrier (in SS, in SV I hope the horse doesn,t get to live a minute in OU).
I'm not advocating for Koko being legal even if it's too strong just because I like it. What I said was I hope it doesn't need to be banned.
 
Don't worry, Miraidon will just go to AG like one Mascot always seems to shot for.

Real talk though, I think Koko would be an interesting presence to see in OU because most of the QD mons are borderline Uber mons with that power behind them, compared to the Protosynthesis mons being generally better than them neutral but not as dramatically buffed by sun (present additions not withstanding).

For clarification, is Regieleki's anticipated problem Tera Ice for coverage (mediocre offenses but it does have enough for the couple Grounds like Tusk and Chomp), or is Tera Electric for Nuclear TB less of a meme than I had assumed?
Probably Tera Ice. Specs Eleki outruns every Scarf user unless they've got also got a Protosynthesis/Quark Drive Speed boost or their name is Dragapult. Between Thunderbolt and Tera Blast, check out the damage calculator and see how often the phrase "guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock" comes up. It's wild what Tera does for this thing.
 
If Koko comes, HE is likely getting banned. Tera Ice with that Speed seems almost unstoppable. Doesn,t even need strong teammates, he himself is really strong and can be both physical and Special.
Koko already has good coverage from Grass Knot and has a really solid defensive typing. There's no way Ice Koko would be anything more than a gimmick, especially because it already has Fairy STAB to get rid of dragons.
We also have a desperate need for natural Fairies to be able to switch into all the Dragon and Dark attacks we have running around without needing to rely on Tera.
If Tera Ice made any Electric fast and strong OP you'd see Jolteon in a tier higher than NU right now. Especially because it has a significantly higher Sp Atk than Koko.
 
Koko already has good coverage from Grass Knot and has a really solid defensive typing. There's no way Ice Koko would be anything more than a gimmick, especially because it already has Fairy STAB to get rid of dragons.
We also have a desperate need for natural Fairies to be able to switch into all the Dragon and Dark attacks we have running around without needing to rely on Tera.
If Tera Ice made any Electric fast and strong OP you'd see Jolteon in a tier higher than NU right now. Especially because it has a significantly higher Sp Atk than Koko.
This, Koko isn't that strong when used other move that isn"t an electric move, also, keep in mind that tera ice would add a SR weakness which is awful because Koko usually needs choice specs if you want to use it as a strong attacker and also electric types love to use volt switch, so being weak to rocks would be big for them.
 
Koko already has good coverage from Grass Knot and has a really solid defensive typing. There's no way Ice Koko would be anything more than a gimmick, especially because it already has Fairy STAB to get rid of dragons.
We also have a desperate need for natural Fairies to be able to switch into all the Dragon and Dark attacks we have running around without needing to rely on Tera.
If Tera Ice made any Electric fast and strong OP you'd see Jolteon in a tier higher than NU right now. Especially because it has a significantly higher Sp Atk than Koko.
This, Koko isn't that strong when used other move that isn"t an electric move, also, keep in mind that tera ice would add a SR weakness which is awful because Koko usually needs choice specs if you want to use it as a strong attacker and also electric types love to use volt switch, so being weak to rocks would be big for them.
to be fair, the same goes for eleki, which only has 9 more special attack, and gets most of its power from its ability. On the other hand, koko has more coverage with grass knot, usefulness without tera, and support for future paradoxes. Boots koko is a legitimate set, and could definitely work just like boots eleki worked in Natdex.
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
If Koko comes, HE is likely getting banned. Tera Ice with that Speed seems almost unstoppable. Doesn,t even need strong teammates, he himself is really strong and can be both physical and Special.
i don't think tapu koko will get the hammer with or without terastallization but if we're talking about the tera potential of the tapus then we can't go without addressing the elephant in the room, tapu lele. being able to either gain STAB on any move it wants to beat anything it wants or power up its STABs even further makes it genuinely unstoppable to the point of being downright absurd. i don't see how lele wouldn't be broken in any format where tera is legal, it's just that stupidly powerful with it. of course, only time will tell whether or not the mechanic will be legal in OU when (or should i say if) the tapus return but if any previous gen OU mon should have concerns regarding their tera potential, it's definitely lele.
 
Speaking of Electric Surge/Terrain I feel like Bellibolt would be a great choice for that ability by virtue of having some actual stats compared to poor Pinchie. Dunno why they didn't make Electromorphosis into a Seed Sower clone at least. Oh well, guess it's manual setting time. :pikuh:
 
i don't think tapu koko will get the hammer with or without terastallization but if we're talking about the tera potential of the tapus then we can't go without addressing the elephant in the room, tapu lele. being able to either gain STAB on any move it wants to beat anything it wants or power up its STABs even further makes it genuinely unstoppable to the point of being downright absurd. i don't see how lele wouldn't be broken in any format where tera is legal, it's just that stupidly powerful with it. of course, only time will tell whether or not the mechanic will be legal in OU when (or should i say if) the tapus return but if any previous gen OU mon should have concerns regarding their tera potential, it's definitely lele.
I would not mind in the slightest if Lele wasn't able to menace OU the same way it currently does NatDex with Choice Scarf. SV's lower overall power level and reduced options means it's gonna be even more of a problem here, since like a few people have said already, we're kinda hurting for Fairies and it's taking a slot no one else really is.
 
Koko already has good coverage from Grass Knot and has a really solid defensive typing. There's no way Ice Koko would be anything more than a gimmick, especially because it already has Fairy STAB to get rid of dragons.
We also have a desperate need for natural Fairies to be able to switch into all the Dragon and Dark attacks we have running around without needing to rely on Tera.
If Tera Ice made any Electric fast and strong OP you'd see Jolteon in a tier higher than NU right now. Especially because it has a significantly higher Sp Atk than Koko.
i don't think tapu koko will get the hammer with or without terastallization but if we're talking about the tera potential of the tapus then we can't go without addressing the elephant in the room, tapu lele. being able to either gain STAB on any move it wants to beat anything it wants or power up its STABs even further makes it genuinely unstoppable to the point of being downright absurd. i don't see how lele wouldn't be broken in any format where tera is legal, it's just that stupidly powerful with it. of course, only time will tell whether or not the mechanic will be legal in OU when (or should i say if) the tapus return but if any previous gen OU mon should have concerns regarding their tera potential, it's definitely lele.
tera ice won't see much use on koko and definitely won't contribute to a theoretical ban, but we also have to consider that koko's mere existence in the tier would also bump every quark drive mon up at least two letters on the vr. i don't know whether to consider this a problem or not—we have sun teams right now and they're really good but definitely not worthy of tiering action as a whole, so eterrain teams might wind up the same, but koko is more viable in ou than every non-ubers sun setter in history combined and there are far fewer ou-viable terrain setters than weather setters. also, i don't like the idea of valiant, moth, hands and jugulis with consistent and viable eterrain support.

but considering that koko hasn't been confirmed by either the initial home leaks or the new dlc leaks, this is just theorymonning right now
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
On the Koko/Valiant theorymonning discussion, Koko will bring the true actual scariest set of valiant

No, the booster energy sets are shit, the true horror is the Expert Belt sets, Valiant does not lack power, can take a neutral hit, and punishes slow attempts are bringing it down, you need to have a plan to stall or out offense valiant, with U-turn support and the speed boost not requiring the item, it can use its massive coverage to dunk hard on most mons clean, faster than boosting with Calm Minds, thing is, you could also go with Calm Mind or Swords Dance to give even more power, and there, the game is over, you guys think valiant is good because mixed weird ass sets? You guys haven't seen shit, a well settled valiant out damages specs and band in this scenario, and frankly, makes the sweep more stylish

Honestly, this ALMOST makes me want to have the Tapus and Ultra Beasts back, ALMOST
 
On the Koko/Valiant theorymonning discussion, Koko will bring the true actual scariest set of valiant

No, the booster energy sets are shit, the true horror is the Expert Belt sets, Valiant does not lack power, can take a neutral hit, and punishes slow attempts are bringing it down, you need to have a plan to stall or out offense valiant, with U-turn support and the speed boost not requiring the item, it can use its massive coverage to dunk hard on most mons clean, faster than boosting with Calm Minds, thing is, you could also go with Calm Mind or Swords Dance to give even more power, and there, the game is over, you guys think valiant is good because mixed weird ass sets? You guys haven't seen shit, a well settled valiant out damages specs and band in this scenario, and frankly, makes the sweep more stylish

Honestly, this ALMOST makes me want to have the Tapus and Ultra Beasts back, ALMOST
THANK YOU! Finally, someone else who sees that Booster Energy is a bad pick for Valiant! (Among others as well.) The problem I have with Booster is that if you're forced out before you do anything meaningful, it's a wasted item. Unlike Roaring Moon, who gets a twofold benefit from Booster; Stat bonus AND Acrobatics boost. Pokemon like Valiant do not get this. Seeing Booster on Sandy Stonks makes me die a little on the inside, given that it's such a good Volt Switch pivot.
 
Bad news :/
Although we gathered enough players and mods to create a private room where we could have non-terra tournaments we were denied.
More info on a post on my profile, response and my rebuttal that has not been answered.

Anyway.
Just played some games.
I've been top 10, if not top 5, on the ladder for about a week now.
This meta is easy and broken so that's not saying much, I know.

Today I went on a tilt that started with:
First game, I mapped out my late game win and executed it.
Later on, I played the same team, not sure if some YT team or what but same mons.
Mapped out a similar win condition.
This time, however, opp had a different terra than the previous player, and won.

After that I just clicked buttons for a few more games and came here to give one final attempt at a logical conclusion, after my solution was outright denied.

When we map out our win conditions and prerequisites need to secure a victory, we have to account for various factors.
Terra adds too much variance.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Normal and Fire Dragonite.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Ground, Ice, Grass, etc Volcarona.
A player can't be expected to plan for both Fairy, Flying, Dark Kingambit
Can they? Technically on some level, if you really want to mental gymnastics an argument and reach for straws.
But even then, should they? No.

It's Schrodinger's Pokemon.
At one point in the game, your opponent might as well have 7-9 mons until revealed.

This is literally what regional forms are, often the same stats and similar design of the mon, the only thing that's changed is the typing and ability.
This makes it a new pokemon. Get it?

You can change your pokemon into another mon during a turn.

Read that again.

If I told someone in gen 6 or 7 that you could change your pokemon into another mon during a turn, they would laugh and say that's the stupidest thing they ever heard.

I was talking to a co-worker just now as I'm writing this and she wanted to know what it was all about.
I said lets play rock-paper-scissors.
She chose scissors and I chose paper, then I switched it to rock.
She said that's stupid, and I said yeah.

Very early into the terra debate, someone said, "we will never get a balanced meta, just constant tech chasing."

We are still, and will continue to see, new terra sets to counter other terra sets, and vice versa.

The rise of terra fire Dragonite is the current example.
And then we have terras that circle back around, such as terra flying King.

It's just a constant cycle of variance.

Variance alone is a major issue, but the power Terra adds makes great OU mons broken.
But we know that, these arguments have been said before.

Something I realized lately was that even goofy ass GameFreak knew Hidden Power was stupid af.
They knew that when designing mons, its asinine to give them access to a move of any typing.
Isn't that funny...

Gen 9, if played without the gimmick, has potential to be the greatest metagame of OU 6v6 singles.

We are actively being robbed of a great meta.


The skill gap is insane as well, average players get dusted when it comes to terra mind games, or not playing enough to know all the current techs, or just simply being overloaded with variance information.

These are the options left with after our valid application for a private room was denied.
Options:
1) Create a discord and gather players who want to play actual pokemon without the mechanic intended to make 9yo SV players go "Wow! Cool!"

2) Wait and pray for another terra suspect, but my open stance on this is, and no offense, the average players aren't knowledgeable to know how detrimental this mechanic is to a balanced meta, and thus terra will never be fully banned, at least by popular vote.

3) Simply play for fun using memes. Because that's all we're really doing right now. A terra meta inherently can not be a serious meta.

4) Appeal to the council. This is the council that gave no votes on QB Pao, which culminated to those same members voting on it's ban. I say that as an illustration, because at one point I was also on the fence about Pao. With hindsight though, it was broken the entire time. So, this is an illustration that given enough time, broken things become obvious. If there are members of our council that in March 2023 still think Terra is fine, then we have the wrong people in charge.

I gathered a list of 40+ players who were interested in the non-terra private room, including prominent mods and OU room owner.
I gathered this list within a day and a half.

There is a massive alienation of players who want to play a non-terra meta.

More and more players are considering themselves anti-terra.
Anyone who actually plays the meta, and understands the meta, can not reasonably argue that terra makes this meta more competitive and balanced.

If they say it does, then as I said, they don't understand what a balanced and competitive meta is.

I know council is busy, especially the ones with YT channels, and they are volunteers after all- I don't want to baffle any of them by accusing them of lack of transparency, but our growing community needs something concrete soon.

I tried helping them with the application for a private non-terra room, but as stated in my opening, it was denied.
So the ball is back in the council's court.

We either need a separate ladder, a private room, or another terra suspect.
The complete disregard for us as players is getting egregious.
The complete disregard for the integrity of OU 6v6 singles as a game and allowing this unprecedented mechanic to flip everything we know about win-conditions, late-game mapping, and team building on it's head is beyond egregious at this point.

Terra should not be the norm.

Terra players should be on this forum crying instead of me, they should be the ones begging for a private room.

I'm asking for an immediate council vote on Terra.
or
I'm asking for an immediate suspect test on Terra with a 88gxe minimum.

I won't get either. I know.
I'm putting it here in black and white so that in 5+ years we look back at how stupid terra was and how it ruined a generation, there was at least one player who tried everything they could to save it.
I hope this doesn’t come off as insulting, but you should definitely take a break from Pokemon/the Internet and seek mental help or therapist. Someone of us need breaks from games we like so they don’t frustrate us or become too boring.
 
I hope this doesn’t come off as insulting, but you should definitely take a break from Pokemon/the Internet and seek mental help or therapist. Someone of us need breaks from games we like so they don’t frustrate us or become too boring.
I agree with this. As someone who absolutely DESPISED the start of OU in SV, and was tilted damn near every match, you need to learn when it is time to take a step back and stop playing for a while. Play the physical game, if you have it. Draw a picture, make a model, go for a walk... Do something else. Come back later.

Seriously, start of OU was such a shitshow lol. Nothing but the box legendaries banned and Bundle just wrecking everything.
 
As an aside note: I want to talk about "Passive Defensive Cores" and what makes a defensive core passive.

I've had it explained to me, but by the way people keep slinging "passive mon" around, it feels like it has a totally different meaning. What makes them passive? Just because they lack in raw power, or lack a specific thing, that makes a Pokemon passive? Like Corvi or Gastro, they can absolutely hit things they check fairly hard (I'd say 30%+ is a good range for hitting "hard"), but they can't spread status. Toxapex doesn't hit hard, but CAN spread status. Clodsire does both to a decent degree. Yet, everyone always calls them passive and rags on them for it.

Is it because of Hyper Offense/Bulky Offense oriented playstyles? Having grown up with Gen 3 (and played 1 and 2), and starting into the online battle scene in Gen 4 with SkarmBliss being the best defensive core of the time, I struggle to really get why people rag on a core like CorvGastro when it does basically the same thing as SkarmBliss (covers each other's weaknesses, spreads hazards, both have recovery moves, but no clerics.)

The only other thing I can think of is the idea of "they get hit hard, forced to recover" being predominant in people's minds. But that applies to basically any Pokemon; you hit them hard and they either are forced to stay in and risk Scarf/Priority KOing them or run away (or heal.)

Ting-Lu is the most passive defensive Pokemon in the game, almost always running a set of EQ/Ruin, Spikes, Rocks, Whirlwind... Yet people line up to praise it like the 2nd coming of Mew.

I just don't get it, man. I really don't. People who say a strong defensive core of CorviGastro (which covers each other pretty much perfectly) is bad just baffle me as a Balance player.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
At this rate, we might need an unironically "How not to lose your shit when playing Pokémon" thread

I have to admit, I have lost my shit a lot of times before, a few weeks ago I was in gen 8, and I lost to 3 stall teams in a row with +100 turns each, and I was LIVID, boiling, and just took a break and came back 2 weeks later, or even a game in gen 7 where I got iron head flinched 4 times, and killed half my team

Sometimes you just get haxed out of something, sometimes you did a horrible mistake, and sometimes your opponent is a fucking smogon overlord smurfing, but you know what people? There's always something worse to lose, honestly, I have so many problems with myself and life that this doesn't even faze me half the time, and in my personal opinion I have horrible anger issues

get yourself a friend, some cool music, fun teams you wanna do, if you tried your best, then its okay, sometimes just do something else, like watching other stuff or actually going outside for once, and try again, eventually you'll do better, and if not, then it really is not the end of the world man, the only one who fucking hates you for sucking at this game is yourself, and your teacher if your taking classes and its been 10 years with no progress, but that's just a hypothetical

Or even just try something different, let me set up an example that happened to me

:Gholdengo: blocks :Corviknight: from defogging
everyone and their mother tells me to just "predict the evident switch in, U-turn and double switch back"
this logic doesn't do anything and makes the situation worse because you're taking way more entry hazard damage to just TRY to remove hazards, and that is not even a guaranteed, so I needed something better

Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Power Trip
- Roost
- Defog

This let me Bulk Up and Tera Dark Power Trip, 2HKO with just one boost and having a chance to OHKO with two, what happened? My life become more fun because I had actual fun, until I encountered a Skeleridge, but that's just death to all sweepers

At the end of the day, the only person who can pick you up is yourself, so get up, try something new, no pressure involved, and all that stuff

Ting-Lu is the most passive defensive Pokemon in the game, almost always running a set of EQ/Ruin, Spikes, Rocks, Whirlwind... Yet people line up to praise it like the 2nd coming of Mew.
Honestly, just drop spikes, they are not bad, but EQ + Ruination is way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy more useful on most situations, it gives you way less passivity, and you're more flexible on damage output, even protect can be useful in stall for those yummy leftovers recovery
 
At this rate, we might need an unironically "How not to lose your shit when playing Pokémon" thread

I have to admit, I have lost my shit a lot of times before, a few weeks ago I was in gen 8, and I lost to 3 stall teams in a row with +100 turns each, and I was LIVID, boiling, and just took a break and came back 2 weeks later, or even a game in gen 7 where I got iron head flinched 4 times, and killed half my team

Sometimes you just get haxed out of something, sometimes you did a horrible mistake, and sometimes your opponent is a fucking smogon overlord smurfing, but you know what people? There's always something worse to lose, honestly, I have so many problems with myself and life that this doesn't even faze me half the time, and in my personal opinion I have horrible anger issues

get yourself a friend, some cool music, fun teams you wanna do, if you tried your best, then its okay, sometimes just do something else, like watching other stuff or actually going outside for once, and try again, eventually you'll do better, and if not, then it really is not the end of the world man, the only one who fucking hates you for sucking at this game is yourself, and your teacher if your taking classes and its been 10 years with no progress, but that's just a hypothetical

Or even just try something different, let me set up an example that happened to me

:Gholdengo: blocks :Corviknight: from defogging
everyone and their mother tells me to just "predict the evident switch in, U-turn and double switch back"
this logic doesn't do anything and makes the situation worse because you're taking way more entry hazard damage to just TRY to remove hazards, and that is not even a guaranteed, so I needed something better

Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Power Trip
- Roost
- Defog

This let me Bulk Up and Tera Dark Power Trip, 2HKO with just one boost and having a chance to OHKO with two, what happened? My life become more fun because I had actual fun, until I encountered a Skeleridge, but that's just death to all sweepers

At the end of the day, the only person who can pick you up is yourself, so get up, try something new, no pressure involved, and all that stuff



Honestly, just drop spikes, they are not bad, but EQ + Ruination is way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy more useful on most situations, it gives you way less passivity, and you're more flexible on damage output, even protect can be useful in stall for those yummy leftovers recovery
I lol'd at that Skeledirge bit. As a Dirge player, watching people get greedy on setting up in front of me is a muy bueno feeling. Watching them roid up just to be no u'd into the floor.

Not even looking at using Ting-Lu, just using it as an example here. 90% of TLs I run into at the 1400 range is just that set. Max HP, Max SpDef, EQ/Ruin, Spikes, Rocks, Whirl. That's it. Most passive thing ever, and yet people goat it just because of how beefy it is. It doesn't even get reliable recovery, lmao.

Side note on the fun bit: I remember using Shed Tail Cyc + Moxie Loaded Dice Hera when that was legal. Boy howdy was that ever fun. Everyone in a UU Discord (when I was memeing without Cyc) called it shit and me shit for playing with it, yet I was out here bonking bugs left and right.
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
Not even looking at using Ting-Lu, just using it as an example here. 90% of TLs I run into at the 1400 range is just that set. Max HP, Max SpDef, EQ/Ruin, Spikes, Rocks, Whirl. That's it. Most passive thing ever, and yet people goat it just because of how beefy it is. It doesn't even get reliable recovery, lmao.
I mean, it is passive but its not a stall mon, its a BO mon that can be used in balance and stall, Whirlwind + Guaranteed chip (when it wants to land of course) + FAT means that you can and WILL stop set up sweepers and get something in, bro, recover/regenerator ting lu would be fucking nightmarish. And those teams can afford to run Wish Support or pair with teammates that can share the job and alleviate the pressure

If you want a user of Whirlwind that is not passive, you might not believe this, but :Iron moth: does actually learn it, I haven't actually tried, and it sounds like a cheese meme set, but hey, maybe you can have some fun with it
 
I personally think trying to define what makes a Pokemon passive gets muddy pretty fast and isn't much worth the trouble. Clodsire and Ting-Lu both have the job of staying in the field and refusing to go down while accruing damage over time, whether that's on Toxic or hazards and Whirlwind. Is that passive? They're doing damage. Is "progress" just the actual damage they do, or does forcing out something else and giving you an opening count as progress? If they are passive, does that mean they can't work on more aggressive teams while still fulfilling the same role?

Sub Dirge is a staple I always run, in no small part because Fuecoco is my baby boy and son. One time, I had to face a Curse Dondozo with him. I eventually won because I waited for Wave Crash and Rest to run out of PP, then switched and cleaned up. Were we being passive, or did I make progress because I was able to get a wincon out of that situation?

I dunno, maybe I just have a weird way of thinking about this kind of thing. But to me at least, I think the whole passive/wall/sits there and does nothing definitions only think of things in a narrow way. Just decide what "progress" would look like on your team and build Pokemon who are good at accomplishing that.

Also, stealing that Corviknight Power Trip idea. That's what I need in my life.
 
I mean, it is passive but its not a stall mon, its a BO mon that can be used in balance and stall, Whirlwind + Guaranteed chip (when it wants to land of course) + FAT means that you can and WILL stop set up sweepers and get something in, bro, recover/regenerator ting lu would be fucking nightmarish. And those teams can afford to run Wish Support or pair with teammates that can share the job and alleviate the pressure

If you want a user of Whirlwind that is not passive, you might not believe this, but :Iron moth: does actually learn it, I haven't actually tried, and it sounds like a cheese meme set, but hey, maybe you can have some fun with it
:totodiLUL: Whirlwind Iron Moth sounds like one hell of a thing to pull off. I've been using Dragon Tail Walking Wake with Expert Belt and it confuses the hell out of my opponents. I LOVE it.
I personally think trying to define what makes a Pokemon passive gets muddy pretty fast and isn't much worth the trouble. Clodsire and Ting-Lu both have the job of staying in the field and refusing to go down while accruing damage over time, whether that's on Toxic or hazards and Whirlwind. Is that passive? They're doing damage. Is "progress" just the actual damage they do, or does forcing out something else and giving you an opening count as progress? If they are passive, does that mean they can't work on more aggressive teams while still fulfilling the same role?

Sub Dirge is a staple I always run, in no small part because Fuecoco is my baby boy and son. One time, I had to face a Curse Dondozo with him. I eventually won because I waited for Wave Crash and Rest to run out of PP, then switched and cleaned up. Were we being passive, or did I make progress because I was able to get a wincon out of that situation?

I dunno, maybe I just have a weird way of thinking about this kind of thing. But to me at least, I think the whole passive/wall/sits there and does nothing definitions only think of things in a narrow way. Just decide what "progress" would look like on your team and build Pokemon who are good at accomplishing that.

Also, stealing that Corviknight Power Trip idea. That's what I need in my life.
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I look at Ting-Lu and see true passive; 3 slots dedicated to indirect chipping (hazards + whirlwind) with the four for something else. I look at Clod and I see a Rocks setter that also can spread Toxic or Yawn. I look at Gastro, or specifically my set, and I see "Garg is sad, non-Specs Dengo is sad, other Dengos get greedy then sad" and now "Obvious predictions on Wake makes Wake sad." 92 SpAtk on Gastro is nothing to sneeze at when you can fish for SpDef drops on Earth Power, and still have Surf as a backup. Corvi is a lot more passive than Gastro realistically is, but that's because Corvi has a touch of 4MSS; Drill Peck/Brave Bird (I prefer Drill to not lose my HP, thank you very much), Body Press, U-Turn, Roost, Defog, Bulk Up, Iron Defense, Iron Head... All great moves it wants to use, but doesn't have the slots to use them.

It's so wack, man. I don't get it. It feels like people slap the passive label onto a mon just because they don't like it/don't know how to best utilize it and call it a day.

Also I play Sub Dirge, too. But I'm not Sub Slack Off. I'm Sub 3 Attacks~
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
In my personal definition, a passive mon is mons that cannot do shit with brute force, but win via outlasting, consistent ball busting tactics, I'm gonna try to explain my personal reasoning with some examples

:Dugtrio: was a mon most famously appearing on stall teams, yet he is not a passive mon, it just so happens that he has the correct tools to help stall by tenfold

:Sylveon: for example in my book is not passive because Hyper Voice + 110 SpA + Pixelate, but many people call it passive due to her only being viewed as a Wish Pass mon

:Clefable: is a generally passive mon that only runs moonblast, what makes clefable insane its her insane durability, recover, magic guard, big ass move pool, meaning that, while not dishing damage it still doing stuff. But clef CAN potentially be active if given the correct set for it

:Toxapex: from gen 7 to gen 8 was technically passive in a sense that she only could spam Scald/Knock Off and stuff like toxic/Tspikes and haze/recover, yet scald alone made pex a burn generator, so it went from passive to ban worthy in multiple times, but this is a Scald thing and not a pex thing, prooff of this is gen 9 where pex is significantly less useful because it can hide from its status as a true passive mon anymore

:Blissey: is a truly passive mon, where her offensive capabilities are so trash that you need Seismic Toss

you have to think about not only its damage, but the emotional damage
 
In my personal definition, a passive mon is mons that cannot do shit with brute force, but win via outlasting, consistent ball busting tactics, I'm gonna try to explain my personal reasoning with some examples

:Dugtrio: was a mon most famously appearing on stall teams, yet he is not a passive mon, it just so happens that he has the correct tools to help stall by tenfold

:Sylveon: for example in my book is not passive because Hyper Voice + 110 SpA + Pixelate, but many people call it passive due to her only being viewed as a Wish Pass mon

:Clefable: is a generally passive mon that only runs moonblast, what makes clefable insane its her insane durability, recover, magic guard, big ass move pool, meaning that, while not dishing damage it still doing stuff. But clef CAN potentially be active if given the correct set for it

:Toxapex: from gen 7 to gen 8 was technically passive in a sense that she only could spam Scald/Knock Off and stuff like toxic/Tspikes and haze/recover, yet scald alone made pex a burn generator, so it went from passive to ban worthy in multiple times, but this is a Scald thing and not a pex thing

:Blissey: is a truly passive mon, where her offensive capabilities are so trash that you need Seismic Toss

you have to think about not only its damage, but the emotional damage
Gen 7-8 Pex I think comes closest to the platonic ideal of the passive blob of HP that does nothing and heals itself while preventing you from damaging it. Probably my least favorite design to come out of any game. At least Blissy is Wish passing or healing statuses.
 
Straying away from the theorymon a bit, I'd like to discuss one of the tier's most divisive top-tier offensive threats and one of the most nuanced Tera users right now: Volcarona. I just finished working on my Offensive Volc analysis (many thanks to the C&C team for their guidance, by the way) and I think there's honestly a lot more to discuss than what a simple analysis can do justice.


The Mon Itself

For well over a decade (feel old yet?), Volcarona's been doing several variations of the same thing: it presses Quiver Dance and then it sweeps if it doesn't bump into a bad matchup. Dubbed the "Matchup Moth" due to its ability to either win a game outright or find itself accomplishing little to nothing, Volcarona has always had its place in OU from its debut in Black and White because it combines the amazing Quiver Dance with its amazing stats, unique typing, strong STABs, good coverage, and excellent utility movepool including reliable recovery to pick and choose its checks and counters. Volcarona's only real selling point is its access to Quiver Dance, sure, but it's so good at utilizing this move that it could thrive even in the metagames that predated Heavy-Duty Boots, in spite of its crippling 4x Rock weakness.

Volcarona has been a hot topic in OU for pretty much all of its existence because of that "Matchup Moth" title: it has counterplay and it physically cannot circumvent all of said counterplay with a single set (it would most certainly get banned if it could), but it has the means of circumventing individual mons among said counterplay with some tweaks to its moveset and stat investment and if it has the right set for the right occasion it can and most certainly will sweep a team outright. It's challenging to build a team that handles all Volcarona sets, but it's challenging to build a team around Volcarona in the first place due to the amount of support it requires... well, the latter was much more true prior to the introduction of Heavy-Duty Boots, but Volcarona still needs its teammates to cover the matchups it can't cover.

Volcarona's typing is a mixed bag: it has some shortcomings in that it's weak to Stealth Rock and Rock-type attacks in general as well as Water and Flying, but it's also a Bug-type with a 4x resistance to Grass, a neutrality to Fire, Ice and Fairy resistances, and a resistance to Bug moves including U-Turn while also being a Fire-type that isn't weak to Ground and that resists Fighting. Bug/Fire really isn't bad. In fact, it's quite a strong defensive typing outside of that brutal Rock weakness. That plus Quiver Dance's SpDef boost plus Volcarona's native Flame Body to punish contact moves collectively make it a mon with quite a lot of good defensive utility despite being a mon with a major defensive shortcoming that it has to run an item to work around.

How Terastallization Changed Volcarona

Volcarona has always been limited by its coverage and its typing's weaknesses. It has to run Quiver Dance and a Fire STAB is necessary to deal with most Steel-types reliably, but Volcarona had to make a tough choice between Giga Drain, Psychic, and (while the move still existed) a couple of Hidden Power variants. HP Ground dealt with Heatran and some opposing Fire-types, but Psychic dealt with Toxapex and Fighting-types while Giga Drain dealt with bulky Waters. And no matter what set it ran, Volcarona had to feat Rock moves, Water moves, and (to some degree) extremely powerful physical attacks. But Terastallization fundamentally changes Volcarona in every way, offensively and defensively. This gen, Volcarona is debatably better than ever; that's no mean feat when it's so strong in BW OU, has Z-Moves at its disposal in SM OU, and has experienced a massive resurgence in viability in ORAS OU despite finishing that gen as a UUBL mon.

Volcarona doesn't have to play at an inherent disadvantage now that Tera is a part of the equation: offensive sets can expand their coverage with access to newfound STABs in Tera Blast, can buff their existing STABs even further, and can do all this while dramatically changing the defensive profile that Volcarona lives and dies by. And it can do this while still maintaining its niche as a strong Quiver Dance sweeper with a great Speed tier, respectable bulk, and good STABs.

Terastallization is also a countermeasure against Volcarona, though. Most notably, we've been seeing Kingambit and Volcarona playing a sort of cat-and-mouse game of Tera types to try to force an advantage against one-another in SPL. Tera Fire has quickly become one of Kingambit's best options, eclipsing Tera Flying, since it resists Volcarona's STABs and becomes immune to Burns from defensive sets' Will-o-Wisp and all sets' Flame Body. This adaptation to more conventional Tera-Grass Volcarona led to Volcarona adopting new Tera types specifically to beat Tera Fire Kingambit. The big one, of course, is Tera Ground alongside Tera Blast. Everyone expected this to be amazing in a meta with Heatran, but we aren't there yet; but Tera Ground Tera Blast still maintains a strong hit against Clodsire, Toxapex, and most opposing Fire-types. Tera Flying Kingambit can handle Tera Ground Tera Blast, sure, but it has to play a dangerous game of risking a Burn against other Volcarona sets.

Breaking Down the Tera Type Index:

Volcarona is not one-dimensional in its abuse of Terastallization, as the official Tera Type index reflects. To briefly go over what each of Volc's many, many, many Tera types do:

The Common Tera Types:
  • Grass, ft. Giga Drain: Grants Volcarona a crucial Ground resistance and gives it STAB Giga Drain. When run alongside Substitute and Giga Drain, Volcarona can PP Stall Clodsire's Recovers and outheal Substitute's damage thanks to that Earthquake resistance.
  • Ground, ft. Tera Blast: Turns Volcarona's major Rock weakness into a resistance, gives Volcarona an Electric immunity, and grants Volcarona a powerful STAB that handles Iron Moth, Clodsire, Toxapex, and most Fire-types including the aforementioned Tera Fire Kingambit designed to handle most Volcarona variants.
  • Fairy, with and without Tera Blast: It's a generally great defensive typing, especially on defensive sets with Wisp, but I actually think that Tera Fairy+Tera Blast on offensive sets deserves special mention as an underrated tech. I brought this up in my Analysis as a means of handling Dragon-types like Baxcalibur, Dragapult, Dragonite, and Garchomp, and I think this is very unexplored at the moment despite having a very real niche of taking out some of Volcarona's scarier offensive checks. Dragapult and Dragonite are very relevant targets, after all. Give this one a try!
The Situational (But Still Good) Tera Types:
  • Bug/Fire: Lumping these in together. Volcarona already has some pretty formidable STABs, so buffing them even further is always an option. Volcarona's typing as a whole is quite synergistic defensively, but getting rid of some of the dual typing's shortcomings can be useful. Removing its Water weakness with Tera Bug or its Flying weakness with Tera Fire has some situational defensive merit.
  • Psychic, ft. the move Psychic: Clodsire is much more threatened by Tera Psychic+Psychic, as it's a solid 2HKO. Volcarona can use this to muscle past many Skeledirge variants, and it maintains super effective hits against Fighting-types like Quaquaval and Iron Hands while still hitting Pex and Clodsire. There's a use case for Life Orb on this, and it might even be usable on Indeedee Psychic Terrain teams? It's still a good option in general.
  • Steel: Turning your mon into Registeel is kinda neat. A Poison immunity and Steel's amazing defensive profile can give Volcarona a lot more opportunities to set up a Quiver Dance or two.
  • Water: Turning your mon into Suicune iskinda neat. Newfound Water and Fire resistances and a generally-good defensive profile help Volcarona set up more easily. Maybe Tera Blast is worth considering to hit Fire-types (including opposing Volcarona) and Clodsire?
  • Rock, ft. Tera Blast: "I used the Volcarona to destroy the Volcarona." Hits Fire-types, Dragonite, and Baxcalibur very hard so it's more than just an anti-Volc tech, but if there's one thing Volcarona appreciates it's the opposing Volcarona being removed after the two engage in a Quiver Dance war that would typically depend on one of them critting the other.
In Short:

Volcarona is extremely polarizing right now, and for good reason. This is the first time in a very long time that the esteemed Matchup Moth can win pretty much all its bad matchups, albeit not with a single set, and the sheer unpredictability of Terastallization as a whole is put on full display with Volcarona specifically since it has a bare minimum of nine viable Tera types. Hell, I even think there's room for stuff like Tera Flying+Hurricane or Tera Electric should the metagame shift in that direction. But I can't help but feel as though it warrants more discussion than just "is it problematic?" since Volcarona, for how polarizing it is, has a lot of room for nuance and expression right now. I was very surprised to find that Tera Fairy+Tera Blast wasn't talked about a lot, but I opted to include it as a viable option on an offensive set because of how much potential merit it has offensively for how good it is defensively, and I quite like its role in this tier despite it being something to keep an eye on.

Discussion Points:

I'd like to propose a series of questions to anyone who would like to answer any or all of them:

What's your favorite Volcarona set right now? Bulky, 3-Attacks Offensive, Sub+Giga Drain, etc.

What Tera type do you prefer on your Volcarona sets?

What Tera type Volc could or does utilize well do you think is being underrated right now?

What teammates do you like running with your Volc currently?

If you build teams that Volc doesn't fit on, what are you running to keep its many sets in check?
 
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