Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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The point is more that Kyurem-B is not indicated by anything to be coming into the game at such a point where it is relevant beyond a point of reference from previous meta games.

With that said from that angle, I disagree with at least half of the points you are making in favor of Kyu-B in this particular post, primarily in regards to the move discussion and item reliance. Would also cite that Bax's immunity to burns is a massive Boon on a Physical attacker

There is no scenario under which I would consider Outrage superior to Glaive Rush as a Physical Dragon STAB, because Outrage locking you in yields a much worse drawback in the event it works, since Kyurem is forced into the move multiple times even without concerns for Confusion. Bax's extra damage taken only persists until its next action (which STAB Ice Shard could help circumvent without totally forfeiting momentum), while retaining the ability to switch-out or attack with another move to avoid limiting responses any more than necessary. Outrage even when it works will leave you stuck throwing the same move out, making the response significantly easier and exploitable on Band/AoA sets, while Dragon Claw incurs a drop in power that keeps Bax decently ahead on comparable items.

252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mew: 160-190 (39.7 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Reliable Ice STAB is moot, with Kyu-B only possessing Icicle Spear for reliable Physical STAB, a move Bax also has access to if you don't want Icicle Crash (the move most prescribed for Kyu-B before anyway) and in fact seems to run as a rogue option with Loaded Dice in some teams.

Kyurem-B's movepool is only particularly better than Bax if running mixed sets. Physically they both are going to run into some mild obstacle with limited move options (Kyurem needs EP Mixed to hit Steels compared to Bax EQ, while Bax lacks SE Fusion Bolt Coverage for stuff like Corviknight or particularly fat Waters).

Lack of mixed sets, a worse speed, and marginally lower Bulk are fair points but the others are not particularly strong points when making the comparison, nor do they forward the discussion when people are focusing on Bax as a 1-2 trick pony whose 1-2 tricks is extremely hard wallbreaking anyway rather than seeking variety.
Not helping matters is that if move transfers are no longer possible, Kyurem-B will lose both Icicle Spear and Roost, which will put it in a notably worse position than Bax.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
Alright so right now im bored so im gonna make a question for everybody (also im on cellphone so sorry if bad grammar)

Since I already asked for your favorite wallbreakers, what are your favorite sweepers and cleaners

For sweepers, My favorites are Volcarona, agility Iron Moth, curse Garganacl, bulk up tusk, DDance Bax and most importantly of all, BU Power Trip corviknight

And as cleaners, for me, its either Scarf Meowscarada or Scarf Gholdengo
Bulk Up Tusk is by far my favourite sweeper, because of how easily it can become a menace and turn the tides of the game. I also like Volcarona and Moon, although the latter is a bit harder to pull off, especially due to how popular Gambit is. Hatterene is also a very fun mon to sweep with, but it's not really its main role so it probably doesn't count.

As for the cleaners, Choice Banded Pult is amazing in the late game, while Valiant with Booster Energy/Specs and Scarf Gholdengo are staples that always put some work regardless of the game.
 
I don't know how to feel about Suicraptor. Sun gets a day in the... uh sun, but brokens gonna broken and bulky/fast/hard hitting dragon water sounds busted on paper (but ghold is even more busted on paper and in practice is a lot less unmanageable than you would thibk)

[QUOTE="658Greninja, post: 9531131, member: 48833

Edit: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-7570-new-tiering-survey.3710915/post-9478697 gonna just drop this in case you want more spikes counterplay
[/QUOTE]

Nothing says "Not a broken mechanic" like "Forcing your opponent into suboptimal counterplay."
 
Alright so right now im bored so im gonna make a question for everybody (also im on cellphone so sorry if bad grammar)

Since I already asked for your favorite wallbreakers, what are your favorite sweepers and cleaners

For sweepers, My favorites are Volcarona, agility Iron Moth, curse Garganacl, bulk up tusk, DDance Bax and most importantly of all, BU Power Trip corviknight

And as cleaners, for me, its either Scarf Meowscarada or Scarf Gholdengo
Volcarona is my preferred sweeper, but I also like surprising people with Bulk Up/Rapid Spin Great Tusk to just cleave through teams before anyone can fire off a stray Water move.

As for cleaners, nothing has ever been more reliable than Booster Energy Iron Valiant. See here where I win a match I had absolutely no right to.
 
Alright so right now im bored so im gonna make a question for everybody (also im on cellphone so sorry if bad grammar)

Since I already asked for your favorite wallbreakers, what are your favorite sweepers and cleaners

For sweepers, My favorites are Volcarona, agility Iron Moth, curse Garganacl, bulk up tusk, DDance Bax and most importantly of all, BU Power Trip corviknight

And as cleaners, for me, its either Scarf Meowscarada or Scarf Gholdengo
Bulk up Tusk is my fav sweeper, opponents just panic after the first bulk up and every turn is a 50-50 on your favor where you can if they don't make the right plays quickly Tusk will just win.
Scizor and Scarf Moon did s great job in the mate during my reqs run too. Kingambit in theory is cool, but everyone is preparing to beat it so it doesn't work that well for me because I like to use tera early and Kingambit loves late game teras.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
In my opinion and personal experience, I can naturally and effortlessly tend to check Kingambit without too much though and effort, but that's because I generally put a mandatory tusk and pack some checks that go well with each other. Kingambit also dislikes that the 2 best defoggers in the meta, Scizor and Talonflame, generally pack stuff to hit it. It also hates that Garganacl is so busted, its prediction reliant and sometimes tera dependant, psyspam getting more popular by the second doesn't help

If you think about it this way, the meta is not kind to this thing, yet It's VERY EASY FOR THE KINGAMBIT USER to just get a SD and basically re-enact the one piece memes and sweep all day, imagine if gambit could still use Knock Off

that's how busted this thing is, but to be honest, I'm not complaining, quite the contrary
THE ONE PIECE
THE ONE PIECE IS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLL
 
Alright so right now im bored so im gonna make a question for everybody (also im on cellphone so sorry if bad grammar)

Since I already asked for your favorite wallbreakers, what are your favorite sweepers and cleaners

For sweepers, My favorites are Volcarona, agility Iron Moth, curse Garganacl, bulk up tusk, DDance Bax and most importantly of all, BU Power Trip corviknight

And as cleaners, for me, its either Scarf Meowscarada or Scarf Gholdengo
My favorite cleaner:

Expert Belt Modest Iron Valiant.

Yes, that is a set, and it is glorious. Everything drops... Except high health Skeledirge. Oops. Though, you could probably slot Shadow Ball in.

My favorite wallbreaker:

Mega Mewtwo Y. Not sure why I don't see this very often, it has like no switch in in this metagame.

My favorite sweeper:

Hydreigon Nasty Plot is so much fun to use.
 
I do think Wake decreases Hydreigon's viability, but its not only Wake. Pult is another Mon that SPAMs DMs, while doing many other things. There is also Roaring Moon, who shares typing and is better than Hydreigon, though its physical.

Neither Pult, nor Wake have Nasty Plot though. Pult has U-Turn, Wake not. Neither Pult, nor Wake have Stealth Rock. So, Hydreigon should be running one of these sets:
Rocks + 3 Attacks (one can be U-Turn).
NP + 3 Attacks (preferably with LO, Tera Steel is probably optimal for this one).
NP + Sub + 2 Attacks (Tera Ghost, Poison and Steel are good). One of the attacks has to be Dark Pulse, the other would be one of DM, Surf, Flamethrower and Flash Cannon.

Its a decent Mon, but it only breaks specific type of teams (slow balances) and has much competition. Its not only Wake, but Wake does contribute to the decreased usage as another much stronger Dragon. Using Nasty Plot is harder than just clicking Specs Draco Meteor and watching something die.
I should add specs to this list. This makes use of its dark STAB, using Dark Pulse, Draco, Flash Cannon and Focus Blast. This crushes balance teams. Ting is 2HKO’d by specs focus blast, while the rest of balance fall either to Tera Dark Specs STAB dark pulse, or Draco meteor and flash cannon. Sure, it lacks u-turn but when well-played it crushes the most common team style easily
 
Favourite sets right now?

mine is the nuisance meowscarada :meowscarada: set, try to get it in position and spam knock off.

I’ve been using Tera dark a lot more recently and it can become very annoying if your opponent is on the back foot. With Tera, it can do things like OHKO cinderace and 2hko standard (timid) bulkarona Volcarona 100% of the time, even if you get burned. Note: the slower bold bulkarona has a chance to beat the 1v1 matchup with a burn. At least it’s easy to predict the set based on the damage percentage.

it’s very annoying to deal with, there’s a finite list of knock off absorbers, and all hate dealing with the hazard support,

the set:

:meowscarada:
Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Flower Trick
- Taunt

sample replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1823359171

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1819169506-gp3r02u5sl70vqts5hs7qccll65ich6pw

on the topic of the common switchins:

:corviknight: corviknight is possibly the most common default answer, it can sometimes be 2HKOd if there are hazards or it has previously taken rocky helmet damage on a u turn. Otherwise it’s a 50/50 on taunt or switch out.

:kingambit: kingambit is the hardest check to this set, as it takes negligible damage. However if it attacks back it hates rocky helmet support, and coming in regularly on hazards sucks for gambit. Basically dealing with this check requires hit and run tactics and plan for either an attack or a double switch if they know you have rocky helmet support

:amoonguss: amoonguss can be 2HKOd if you plan out the play by play correctly. You’ll need hazard support. If you can’t get amoonguss into 2HKO range with your calculations, then it’s gonna be a problem, as once it’s item-less it has an easier time absorbing attacks.

:dragonite: :hydreigon: :roaring moon: these three are bundled together as they are all offensive switch ins. If dragonite is one of them, it loses its ability to keep multi scale up with hazards. Hydreigon can absorb the attacks, but then there’s 50/50 on taunt or switch out. Roaring moon is typically a one time answer, rocky helmet support can negate it.

:iron valiant: booster energy iron valiant is a one-time hard counter. It’s pretty good tho, especially if you’re switching out and it gets a +1 calm mind. No real way to deal with this outside of trying to predict it switching in, etc.



On the topic of the common “fairy type” Tera and other Tera resists:

this is a common way to neutralize meowscarada. If you’re concerned, try and scout before committing to knocking off that skeledirge, sucker punching that scarfed gholdengo, or flower tricking that 45% dondozo, etc.
 
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Favourite sets right now?

mine is the nuisance meowscarada :meowscarada: set, try to get it in position and spam knock off.

I’ve been using Tera dark a lot more recently and it can become very annoying if your opponent is on the back foot. With Tera, it can do things like OHKO cinderace and 2hko standard (timid) bulkarona Volcarona 100% of the time, even if you get burned. Note: the slower bold bulkarona has a chance to beat the 1v1 matchup with a burn. At least it’s easy to predict the set based on the damage percentage.

it’s very annoying to deal with, there’s a finite list of knock off absorbers, and all hate dealing with the hazard support,

the set:

:meowscarada:
Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Flower Trick
- Taunt

sample replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1823359171

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1819169506-gp3r02u5sl70vqts5hs7qccll65ich6pw

on the topic of the common switchins:

:corviknight: corviknight is possibly the most common default answer, it can sometimes be 2HKOd if there are hazards or it has previously taken rocky helmet damage on a u turn. Otherwise it’s a 50/50 on taunt or switch out.

:kingambit: kingambit is the hardest check to this set, as it takes negligible damage. However if it attacks back it hates rocky helmet support, and coming in regularly on hazards sucks for gambit. Basically dealing with this check requires hit and run tactics and plan for either an attack or a double switch if they know you have rocky helmet support

:amoonguss: amoonguss can be 2HKOd if you plan out the play by play correctly. You’ll need hazard support. If you can’t get amoonguss into 2HKO range with your calculations, then it’s gonna be a problem, as once it’s item-less it has an easier time absorbing attacks.

:dragonite: :hydreigon: :roaring moon: these three are bundled together as they are all offensive switch ins. If dragonite is one of them, it loses its ability to keep multi scale up with hazards. Hydreigon can absorb the attacks, but then there’s 50/50 on taunt or switch out. Roaring moon is typically a one time answer, rocky helmet support can negate it.

:iron valiant: booster energy iron valiant is a one-time hard counter. It’s pretty good tho, especially if you’re switching out and it gets a +1 calm mind. No real way to deal with this outside of trying to predict it switching in, etc.



On the topic of the common “fairy type” Tera and other Tera resists:

this is a common way to neutralize meowscarada. If you’re concerned, try and scout before committing to knocking off that skeledirge, sucker punching that scarfed gholdengo, or flower tricking that 45% dondozo, etc.
Yeah, I have been running this set too and really like it. I normally opt for Spikes over Taunt though since, as you mentioned, most switch ins don't like dealing with Hazard support and Meow can often set them up itself quite well by forcing stuff like Gholdengo out. Pairs well with Gholdengo to put Corv in an uncomfortable position. Another underrated benefit is that Sucker Punch becomes really strong priority with the Black Glasses boost, knocking key threats like Floatzel and Scovillan from lower ranges.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator

Decidueye has been officially freed, likely will go live on Showdown by tonight or tomorrow. Will it be good in OU? no, no it won't, but we can try!
It has the utility but the bulk and typing is just not there. Gambit walls it, Tusk knocks it, it doesn’t do any meaningful dmg to Chomp, Volc scares it, forced out by Ghold if it doesn’t click Shackle on the switch. The sad thing is though this is a better defogger in the meta than Corv, but so is Oricorio and we know how thats going.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Rilla might have been nerfed but Grassy Terrain is still the best one. Think about how many mons would benefit from a good setter. Tusks, Skele, Meow, Gambit, Ghold, Pex, Dozo, Volc, Moth, Garg, etc. Even if it ends up losing Grassy Glide, it still has boosted Wood Hammers, U-Turn, and Knock Off. Tera also can shed off its defensive typing or make its STABs even better.
I think Rillaboom losing Grassy Glide is a huge downfall of it, yes it's THE only real setters (of Grassy Terrain) so there will definitely always be a place for it in the meta, but realistically Grassy Glide in Gen 8 OU was a must. Now you're forced to run Drum Beating or Wood Hammer or Bullet Seed (With Loaded Dice could be a good tech). I'm probably most excited for ANY Fairy type so I'm fine with whatever stays (Magearna, Enamorus, Enamorus-Therian) the meta is in dire need of a fairy stable that has some sort of bulk to it or Scream Tail will be a OU mon (Which imo it's starting to become with all these Sun teams).
 
I'm currently too busy right now to make yet another essay about Sylveon, can somebody do it for me please?
No?
Okay
i gotchu

Sylveon @ Leftovers / HDB
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Hyper Voice
- Protect / CM / Yawn
- Tera Blast / CM / Yawn

this set provides sylv with some comfy defenses that allow it to tank hits from some ou staples (and check even more mons with tera fire) and wish pass to its teammates.

4 SpA Tera Fire Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 204-240 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fire Sylveon: 60-71 (15.2 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (scarf)
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 384-452 (132.8 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Tera Fire Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 216-254 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(phys corv)

the calcs above prove my point exactly, checking gholdengo and valiant in the right circumstances is a pretty big deal against big meta game threats, and while most physical attackers can check sylv pretty easily with its low base defenses a lot of stuff doesn’t want to switch in on that nasty ass hyper voice

TLDR sylv is pretty good go try it
 
Decid is RU at best, MAYBE UU in this limited dex, but I'm looking forward to trying it in OU since it does look to have some nice traits.
 
I should add specs to this list. This makes use of its dark STAB, using Dark Pulse, Draco, Flash Cannon and Focus Blast. This crushes balance teams. Ting is 2HKO’d by specs focus blast, while the rest of balance fall either to Tera Dark Specs STAB dark pulse, or Draco meteor and flash cannon. Sure, it lacks u-turn but when well-played it crushes the most common team style easily
I mean, you can use it as Specs, but why would I do that when Pult and Wake exist? Even Specs Dragonite in Rain looks more attractive to me than Specs Hydreigon.
Hydreigon should be using the things that make it different from other Dragons in OU, those being either Nasty Plot or Stealth Rock.
 
Hello everyone! With Scarlet and Violet finally being released, you all are free to start discussing the SV OU metagame here! Everything you need should be found in the data mine resources below. I will also list things in a similar manner to the role compendium to help distinguish potential roles. I'll try to keep it updated as we get more information. Enjoy!

Datamine Resources:

Part 1 of Moveset Listings (Pokemon Gens 1-5)
Part 2 of Moveset Listings (Pokemon Gens 6-9)

Amazing Spreadsheet by RoiDadadou that includes:

- New Moves
- New Abilities
- Mechanics Info
- Deleted Moves
- Changes to Moves
- Changes to Pokemon (stats/abilities/moves)
- New Items
Meowscarada
Skeledirge
Quaquaval
Oinkologne
Dudunsparce
Spidops
Lokix
Rabsca
Houndstone
Espartha
Farigiraf
Wugtrio
Dondozo
Veluza
Palafin
Arboliva
Scovillain
Bellibolt
Revavroom
Orthworm
Maushold
Cetitan
Baxcalibur
Tatsugiri
Cyclizar
Pawmot
Kilowattrel
Bombirdier
Squawkabilly
Flamigo
Klawf
Garganacl
Glimmora
Grafaiai
Dachsbun
Mabosstiff
Brambleghast
Gholdenghoul
Great Tusk
Brute Bonnet
Sandy Shocks
Scream Tail
Flutter Mane
Slither Wing
Roaring Moon
Iron Treads
Iron Moth
Iron Hands
Iron Jugulis
Iron Thorns
Iron Bundle
Iron Valiant
Ting-Lu
Chien-Pao
Wo-Chien
Chi-Yu
Tinkaton
Armarouge
Ceruledge
Toedscruel
Kingambit
Clodsire
Annihilape
Tauros (Paldean)
Tauros (Fire)
Tauros (Water)
I encourage you all to check the Spreadsheet as it is very well organized and includes everything new in a single convenient location. Aside from that, I will go ahead and list fully evolved mons in a Role Compendium format as I did last year below:

Entry Hazards:

Stealth Rock:
Spikes:
Toxic Spikes:
Toxic Debris(ability that triggers Toxic Spikes):
Sticky Web:

Hazard Removal:

Defog:
Rapid Spin:
Tidy Up:

Setup Sweepers/Breakers:

Bulk Up:
Dragon Dance:
Swords Dance:
Calm Mind:
Nasty Plot:
Quiver Dance:
Shell Smash:
Belly Drum:
Coil:

Weather:

Rain:
Sand:
Snow:
Sun:

Limited Distribution:

Knock Off:
I know no one will notice this post but if I had made it I would have put status moves (especially toxic)
 
i gotchu

Sylveon @ Leftovers / HDB
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Hyper Voice
- Protect / CM / Yawn
- Tera Blast / CM / Yawn

this set provides sylv with some comfy defenses that allow it to tank hits from some ou staples (and check even more mons with tera fire) and wish pass to its teammates.

4 SpA Tera Fire Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 204-240 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fire Sylveon: 60-71 (15.2 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (scarf)
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 384-452 (132.8 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Tera Fire Sylveon Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 216-254 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(phys corv)

the calcs above prove my point exactly, checking gholdengo and valiant in the right circumstances is a pretty big deal against big meta game threats, and while most physical attackers can check sylv pretty easily with its low base defenses a lot of stuff doesn’t want to switch in on that nasty ass hyper voice

TLDR sylv is pretty good go try it
Two things
1 specs exists ,it’s kinda funny
2 your gholdengo calcs don’t account for the SpA drop
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
if walking wake avoids the banhammer, does that mean that there will not be a suspect test on garganacl?
(I don't think that garganacl is as much of an issue now that walking wake is around).
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
decidueye just got released.
I think that this pokemon does have a niche in OU as a low-budget cyclizar thanks to its access to u-turn, knock off and defog allowing it to function as a role-supressor. (cyclizar has rapid spin instead of defog).
also it is both a ghost type and a grass type meaning that it can block great-tusk's rapid spin and hit it back super effectively with grass stab.

what set do you people reccomend?
 
Decidueye @ Choice Band
Ability: Long Reach
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass / Ghost / ???
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit Shackle

just theory crafting as of now since I haven’t been able to test any real games with it yet. seems like a pretty competent band user since it’s speed is In the weird range where even with scarf it’s not as fast as some other scarfers that beat it. I ran enough speed to creep non scarf tusk since that seems like this sets main appeal, you also creep bulky air balloon gholdengo

Long reach also seems really good for a band set, as you aren’t getting screwed by rocky helmet chip meaning you can pretty easily knock on stuff switching in like corv
 
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decidueye just got released.
I think that this pokemon does have a niche in OU as a low-budget cyclizar thanks to its access to u-turn, knock off and defog allowing it to function as a role-supressor. (cyclizar has rapid spin instead of defog).
also it is both a ghost type and a grass type meaning that it can block great-tusk's rapid spin and hit it back super effectively with grass stab.

what set do you people reccomend?
Nice comparison, but you sort of forgot this one move Cycli had that was the main reason it was viable and Decid is completely lacking
 
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