Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I don't really have a sway either way regarding tera and potentially banning it, but one reason why I can see tera staying is that I don't believe it will be as unpredictable over time. Once the meta settles and common sets start being well.... more common, many won't deviate from the recommended tera type unless it fits their team comp better.

Not sure if this is the best example, but if Roaring Moon wanted to resist fairies to sweep, it would opt for fire, poison, or steel. But realistically, steel is the best one due it just being an objectively better defensive typing than fire or poison. Of course it can pivot into more offensive roles like Ground tera for EQ boost or Flying for acrobatics. Dyna was a lot more unpredictable because max move effects cover a wider variety of game mechanics like trapping, weather, terrain, and z-move like power.

I think the discussion will ultimately boil down to whether the prediction game will become too much. Personally for me, I don't find tera strong enough to sway a game as much as other folks previously has said. It can definitely push some mons to the broken territory but I find that to be a symptom of the mon and its ability to take advantage of tera rather than tera being the broken element.
 
very curious to see what's the council thought on tera. I missed the mega era it would be nice to have some sort of gimmick that's allowed since I came in on gen 8 and Dynamax was obviously to Overpowered. Everyone is saying tera is too broken tho so I guess its getting banned evauntually. Just thought I add my opinion as a casual Smogon user
 
I don't really have a sway either way regarding tera and potentially banning it, but one reason why I can see tera staying is that I don't believe it will be as unpredictable over time. Once the meta settles and common sets start being well.... more common, many won't deviate from the recommended tera type unless it fits their team comp better.

Not sure if this is the best example, but if Roaring Moon wanted to resist fairies to sweep, it would opt for fire, poison, or steel. But realistically, steel is the best one due it just being an objectively better defensive typing than fire or poison. Of course it can pivot into more offensive roles like Ground tera for EQ boost or Flying for acrobatics. Dyna was a lot more unpredictable because max move effects cover a wider variety of game mechanics like trapping, weather, terrain, and z-move like power.

I think the discussion will ultimately boil down to whether the prediction game will become too much. Personally for me, I don't find tera strong enough to sway a game as much as other folks previously has said. It can definitely push some mons to the broken territory but I find that to be a symptom of the mon and its ability to take advantage of tera rather than tera being the broken element.
i think the main thing is while you can just do the stuff that works, eventually stuff will counter the stuff that works, so people will find counters for the counters. theres just too many options to actually feasibly cover with 6 pokemon, and if you tera the wrong thing you just get matchuped which isn't very competitive or fun.
 

Finchinator

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very curious to see what's the council thought on tera. I missed the mega era it would be nice to have some sort of gimmick that's allowed since I came in on gen 8 and Dynamax was obviously to Overpowered. Everyone is saying tera is too broken tho so I guess its getting banned evauntually. Just thought I add my opinion as a casual Smogon user
There is no clear consensus on it yet, but a Policy Review and Overused subforum thread on the topic to advance discussions will likely be coming later this week. We hope to hear from as many people as we can and keep an open mind for the time being.
 
I've been at work all day and quoted several times. Someone said that it's hard for a new player to read a line that explains the proposals on limiting Tera and that's bullshit. If you can read what Endless Battle Clause is then you can read a quick line about Tera. The bit about the proposal for Swift Swim in BW was awful because Drizzle was clearly busted and there was no sane way of keeping it. Your entire team will be stacked with ways to nuke the enemy with your boosted STAB and that applied to one play style, not a mechanic that every Mon can access nor one that would be limited to a designated Mon. The comparison is not good

This game is gonna be around for three or four years, there is plenty of time to work it out instead of nitpicking about what a new player has to read or how BW is a dumpster. What a new player has to read is not a good point in any capacity and the only time I've heard that brought up is when people say shit like "Ok Reshiram in OU but it loses Draco, Blue Flare, Flame Charge, no Specs or Scarf, etc" which had always been a strawman for people who loath the idea of a complex ban. It's ridiculous and anyone who types something similar should be ashamed. BW is apparently set in stone for weather in it's cases but this meta isn't from 2011 and is a few days old. SwSh was shaped by it's suspect tests for Mons like Kyu and it still has every opportunity to be worked on. The fault for old metas being stale and unmoving for policy change is on the players who stuck around and didn't lobby enough for change and discussion with their respective councils and suspects. There is every chance to work out Tera. The decision isn't gonna be set in stone and more tests can be done til it feels alright or it's just too much. Patience is a virtue

I am def wrong about the Booster Energy item, I wish I didn't type that earlier cuz it's a bad idea. Most Mons that take advantage of it have to either commit super hard to using it or their name is Flutter Mane and they're already bonkers with any item. Booster is cool
 
Anyone that ever says Tera is as bad as Dynamax is crazy. The whole reason Dynamax was stupid was because it had a bunch of arbitrary and invisible gimmicks attached to it like breaking Choice/Encore-locks and the plethora of random immunities (i.e. phazing, weight moves) it granted. The closest you can compare Tera and Dynamax is in the application of Tera to deny revenge kills as Dynamax's double HP boost was used in an identical manner. Of course, this is also arguably the most broken part of using Tera.

I enjoy Tera, it has room for smart teambuilding and smart play. One example that comes to mind is a Sun team I fought neglecting to preserve their Tera for Roaring Moon to instead use it to deny my Glimmora 2HKOing Torkoal and getting my hazards spun away off my Sash. Denying hazard pressure was a far greater strategic gain than tunnel visioning on "Tera the sweeper" and thats something that Dynamax always lacked. When I saw that surprise Tera Normal Rapid Spin I never saw coming KO Glimmora I didn't feel like I'd been sacked by some bullshit mechanic, I felt like I had been genuinely outplayed by a superior player.

It's kinda frustrating because Tera is overall enjoyable imo and I wish it had a place in competitive but despite being much tamer than Dynamax it still just has one too many strengths. If only Game Freak would rein in their shiny new mechanics the tiniest amount maybe we could keep them. There is SOMETHING there and I wish we could grasp it.
 
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Have you guys tried to toy around with Brambleghast yet? Because this thing could have a bit of potential by virtue of it having a base 115 Atk and having access to Infiltrator to hit through screens and subs
 
What Should Be Done With Terastallization?

Terastallization is the defining "Generational Gimmick" of Gen IX. In my opinion, it's an interesting mechanic that affords enormous latitude for creativity in teambuilding. However, people are also right for saying that it may potentially be unbalanced and/or uncompetitive. This mechanic does greatly increase matchup volatility and has potential to completely invalidate the concept of traditional "checks and counters." Even though I think the mechanic is interesting, I do think that completely unfettered access to Terastallization is probably bad for the metagame. Thus far, I've seen the following solutions proposed by various players:

1. Ban Terastallization

This is the simplest solution, and while Tera is certainly a fun and interesting mechanic, I wouldn't necessarily feel too bad about seeing it go if the result is a more competitive metagame. This would return the metagame more towards a Gen 8 feel, which many players are far more comfortable with.

2. Have a separate "Tera" ladder

This would be a compromise solution with 1) and possibly 3), where Tera is banned on the main ladder but a separate ladder exists where players can still try out the mechanic if they so desire. If Tera indeed turns out to be an uncompetitive mechanic, a solution could be to disallow it on the main ladder but still give players that want to try it out the chance to use it in a side metagame. This comes at a cost of potentially splitting the playerbase, but I'm sure players who love the game would probably play both metagames. I think it's always nice to see novelty and playing the same meta over and over gets stale for me.

3. Reveal Tera-types at team preview

I've suggested this, as have many others, and I think it would certainly help reign in the unpredictability of the mechanic greatly. I think Tera would be far more manageable with this information. With Tera-types revealed at preview, a player can't just Tera-Fairy their DD Dragapult in the mirror match and 6-0 the opponent's team. Granted, this may not necessarily be a perfect solution, since, as some have pointed out, it can still introduce awkward 50/50 situations whether the opponent Teras or not. Also with some Tera abusers like Palafin you know what the Tera-type will be 99% of the time but that doesn't necessarily make it any easier to deal with.

I don't think Tera is as over-the-top busted as Dynamax (which was deemed to be an AG level strategy alongside Mega Rayquaza and Baton Pass chains). It's probably ok to at least give it a fair shake in the first few weeks of the meta. Of course, any decision regarding this mechanic shouldn't be made lightly and the playerbase as a whole should try to come to a consensus. I'm sure there are proposals that I haven't covered. Everyone is welcome to suggest their ideas.
 
My initial impression of tera is that it is definitely really interesting and cool right now and I wish it could stick around long term, but I just can't imagine its possible to develop any kind of consistent competitive meta with it as is.

How do you even begin to actually approach team building and preparing for anything when any mon can permanently change its typing and gain a new stab type or extra boost on current stab at any point in a match? I think people are used to the initial meta in any gen being a shit show where everyone is just trying to overpower everyone with the best threats, so right now its effect on the meta might not stand out as much since the meta would be goofy now anyways, but after the novelty of the new toy meta wears off I think its going to be too much and not really manageable.

I would be cool with just banning or altering it sooner rather than later even though its fun right now because it seems like a waste to spend much time evaluating things like what to ban in the current meta when the entire dynamic is probably going to change eventually before too long anyways.
 
What Should Be Done With Terastallization?

Terastallization is the defining "Generational Gimmick" of Gen IX. In my opinion, it's an interesting mechanic that affords enormous latitude for creativity in teambuilding. However, people are also right for saying that it may potentially be unbalanced and/or uncompetitive. This mechanic does greatly increase matchup volatility and has potential to completely invalidate the concept of traditional "checks and counters." Even though I think the mechanic is interesting, I do think that completely unfettered access to Terastallization is probably bad for the metagame. Thus far, I've seen the following solutions proposed by various players:

1. Ban Terastallization

This is the simplest solution, and while Tera is certainly a fun and interesting mechanic, I wouldn't necessarily feel too bad about seeing it go if the result is a more competitive metagame. This would return the metagame more towards a Gen 8 feel, which many players are far more comfortable with.

2. Have a separate "Tera" ladder

This would be a compromise solution with 1) and possibly 3), where Tera is banned on the main ladder but a separate ladder exists where players can still try out the mechanic if they so desire. If Tera indeed turns out to be an uncompetitive mechanic, a solution could be to disallow it on the main ladder but still give players that want to try it out the chance to use it in a side metagame. This comes at a cost of potentially splitting the playerbase, but I'm sure players who love the game would probably play both metagames. I think it's always nice to see novelty and playing the same meta over and over gets stale for me.

3. Reveal Tera-types at team preview

I've suggested this, as have many others, and I think it would certainly help reign in the unpredictability of the mechanic greatly. I think Tera would be far more manageable with this information. With Tera-types revealed at preview, a player can't just Tera-Fairy their DD Dragapult in the mirror match and 6-0 the opponent's team. Granted, this may not necessarily be a perfect solution, since, as some have pointed out, it can still introduce awkward 50/50 situations whether the opponent Teras or not. Also with some Tera abusers like Palafin you know what the Tera-type will be 99% of the time but that doesn't necessarily make it any easier to deal with.

I don't think Tera is as over-the-top busted as Dynamax (which was deemed to be an AG level strategy alongside Mega Rayquaza and Baton Pass chains). It's probably ok to at least give it a fair shake in the first few weeks of the meta. Of course, any decision regarding this mechanic shouldn't be made lightly and the playerbase as a whole should try to come to a consensus. I'm sure there are proposals that I haven't covered. Everyone is welcome to suggest their ideas.
I like number 2, maybe that should have been done with dmax as well
 
What Should Be Done With Terastallization?

Terastallization is the defining "Generational Gimmick" of Gen IX. In my opinion, it's an interesting mechanic that affords enormous latitude for creativity in teambuilding. However, people are also right for saying that it may potentially be unbalanced and/or uncompetitive. This mechanic does greatly increase matchup volatility and has potential to completely invalidate the concept of traditional "checks and counters." Even though I think the mechanic is interesting, I do think that completely unfettered access to Terastallization is probably bad for the metagame. Thus far, I've seen the following solutions proposed by various players:

1. Ban Terastallization

This is the simplest solution, and while Tera is certainly a fun and interesting mechanic, I wouldn't necessarily feel too bad about seeing it go if the result is a more competitive metagame. This would return the metagame more towards a Gen 8 feel, which many players are far more comfortable with.

2. Have a separate "Tera" ladder

This would be a compromise solution with 1) and possibly 3), where Tera is banned on the main ladder but a separate ladder exists where players can still try out the mechanic if they so desire. If Tera indeed turns out to be an uncompetitive mechanic, a solution could be to disallow it on the main ladder but still give players that want to try it out the chance to use it in a side metagame. This comes at a cost of potentially splitting the playerbase, but I'm sure players who love the game would probably play both metagames. I think it's always nice to see novelty and playing the same meta over and over gets stale for me.

3. Reveal Tera-types at team preview

I've suggested this, as have many others, and I think it would certainly help reign in the unpredictability of the mechanic greatly. I think Tera would be far more manageable with this information. With Tera-types revealed at preview, a player can't just Tera-Fairy their DD Dragapult in the mirror match and 6-0 the opponent's team. Granted, this may not necessarily be a perfect solution, since, as some have pointed out, it can still introduce awkward 50/50 situations whether the opponent Teras or not. Also with some Tera abusers like Palafin you know what the Tera-type will be 99% of the time but that doesn't necessarily make it any easier to deal with.

I don't think Tera is as over-the-top busted as Dynamax (which was deemed to be an AG level strategy alongside Mega Rayquaza and Baton Pass chains). It's probably ok to at least give it a fair shake in the first few weeks of the meta. Of course, any decision regarding this mechanic shouldn't be made lightly and the playerbase as a whole should try to come to a consensus. I'm sure there are proposals that I haven't covered. Everyone is welcome to suggest their ideas.
what I like most about the idea of splitting the meta game into Tera and no-Tera is that then you’ll have objective data for which one becomes the main staple and the one that people prefer. It can always be reverted or changed back later if there is overwhelming support for one over the other.

this also gives insightful precedent for future generations, as it appears gamefreaks MO won’t change and there will be a new thing with every generation, rather than any attempt to improve the competitive aspect of the regular game mechanics.

the next time we get the new version of Megas/dynamax/Tera, then there will be something that the community has learned from.
 
I really like 3 because it allows for both parties to play around each others tera type. it adds another level of skill and mind games on top of the normal pokemon. on the other hand its sort of antithetical to what tera is at the moment, being a suprise ace up the sleeve to crush otherwise sound checks. it's a complicated issue for sure.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
I don't agree with revealing Tera type on team preview. The goal of a simulator should be to most accurately reflect cartridge mechanics. Such a mechanic is not replicable on cartridge and feels like its more about preserving the gimmick than anything else.

I also don't agree with multiple tiers because the playerbase ends up getting split between the two. Similar things happened in BW with the Dream World tier which never really solidified.

I do believe a tera ban is reasonable for now until the metagame has settled, with the option to retest it later once optimum sets have been created. Right now, I believe tera is adding an extra layer of instability to a tier that is already messy. 1v1 is implementing a similar approach and I think it's a wise one to follow. It feels like it would let the meta breathe which it really needs to do right now in my opinion.
 
So who knows how the council is going to decide to review Tera, but at this point its worth trying to refine our initial plans for it. This is really rambling.

" [Tera] is a stupid swing factor that adds so much stochasticity to the game for very little value. Yeah it's cute that you can use some creative sets but overall it makes so many sweepers get away with murder.

Part of the issue is we're playing with subjectivity when judging Tera. How much swing factor is too much? Its not like this is the first introduction of it, items and sets are part of this, as again it stems from asymmetric information. At what level of Tera does this become too difficult? When it can Tera into 4 types reasonably? 7? (Let's be serious: No one is contesting a mon has more than 10 tera types, probably none have more than 4-5 maximum). In general, both stabs and the two most advantageous defensive type

But again, the words associated with randomness are not the right word. These are not random. These types are pre-determined and eventually will be optimized. But right now we do not have the knowledge for what will be optimal which prevents us from being able to make informed choices about real %s a Tera shows to a specific type. As we know more, both our choices for Tera and what we expect will become more focused.

Setting up my dark or fighting weak mon as opponent switches breloom or kingambit etc just to tera fairy to now resist priority and go for game is so dumb. Even if I don't go for game eliminating any of those can open the game out for other sweepers. Tera supporters, answer me, was my opponent bad for not predicting the tera and not mach/sucker punching? What if they predict tera and I don't and now they lost there prior user. Was he bad for not running sciz too to catch sweepers tera typing to avoid sucker and mach punch, the two most common forms of priority right now?

So in this scenario, your opponent has gotten the momentum to not only properly set up but begin their sweep. They are ALREADY ADVANTAGED. Should you then from a disadvantage be able to escape without equal investment? You have the option to go "oh wow he's in his sweep, I need to commit my own tera to survive". And yes, does that suck? Well that's the punishment for getting in that situation.

Like if a mon at one boost (which is all you're getting if we're speaking generically and 'reasonably') is being contained only because of a single priority option to you, then you have some major problems to begin with. You either had a team that had a critical weakness to it, were already heavily worn down, or the mon itself is probably broken. One of these is fixed by tiered action, and in the other two are you really deserving to win in that situation? Who knows, that's a real loose question for this discussion. But hey if you're weak and they have a tera available + boost, its not really the tera saving them but the fact that they set up to sweep and you gave them the ability to do so.

Final plea to tera supporters, do you want to see the many offensive threats that abuse it banned, or keep all of those mons and lose tera?"

I'm open to banning it if over each interation of the meta, we find that Tera is consistently raising a mon to broken status from otherwise-playable/handlable. As of current, this situation hasn't come up. This is not happening with palafin, this was not the case with Flutter Mane and Houndstone. Quite clearly, only Roaring Moon is on the radar with a substantial piece of its power specifically FROM Tera, and thus far it doesn't seem like its gonna get banned.

I don't think so. Besides the argument between cartridge and sim (of which I have 0 care for), fundamentally this strips part of the identity of the mechanic. Is it a good identity? Its not relevant for this change. Smogon has largely been committed to keeping the full identity of any mechanic/pokemon/move and then handling whether that mechanic is legal in tier as is. If the mechanic is broken, we ban it. If its fine, we keep it. The middle ground is reserved almost exclusively for changes that are too difficult to handle in other ways and if not addressed would threaten the overall competitive integrity of the game.

The fact of the matter is there's a large part of terastralizing that IS in the asymmetric information of what type you change to. This is part of the mechanic. So it stands to reason that we would be gimping Terastralizing in what is obviously (and has been acknowledged as such) as a complex ban in a situation where we could easily avoid one.

Low ladder Warrior has a post about how much more information we used to lack, and we played with it as is. That was seen as part of the generation, and still is. Is revealing team information something smogon should mandate in early gens? The game is fundamentally different with that information revealed. Whether or not its for the better is not really our decision. The mechanic is the way it is.

I don't mean to be rude but if you think a lack of knowledge on your opponents full capabilities is automatically uncompetitive, then I'd love to see your reaction when you find out about Late Game Luke, or any of the other several dozen scenarios that a new player might find unfair in DPP all because they weren't experienced enough to properly read the gamestate. I think it's an extremely difficult argument to make that Tera-type is somehow more hidden than quite literally obscuring my opponent's entire team. And yet in generations with no team preview, it's the same players that are winning, and they are winning a lot. Not to downplay the accomplishments of any newcomers to old gens, but it's clear that oldheads have a very solid grasp on the concept of playing with incomplete information.

Playing with incomplete information certainly increases the skill level required to compete on a serious level, and that skill is difficult to master for many, but it is objectively a skill and we already decided it was a competitive one at that four generations ago. If I said to a gen 3 main "Aerodactyl, Skarmory, Flygon" they'd almost certainly respond along the lines of "Swampert, Zapdos, Ttar." If you know you know. It's perfectly reasonable that in a few years when I say to a Gen 9 player "Amoonguss, Corviknight, Quagsire" they might respond "Water/Dragon/Poison" or w/e. It's far too soon to just call Tera "random chance" just because players have to deal with something they aren't full accustomed to. Gamefreak has done basically nothing but inflate the numbers since gen 4. In light of that, it's no wonder that Tera feels so foreign to so many people, but that does not make it uncompetitive.

]
Same argument as above. This is a slightly better option if we WERE to consider a complex ban, but also:

The adaptability option to me is actually of far less concern. It makes mons that are too strong already, stronger. Outside Azumarill which is requiring a +6 belly drum tera water to get to stupid damage levels, are we actively seeing Tera Adaptability sweeps consistently come from mons that we aren't at least pointing to as eventual suspect tests? Moreover, we will probably find that the THREAT of terastralizing is as high if not higher than the actual terastralize. Once your Tera choice becomes common knowledge, if the switch to the type doesn't end the game, the value of it goes way down as you've lost a lot of informational superiority.

Really, even taking this option, I believe the primary power of terastralizing is NOT the sustained type change, but the immediate effects of the turn used. The threat of using Terastralizing is as strong (if not stronger) than the actual use of it. Beaf Cultist has echoed what I think will be the most common point of contention for Tera typing when we eventually focus in on it:

This is generally right, but my issue isn't with conflicting Tera types, it's with the fact that if you bring a mon that can Tera, and never Terastalize it, you lose literally nothing from its standard sets without Tera. So the opportunity cost for me is tied to Terastalizing itself, not so much what you do with that Tera.

Guys come on. This is a bit much isn't it? It's a new mechanic, not a fucking item replacement. I get that on its face it seems like a fun point to compare to Z-Moves but in any real discussion about how broken a mechanic is, we do need to look at where it's being used, not add hypotheticals of something we're not even able to run.

Will Terastralizing be stronger than an item on average? I would hope so? Because, you only get one use of it per team. Just like Mega Stones were stronger than items, just as every mechanic from 5? 6? onward has been stronger than items but then limited to a single mon. Calcing Yache berry salamence to compare Tera'ing out of an ice weakness is just... not helpful. It's a single use mechanic that both players have equal access to.

We've done stealth rock and no stealth rock formats before. The second format died in a month. There will not long term be two 'separate but equal' formats for OU. You can do it for a suspect test, but long term you HAVE to commit, and the other is basically relegated to like Other Metagames.

Its both a matter of playerbase and the fact that managing two different formats as 'ou' is just a colossal task for both making informed decisions about what needs bans as many users attempt and conflate the two formats.

Stall might have the best teratype applications of all. While stall has certainly be neutered by other mechanic changes like reduced recovery pp and the huge increase of taunt users, the fact that wall on your team comes preloaded with a second typing that could be used to neuter the specific team you happen to be up against is such a huge advantage. Imagine your unaware clefable being able to change to be a fire type because you loaded into lo kartana, or your blissey being able to become a dark type because you're up against stored power reuni. Certainly these have drawbacks against specific team combonations, but the sheer volume of optionality in terms of offensive and defensive responses from all your different pokemon makes tera have a huge amount of random variance compared to z moves.
I find this to be... part true. Stall gets to turn some mons that have been absolutely shot by typing into a decent wall (Avalugg being the most obvious) and it does allow us very specific outs to otherwise bad situations (Water Tera Blissey to beat Chi Yu under sun, Ghost Tera Water Absorb Clodsire to wall Palafin). The real advantage stall has is that 'one turn of power' is backloaded into informational differences, not raw attack power. Because stall is good at extending a game, we can heavily reduce the amount of power a terastralize mon will gain from the surprise factor. Whereas Z Moves would just break us on that one turn of power being raw damage. This information warfare is way more pertinent and dangerous to offense where you have to make decisions on less information and have less time to gather what you need to be sure of the 'correct' option.

The major thing is right now Stall is kinda committing to a very obvious Tera user. If we have replacements and can gain that flexibility it will help us cover hyper specific stallbreakers teams struggle with in the same way offense does that to prevent specific checks from revenge killing.
 
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HUGE MECHANICS UPDATE

When Protosynthesis / Quark Drive boost Speed, its by 50%, but for ANY other stat, its 30%!!!
This is great news. I'm so happy. These paradox mons don't need to be that strong. This makes booster energy a non issue. Goes from amazing to just good.

Also people are sleeping on mecha godzilla. It's the fastest rock and spikes setter as far as I know and can spin block with tera ghost. Also can taunt and is really bulky.
 
I don't agree with revealing Tera type on team preview. The goal of a simulator should be to most accurately reflect cartridge mechanics. Such a mechanic is not replicable on cartridge and feels like its more about preserving the gimmick than anything else.

I also don't agree with multiple tiers because the playerbase ends up getting split between the two. Similar things happened in BW with the Dream World tier which never really solidified.

I do believe a tera ban is reasonable for now until the metagame has settled, with the option to retest it later once optimum sets have been created. Right now, I believe tera is adding an extra layer of instability to a tier that is already messy. 1v1 is implementing a similar approach and I think it's a wise one to follow. It feels like it would let the meta breathe which it really needs to do right now in my opinion.
It's not changing how the game works though. It's just simulating each player agreeing to reveal their tera types for a more fair match. Idk if I like that idea but I don't think it's changing how the game works at all.
 
Anyone that ever says Tera is as bad as Dynamax is crazy. The whole reason Dynamax was stupid was because it had a bunch of arbitrary and invisible gimmicks attached to it like breaking Choice/Encore-locks and the plethora of random immunities (i.e. phazing, weight moves) it granted. The closest you can compare Tera and Dynamax is in the application of Tera to deny revenge kills as Dynamax's double HP boost was used in an identical manner. Of course, this is also arguably the most broken part of using Tera.
Bad take. Dynamax was dumb, but at least had a 3 turn limit. There were also at least some means of minimizing it, such as substitute, protect, yawn, and haze for stat boosts or whatever. Not perfect solutions. But there was at least more you could do than with Terastallizing. This meta is more HO than even gen 8 with Dynamax.

Terastallizing is the only generational gimmick yet that has no turn limit or item slot limitation. It's also far worse than Dynamax because, in addition to no turn limits, none of the damaging moves in Dynamax were priority. Even broken Max Airstream doesn't compare to adaptability level priority STAB on pokemon before even factoring in items, boosts, and abilities that add further multipliers. You get unlimited amounts of the highest power priority we've ever seen in Pokemon. It's just insane.

Terastallizing is honestly quite fun. But it's clearly the most broken gimmick so far and it's not particularly close. And for the record, I'm not even arguing to ban or not. I just find it strange that people somehow think the past gimmicks with more limitations were somehow less broken. No shot.
 
:ss/umbreon:

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
- Moonlight / Thunder Wave

With Flutter Mane gone, this mon seems in a pretty decent spot now, especially when paired with Dondozo, who has no form of reliable recovery. It's bulky enough to counter Iron Bundle, and it''s not a complete momentum drain unlike Blissey. It does kinda bring in Iron Valiant for free, but I haven't found that mon to be particularly hard to deal with, and Twave can completely cripple it if you choose to run that.

:sylveon: :florges:

Sylveon and Florges also have potential with a similar set, with the latter having a funny interaction with Tera Grass, becoming immune to status and stat reductions.
 
Let’s not derail on this tangent. I think the useful life of this subtopic of conversation is over

what do people think about Iron Bundle?
I think bundle is a very good mon in the tier but not over centralizing at all.


Its choice sets get beat by common defensive cores that can switch around it or just outright beat it if it clicks anything than pump which can miss since it doesn't get any other good water stab. Seen some people run tera blast water just to have a reliable stab but committing your entire tera type just for that when you can tera into something that can beat its other counters or just use it on a better pokemon is restricting on your own team, also goes without saying when you're choiced your switch ins are very limited without proper support.

I think its non choice sets with taunt are more problematic for certain teamstyles. But even then those sets are not strong enough to 1v1 healthy offensive pokemon without energy booster but then you're weak to rocks. Most likely have to hit multiple pumps in a row to have a chance at breaking vs defensive teams (alot of offensive teams too) otherwise corviknight, spdef garg, gholdengo or literally anything tera'd into ice resist or literally anything coming in on freeze-dry just come in and beats it.

What I like most about this mon is that it limits people using palafin recklessly. But a good player can still play around it and setup their palafin to beat it with tera steel because non choiced bundle cannot beat a healthy palafin-steel and a choiced bundle has to predict the steel tera to beat it AND HIT PUMP.

Great pokemon, has glaring issues that are easy to solve in teambuilder as you can prepare for multiple of its sets with just hazards and common defensive pokemon, or terastilizing.
 
The one concept of it I find that may eventually mandate suspect action is the fact that it blocks Rapid Spin and Defog — pairing it with hazard stack can make games pretty silly. I think we are too early in the metagame to worry about this degree of specifics and archetypical nuisances yet though. Maybe it’ll be added to the radar though, we shall see
How come hazard stacking + spin blocker was fine back in gens 2-5 but one pokemon being able to block defog is enough to potentially get it on the radar?

Seriously, this is ONE pokemon blocking defog and it loses to the best 2 spinners we have (+ loses to post home removers like torn/exca/lando..etc). Its in no way the foolproof anti-removal the way people are talking about it here

It must be the corvi stans who cant handle corv not being able to defog on everything in existance
 
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