Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[UnusualBoy]

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Im curious to hear from yall. Dragonite is the best pokemon from Gen 1 at the moment especially with terastillization in the picture.

I know there a hundreds of sets this mon can use from Banded, to bulky utility, and even mixed attack sets. With an expansive move pool and terastillization this mon is very versatile.

Inner Focus is cool and all, granting it immunity to flinches and intimidate, but I feel like Multiscale puts it over the top. It ensures that it lives at least one super-effective attack.

Without the Multiscale ability would it still be in OU? Or would it drop to UU ?

Multiscale did wonders for Dnite, he wasn't bad but that new ability gave it the edge over Salamence who was always ahead since it's faster and its abilities were more helpeful. If Nite didn't have Multiscale, he'd for sure be UU and I doubt he'd drop from there since he has coverage for all of this weaknessess and bulky enough to take hits.

I'm happy my big yellow boy is having a new peak 25 years later, and he's even doing amazing in VGC now.

 

[cosmogii]

dnite is one of the few pokemon that almost always seems to benefit immensely from (almost) EVERY gimmick the mainline series has had, 3 in a row now.
z-crystals gave it a nuke they could run, potentially also giving them a good flying stab move albeit only once
dynamax gave it a BETTER flying stab in max airstream and was the best weakness policy abuser imo
and tera is tera, everybody knows why dnite is so fucking incredible with it
overall the figment knockoff is goated, always has been and always will be

 

[TCTphantom]

The fact Greninja dropped and Iron Treads stayed is a tragedy. Greninja is a solid A- mon thats great on HO and Rain. Treads feels like garbo into any team with Tusk, which is a lot of them. Genuinely, Treads has been one of the biggest letdowns of a mon this gen.

 

[gtuskoutplayed]

The fact Greninja dropped and Iron Treads stayed is a tragedy. Greninja is a solid A- mon thats great on HO and Rain. Treads feels like garbo into any team with Tusk, which is a lot of them. Genuinely, Treads has been one of the biggest letdowns of a mon this gen.

ground steel would be great in a meta without tusk

 

[Mega Breloom]

I've not played a ton of OU over the last month, but I'm curious - what do you all think is behind the high Iron Moth usage? It's good, don't get me wrong, but I'm a bit surprised to see it's top ten in usage even in a fairly favourable meta for it. Is it being used as a breaker on sun teams? Is it just that there's not a ton of specially defensive mons around, and it's a rare strong special attacker with a good speed tier? It's definitely easier to just use out the box without good positioning than Volc or Hydreigon, who I think are two of its main competitors, but I didn't see the utility or variety from it in the early meta that I would expect from something that highly used.

The unaware trio is making set up sweepers dead weight in some match ups so people are going for the proto/quark or choice cleaners/breakers instead to beat defensive teams since those boost (choice items and proto) ignore unaware. Bax for example with band destroys dozo, SD or DD Bax loses to it. The shed tail ban also makes it harder for set up sweepers to get chances to set up.

The fact Greninja dropped and Iron Treads stayed is a tragedy. Greninja is a solid A- mon thats great on HO and Rain. Treads feels like garbo into any team with Tusk, which is a lot of them. Genuinely, Treads has been one of the biggest letdowns of a mon this gen.

To be fair, the viability rankings haven't been updated in a while, Gren and H-Zoroak are not A- at this point. The meta is just too volatile for the rymth of updates that the ranking is getting.

 

[KirbyDude25]

To be fair, the viability rankings haven't been updated in a while, Gren and H-Zoroak are not A- at this point. The meta is just too volatile for the rymth of updates that the ranking is getting.

Thankfully, the council's voting on a new slate, so there should be an update within a few days

 

[Swagodile]

Without constant STAB, Greninja is like a weaker, slightly faster Inteleon with a secondary Dark typing.

 

[awyp]

Iron Moth > Volc in the top 10 is impressive in terms of usage. I think it's the first time it's happened all gen.

 

[Srn]

The threat of toxic spikes is really strong because we have strong and viable setters like toxic debris glimmora and toxapex. To a lesser extent there's other tspike setters like iron moth itself, clodsire, greninja, etc. The point is, its imperative for most offense teams to have a grounded poison type so that tspikes don't screw you over (because hazard control is so limited), and our choices for grounded offensive poison types come out to...glimmora and iron moth (gengar? ). Balance teams will try to fit in amoongus, toxapex, or clodsire somewhere because absorbing tspikes is just really nice for any team.

So in my eyes, I see iron moth on offense as somewhat of a necessity, whereas volcarona is an option.

 

[furyofyuriy]

dnite is one of the few pokemon that almost always seems to benefit immensely from (almost) EVERY gimmick the mainline series has had, 3 in a row now.

Probably due to the fact that it is a true all rounder. Offensive, defensive, semi-support, and special attacker were all viable for this mon to some capacity over several generations. Something as well rounded as Dragonite just needs the slightest nudge to be a nightmare in one of it's move sets. It is actually amazing how each set that utilized the three mechanics was fundamentally different in what it wanted to do.

Without constant STAB, Greninja is like a weaker, slightly faster Inteleon with a secondary Dark typing.

So funny enough, I think this is exactly it. The Protean nerf hit gren the hardest of the starter trio. The majority of it's coverage moves these days are not types it likes to stay as for very long, like Ice and Grass. While I am sure when the new and """improved""" Battle Bond is released it has a good chance of making OU again. But honestly, I do wonder if it would see slightly more usage if it ran Torrent currently, solely for the fact that it would maintain two STABS? Like I can't believe I am actually saying that, but here we are.

 

[Moyashi]

So funny enough, I think this is exactly it. The Protean nerf hit gren the hardest of the starter trio. The majority of it's coverage moves these days are not types it likes to stay as for very long, like Ice and Grass.

This applies to all protean mons now. If you're using protean you're using a choice item, which means you're likely switching out soon after locking into a move. The benefit of Greninja is that its four move coverage and attacking on the special side makes it much less easy to wall. I'm also not sure why we're discussing Greninja as if it dropped for lack of viability when it's almost entirely ladder tomfoolery. Mon is plenty good and viable in the metagame.

 

[Mega Breloom]

This applies to all protean mons now. If you're using protean you're using a choice item, which means you're likely switching out soon after locking into a move. The benefit of Greninja is that its four move coverage and attacking on the special side makes it much less easy to wall. I'm also not sure why we're discussing Greninja as if it dropped for lack of viability when it's almost entirely ladder tomfoolery. Mon is plenty good and viable in the metagame.

It is decent, but outclassed, want a choice breaker that is hard to switch? just run specs valiant or Bax. Rain isn't that good rn so that also hurts a team where it could work, however with Home, Basculegion and Zapdos we will see rain spam in the ladder so Gren might return with that.

 

[pika pal]

This applies to all protean mons now. If you're using protean you're using a choice item, which means you're likely switching out soon after locking into a move.

Doesn't Cinderace run HDB (partly because its two most clicked attacks are Pyro Ball, which won't change Mono-Fire, and U-Turn)?

 

[Moyashi]

It is decent, but outclassed, want a choice breaker that is hard to switch? just run specs valiant or Bax. Rain isn't that good rn so that also hurts a team where it could work, however with Home, Basculegion and Zapdos we will see rain spam in the ladder so Gren might return with that.

Specs Greninja isn't as easy to pivot around between Pump/Pulse/Icebeam/GrassKnot, with just stabs being very spammable. Even Specs Valiant, threatening as it is, can be a bit more prediction reliant against a team with a poison like Amoonguss, Clod or Toxapex. Bax meanwhile... not sure why you'd mention it. Gren isn't AMAZING but it's a very solid Mon in the metagame. It's not appropriate to say outclassed. Faces competition would be more accurate, but it is very justifiable.

Doesn't Cinderace run HDB (partly because its two most clicked attacks are Pyro Ball, which won't change Mono-Fire, and U-Turn)?

oops. you're absolutely right. Although in that case one could argue you don't even need libero at that point.

 

[pika pal]

Specs Greninja isn't as easy to pivot around between Pump/Pulse/Icebeam/GrassKnot, with just stabs being very spammable. Even Specs Valiant, threatening as it is, can be a bit more prediction reliant against a team with a poison like Amoonguss, Clod or Toxapex. Bax meanwhile... not sure why you'd mention it. Gren isn't AMAZING but it's a very solid Mon in the metagame. It's not appropriate to say outclassed. Faces competition would be more accurate, but it is very justifiable.

I presume Bax was mentioned in this case because rather than coverage like Greninja or Valiant, Choice Bax is hard to switch into just from the sheer power behind its STABs (primarily Glaive Rush) on neutral targets, which happen frequently when we have like 3 Fairies and 3 Steel types in OU right now, with the Fairies all having to fear its Ice STAB and even the Steels taking a pretty decent chunk on resist if not running their defensive variants (and PDef Corv is a mon of debated performance compared to other Defensive options or even its own SpDef variant in OU).

252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 166-196 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

"After all who needs combos when you have... big number" - Rank10YGO

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Roaring Moon sounds like a great late-game check to Gholdengo on paper:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 372-440 (118 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 288-342 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 312-368 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 240-284 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But now Gholdengo goes Tera Flying and nothing Roaring Moon can do can OHKO Gholdengo anymore:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 186-220 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 256-303 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...except Stone Edge but pretty much nobody runs that on Roaring Moon.

Of course I'll be happy to demostrate!

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 312-368 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 340-402 (107.9 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But If Gholdengo carries a Dazzling Gleam, Roaring Moon is annihilated

252 SpA Gholdengo Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 352-416 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Focus Blast alone can't OHKO Roaring Moon useless Gholdengo Teralizes to Fighting

252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 262-310 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tera Fighting Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 392-464 (111.6 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Troubadour1]

I swear this guy exists just to farm haha reacts

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

I wouldn't be this funny!

 

[InfraredGod_YT]

Personally, I think tera should get another suspect test before it gets banned cuz of HOME, but that's just me.

 

[jackuzzler]

Bulk Up Booster Energy Tusk

(Great Tusk) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin

This is a set that I used on this team: https://pokepast.es/4f427e8634498a10 which peaked at about 1850-1900 ELO. I wanted to highlight this set because I think it's an extremely under utilized set, though it only fits on certain team structures. On that specific team, reliable hazard control was necessary, so having a fast spinner to guarantee spins/progress was key. Bulk Up on Booster Energy tusk catches a lot of teams off guard, a lot of people will feel pretty comfortable switching in spin blockers vs Tusk or their own Tusk basically causing a 50/50 (though, it heavily depends on how much the opponent thinks they *need* to keep up hazards in order to win). But fast Bulk Up allow Tusk to take advantage of those situations, by bulking up and being able to kill common switch ins, and take advantage of opposing Tusk switching in w/ Bulk Up. Tera Fire blocks wisp from Volcarona, Skeledirge, and Cinderace and allows this set to 1v1 those. It also allows it to flip the switch on Baxcalibur and Valiant, outspeeding Bax at +1 and Valiant at +2 Here are some relevant calcs showing these situations:

Offensive Calcs:
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 426-504 (135.2 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Air Balloon, Knock off has a 25% chance of 0hkoing assuming no investment.
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 276-326 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 336-396 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 249-294 (66.7 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you're at +1, you can Tera Fire on Valiant and spin, and if you have the BEnergy boost you can then kill with EQ, which stops Valiant, which is a massive threat to this set. Although very situational, I've won games doing this.
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Rapid Spin vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 75-89 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 223-264 (76.8 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 220-259 (59.2 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This set is to mostly be used on HO teams that need reliable hazard control to function properly (which was in the case of my team). Downsides of the set are plenty though, a lot of times it wants to tera in order to dent opposing teams, and while it will always do that for you, it's important to take care of opposing Tusk in the early-mid game before teraing, as it can come back in after you tera and you're down your hazard removal and a tera. Tusk also loses some of it's mid-game progressing potential with this set. It's a very situational set, however, it's won me many games and can catch a lot of top offensive threats off guard if played right. If you want, I even encourage special defence investment, as a lot of times it's being used to surprise and outspeed special attackers, in some situations it still wants to take special hits better.

Have fun, and feel free to use/edit the team. In my opinion, it's pretty solid but has too many bad matchups which is why I've decided to make it public. If you want more details on the team, I posted it on the bazaar and talk more about it there, so click HERE to see that

 

[MAB999]

Ive always thought how good greninja would do if it dropped to UU (which it supriseingly did). I think it'll probably get banned pretty quickly (like with iron leaves). It is incredibly powerful in OU, so powerful that other tiers likely wont be able to handle it and become a meta-destroying monster, without any existing counters within the tier. It will likely get kicked out of the tier sooner than most other pokemon from past gen UU metas! COME ON PEOPLE! Why not use this clear OU staple when everyone knows its gonna be OU all over again in like 2 weeks maximum!

 

[tommytt22]

The fact Greninja dropped and Iron Treads stayed is a tragedy. Greninja is a solid A- mon thats great on HO and Rain. Treads feels like garbo into any team with Tusk, which is a lot of them. Genuinely, Treads has been one of the biggest letdowns of a mon this gen.

Not sure what you're smoking iron treads is great. People just don't really have space for TWO ground type elephants on their team and tusk can play several roles at once (that's not saying much, tusk is the best new pokemon this gen) heavy slam really hurts hatterene- I can't remember if it's a ohko but I think so. Steel ground is also really good AV typing, I used AV excadrill for years and iron treads does the job better in every way, it can also spin toxic spikes without running boots which really cripples tusk, you almost have to pair tusk with a poison type to suck up t-spikes.

Ultimately people consider it "a worse tusk" but it just requires different positioning and plays a different role in the team, volt switch is a God send even if it doesn't make any sense... 106 speed is crazy good too

 

[MegaScizor32]

Ive always thought how good greninja would do if it dropped to UU (which it supriseingly did). I think it'll probably get banned pretty quickly (like with iron leaves). It is incredibly powerful in OU, so powerful that other tiers likely wont be able to handle it and become a meta-destroying monster, without any existing counters within the tier. It will likely get kicked out of the tier sooner than most other pokemon from past gen UU metas! COME ON PEOPLE! Why not use this clear OU staple when everyone knows its gonna be OU all over again in like 2 weeks maximum!

Its not powerful in OU its okay. It dropped to UU for a reason. There are better options on the special attacking side. 103 SpAtk is too weak in comparison to other mons like Volcarona, Iron Moth and even Walking Wake.

You have to use Specs if you really want it to hit hard, and even then other mons outclass it. Walking wake is the better water special attacker and its way bulkier too. Sure it can set spikes but Meowscarada does that better.

Power creep, the protean nerf, and better options are the reason its UU.

It might become UUBL maybe?

 

[Ctann]

OU players be like: “You’re a noob Garg spammer”

lmao

ghost type Garg is the most fun I’ve had with a (non stall) tank that’s difficult to KO.

Sometimes Garg is a menace

Featuring a rain team that got stuck wasting rain turns thanks to block.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1856694139


Featuring a 2 for 1 combo deal , pulling down a high value Garg and high value dragapult in the same match. Rage quit is the very last turn

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853822280


Sometimes Garg causes stall teams to rage quit

nothing much to say, it’s stall rage quitting
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1855336642-opxsczqbktdnux9naf4uq255ub2ux8qpw

as above, we all love the schaudenfraude of stall rage quitting

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1856584411-055iw2oy7r57w4m0mail5e5wkv096c2pw

sometimes even menace Garg loses

I don’t mean to use propaganda to imply that menace Garg is unstoppable, here’s some replays where it can’t win

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854385651-3fi3vkhmv3qoghq405emnxmn5037buopw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854021369-77vj6k90v0vff277psj63k9hsofmzzppw

the best thing about menace Garg tho, is that it can trap and KO toxapex for all the players that hate that haha
—

If you like this mini series of replays please let me know so I know to post more. I like watching replays in showdown but noticed most of the 1800+ games are hidden, most of these replays are 1900+, so should be very valuable to learn from.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Assault Vest Tox is way better than I thought. I am pleasantly surprised.