Magearna is coming back, for what its worth it does what Espathra does but a little better, and it doesn’t have to rely on Tera. Also, HOME will bring back more Unaware walls to stop Espathra, and if push comes to shove the wall can just Tera dark.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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okay to be honest, I can see somehow bundle being legal but the problem with bundle is the same issue with chi-yu, very underrated defense (physical) and freeze dry / hydro pump combo hits everything neutrally and you attach tera to that (ice or water) and it becomes overwhelming + positive nature speed 408 is really good. flip turn adds a very scary mon with pivoting prowess (i hope it stays uber)
palafin - no comment lol (keep it ubers)
Urshifu-RS also resists dual STAB of Chien Pao, so offensively it beats Pao 1v1, which is also good for it.
Single Strike is super broken, Rapid Strike will be good though. Pads > Gloves between the two, Fighting > Other Teras cause Donbozo.
As far as we know, none of the other unaware mons won't return.
Sadly neither magic guard users to deal with Garg, bring back my boy Reuniclus to teach a lesson to that salt dude.
Oh I thought Clefable was returning my bad
Espathra still is weaker Magearna, which is staying OU. In addition, the gen 9 metagame is more physical than special, but HOME is bringing several good special attackers, making Espathra a less valued Mon to have access to.
Also justice for reuniclus our bro
Stored power and the shift gear sets have been pretty underwhelming so far imo.
I don't see Bundle coming back, but I think Palafin could get another chance. However, I'd keep a very close eye on Palafin if it returns to OU
Specs and av have been the most consistent in the games I’ve seen and played
really? bundle is op but without specs, it's special attack is nothing of importance. Honestly, i think that Bundle might have a slim chance or mb a suspect later this gen but palafin is just a unique threat. It literally made rain OP at the start of the meta, singlehandedly.
Volcanion may be a new check to Palafin, but that's all it is; a check. You need to swap in on a choiced water move to not crumble to coverage. If you have to run certain pokemon like water absorb Clodsire for fear of 1 pokemon tearing your entire team apart, it's overcentralising, and even it's so-called checks get ripped apart by certain sets.
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This could be the gen that urshifu-RS gets banned to ubers honestly since way less things reliably check it now, since urshifu-RS can shrug off burn with SD and can completely obliterate some of its former counters/checks
Also bundle isn't just broken because of specs, its the fact it can pivot and the fact it quite literally has the best stab combo in the game, in water/ice + freeze dry. When it comes down to it bundle isn't that different from flutter mane and is the same breed of overpowered pretty much, in other words they should stay far away from OU, both are uniquely impossible to wall in different ways, but ultimately banworthy for pretty much the same reasons at their core, but through different means as flutter mane likes to set up, where bundle just rolls over everything regardless
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Most palafin sets barely run coverage in the first place, forcing him to have to run something just for volc is a win
So I found a core in Thundurus, Corviknight, Landorus-Therian, and Dondozo. Let me explain
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
Removal and a stop to
. Nice defensive backbone in general.
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 212 Atk / 60 Def / 8 SpD / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
Anti offense and supportive with Intimidate
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
It wrecks stall. Is it a good justification? Not at all, but I don't like stall
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
A much needed presence in the face of the new meta threats
I'll go into detail about it when i make my RMT for the HOME meta
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
Removal and a stop to
. Nice defensive backbone in general.Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 212 Atk / 60 Def / 8 SpD / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
Anti offense and supportive with Intimidate
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
It wrecks stall. Is it a good justification? Not at all, but I don't like stall
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
A much needed presence in the face of the new meta threats
I'll go into detail about it when i make my RMT for the HOME meta
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
A much needed presence in the face of the new meta threats
I'll go into detail about it when i make my RMT for the HOME meta
Keep in mind this dozo set could get exploited by taunt hard if it rests, which can give Urshifu-RS a free opportunity to switch out into something that can handle dozo easily.
Honestly though could Urshifu-RS be sent to ubers this gen? The counterplay for it this gen other than dozo in some ways is a lot shakier since scald burns aren't a huge problem for it anymore.
124 is a strong attacking stat, especially on the special side for such an offensive inclined typing. It isn't "nothing of importance" without specs. Unresisted stabs thanks to freeze dry and being so grossly fast for how strong it is. Taunt and Encore as fourth slot options dismantle defensive mons attempting to stall it out.
So I found a core in Thundurus, Corviknight, Landorus-Therian, and Dondozo. Let me explain
Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
Removal and a stop to
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 212 Atk / 60 Def / 8 SpD / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
Anti offense and supportive with Intimidate
Thundurus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- U-turn
It wrecks stall. Is it a good justification? Not at all, but I don't like stall
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
A much needed presence in the face of the new meta threats
I'll go into detail about it when i make my RMT for the HOME meta
I'm not exactly sure what your aim is here. The randomly split EVs on Dondozo don't make much sense and actually make it worse at checking what it should be able to. Also, unless you have wish support from something like Scream Tail, it is really hard to run rocky helmet Don without being forced into frequent rest loops which is very exploitable.
That Thundurus... How does it break stall when it can't do squat to Clodsire? Uturn also feels out of place.
The Lando spread is extremely bizarre. If you run scarf, you should be running max atk/spd.
As for Corv, without maxdef it couldn't be a real stop to Ursaluna. Trick Room sets blow it up, and just facade into fire punch is too much.
Thank the gods for this. Fuck this damn nemo
im bored and i want to give my reasonings for the votes we've seen so far, esp since some on my end (namely espathra and basculegion) seem questionable. if you guys have any further questions or thoughts (my thoughts on other things offered by home, for example) feel free to let me know and ill be happy to answer! i'll also do this for the other half of the votes.
Last Respects
Uber
This one was really easy for me. It's an extremely dumb move that single-handedly bolsters the strength of Pokemon to unreasonable calibers with little skill and positioning necessary. Now that Basculegion and Basculin-White-Stripe enter the tier, there is reason and precedent to ban the move as opposed to Houndstone alone, which will provide the tier with very cool Rain options and a bulky spinblocker that's probably not going to be OU but could be a niche choice.
Uber
Magearna, undoubtedly, serves to bring very healthy aspects to the tier with its defensive profile, set variety, and utility. However my stance on it is a begrudging Ubers vote; its healthy aspects are heavily usurped by its sheer strength and the individual absurdity of its varying offensive sets. As a nail in the coffin it lost nothing going into Generation 9 and only received buffs for some reason (it got Spikes?????), plus Tera is silly on both Specs and giving it extra turns to set up with dual dance a la Espathra. I still adamantly believe it will be too much in the tier, but I'm not particularly upset it's in OU to start since Poison-types win big in a post-Home metagame and I do really like the resistance profile and utility it brings, unlike Regieleki for example.
Uber
One of the easier votes for me. This Pokemon is fundamentally hard to answer and centralizing to a fault, and it now has Nasty Plot and Taunt to either brute force its checks or block recovery in the case of Blissey. Absolutely no shot this thing would be fair.
OU
The addition and high viability of Hisuian Zoroark, removal of Shed Tail, increase in Encore usage, and a highly bolstered power level to overwhelm it made me feel far more confident that Annihilape would play a more deliberate and fair role in the metagame. While it did ultimately wind up in Ubers, I'm not particularly grieving for its loss, but I do feel it would be one of the less egregious options for sure.
Uber
This was another easy vote for me. Getting coverage is all Regieleki needed to become truly absurd and it finally has it. Even if it is checkable, I guarantee people aren't going to want to run AV Iron Treads and Gastrodon on every other team just to hold it back. I personally didn't feel it was worth the added effort to give a chance when we already have a nightmare of a new metagame to balance as is.
OU
I initially voted Uber, but I changed my mind after a few discussions with some peers. The potential additions of Magearna and Zamazenta (and definite additions of Hisuian Samurott and Heatran) provides the tier with more easily-applicable Chien-Pao counterplay and revenge killing options. Plus, it does bring some consistent tempo to offense with its amazing revenge killing ability and breaking power so I'm not particularly remiss to vote it back in. I believe it will probably still be too much, but this was enough for me to be willing to give it a chance.
Uber
Even in a metagame with more flexible Dark-types and minimal coverage it was too much. There is no world where a more fitting metagame landscape, Tera Blast, and an incredible addition in Draining Kiss will make it fair.
OU
My other controversial vote; much like Chien-Pao my vote on it was not on the basis of "I emphatically believe it will be fine" but rather that I think there is some merit to its presence that is made more fair as a result of metagame conditions. The addition of Magearna and Hisuian Samurott, increased Toxic distribution, Encore usage in the metagame as of late, as well as the loss of Shed Tail hurts it a lot. Its options are more forcibly constrained because of this, and it would likely be far more positioning-centric to find consistent value. As for its positive qualities, it provides an extra tool for offensive structures into bulkier ones with an uptick in Dondozo fat, and I do believe its unique strengths--but several previously mentioned limitations--as a win condition are potentially reasonable for bulkier teams to deal with in a post-HOME metagame and maybe positive in some respects. To be clear I do think it would probably be too much anyway, but I don't think Espathra's brokenness is as black and white as people sometimes make it out to be. Much like Annihilape, though, I don't grieve its loss.
Uber
Very dumb and very stupid and very dumb wallbreaker that doesn't really provide anything for the tier unlike Chien-Pao, and the new additions aren't at all enough to stop it. We don't need to waste the effort imo.
Last Respects
Uber
This one was really easy for me. It's an extremely dumb move that single-handedly bolsters the strength of Pokemon to unreasonable calibers with little skill and positioning necessary. Now that Basculegion and Basculin-White-Stripe enter the tier, there is reason and precedent to ban the move as opposed to Houndstone alone, which will provide the tier with very cool Rain options and a bulky spinblocker that's probably not going to be OU but could be a niche choice.
These votes were made on the idea that Last Respects would not be banned and that we are assessing these Pokemon individually with Last Respects in the equation.
Uber / OU
Before you guys rip me a new one, my thought process here was very process-based as opposed to a surface level evaluation. Basculegion-Male is most certainly the more competent Last Respect user of the two and most definitely better than Houndstone, which is why I voted Uber for it, however I voted OU for Basculegion-Female with the idea that it would provide evidence that Last Respects was the problem and not Houndstone and Basculegion-Male specifically. Essentially, I voted with the agenda that Last Respects was the problem and not these three Pokemon with Last Respects, and that if we decided that these three Pokemon were the problem alone, that voting Basculegion-F to OU would act as a means to an end. However this aged pretty badly because we voted on Last Respects out the rip.
Uber
Houndstone has proven to be egregiously stupid (or at least uncompetitive) with Last Respects already. Easy vote for me.
Uber / OU
Before you guys rip me a new one, my thought process here was very process-based as opposed to a surface level evaluation. Basculegion-Male is most certainly the more competent Last Respect user of the two and most definitely better than Houndstone, which is why I voted Uber for it, however I voted OU for Basculegion-Female with the idea that it would provide evidence that Last Respects was the problem and not Houndstone and Basculegion-Male specifically. Essentially, I voted with the agenda that Last Respects was the problem and not these three Pokemon with Last Respects, and that if we decided that these three Pokemon were the problem alone, that voting Basculegion-F to OU would act as a means to an end. However this aged pretty badly because we voted on Last Respects out the rip.
Uber
Houndstone has proven to be egregiously stupid (or at least uncompetitive) with Last Respects already. Easy vote for me.
Uber
Magearna, undoubtedly, serves to bring very healthy aspects to the tier with its defensive profile, set variety, and utility. However my stance on it is a begrudging Ubers vote; its healthy aspects are heavily usurped by its sheer strength and the individual absurdity of its varying offensive sets. As a nail in the coffin it lost nothing going into Generation 9 and only received buffs for some reason (it got Spikes?????), plus Tera is silly on both Specs and giving it extra turns to set up with dual dance a la Espathra. I still adamantly believe it will be too much in the tier, but I'm not particularly upset it's in OU to start since Poison-types win big in a post-Home metagame and I do really like the resistance profile and utility it brings, unlike Regieleki for example.
Uber
One of the easier votes for me. This Pokemon is fundamentally hard to answer and centralizing to a fault, and it now has Nasty Plot and Taunt to either brute force its checks or block recovery in the case of Blissey. Absolutely no shot this thing would be fair.
OU
The addition and high viability of Hisuian Zoroark, removal of Shed Tail, increase in Encore usage, and a highly bolstered power level to overwhelm it made me feel far more confident that Annihilape would play a more deliberate and fair role in the metagame. While it did ultimately wind up in Ubers, I'm not particularly grieving for its loss, but I do feel it would be one of the less egregious options for sure.
Uber
This was another easy vote for me. Getting coverage is all Regieleki needed to become truly absurd and it finally has it. Even if it is checkable, I guarantee people aren't going to want to run AV Iron Treads and Gastrodon on every other team just to hold it back. I personally didn't feel it was worth the added effort to give a chance when we already have a nightmare of a new metagame to balance as is.
OU
I initially voted Uber, but I changed my mind after a few discussions with some peers. The potential additions of Magearna and Zamazenta (and definite additions of Hisuian Samurott and Heatran) provides the tier with more easily-applicable Chien-Pao counterplay and revenge killing options. Plus, it does bring some consistent tempo to offense with its amazing revenge killing ability and breaking power so I'm not particularly remiss to vote it back in. I believe it will probably still be too much, but this was enough for me to be willing to give it a chance.
Uber
Even in a metagame with more flexible Dark-types and minimal coverage it was too much. There is no world where a more fitting metagame landscape, Tera Blast, and an incredible addition in Draining Kiss will make it fair.
OU
My other controversial vote; much like Chien-Pao my vote on it was not on the basis of "I emphatically believe it will be fine" but rather that I think there is some merit to its presence that is made more fair as a result of metagame conditions. The addition of Magearna and Hisuian Samurott, increased Toxic distribution, Encore usage in the metagame as of late, as well as the loss of Shed Tail hurts it a lot. Its options are more forcibly constrained because of this, and it would likely be far more positioning-centric to find consistent value. As for its positive qualities, it provides an extra tool for offensive structures into bulkier ones with an uptick in Dondozo fat, and I do believe its unique strengths--but several previously mentioned limitations--as a win condition are potentially reasonable for bulkier teams to deal with in a post-HOME metagame and maybe positive in some respects. To be clear I do think it would probably be too much anyway, but I don't think Espathra's brokenness is as black and white as people sometimes make it out to be. Much like Annihilape, though, I don't grieve its loss.
Uber
Very dumb and very stupid and very dumb wallbreaker that doesn't really provide anything for the tier unlike Chien-Pao, and the new additions aren't at all enough to stop it. We don't need to waste the effort imo.
Question, if they don't get Last respects in the end just like Lele didn't get expanding force in gen 8 even if the game data originally said it could, the last respects ban will stay or in that scenario Houndstone will stay banned?
Basculegion and Basculin learning Last Respects is actually coded into Scarlet and Violet, unlike Expanding Force for Tapu Lele which was only coded into Pokemon HOME. It's most likely that they will get it, but in the event they don't we will probably re-evaluate.
Plus we’re slated to get the Pokémon HOME update by itself without any kind of Scarlet and Violet update patch that could potentially change move distribution beforehand. They have always announced the Scarlet and Violet patches in advance by a good ways, and we’re too close to HOME’s release to get a patch between now and then based on past precedent. The learnsets we have now are going to be the learnsets for the HOME metagame.
If they don’t get it, we will revert to the initial vote and discard the Last Respects vote, leaving the Pokemon Uber. This isn’t happening tho
I saw the palafin result leak finch? Does that mean iron bundle and flutter mane results are revealed tomorrow, since one more verdict was dropped today?
Since palafin results were already leaked by you, would that mean we get mane results tomorrow instead of palafin?
For those who don't know palafin is staying ubers in a 9-1 vote that finch tweeted about a short while ago
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