Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I want to give my Seasoned Beginner point of view on the new Tera mechanic.
(ELO 1,121 Baby)

I find myself torn with the new Tera Mechanic.
Some parts of the new Tera Mechanic I enjoy.
Some parts of the new Tera Mechanic I feel needs to be removed.

I will start with the negative first.
I don’t like Pokémon changing to unknown types.

Example: You are using Jolteon as your Sweeper.

Jolteon is Electric type.
I bring in a Ground type to Counter/Check you.

You Tera Jolteon to a Grass Type and blast my Ground Type to death.
or
You Tera Jolteon to a Ice Type and blast my Ground Type to death.
or
You Tera Jolteon to a Water Type and blast my Ground Type to death.


Now the question is how could the above been avoided?
What could I have done to save myself in any way?

Some people have said by having the Tera Revealed at the start of a battle (Preview) it would help.
I don’t see that helping either because players can’t change their team at Preview.

Remember, in the above example we are pretending Jolteon is the Meta S Tier Sweeper, I built and designed my team with Jolteon in mind.
I knew the opponent could potentially use Jolteon as a Sweeper.
I added in Ground Type in preparation to meet his Electric moves with my Ground type.

This is how players have done Checks & Counters in Pokémon for over 8 Generations.
Now all of a sudden the Ground type who use to Counter Electric can no longer do it.

I need to have 4 different Pokémon to counter 1 Jolteon.
I would need all 4 types to effectively have a counter to 1 Jolteon.

THE TERA TYPE CHANGING TO SOMETHING UNKNOWN IS GAME BREAKING.
I want to take a moment to point out the underlined word in my above sentence.
I will come back to this underlined word when I talk about the Pro’s of Terra.

Changing Different Types completely breaks the game because it ruins the way we check and counter Pokémon.
Every Pokémon in the game is Poison Type with the current Tera Mechanic.
Is it not?

Now, Let me tell you the part of Tera Mechanic which I enjoy.
I LOVE TERA TYPE CHANGING TO SOMETHING KNOWN.

You might wonder what is the difference between the Unknown and the Known.
Lets go back to the Jolteon Example so you can understand.

Jolteon is a Electric type.
The Electric Type Jolteon has is KNOWN.
Jolteon original type has forever been Electric.

I don’t approve of Jolteon Tera into a Fairy which is completely Unknown.
I do approve of Jolteon Tera into Electric which is Known.

Jolteon is Electric if Jolteon Tera into Electric all it does is increase the damage of Jolteon Electric Type moves.

Think about it from a Team Building Perspective.
To me Tera Boost is similar to a Pokémon using Choice Specs or Life Orb.

It increases the Pokémon damage with out needing to use Choice Specs or Life Orb which than allows them to have more flexibility in using other Slot items which they normally wouldn’t be able to use.

Lets give another example:
Lets say the Pokémon is Corviknight.
Corviknight is Flying & Steel.

If Corviknight was to Tera, I feel Corviknight would only have 2 options Flying or Steel.
His typing doesn’t change!

What changes his the Damage of his moves depending on the Tera Type he picks.
If he picks Flying Tera, Corviknight is still a Flying & Steel Pokémon.
However, all his Flying type moves can deal extra damage.

If he picks Steel Tera, Corviknight is still a Flying & Steel Pokémon.
However, all his Steel type moves can deal extra damage.

When a player goes to build a team to counter Corviknight, They can still use the same check/counter process everyone has used for generations.

Corviknight is Flying & Steel.
The player would find the weakness of those types and begin searching for a counter.
They wouldn’t have to try and account for Corviknight turning to a Bug Type or random Grass Type.

TO ME THE ABOVE TERA IMPLEMENTATION SEEMS FAIR.
It is just what I think though.
 
I want to give my Seasoned Beginner point of view on the new Tera mechanic.
(ELO 1,121 Baby)

I find myself torn with the new Tera Mechanic.
Some parts of the new Tera Mechanic I enjoy.
Some parts of the new Tera Mechanic I feel needs to be removed.

I will start with the negative first.
I don’t like Pokémon changing to unknown types.

Example: You are using Jolteon as your Sweeper.

Jolteon is Electric type.
I bring in a Ground type to Counter/Check you.

You Tera Jolteon to a Grass Type and blast my Ground Type to death.
or
You Tera Jolteon to a Ice Type and blast my Ground Type to death.
or
You Tera Jolteon to a Water Type and blast my Ground Type to death.


Now the question is how could the above been avoided?
What could I have done to save myself in any way?

Some people have said by having the Tera Revealed at the start of a battle (Preview) it would help.
I don’t see that helping either because players can’t change their team at Preview.

Remember, in the above example we are pretending Jolteon is the Meta S Tier Sweeper, I built and designed my team with Jolteon in mind.
I knew the opponent could potentially use Jolteon as a Sweeper.
I added in Ground Type in preparation to meet his Electric moves with my Ground type.

This is how players have done Checks & Counters in Pokémon for over 8 Generations.
Now all of a sudden the Ground type who use to Counter Electric can no longer do it.

I need to have 4 different Pokémon to counter 1 Jolteon.
I would need all 4 types to effectively have a counter to 1 Jolteon.

THE TERA TYPE CHANGING TO SOMETHING UNKNOWN IS GAME BREAKING.
I want to take a moment to point out the underlined word in my above sentence.
I will come back to this underlined word when I talk about the Pro’s of Terra.

Changing Different Types completely breaks the game because it ruins the way we check and counter Pokémon.
Every Pokémon in the game is Poison Type with the current Tera Mechanic.
Is it not?

Now, Let me tell you the part of Tera Mechanic which I enjoy.
I LOVE TERA TYPE CHANGING TO SOMETHING KNOWN.

You might wonder what is the difference between the Unknown and the Known.
Lets go back to the Jolteon Example so you can understand.

Jolteon is a Electric type.
The Electric Type Jolteon has is KNOWN.
Jolteon original type has forever been Electric.

I don’t approve of Jolteon Tera into a Fairy which is completely Unknown.
I do approve of Jolteon Tera into Electric which is Known.

Jolteon is Electric if Jolteon Tera into Electric all it does is increase the damage of Jolteon Electric Type moves.

Think about it from a Team Building Perspective.
To me Tera Boost is similar to a Pokémon using Choice Specs or Life Orb.

It increases the Pokémon damage with out needing to use Choice Specs or Life Orb which than allows them to have more flexibility in using other Slot items which they normally wouldn’t be able to use.

Lets give another example:
Lets say the Pokémon is Corviknight.
Corviknight is Flying & Steel.

If Corviknight was to Tera, I feel Corviknight would only have 2 options Flying or Steel.
His typing doesn’t change!

What changes his the Damage of his moves depending on the Tera Type he picks.
If he picks Flying Tera, Corviknight is still a Flying & Steel Pokémon.
However, all his Flying type moves can deal extra damage.

If he picks Steel Tera, Corviknight is still a Flying & Steel Pokémon.
However, all his Steel type moves can deal extra damage.

When a player goes to build a team to counter Corviknight, They can still use the same check/counter process everyone has used for generations.

Corviknight is Flying & Steel.
The player would find the weakness of those types and begin searching for a counter.
They wouldn’t have to try and account for Corviknight turning to a Bug Type or random Grass Type.

TO ME THE ABOVE TERA IMPLEMENTATION SEEMS FAIR.
It is just what I think though.
The thing I don't like about this is it completely invalidates any defensive use for tera, essentially making it an only offense tool which I think isn't exactly a good choice. I'm not completely sure on what the answer to the tera problem is, and if push comes to shove this idea has merit, but I just don't resonate with it much as it takes away a tool for a lot of defensive Pokemon (who are already hanging on by a thread) and centralizes the defensive meta on the few mons that resist the STAB attacks that are most common
 
I'm a new player to singles and really in general (got into comp with VGC last gen and some casual singles at the end), so I'm no singles genius by any means. This thread is absolutely massive and filled with people like me just tossing in essays, but I'll put some of my thoughts out there regardless. And for what it's worth, I've been rolling up the ladder and am doing by far the best on ladder that I have ever done (currently in the top 100 range), which made me want to post some of my thoughts in the hopes that maybe they have some merit behind them.

I'll mostly be talking about stuff relating to the team I've been using and having success with, because like I said I am a very inexperienced player and probably can't speak to much outside of what I've been playing with. Also, I haven't looked at many of the previous posts since there are so many, so I'm sorry if I rehash something that has already been mentioned in another post!

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:sv/gallade:
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Gallade is on my short list of guys that I have had the most fun with so far this gen because of how crazily powerful it is with its new Sharpness ability, and I don't think I've ran into a single opposing Gallade despite how powerful it is. Obviously it has several warts that keep it from being the hero of the metagame, because its speed and bulk are very lackluster. Generally, it can only sponge one hit, and in some games its low speed means it really doesn't offer much besides being a sac or getting off a Shadow Sneak for chip. However, the power on this thing is INSANE. I haven't really calced at all this gen, but anecdotally I can say that if you get Gallade in on a mon that it's faster than, you are basically guaranteed a KO if you're Choice Band. Psycho cut shreds basically anything that isn't immune, such as doing half to a Gholdengo that tries to come in on Sacred Sword, and Sword destroys anything else that Psycho Cut doesn't, mainly Corv. If you run into stall or even teams with a few bulky, slow options and you're packing banded Gallade, it feels like an instant win because fatter or even balanced teams just don't have the resources to withstand getting blown apart by Gallade. The best way to sum up how banded Gallade feels is a physical Nidoking. When it's faster, it picks up kill after kill and is just held back by not the greatest speed and bulk. That being said, I am still stunned that I seem to be the only one using it.

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:sv/meowscarada:
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Not going to talk too much about this one since I think a lot of people know how good Meowscarada is. However, the wrinkle I'll add is that I've been running Choice Scarf with no Trick (Flower Trick, TP, Knock, U-Turn) because I really think this thing is a lifesaver with its scarf and that tricking the scarf away hurts a lot in the long run given how fast teams are. With the scarf it feels like it outspeeds everything, even basically everything at +1, so by tricking away your scarf you have to be perfect to not allow yourself to get set up on at all for the rest of the match. ThunderPunch has also saved me and provided me with a lot of mid-ground opportunities to the point that I like it over trick. Basically, I want to throw in my opinion that running Trick and losing your scarf really hurts, and you're better off to keep your scarf with no Trick and find other ways to kill fat mons because the scarf is that important. However, that may be due to the style of teams I like being more balance/bulky and not having many fast options outside of the scarfer. Again, I'm a newer player so take it all with a grain of salt.

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:sv/clodsire:
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Again, everyone knows what Clodsire does, so I'll try to keep my rambling short. With Palafin running rampant, I see most people saying that Water Absorb Clod is what you HAVE to run, and I really disagree. Basically every Palafin is going to have coverage, be it Zen Headbutt or Ice Punch, along with Taunt or Sub, that will allow it beat your Water Absorb Clodsire, making you potential setup fodder for a mon you're trying to counter. I introduce to you, Tera Water Unaware Clodsire! Setup Palafin can't beat this, banded has to predict correctly with Zen Headbutt and still may not 2HKO with a lot of physical bulk (again, I haven't really calced so take that bit with a huge grain of salt), and this retains a lot of versatility outside of the Palafin matchup that Water Absorb doesn't have. For the sake of not writing an essay, I won't get into too much, but Unaware Clod counters an unreal amount of the setup currently in the metagame, and defensive tera water lets you get around even more that would have beat you naturally outside of setup with Ice or Ground coverage. Long story short, Water Absorb is overhyped and skilless Unaware bailouts are where it's at, baby.

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:sv/tyranitar:
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Wow, it's Tyranitar, a new and cool mon that none of us have ever seen before! Basically, SpDef Ttar completely shuts down Chi-Yu which is otherwise really tough to handle and can also serve as an emergency check to pretty much any of the special attackers in the game. It does really struggle against the Tusk paradox guys and a lot of the physical attackers, since it seems like they all have some sort of Fighting or Ground coverage, or U-Turn, so it's far from perfect and I would say probably even pretty bad outside of its little niche because of how much its typing lets it get picked on. Regardless, watching Chi-Yu do an effective 4% to you after leftovers is really funny since that thing blows up everyone else, so I've had a lot of fun with TTar even with it being bullied by a lot of other stuff.

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:sv/grimmsnarl:
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Since my bread and butter is VGC, a little part of me died when I saw that Grimmsnarl was given Parting Shot. I also thought that it would be sick in singles for screens hyper offense since it could now pivot out with Parting Shot, but I was honestly really disappointed. There are lot of dark types, as well as Gholdengo, that can cancel your Prankster Parting Shot and turn any momentum you wanted into momentum for your opponent. Priority also really messes with parting shot since basically anything with priority will be faster than Grimm and can pop you with a prio move before you get Parting Shot off. If you run Spirit Break or Play Rough while keeping Parting Shot to try and punish switch ins that don't care about PS, you miss out running full support with Taunt, meaning you can get entire legions of hazards set up on you as you put your screens up and pivot out. Maybe its because I suck at building and am a greenhorn singles player, but Grimm really disappointed me and I think despite how demonic Parting Shot sounds in theory, it's probably better to just run Screens/Taunt/Fairy move.

If anyone read all my rambling, THANK YOU! Allow me to leave you with my closing statement: I hate Gholdengo and would love for nothing more than to see it get deleted, then recreated just to get deleted again.
 
Hazard stack with Wo-Chien and Ting-Lu is busted AF.

ting-lu can set the SR+ hazards itself, and can steel Tera to break past iron bundle. I’m using heavy slam due to the general anti-offence utility.

wo-chien is bulky asf and has access to knock off and taunt to break all switch ins, whilst racking up the hazards means that gradually your opponents HDBs will become non-existent. It naturally outspeeds most tanks, and you can add a rocky helmet Pokémon to switch into u turns.

gholdengo is essential as the blocker, only iron treads can get past gholdengo easily, I.e. without risk. This is handy, because you obviously guessed what has an easy time switching into iron treads.

running an iron treads of your own gets you another bulky knock off user, that can also beat all the hazard spin blockers. Either iron treads or children go have a handy u turn resistance to check the inevitable u turns on Wo-chien

here’s the core:

:wo-chien: :ting-lu: :iron treads: :gholdengo:
 
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I’m going to go into detail on trying to look at this anti-Tera post, as it’s one of the first that isn’t just saying Tera is unpredictable so it should be banned. Starting out with I have no hate for anti-Tera people, and value both opinions. However, I have seen more compelling arguments from the pro-Tera side, so let’s look at this argument, shall we?




I mostly agree with this point. I do think that it isn’t too unhealthy because you can EV for it. However, I would like to say that same type Tera is probably the exact wrong way to be using this. Outside of maybe Palafin and Dragapult, I don’t see this being too useful, since the power boost is not too noticeable at this point in the meta.



Once again, I agree with this point. Tera Blast is a very high risk high reward version of hidden power that almost requires you to Tera any Pokémon that has this move. One possible exception would be Magnezone, which can run Tera Fire Tera Blast, but doesn’t have to Tera if there’s nothing it needs to trap. Pult and Tera Blast Palafin variants NEED to Tera to use this move, as otherwise they are playing with 3 moves. Very high risk, but high reward and can be used in interesting ways. I personally no longer think that Tera Blast is broken as I did earlier, because of it’s high risk nature.



Roaring Moon is more of the problem here than Tera, as I firmly believe that Moon is broken and Tera looking broken is a symptom of that. It doesn’t need Dragon coverage, as Throat Chop/Jaw Lock hits hard enough for neutral, and it doesn’t want to lock itself into Outrage. Acro disintegrates Breloom anyway, and Booster Energy speed Roaring Moon at +1 can outspeed even Booster Energy Iron Bundle and hit it for solid damage with it’s Dark type STAB. Tera Steel has its own set of problems, notably making you somehow weaker to Palafin and other revenge killers while not fixing your Fighting weakness. Tera Flying is an all or nothing gambit that can flip Roaring Moon’s checks on their heads, but doesn’t change some matchups, like against Ice types. Thus the risk factor for picking your Tera types still is there, and Tera isn’t a de facto “Delete all of my checks” button. You have to think about how it works with your team, as to maximize your advantage. Short version that also answers the above question: How is Tera matchup fishing different from regular matchup fishing? Wouldn’t you rather Tera into a more universally useful type? Well, that depends on your team composition what the most useful Tera type is, and a good player can look at the team and be like “Hm! This pokemon is likely this Tera type because of this threat into their team!” As the meta develops, Tera types for pokemon should shift to 1 to 3 types, easing the prediction and allowing for more creative strategies.



Reminder here that Tera can only be used once per battle. One it’s used, the jig is up. If, say, Roaring Moon is facing off against an Iron Bundle and Palafin team. I know, I know, not the most optimal. But, say the Roaring Moon has the Steel tera type. You would want to try to set up against the Iron Bundle by taking it by surprise, but then the damage you take puts you into Palafin Mach Punch range. You can try to set up on Palafin here, but you would take a lot of damage, possibly too much if Palafin pulls out a fighting move. So you would want to set up on something else, no? Well, the opponent manages to kill your Roaring Moon by using their Tera Electric on their Iron Bundle to take a Tera Flying Acrobatics and kill back with Tera Blast, or chip it enough with Freeze-Dry to put it into Palafin range. 1 for 1 trade, both players used their Tera, neither swept. Either that or Iron Bundle lives and now you have to revenge kill it. That’s how every HO meta for the past few generations has worked. Tera is a symptom, not a cause.



This isn’t the greatest comparison in my opinion, since this is more like if Pex and Fini were on every team and had this interaction every game. However, your opponent could assume you were Shed Shell every game and play accordingly. Even with that, Tera trends are comparable to Z move trends, but with less immediate power in the mix. Defensive Tera usage actually leads to a more healthy metagame, since Tera will always be easier to counterplay once it’s revealed. So this is less of a “Shed Shell Pex but it only works 50% of the time” situation but is more of a “Shed Shell vs Gunk Shot Pex(which yes is a set I actually used to deal with Whirlpool Fini, it did work) to deal with Fini” situation. Both have different opportunity cost, and both solve the issue, just one is a more defensive method and one is a more aggressive method.

All in all, I appreciate the post as it’s by far one of the best anti-Tera posts out there so far, but these are my personal thoughts on it. Kudos to you, escarlata, and happy laddering!

edit bcus I forgor to say this: I don’t think now is the best time to take action on Tera, as the meta has barely taken shape yet. Let’s hope to see some of the OP new mons go before even thinking of giving Tera the boot. Even with that in mind, I feel as if Tera will feel more manageable as the gen goes on, and it will be a central part of the balance.
Wow, thank you for the in-depth breakdown of my stupid rant, and I really appreciate the time taken to address all the points I've talked about.
I think judging by the response, my Roaring Moon example was not really elaborated properly.

Now that I'm actually properly awake, I'm going to try to summarise my issue with Tera a bit better.
I'm honestly fine with losing if the opponent outplayed me with Terastalisation and just admit that they are the better player.
What I'm not fine with is if I am forced to make the 50/50 when I have been making the correct reads leading up to it.
In the same example with Roaring Moon, say for example if it switches in on my low HP Corviknight. Because I have Breloom and Ice Shard Chien-Pao in the back, I know U-turn into one of them is 100% the right play here, and it's not exactly rocket science that Roaring Moon is definitely going to Tera the next turn. If I send in the correct mon, I'm going to snipe it down with priority or at least force it out with Booster Energy expended. Except there is almost no way to "skillfully" determine what it is going to change into.
If I switch in Breloom, push the Mach Punch button and end up eating an Acrobatics to the face, it doesn't feel like being outplayed; if I switch in Chien-Pao, push the Ice Shard button and end up eating an Iron Head, it doesn't feel like being outplayed either; in both these cases, it feels like losing 50/50.

I know I've been harping a lot on Roaring Moon as the biggest abuser of this dynamic, because it feels especially broken on it and Chien-Pao at the moment. But I'm anti-Tera because it is unhealthy and has low skill expression, not because it is broken. It is as unhealthy on Jumpluff as it is on it is on Moon, even if the former is clearly not broken. There is clearly more opportunity cost to using your Tera on Jumpluff, but the interaction of "do I switch in Breloom or Chien-Pao here" still applies if you up against a +2 SD Jumpluff. The punish is not as hard if you guess wrong because its lul Jumpluff, but the fact that you have to "guess" here at all instead of "predict" is already a red flag. In no world should the optimal play vs Jumpluff here be "maybe I should Tera Steel Chien-Pao just in case".

In another drunk past gen analogy, let's say we are facing +1 DD Mence, we have switch initiative and send in our trusted Mamoswine knowing that Ice Shard is going to take it down, it's all fair play if he survives because he is carrying Yache Berry, except this fker decides to Mega evolve into Mega Metagross.

Edit 11/27:
I know this post has been quote tagged, asking how scouting for Tera is different from scouting for sets. I’m not gonna directly quote reply to it because because the newest page is kinda aggressive at the moment and I don’t want to be caught in the crossfire (yes I’m a coward).

Scouting is a valid line of play but my problem with Tera specifically lies in the offense vs offense matchup (as my initial post detailed, I’m perfectly fine with what Tera does to the Balance or Stall matchup). Offense vs offense is all about reading your position and trading more favorably than the opponent does, but Tera makes that unreliable every turn.

I specifically used an example where I have the switch initiative to illustrate that. Call my mindset old, but I believe that the one with the switch initiative should always have the positional advantage by the end of the turn, at least without the opponent making a hard read. Yet with 2 checks to Jumpluff, I’m only in the favorable position half the time. If I need a third check to scout for moves, I’m basically using half my team to account for Jumpluff, for one singular turn. Defensive teams can afford that, offense just can’t. And if fking Jumpluff needs 3+ slots to reliable check, then I’m blaming the mechanic.
 
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Tera mechanic is really broken. For example, something like this

Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast
- Roost

that was probably crap in past generations thanks to Tera is impossible to revenge kill or counter it before u scout the type of Tera.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718631971 <-- very dumb replay but i simply setup in front of a pokemon that is supposed to give hard time to a psychic type and it can bypass a pokemon with unaware and still winning after a crit. After i switch to Fight the only pokemon able to revenge killing with a priority is MAYBE CB Scizor or CB Nite after Tera. 60 base Def isn't a lot but if u it neutral is pretty hard to kill.

Notice i am not even supporting it with Shed Tail or Screens because thanks to Tera it can support itself and at the same time, hit x2 (or x4) the typing that is supposed to be immune. A mechanic that turns a pokemon with that terrible stats (101 SAtk, 105 Spe is maybe UU or RU worth) into something very problematic can't stay in the metagame OU. Is like an unlimited natural gift + an improved berry that resist damage with no cost or investement, simply too good.
 
The thing I don't like about this is it completely invalidates any defensive use for tera, essentially making it an only offense tool which I think isn't exactly a good choice. I'm not completely sure on what the answer to the tera problem is, and if push comes to shove this idea has merit, but I just don't resonate with it much as it takes away a tool for a lot of defensive Pokemon (who are already hanging on by a thread) and centralizes the defensive meta on the few mons that resist the STAB attacks that are most common
You bring up a fair counter point.
My recommendation would stop defensive use of Tera.

Truthfully, I think I would be ok with that loss.
Trading Defensive Tera in exchange for less rage quits from Offensive Tera is a good trade to me.

I didn’t play the Z-Move generation because I couldn’t deal with the Type Altering.
Similarly, My experience with Gen 9 could be short lived as well.

Enemy Players brings Jolteon to Battle.
I bring Rhydon to Battle.

Enemy Player Tera into Grass killing my Rhydon.
- Some people might get filled laughter and say that is just part of Gen 9.
- Some people might compliment the Enemy Player saying he did Good Move and is very skilled.

The emotions I feel when the above happens to me is anger.
I get angry because I feel as if I been cheated or lost to some gimmick.
I don’t find it skillful in any way.

Maybe, I am missing something.
It is still very early in season.
I will wait a little longer to see how this all plays out.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Sandy Shocks @ Passho Berry
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

the shocker. This mon has a really solid STAB typing and it's frighteningly good against Corv teams, also just threatens a 2HKO on most hazard removers in the tier unless it's some weak shot like SpD Great Tusk. The Passho Berry can be substituted for Booster Energy or something (Timid still gets a SpA buff which is actually pretty fire) but I like it cause you can be a one-time stop to Palafin nonsense if you're healthy enough. Overall pretty neat Rocker with good offensive pressure and Volt = good mon imo. Not really amazing but it deserves a shoutout cause nobody's really talked about it in the thread.

Also, I agree with Palafin/Iron Bundle being busted, but there is no way Chi-Yu shouldn't be mentioned in the possible ban discussion, especially if Palafin goes. Absolutely ridiculous mon with very, VERY limited defensive switch-ins, the Tera Water set is also really messed up for obvious reasons (no more Jet Punch kills haha!) Ladder has already started abusing the fuck out of this mon and honestly I'm glad so it can get out of this tier quicker. God I hate Chi-Yu.

also if you play Gholdengo hazards you're a weenie
 
Sandy Shocks @ Passho Berry
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock

the shocker. This mon has a really solid STAB typing and it's frighteningly good against Corv teams, also just threatens a 2HKO on most hazard removers in the tier unless it's some weak shot like SpD Great Tusk. The Passho Berry can be substituted for Booster Energy or something (Timid still gets a SpA buff which is actually pretty fire) but I like it cause you can be a one-time stop to Palafin nonsense if you're healthy enough. Overall pretty neat Rocker with good offensive pressure and Volt = good mon imo. Not really amazing but it deserves a shoutout cause nobody's really talked about it in the thread.

Also, I agree with Palafin/Iron Bundle being busted, but there is no way Chi-Yu shouldn't be mentioned in the possible ban discussion, especially if Palafin goes. Absolutely ridiculous mon with very, VERY limited defensive switch-ins, the Tera Water set is also really messed up for obvious reasons (no more Jet Punch kills haha!) Ladder has already started abusing the fuck out of this mon and honestly I'm glad so it can get out of this tier quicker. God I hate Chi-Yu.

also if you play Gholdengo hazards you're a weenie
I think this thing (sandy shocks) is gonna blow up once pala and bundle are banned, and chi-yu is a good point because that scarf set is terrifying, and its only getting better with bundle and pala gone (now it can tera fairy or steel or some shit!). overall even with the broken waters gone we have a long way to go even before the alleged home update. also i think once the meta stables out after home i think we should retest some things? thats a topic for another time but i just want to touch on that.
 
Bellibolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electromorphosis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
- Chilling Water



Don't know if this has been talked about, but I think Bellibolt has some niche in the metagame, especially with ghouldengo and iron bundle running around everywhere right now. Full spdef Bellibolt takes most special attacks very well (non specs bundle does about 25-30 with freeze dry and less than 40 with ice beam), and with slack off and boots, can ignore the hazard stacking and recover off hits. Specs Chi-Yu is still a complete problem for Belli, but scarf does not 2HKO Belli from full. Belli also has utility as a pivot with volt switch, although most of the time it fits on balance teams as it has to recover off damage. Paired with corviknight, the two have great synergy, as Corvi can switch into great tusk and other ground types, while belli can take special hits that defensive corvi wants to avoid. Along with great tusk, I think these three form a viable defensive core, while also being able to spin/defog and set up rocks. Haven't played too many games, but I think it's an idea worth testing further.
 
Bellibolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Electromorphosis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave
- Chilling Water



Don't know if this has been talked about, but I think Bellibolt has some niche in the metagame, especially with ghouldengo and iron bundle running around everywhere right now. Full spdef Bellibolt takes most special attacks very well (non specs bundle does about 25-30 with freeze dry and less than 40 with ice beam), and with slack off and boots, can ignore the hazard stacking and recover off hits. Specs Chi-Yu is still a complete problem for Belli, but scarf does not 2HKO Belli from full. Belli also has utility as a pivot with volt switch, although most of the time it fits on balance teams as it has to recover off damage. Paired with corviknight, the two have great synergy, as Corvi can switch into great tusk and other ground types, while belli can take special hits that defensive corvi wants to avoid. Along with great tusk, I think these three form a viable defensive core, while also being able to spin/defog and set up rocks. Haven't played too many games, but I think it's an idea worth testing further.
I like this but also i think AV hands might do its job better. wish support is better than ever with it being the only 16pp healing move, (plus vappy is a very nice backup check to the broken waters), as well as the fact that it is overall bulkier and stronger. I do like the corv/tusk/electric core though, that sounds pretty solid. keep testing that frog, it might be really good who knows?
 
Palafin is my beloved son, and I am here to help ensure he fulfills his destiny of being banned to Ubers by explaining in *far* too much detail what makes Palafin so strong.

To start, we'll assume the BU/Jet Punch/Drain Punch/Taunt set that has become standard. We won't overthink the EVs for now and we'll just call it Jolly 252/252 with 4 in HP, though trading some speed for bulk is better. We also won't assume an item, just know that Punching Glove pushes some of these calcs over the edge, while Leftovers leaves you with more health in the case where you don't need that oomph, and boots gets you into position easier.

Let's assume an opposing Palafin has made it into the game in hero form at something near full health with either rocks or one layer of spikes on the field. How? Uh, let's say your Chi Yu just blasted something to hell, and now Palafin is staring down its throat. You switch out, rather than take the sac to Jet Punch, and the Palafin player predicts the switch to get to +1/+1. Whatever, I don't care.

However we got here, definitionally, all Pokemon (including whatever you chose to switch to) can be divided into two categories:
1. `Mons that can defeat or otherwise force Palafin out from this position
2. `Mons that can not

Whether or not Palafin is over-centralizing depends on how many `mons are in category 2, how much maintenance they require to be in position to maintain membership in category 2, and how much utility they bring to a team outside of the Palafin matchup (and negative utility is a thing).

To start, category 2 is almost entirely composed of Grass, Water, and Dragons, and Water Absorbers, since those are the only things that resist Jet Punch (yes, Jet Punch is that strong) and there simply aren't many generic Fat `mons around right now. The one exception I'll note early is Iron Hands. Iron Hands is the correct answer to BU Palafin. Iron Hands eats Palafin for breakfast. But that's just one `mon. Let's see if we can find some more, starting with the currently available water types:

Alolomola
Azumarill
Barraskewda
Basculin
Bruxish
Clawitzer
Cloyster

Dondozo
Dreadnaw
Floatzel

Gastrodon
Golduck
Gyarados
Iron Bundle
Lumineon
Luvdisc

Pelipper
Quagsire
Quaquaval
Quilfish

Slowbro
Slowking
Tatsugiri
Tauros-P

Toxapex
Vaporeon
Veluza
Wishcash
Wugtrio
TL;DR:
Newsflash: Water types miss scald (and, to a lesser extent, Toxic). Palafin doesn't need to swap out in fear of a stray burn, leaving it free to just power through nearly all of these. Also, it turns out there aren't actually many Bulky Waters in the vanilla release of SV. The full list of Water types that can technically switch into an established Palafin without fear and accomplish *anything* is:
  • Azumarill can just survive one +1 Jet Punch to get off Belly Drum and then another after Sitrus Berry recovery to KO with +6 Play Rough
  • Dondozo Getting taunted means you're probably switching out shortly after Palafin, but you will beat it
  • Gastrodon Needs a Storm Drain boost to outpace Drain Punch (after recovery) with Earth Power, but has the added benefit of clear smog to remove boosts even if it gets taunted
  • Gyarados It has to run Thunderbolt now that Power Whip is gone, so, that's sure something
  • Iron Bundle Specs/LO/SpA Booster Energy can OHKO with Freeze Dry, but it's not long for this world. Next.
  • Quagsire Unaware can technically outrace Jet Punch with EQ
  • Rotom Wash Pivot sets can survive 2 Drain Punches to 2HKO with Thunderbolt
  • Slowtwins Can win with Psychic and/or Future Sight and shrug off damage with Regenerator
  • Toxapex Similar to above, except wins with Sludge Bomb + Rocky Helmet chip (+ poison if everything goes your way)
Most of these are already known. Gastro is the most promising option I haven't seen used much, and all of them, bar defensive Gyarados, are actually potentially broadly useful. All the switch is obvious from a mile out on all of these, but, hey, at least you're making Palafin work for it. Also, if you really want to stretch:
  • The new Water/Dragon Tatsugiri can suffer through a Drain Punch and KO with Specs Draco Meteor, I guess?
  • Oh, and the new Water/Psychic fish Veluza technically has a 22.7% chance to 2HKO with Band + Sharpness boosted Psycho Cut before it gets 3HKOd by Aqua Jet, so that's...something
On to the grass types, which you would hope would be more viable since they can both resist Jet Punch and threaten back:
Abomasnow
Amoongus
Appletun
Arbolivia
Brambleghast

Breloom
Brute Bonnet
Cacturn
Flapple
Gogoat
Jumpluff
Leafeon
Lilligant

Lurantis
Meowscarada
Mow-tom
Sawsbuck
Scovillain
Sunflora
Toedscruel
Tropius
Tsareena

Wo-Chien
The Grasses come with a laundry list of asterisks:
Pretty much anything that learns leaf storm with at least base 90 SpA can be specced to survive a Jet Punch and/or Drain Punch and revenge Palafin...but, uh, that's pretty obviously telegraphed, and not many of these things offer much beyond that, so I omitted those `mons unless Leaf Storm was part of their normal kit. Similarly, lots of things that learn Giga Drain and aren't fighting weak can be given a defense-oriented build and slowly win the 1v1, but...do you want to get swept by Chi-Yu? Because, I mean, that's how you set your team up to get swept by Chi-Yu (unless you're running Palafin, too, lololol).

The "actual" options, in order of increasing absurdity, are:
  • The Spore users (Brute Bonnet, defensive Breloom, Amoongus, Wo Chien). These all force Palafin to make a pretty brutal taunt/attack/switch choice. Amoongus and Wo-Chien can both beat Palafin 1v1 even if Sleep Clause makes Spore not an option (Wo-Chien just barely)
  • Band Meowscarada OHKOs with Flower Trick's guaranteed crits (Scarf can suffer a let down against Bulk-invested versions)
  • Scarf Mow-tom actually runs Leaf Storm normally, but this isn't RU. That's probably gonna be a recipe for disaster.
  • Similar to Meowscarada but less, uh, good, is Flapple, who can eat a Drain Punch and KO with Band Hustle GravApple
  • Appletun can eat 2 Drain Punches and 2HKO with Apple Acid
  • Lurantis, uh, also runs leaf storm?
  • Tropius is a Pokemon that exists and resists both Jet Punch and Drain Punch with access to Grass STAB
So, let's move on to the Dragon Types. There's bound to be some good stuff there!
Altaria
Baxcalibur
Cyclizar

Dragalge
Dragapult
Dragonite
Garchomp
Goodra
Haxorus
Hydreigon

Noivern
Roaring Moon
Salamence
That's more like it! Look at all those beautiful, mons, resisting both Water and Fighting!

Except, what if I told you Palafin doesn't need to run Taunt. It can run Ice Punch instead if its team doesn't handle Dragons (or Grasses) well. What if...what if I showed you this calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palafin: 297-351 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (again, Palafin should always run some HP)
+1 252 Atk Palafin Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 362-428 (114.1 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Most broken Pokemon aren't broken on the basis of one set. Just like pitchers, everything works as a counter to their fastball. You don't know if that Palafin is running Taunt or if it's running Ice Punch until you need to know, for good or for bad. You don't know if it's running both of them and forgoing Drain Punch. You don't know if it's Band Wave Crash until it hits Iron Hands (again, the only correct answer to the BU set) for 70% on the switch.

You can talk about Tera as a way around this, and, yeah, Grass Tera can be a good way to beat Palafin, but then you need to consider that Palafin could be running that abomination itemless Flying Tera Acrobatics set somebody posted earlier (which, curse you for beating me to it), in which case:
+1 252 Atk Flying Tera Type Palafin Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 590-696 (115.2 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Flying Tera Type Palafin Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 399-469 (125.8 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Flying Tera Type Palafin Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 566-668 (131 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Flying Tera Type Palafin Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 211-250 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Flying Tera Type Palafin Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 138-163 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery (more impressive than it sounds, I swear)

I hear a few of you still trying to find arguments to keep the Hero we Deserve around. Yes, screens are a great option against Palafin, but they're an even better option *for* Palafin. Sun is pretty nice, but that's just one play style with its own major limitations. Just accept the truth: Palafin is simply too glorious for this realm. Please ban Palafin to Ubers.
 
I know this has been said before but it is so refreshing to have so much transparency and communication from the council to know where their head is at. This is the most fun I’ve ever had at the start of the meta, and the most welcoming and non-toxic environment I’ve ever seen Smogon have in years. Hats off to the council, mods, and coders who all work so hard to make our community possible. (Special thanks especially to Finch!)

As for the meta itself - I don’t want to retreat any tired ground about how completely busted Palafin is, the fact that Iron Bundle has no switch-ins beyond Blissey, or the fact that terra may prove to be a bit much once the meta settles down.

Rather I want to ask a few questions:

-How are you all handling Chien-Pao? What reliable counters do you use?
-Have you found any specific, creative answers to big threats in the meta?
-Most under-rated mon?
-Most over-rated mon?
-Has anyone had any success with Espathra? I am trying to make that thing work for a friend who loves it but MAN it sucks. Any tips?
 
Wow, thank you for the in-depth breakdown of my stupid rant, and I really appreciate the time taken to address all the points I've talked about.
I think judging by the response, my Roaring Moon example was not really elaborated properly.

Now that I'm actually properly awake, I'm going to try to summarise my issue with Tera a bit better.
I'm honestly fine with losing if the opponent outplayed me with Terastalisation and just admit that they are the better player.
What I'm not fine with is if I am forced to make the 50/50 when I have been making the correct reads leading up to it.
In the same example with Roaring Moon, say for example if it switches in on my low HP Corviknight. Because I have Breloom and Ice Shard Chien-Pao in the back, I know U-turn into one of them is 100% the right play here, and it's not exactly rocket science that Roaring Moon is definitely going to Tera the next turn. If I send in the correct mon, I'm going to snipe it down with priority or at least force it out with Booster Energy expended. Except there is almost no way to "skillfully" determine what it is going to change into.
If I switch in Breloom, push the Mach Punch button and end up eating an Acrobatics to the face, it doesn't feel like being outplayed; if I switch in Chien-Pao, push the Ice Shard button and end up eating an Iron Head, it doesn't feel like being outplayed either; in both these cases, it feels like losing 50/50.

I know I've been harping a lot on Roaring Moon as the biggest abuser of this dynamic, because it feels especially broken on it and Chien-Pao at the moment. But I'm anti-Tera because it is unhealthy and has low skill expression, not because it is broken. It is as unhealthy on Jumpluff as it is on it is on Moon, even if the former is clearly not broken. There is clearly more opportunity cost to using your Tera on Jumpluff, but the interaction of "do I switch in Breloom or Chien-Pao here" still applies if you up against a +2 SD Jumpluff. The punish is not as hard if you guess wrong because its lul Jumpluff, but the fact that you have to "guess" here at all instead of "predict" is already a red flag. In no world should the optimal play vs Jumpluff here be "maybe I should Tera Steel Chien-Pao just in case".

In another drunk past gen analogy, let's say we are facing +1 DD Mence, we have switch initiative and send in our trusted Mamoswine knowing that Ice Shard is going to take it down, it's all fair play if he survives because he is carrying Yache Berry, except this fker decides to Mega evolve into Mega Metagross.
I have been enjoying the dialogue about Tera between you and the other user, was wondering if I might contribute a few thoughts as well

You’ve used Roaring Moon as an example that leads to a forced 50/50 to demonstrate uncompetitiveness, however some others have pointed out it may be the case that the Pokémon itself is the issue rather than the mechanic. So to get away from that, what if we looked at another case with Palafin. Just as you described that you would want to switch to Breloom if you knew Roaring Moon was Steel Tera or Chein-Pao if you knew it was Flying Tera, couldn’t the same argument be made if you had one counter on your team to a Banded Palafin and a different counter to a Bulk Up Palafin? Making the wrong move could be an opportunity for the opponent to gain momentum, is scouting for a Tera type any different than scouting for any other info?

I agree with others that it’s very likely that specific Tera threats will emerge (probably not more than 4-5 types would be viable per Pokémon) and become part of the ‘known’ landscape of things to prepare for. This does mean there will be a much bigger variety of options out there, but I think it is extremely fair to simply have the selected Tera types be known to the opponent at the start of battle. Would this solve the core of the issue you are finding with the lack of skill determining the outcome of battles? You would, for example, know exactly who to switch to for that Roaring Moon. Then it just becomes a matter of determining if the Pokémon itself is too strong, rather than the mechanic.

Of course, until the player decides to activate Tera you don’t know which of their Pokémon they’re going to change the type of, but when you know each of their potential options I think that opens up a huge variety of fascinating strategy and counter play that would be a real shame to eliminate altogether
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Lmao OU yeeted my first post.

Basically I tried my hand at tinkering with a team and I found my lack of a suitable Ground resist to pair up with Corviknight if he gets overwhelmed by Great Tusks, as they so often do. No good Grasses that resist Ground and aren't weak to Close Combat exist. That is until I found HIM

:ss/Appletun:
Iron Apple (Appletun) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Tera Type: Grass / Fighting
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Apple Acid
- Recover

Iron Apple here, he is pretty fun to use. It compresses a lot of things into one for me, as a Ground check, Water check, Electric type check, a physical Wall, and a potential IDBP sweeper all in one. The key to it's success is a deceptively useful typing in Grass Dragon, the ability to lose its Dragon typing when it's no longer useful and Thick Fat. It basically blanks anything Parafin can do outside of Choice Band Adamant Tera Ice Ice Punch and that's if I have not Tera'd myself. It bullies Great Tusk, checks non Flying Tera Roaring Moon (which the aforementioned RH Brave Bird Corviknight does wonderfully against), and once it sheds it's Dragon typing, it can go toe to too with Ghost Tera Dragapult, and even beat Chien Pao AND non Choice Specs Iron Bundle. It's gotten me through some close calls, and I think it's a pretty funny and unique example of necessity being the mother of invention.

Replays of the demon Iron Apple in action

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718709895-gcxdqho58h9q54wm07r1mff9kgpyrmcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718706467-h0yztdig4jhx7tdp3gt4an27pscki01pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718732352-dqcxptph4qhy0wwe1kef25a9gjm1pospw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718727147-6kih2439b9ba8knkp3wf0dz7agk7wzjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718722820-iryzhilpc1qxsx0rb6rrh99tq05mm1lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1718713564-j3ronkjwvddmdnaxwh09oue38avaewgpw

I got another replay of Appletun doing very well but I choked and lost the game (unrelated to Apple) because I am stupid so I will not be posting it no thank you
 
I know this has been said before but it is so refreshing to have so much transparency and communication from the council to know where their head is at. This is the most fun I’ve ever had at the start of the meta, and the most welcoming and non-toxic environment I’ve ever seen Smogon have in years. Hats off to the council, mods, and coders who all work so hard to make our community possible. (Special thanks especially to Finch!)

As for the meta itself - I don’t want to retreat any tired ground about how completely busted Palafin is, the fact that Iron Bundle has no switch-ins beyond Blissey, or the fact that terra may prove to be a bit much once the meta settles down.

Rather I want to ask a few questions:

-How are you all handling Chien-Pao? What reliable counters do you use?
-Have you found any specific, creative answers to big threats in the meta?
-Most under-rated mon?
-Most over-rated mon?
-Has anyone had any success with Espathra? I am trying to make that thing work for a friend who loves it but MAN it sucks. Any tips?
I've been using Annihilape as a stallbreaker/utility, and it is performing amazingly well. In a meta where everything wants to flip turn/u-turn/volt switch on you, a bulk up Annihilape with drain punch and decent support can live forever, and every weak hit increases rage fist. With tera dark, you avoid getting knocked out by faster ghost types and sucker punches, plus you now lived yet another hit and got even stronger. It can even spin block and set rocks, this guy is nuts! Definitely think Annihilape is underrated right now.

As for Chien-Pao, I find that it dies pretty easily to any decent hit, so all you need is something it can't one-shot. Dozdozo, Garganacl, scarf Gholdengo (as long as you can predict the sucker punch), I've found a lot of ways to play around it. One of my favorites is Scream Tail, who (coincidentally) can run wish support for Annihilape :)
 
:wo-chien:

Wo-chien is so bulky it looks like it will be an OU mainstay after the departure of the current 5 Pokémon being discussed by the decision makers. All 5 are problematic for it.

• knock off has low distribution, and it can use it against everything. Meanwhile it’s less likely to have its own item knocked off

• access to taunt means that stall will struggle against it

• u turn bait is easy to combine with rocky helmet on bug resists

• once you’ve stacked the hazards, u turn switching will be disincentivised anyway.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
-How are you all handling Chien-Pao? What reliable counters do you use?
-Have you found any specific, creative answers to big threats in the meta?
-Most under-rated mon?
-Most over-rated mon?
-Has anyone had any success with Espathra? I am trying to make that thing work for a friend who loves it but MAN it sucks. Any tips?
  • I usually end up “handling” Chien-Pao by sacrificing a mon to bring in a revenge killer. I think that the most reliable answer to it right now is bulky Water-types. Azumarill is, at the moment, the only good thing that can confidently switch into Ice Spinner, Crunch, and Sacred Sword at the same time and OHKO back. Physically bulky Toxapex can switch into even Band sets if it’s healthy, then hit it with a Toxic, alternate Bunker and Recover, and pray Crunch doesn’t get a Defense drop. Although no one’s really using it, Paldean Tauros’s Water and Fire forms both body Chien-Pao, especially if you’re running Intimidate. I miss Tapu Fini.
  • I ran into someone running Vacuum Wave Lucario, which shredded my Cyclizar, Iron Bundle, and Chien-Pao (the only three mons I had left, if you’re wondering why I didn’t just send in something else).
  • I would say Garganacl, but a lot of people are agreeing that Game Freak somehow made a good defensive Rock-type (probably by accident, the same way they do anything actually good). It’s good enough to be at least mentioned in Council discussion at one point, though it’s definitely not seeing a ban anytime soon (and probably never at all). So for an actually underrated mon, I’d say Ting-Lu. The only reason people aren’t using this absolute behemoth is that basically every single thing on the ban radar beats it (although most of them fail to OHKO, which is impressive in itself). But once those threats are out of the way, boy howdy is Ting-Lu gonna turn up.
  • Lokix. Good Lord, Lokix. So it gets Tinted Lens First Impression and Axe Kick, so what? Its Attack is low enough that it doesn’t really scare anything with decent bulk and it gets absolutely nothing of note outside of that.
  • Haven’t had any success with Espathra personally, but Calm Mind + Speed Boost + Stored Power can be scary if it’s allowed to set up and all Sucker Punchers and Ice Sharders have been removed from the field. I could also see Hypnosis sets working, but that’s risky business.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
:wo-chien:

Wo-chien is so bulky it looks like it will be an OU mainstay after the departure of the current 5 Pokémon being discussed by the decision makers. All 5 are problematic for it.

• knock off has low distribution, and it can use it against everything. Meanwhile it’s less likely to have its own item knocked off

• access to taunt means that stall will struggle against it

• u turn bait is easy to combine with rocky helmet on bug resists

• once you’ve stacked the hazards, u turn switching will be disincentivised anyway.
Personally, I believe as long as Great Tusk is the premiere offensive Ground type in the tier Wo Chien is near useless, since you can run bulky Waters to check offensive Waters and the traditional Electric type pivot is near nowhere to be seen at this moment. Main reason you are running a Grass is check both Palafin and Ground types, and at the current part of the metagame Wo Chien is severely underperforming for good reason. It's just not that hot in OU imo.
 
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