Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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G-Luke said:
(I lost to 3 Gholdengo Spike Stacks)
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I expect Gholdengo Glimmora HO to eventually catch on, as the only reasonable outs to the hazards are Volcarona, Great Tusk, and Torkoal since Gholdengo is technically a very good balloon user on that team. At least until we see the integration of new mons like Landorus-T, its gonna be very difficult to deal with.

Since Torkoal is good into it and faciliates the other HO team I think is really strong (protospam), it probably is anticipating the Flutter ban to deprioritize torkoal's presence a bit.

That said, just run boots lmao
 
termi said:
Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost/Fighting
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball

While people have been mostly running physically oriented sets, a set like this one is much more immediately threatening due to possessing a superior Fairy move and great special coverage, while still sporting a powerful CC for special walls. I'm sure this isn't the exact set people would run, but I think it gives a decent idea. It doesn't really get walled by much other than Pdef Corivknight which is pretty much nonexistent as of yet.
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As someone who's been running mixed Valiant since Day One, I think it's definitely one of the strongest breakers we have right now, especially so once the stupid shit gets banned. The ability to abuse Close Combat and Moonblast on one set as well as use excellent Electric and Psychic coverage to nail Toxapex and Corviknight is really good for teams that need to wear down walls for Pokemon its other offensive teammates. I've used a set with CC, Moonblast, Tbolt for Waters and Corv, and Psyshock to nail Clodsire, and although this sets gets really shit on by Ghosts, I pair it with Dragapult to help with that and take advantage of the Mons mixed Valiant can break down. Not broken by any stretch of the word, but undeniably solid.
 
Given all the people clamoring for a Tera Ban due to its seeming randomness and power, I’m wondering if the OU council would consider enacting a Tera Type Clause where every mon must have their Tera type listed on team preview (effectively a gentleman’s agreement to share Tera Types on cart) and possibly also in conjunction with a ban on same type Tera. I feel that the former at least could curb a lot of complaints about randomness because you would already know what Tera the opponent could possibly use (I.e if I see a Flutter with Tera Normal, I know i don’t need to use shadow sneak on it) and the info will no longer be asymmetrical And therefore a lot less swingy. Sure, Tera could still end up being broken, but I think it’s a shame people are already giving up on Tera as a mechanic, especially cause I fee that the depth it adds to team building definitely adds a whole new layer of creativity to team building in a way Dymanax couldn’t that adds competitive skill, so I think a Tera clause could be a cool middle path instead of just banning Tera.
 
I think I’ve built a really cool sun team for the meta game.
https://pokepast.es/048bf936cef9b029
This team includes
Walls: Blissey and Dodonzo
Blissey is the counter to ghost spam, maybe a better move set to let it be less passive would help.
Dodonzo is the physical wall extraordinaire. It’s massive hp stat along with high defense allows it to wall the likes of Palafin Iron Vallient Rising Moon and Chein-pao and unaware makes it 1v1 these threats. Also normal terra allows it to become immune to ghost sweepers like hound stone in a pinch.
Sun setter: Torkoal is a physical wall for meowscada and also the sun setter with rocks and removal.
Sun sweepers: Rising Moon and Scovillian act as the respective sun sweepers. Scovillian really handles the walls of the meta game while also out pacing most fast scarfers. If you need to break a late game clodsire this Mon can handle it with a growth and some prior chip. Rising moon can break teams and late game can terra poison to resist a fighting move or break a fairy.
That’s the team. Hope someone can use this and see how fun it is like I have!
 
Porygon2Bandit said:
I expect Gholdengo Glimmora HO to eventually catch on, as the only reasonable outs to the hazards are Volcarona, Great Tusk, and Torkoal since Gholdengo is technically a very good balloon user on that team. At least until we see the integration of new mons like Landorus-T, its gonna be very difficult to deal with.

Since Torkoal is good into it and faciliates the other HO team I think is really strong (protospam), it probably is anticipating the Flutter ban to deprioritize torkoal's presence a bit.

That said, just run boots lmao
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The Donphan bros are the few things beaten Gholdengo in the hazzard war rn. You need to run knock off. I see many Great Tusk runming Rock + Spin + STAB and they can't touch Balloon Gholdengo.
Also Goldhengo only suffer against spikes. He resist SR, inmune to toxic/tspikes, wow burns, twave para and has recover. He basically block Defog and both Spin
 
Yo, I’ve made a Ceruledge Spikes team. Feedback would be appreciated. https://pokepast.es/0e136704f3535908

Besides that, I am firmly on the “Ban Tera” train. It’s too random and you can lose a seemingly won game since your opponent changed their typing, one of the most fundamental parts of playing…the…game.

Also, now that recovery has 8 PP, would it still be worth a slot on something such as Iron Moth that could also use coverage?
 
One set I've been liking on Cyclizar is:

Cyclizar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Overheat
- Shed Tail

The reasoning behind this set is most people assume that you will be a utility based cyclizar spamming shed tail. So you can catch opponents off guard with you specs boosted draco meteor and overheat. Even with Cyclizar's pitiful 85 Spa, the base power of draco meteor and overheat allows cyclizar to be surprisingly powerful. Against frailer mons like gholdengo, you can get free kills because of the threat of shed tail. And of course, in bad matchups against things that wall you, you can abuse shed tail. I like to use this set on screens HO to nab some unexpected KOs.
 
TPP In the OP, you forgot that also Masquerain can have Sticky Web (from Surskit). However, Masquerain is mainly a Quiver Dance user and setting up harzards is not its main use. But it could surprise you mid-game when it sacrifices itself by to bring a slow sweeper out.
 
ftr i am by no means an expert pokemon player, but i'm getting back into current gen(because I personally was not a fan of gen 8) and wanted to share my thoughts on the metagame rn

On Terastilizing
I think Tera is probably still broken, but not in the way that I initially suspected it would be. I think Tera being able to pick your coverage with Tera blast is mediocre and a budget z-move in many scenarios. Not only is the resulting move actually not that strong but if you're picking a tera type for coverage it may also expose you to defensive weaknesses that can hurt a lot more than they help(e.g. a hypothetical tera-ground volcarona is now vulnerable to ice shard). However, the defensive aspect is actually the most broken aspect of Tera, because you can limit the capacity of your sweeper to be revenge killed. It's not exactly an offensive use of Tera but not one you'd see on defensive pokemon either; it's specifically scenarios where your offensive mon is threatening your opponent bar a certain priority move/fast mon that if you pre-empted you could totally just ignore and continue breaking/cleaning/sweeping. I've only really seen this in any regularity with roaring moon but the fact that any offensive pokemon can and will just cheese you by picking the right tera type is immensely frustrating to me and is probably my least favorite aspect of this mechanic.

I genuinely think we should give the mechanic at least more than a few days, though. I think there are more glaring problems(e.g. Flutter Mane, Booster Energy) that feel even more broken to me right now, and there's definitely some vain hope in me that this mechanic balances itself somehow, even if I'm pretty sure it'll only get worse as it gets optimized over time.

Where are my Ground resists
There are like. no immunities(especially defensive) in this metagame other than Corviknight(maybe Dragonite, Rotoms, Bronzong, but these last two don't feel particularly viable). Teams without Corviknight are imo at least somewhat weak to Great Tusk/Iron Treads/the move Earthquake. Yes, there are viable grass types, like Breloom, Meowscarada, and Wo-Chien, but the former two are frail as shit and the latter is slow and susceptible to the megahorn that the donphans have. Part of the problem is that the existing immunities not named corviknight don't have the typings/aren't bulky enough to function in this metagame but i also generally feel like mons like lando/torn/zap or to a lesser extent buzz/rilla/tang existing in last gen really helped a lot in this regard. This lack of immunities obviously manifest itself in terms of a weakness to spikes and toxic spikes to a lesser extent.

I do like that there are actual spinners not named excadrill now, but one of them is cyclizar which i can't help but feel hatred for

Revenge killing is really important
I think one of the things keeping flutter mane and roaring moon from outright flattening the team I'm running right now is that it packs 3 mons with priority(one of which also has focus sash) and scarf meowscarada. This level of prep is kind of the only counterplay i've developed over time to this really fast-paced metagame. Speed tiers normally deemed fast or at least acceptable(e.g. garchomp base 101, iron treads 106, iron moth 110, even iron valiant's 116) are starting to feel very inadequate when there are about 3-5 incredibly relevant threats that are faster than these speed tiers, let alone speed booster energy or scarf. The fact that scarf meowscarada(base 123???) is even an idea that works(for me, anyway) in any capacity just for outspeeding faster mons and +1 roaring moon/cyclizar is kinda telling of the type of metagame this is, in my opinion.


F for scald, defog, lando, and other forms of defensive play; we miss you :(

I have some more miscellaneous thoughts about individual pokemon that I'll leave off at least for now given that this post is already quite long, but hopefully my points make some sense! I'm still enjoying the insanity of this meta, but definitely appreciate the needed tiering action.
 
I think this gen OU without a doubt has the highest power level of any generation. I messed around with some HO teams on the ladder and here are my thoughts on a few metagame aspects:


Paradox Misdreavus: I should stop beating this dead horse, but I will reiterate what others have stated. This mon 100% needs to go. Fast and strong Ghost-types tend to be extremely difficult to switch into, and to make matters worse, this one even has a secondary STAB in Fairy that affords it near perfect neutral coverage. There is not a single mon in OU that resists both STABs. The teambuilding strain Flutter Mane exerts is enormous, and it is so fast that no scarfer can even touch it after a Protosynthesis boost (OK base 135s tie it and I guess you can use Scarf Dragapult, but why?).

Terastilizing: Before the generation started, I predicted that Tera would probably be broken, since it gives the option of either blowing through a check with super effective coverage or simply brute forcing your way through by doubling down on an existing STAB. What I didn't anticipate was that perhaps the best use of Tera as mathchu2 and others have pointed out, is to change typing to prevent your sweeper from being revenge killed, such as by using Tera-Normal Flutter Mane in the mirror. I agree with previously stated sentiments that we should probably deal with some of the more pressing offenders such as Flutter Mane before re-examining Tera with fresh eyes. I still think Tera will probably be banned in the first month or two of the metagame, but I wouldn't be too unhappy if it got to stay. I think it's an interesting mechanic that isn't so over-the-top as Dynamax. I would be open to a "Tera-type" clause that others have suggested where the Tera-type of a Pokemon is revealed at team preview.

Chien-Pao: This mon is a true demon. SD on top of its statline, STAB combo, and ability (basically a recoilless Life Orb) is a recipe for an engine of destruction. I will say that oftentimes, a game is never truly lost if you still have a healthy Chien-Pao. Chien-Pao is also an excellent abuser of Tera, either by nuking everything with x2 Sucker Punches or Icicle Crashes, or by using Fire/Electric Tera Blast to blow through its few checks. Even priority from the likes of Breloom and Scizor cannot reliably keep it in check, since it has access to faster priority in Sucker Punch or Ice Shard.

Roaring Moon: Tbh I feel Roaring Moon is a bit underwhelming when I tried using it. It's an excellent Tera abuser, to be sure, but setting up in this fast paced meta is very difficult. Since it lacks priority, it also is prone to being revenge killed even after setting up by threats such as Speed boosting Flutter Mane, Scarf Chien-Pao, etc.
 
I think something simpler than showing Tera types at team preview would be only allowing Pokémon to use their default Tera type, but that really only helps HO and significantly harms defensive play, so that’s probably not a good move. Showing Tera types at team preview would definitely help the unpredictability factor a lot and open up new forms of play and counterplay before Turn 1 even starts, which is nice, but it seems a bit complicated to try and implement as a mod. Ultimately, I really don’t know whether to deal with Terastallization, much less how, and we seem to almost universally agree that there are far more pressing matters to worry about right now.

As for the insane level of power creep people keep mentioning, I don’t think the power actually crept that much—it’s just that a whole bunch of OU staples are locked behind Home support, others got Dexited, and all the remaining ones lost Toxic, Scald, Defog, Knock Off, etc. I don’t know what to call this besides “power creep”, but simply calling it “power creep” doesn’t feel right when it’s mainly due to old things being nerfed.
 
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Rain Hyper Offense (pokepast.es)

This is a team I have been experimenting with, and got to the 1300s range. Take that as you will.

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
- U-turn
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- Tera Blast

Palafin @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch

Quaquaval @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Aqua Jet
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb

Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off

Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind

I have done well with this team and have managed to secure some good games with it. The name of the game is hitting as hard as possible after trying to reduce hazards in some form. Flutter Mane is an unholy terror that is very difficult to stop. And I'm not even using a speed based version, as mine is Modest nature and doing insane amounts of damage. Pelipper is criminally underrated because I am adding Choice Specs to it, which it can abuse well due to its sub par stats being complimented by high base power moves. Amoongus is a defensive pivot and does well on my rain team for pretty understandable reasons, especially with Spore. Palafin is fun, but probably busted, and it leaving wouldn't bother me too much as I could just find another rain abuser. Quaquaval is my favorite mon to run and this is the only thing that is NOT immediately broken. Iron Treads is there for spin support and because I get good mileage out of it.

Any feedback for my team is appreciated.

I am in favor of certain things getting banned, like Flutter Mane, Goldhengo or even Shed Tail (which is basically Baton Pass with substitute.) B

That said, I think we should hold on banning Terrastallize because I think that it isn't quite as overpowered as we are making it out to be. It provides some defensive backbone in a gen where the recover nerf is widespread. That said, I'm not against the idea of a clause where you have to announce what Terra types you have, or perhaps a cause where you can are forced to only use a certain terra type.
 
I do think just a ban on Booster Energy to test the waters would be a good idea, having to set up for those boosts instead of getting them for free (and in advantageous situations if you're running acrobatics on Roaring Moon for example) is going to not only let more types of varied teams show up, but also do just a bit to balance out how threatening a lot of these Pokemon are with a free +1 on first switch in.

I also still firmly believe that terastalizing OU should be its own meta, it's just really uncompetitive in a way that feels more like it belongs in the Other Metagames category for people who wanna mess with it instead of the main tier. Not sure how much the tier leaders especially would want to deal with that, but it feels like the only option to really keep things fun for the most amount of people.
 
I want to talk about Cyclizar (oh I just got the pun in its name) and Shed Tail one last time, to just explain to people who are struggling to see what the big deal is.

Cyclizar makes me afraid to run any halfway defensive mon or any mon that is running anything other than at least 3 attacking moves. If you get Cyclizard in versus something defensive, it has the easiest time in the world passing a sub to something that your defensive mon can't break the sub for. Even something with good offensive presence, like the Donphans, can be shit out of luck if you pass to something with immunities to their moves. I had an Amoongus on my team and it was honestly pretty amazing at dealing with stuff like Parafin and Meowscarda with helmet...until they u-turned to Cyclizard. Now I just have to hope whatever they pass to has a sub that can be broken by Foul Play. If not? Welp, time to let their setup sweeper get rolling.

Hard stall can probably find a way around this, but it's the ultimate balance breaker, and can be even amazing against extremely offensive options like weather. It doesn't take a genius to figure out when the weather setter is coming in and double out to Cyclizard. Good luck breaking Dragonite's sub with Torkoal.

Just in general though I want to know what kind of prediction geniuses you all are that you are able to guess exactly the mon Cyclizard will pass to so you can break the sub? Like sure you've put Ice Spinner on Iron Treads specifically so Cyclizard can't pass to Dragonite...but then it instead passed to that fire goldfish. You failed to break the sub and are now staring down one of the most terrifying breakers in the tier that gets to KO you behind a sub.
 
everyone over the course of this weekend
man.png
 
5camp said:
Just in general though I want to know what kind of prediction geniuses you all are that you are able to guess exactly the mon Cyclizard will pass to so you can break the sub? Like sure you've put Ice Spinner on Iron Treads specifically so Cyclizard can't pass to Dragonite...but then it instead passed to that fire goldfish. You failed to break the sub and are now staring down one of the most terrifying breakers in the tier that gets to KO you behind a sub.
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My secret formula against cyclizar is the dreaded Sylveon + Skeledirge Core. They both really don't care about subs and full spdef skeledirge can live even a shadow ball from flutter mane, absolute beast.
I know, it is kinda specific, but it does wonders in this shed-tail metagame.

I think Palafin aka Giga-Ash-Greninja is a far worse problem in the current meta.
Bulky 650 BST, pure water. That is something I want to see gone pronto.
 
If we do end up banning Terrastallize, I suggest that we create another version of the Meta Game where it is allowed so people can experiment with it.

Maybe something like how in Generation V we had DW (Dream World) OU. Something like Terra OU would be pretty fun. I think that seems like a great and easy compromise.
 
has anyone gotten any good results with Bombirdier :bombirdier: yet? I tried to do Tera Rock with Rocky Payload and Stone Edge but it isn't doing enough. Seems like an interesting mon but perhaps not OU material.
 
Patar136 said:
If we do end up banning Terrastallize, I suggest that we create another version of the Meta Game where it is allowed so people can experiment with it.

Maybe something like how in Generation V we had DW (Dream World) OU. Something like Terra OU would be pretty fun. I think that seems like a great and easy compromise.
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Last gen they didnt this bc this gonna split the playerbase
 
Patar136 said:
If we do end up banning Terrastallize, I suggest that we create another version of the Meta Game where it is allowed so people can experiment with it.

Maybe something like how in Generation V we had DW (Dream World) OU. Something like Terra OU would be pretty fun. I think that seems like a great and easy compromise.
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You can play Natdex until it gets banned from there too
 
So this is a HO, based on Stacking Hazards. https://pokepast.es/6900c1861aa3c495

Gholdengo @ Leftovers
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
There’s Gholdengo, the first Pokémon I thought of because of its ability that prevents Defog. I put Substitute to benefit from the Corviknight switch-in to damage the Switch-In, so Chien-Pao cannot come in.

Slither Wing @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Leech Life
- Tera Blast
I have a doubt on this one, it’s basically a pivot that hits strong and forces to switch and take hazards.The Scarf allow it to outspeed Iron Bundle.

Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
So it’s Excadrill.

Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough
This Pokemon is both my spikes setter and my boots knocker.

Flutter Mane @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire
So it’s another Ghost to Anti-Spin.

Tinkaton @ Assault Vest
Ability: Own Tempo
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Fake Out
So it’s my switch in to Flutter and Chien
 
Turtlek said:
So this is a HO, based on Stacking Hazards. https://pokepast.es/6900c1861aa3c495

Gholdengo @ Leftovers
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
There’s Gholdengo, the first Pokémon I thought of because of its ability that prevents Defog. I put Substitute to benefit from the Corviknight switch-in to damage the Switch-In, so Chien-Pao cannot come in.

Slither Wing @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Leech Life
- Tera Blast
I have a doubt on this one, it’s basically a pivot that hits strong and forces to switch and take hazards.The Scarf allow it to outspeed Iron Bundle.

Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
So it’s Excadrill.

Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough
This Pokemon is both my spikes setter and my boots knocker.

Flutter Mane @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire
So it’s another Ghost to Anti-Spin.

Tinkaton @ Assault Vest
Ability: Own Tempo
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Fake Out
So it’s my switch in to Flutter and Chien
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No ground resist when the most common spinner are the Donphan Bros is kinda bad. Good team nonetheless
 
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