Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Wanna throw out a mon that looks like it has been underutilized.
View attachment 466985
Quaquaval @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn
- Close Combat

Moxie is a great ability and Choice Scarf seems like a good item to use on this thing, as it patches the somewhat underwhelming speed stat and has the movepool to hit hard. It even gets U-Turn for pivoting. With rain support, this is a threat worth looking into more.
Yeah matchup bird is very good and fun, even without rain. It needs its counters/checks gone through other pokemon on its team but once they are Quaqauval is a force to be reckoned with. Even more so once and if palafin-h gets banned

My thoughts on the radar mons in a bit once bans arrive.
 
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really have not been understanding the cyclizar and shed tail hype. yes shed tail is conceptually a pretty absurd move, but... it seems like that's where a lot of the discussion starts and ends. cyclizar is just such an awful mon that the strategy never feels worthwhile, especially when you factor in that you're also losing out on running any one of the other utterly insane setup sweepers that will probably put in way more work. while the ghost immunity and fast rapid spin can be nice sometimes, in general cyclizar's redeeming qualities outside of shed tail are just about nonexistent - a lot of the times you are effectively opting into 5v6 for most of the game by loading this mon and trying to fish for shed tail turns. finding a turn to pass a sub successfully is also quite hard because of how bad cyclizar is at forcing switches, and because genuinely everything in this tier is a monster that can break sub without even trying. it's a little easier to do on screens but being solely relegated to screens ho is also a limitation of the strategy - and again, another breaker or setup sweeper in that slot is probably just going to contribute more to the team anyways

that said, if there's any reason behind the occasional success of shed tail strategies, it's 100% because of the abusers and not cyclizar. obviously stuff like flutter mane, tera dnite/roaring moon, bu palafin etc are going to be insane if you can manage to get them behind a sub with screens up, but that doesn't mean shed tail or cyclizar are quickban worthy. ou's modus operandi (not always, but as far as i understand) has historically been to ban abusers before the enablers - futureport slowking + abusers like urshifu-ss last gen may not be a perfect example but it's the one that's coming to mind. tldr please don't quickban this mon and instead get rid of the actually broken things first
Can't agree more about Cyclizar. He's gaaaaarbage and is not gonna end up anywhere near OU. I'm playing stall and leading with some fairly passive mons against it and it's trivial to break the sub. He's just losing like 17% for nothing, perhaps some momentum. Phazing works really well too as soon as you see it and can net you a Booster Energy wasted. I don't think there's any mon in OU that Cyclizar can setup against. Even Blissey is powering through that wimp.

Some teams are being obliterated by Palafin 6-0 but I still think he's not gonna be one of the first ones to go. You get a free turn if they lead Palafin and it doesn't have the moveslots to break through some walls. Slowbro, Amoonguss, Toxapex (and some others to a lesser extent) are full counters to it. I know having some counters in OU is not enough for a pokemon to be "balanced" but I think we'll keep finding more options to deal with it while Palafin will have a hard time adapting to them.
 
Can't agree more about Cyclizar. He's gaaaaarbage and is not gonna end up anywhere near OU. I'm playing stall and leading with some fairly passive mons against it and it's trivial to break the sub. He's just losing like 17% for nothing, perhaps some momentum. Phazing works really well too as soon as you see it and can net you a Booster Energy wasted. I don't think there's any mon in OU that Cyclizar can setup against. Even Blissey is powering through that wimp.
Hope shed tail is what ends up getting banned honestly, because no one would use cyclizar otherwise
 
Hope shed tail is what ends up getting banned honestly, because no one would use cyclizar otherwise
I could actually think of some decent uses for Cyclizar without Shed Tail, it has a VERY wide movepool. Also, Regenerator + that speed + a ghost immunity should not be underestimated.

On another note, the only thing I think should be quick banned is Flutter Mane. That mon is a menace and I feel like we'll find out which of the other sussy-baka Pokemon this gen are actually broken or not once Flutter kicks it
 
I hit top 500 on the ladder last night, so I figured I'd share my thoughts.

Here are the teams I used for context:
team 1 (pokepast.es)
team 2 (pokepast.es)
Feel free to use them, but I'm not a great teambuilder so your mileage may vary.

Palafin and Flutter Mane are the clear top threats in my opinion, but otherwise nothing has seemed too unmanageable.

Flutter Mane has been surprisingly easy to handle, but that's with the AV Iron Tusks set on both teams which can switch into Flutter Mane and KO it before it can KO Iron Tusks, as well as multiple forms of priority as a backup option. I don't think needing to run that many things for one pokemon is healthy for teambuilding, but they are all useful for other pokemon as well. Most special attackers are stopped by AV Iron Tusks (which also hits hard, has knock off, can sweep teams with rapid spin speed boosts, and can maintain momentum with volt switch), and priority is incredibly useful for stopping all the frail fast paradox forms, Chi Yu, and Chien Pao. Booster Energy (in general and on Flutter Mane) has seemed underwhelming so far, but maybe I'm not running into people using it well. If you can force a switch it's a wasted item slot, and I've found being able to switch in and out with and still have the speed with Scarf really nice.

For Palafin, I didn't think the choiced set was particularly hard to deal with, but the bulk up set is absurd. It felt like the only times it didn't win gamse for me were ones where opposing bulk up Palafin got set up first. It's pretty easy to activate hero mode, and extremely easy to Bulk Up. Shed tail isn't needed at all to get the Bulk Up, but it's nice when it happens.

Speaking of Shed Tail, I don't understand the talk of banning it at all. Cyclizar is just not good, it's not really that fast as far as new pokemon go and can't handle priority at all. If it does outspeed, just attacking tends to break the sub right away, at which point it's a just another pivot move but with a huge cost. Dragapult isn't being used that much at the moment with all the new toy syndrome, but infiltrator ignores the sub completely as well, and being the fastest unboosted thing around is great too. Orthworm is better, but shed tail is pretty tough to make use of consistently, since it's going to take a hit and potentially end up below shed tail range. Failing shed tail is a real momentum drain too.

Shed Tail aside, Orthworm has been putting in work defensively. With tera ghost it completely walls the new Donphans, and hits pretty hard with Body Press too. I find it needs another attacking move so ghosts can't come in on it and set up for free though. Everyone expects it to shed tail, so I find just attacking or spiking gets a lot done while they waste time trying to stop Shed Tail.

Breloom is incredible. Mach Punch is obviously great with all the darks running around, and loaded dice bullet seed destroys things that try to switch in on it. I've found Spore is only really helpful against slow walls to get a free switch, since if I predict a switch to take Mach Punch I'd much rather just Bullet Seed. Scizor is worse but being able to take physical hits is nice and Bullet Punching Flutter Mane, Chien Pao and Iron Valiant is great.

Glimmora was great at first, but people are increasingly running things like Corviknight and Clodsire to take hits, which make it kind of a wasted slot. I haven't seen any of those Pokemon have trouble with the recovery move nerf like everyone was expecting pre-release, but I also haven't seen any stall, just bulkier offense. Against teams that can't remove Toxic Spikes it's still great though.

Scarf Chi Yu just kind of obliterates teams, and can take a decent number of moves too. Priority can handle it, but it might be too much of a teambuilding constraint to need so much priority, especially if Palafin gets banned.

Chien Pao seems strong, but not on par with the two big threats. Iron Bundle as well, though tera water Iron Bundle makes it a lot better. Houndstone seems like it comes down to how well the other team can deal with the pokemon that can deal with it before late game, so as people optimize building around it I think it might become too much, but it doesn't seem like it can just get slapped on any team and work. Saving terastalizing until the end of the game for it is also really good, since they probably don't have multiple answers by that point.

Terastalizing is fine right up to the point where offensive threats dodge a check by defensively terastalizing. I think if anything pushes it into banworthy status, it'll be that. That being said, it's currently hard to predict what type people will use. It might be more reasonable when things settle down and people are running more optimized choices you can expect and prepare for. After the first turn they do it you can play around the new type, and just terastalizing for more damage doesn't seem broken.

Meowscarada, Lokix, and Maushold seem terrible. I've run into them a lot and they never really do anything. Especially Meowscarada, which just kind of comes in and dies. Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant seem pretty underwhelming as well, unless they terastalize defensively to no longer fold to priority. Priority is really good in general and a lot of the hyped up new stuff can't handle it. Maybe once psychic terrain comes back some of these threats will be a lot harder to deal with, but that's a ways away.
 
I have found some utility for "fully defensive Terastal". I had a game earlier where my opponent had a mon that had set up, and my Wo-Chien was the only thing that could take a hit from it. I Terastal'd to remove its Grass typing, which removed the weaknesses that came from it being Grass and got rid of its double weakness. This was useful not only for tanking an incoming ice beam, but having a sustained ability to take hits better later in the fight. Compare and contrast most "offensive defensive" Terastal, where it pulls off one defence but is largely not that useful when your opponent knows what to plan around.

That said, there have also been cases where I had to make very questionable choices in case my opponent did a weird Terastal. Flutter Mane mirrors are particularly annoying for this, when I end up using Fairy for a chunk of damage and intentionally saccing mine when ghost would OHKO to guarantee I won't get screwed by a Normal Terastal. (That said, it *is* a mistake I can usually recover from.)
 
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From my cursory games (around 20) this is a hilarious game already.

I don't really have much to say about the obviously overtuned offensive mons but tera is really really silly. Its unhealthy imo because it adds something that you can't reliably play around. Is it really fine to ask a player to account for the ability of their opponent to be 17 different types at any moment? the adaptability boost is whatever but the the fact you can flip counters on a whim is just not very competitive.

Even when fluttermane goes to ubers the next bothersome sweeper will be able to abuse this. Classically most good sweepers just need one or two turns to win games and tera does that easily. and the best part? you don't even NEED to commit anything for it. If your sweeper one doesn't need it, use it on sweeper two. The opportunity cost for such a broken mechanic is just so lacking.

I'm not calling for a ban one way or the other but just what I observed. it makes some matches way more swingy and random than they need to be.
 
I've been experimenting with various different defensive pivots & walls because I am a BO/Balance player by heart.

Here's a core that has done nicely so far:

:sv/dondozo:
Skadi (Dondozo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam / Sleep Talk
- Rest / Yawn / Protect

:sv/amoonguss:
Beanstalk (Amoonguss) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clear Smog
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play / Stun Spore

Its quite insane just how bulky Dondozo is. It's been one of my go-to answers for Flutter Mane because you can beat any non-thunder(bolt) sets 1v1. In general it handles a good deal of special attackers and physical attackers, since it can run mixed bulk due to its massive HP stat. I actually haven't found myself pressing rest often, if at all, so I've opted out of Rest and have been running Heavy Slam + Yawn/Protect instead, since I usually need this to be able to 1v1 Flutter Mane. Give this a go, its good!

Amoonguss complements Dondozo nicely, being able to absorb TSpikes for it which are a real pain in the ass for non-rest sets. It deals handily with grass types (which realistically, is only Breloom), and switches into most electric types too, although Electric types have been really scarce so far. In return, Dondoze deals with Fire & Ice moves.

The mushroom also is great at scouting thanks to regenerator, and Spore + Clear Smog is cool utility.

This core struggles a lot to deal with Iron Bundle (Honestly this thing should be suspected, but thats a different topic) and also in general is a bit passive. It lacks any sort of hazard control as well aside from TSpikes absorbing, so you need to fill in those holes somewhere else in the team. I've been pairing this core with a Scarf Chi-Yu for a good ol' FWG core and it runs pretty smoothly, just tack on some reliable hazard control.
 

dex

Give my perception as a handle of weapon
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Terastilize is uncompetitive and makes the metagame nearly unplayable. This is true for a number of reasons.
  1. It is near impossible to scout for Tera types. This may seem like an obvious point to make, but Terastilization, like Dynamax and unlike Z-moves and Mega Evolution, does not require a certain item and any mon can be the recipient of it. Not only that, but you also have to factor in the 18 different tera types a mon could have. This leads to some really headspinning complications and downright unreadable plays, truly just bad beats. It's also hard to determine which Pokemon is going to tera on a team because so, so many benefit so much from it with little to no difference in their actual moveset. In a lot of cases, Tera Blast isn't even that helpful/run (outside of a few mons like Gyarados, iron thorns, etc.), making preserving your Tera increasingly valuable as time goes on in a match purely to inspire misplays in your opponent because they always, always have to keep in mind that you may just randomly tera and wipe their supposed "check".
  2. Terastilization is overpowered. Again, it is similar to Dynamax this way. For literally no investment of resources, any mon gets access to a third STAB type OR adapatability on a type OR an incredible defensive profile into its supposed "checks". That last part is particularly significant in a metagame that is currently dominated by offense; Terastilization invalidates teambuilding with checking things offensively in mind because of how the mechanic can simply deny revenge killing with quite literally no announcement. Early offenders of this type of abuse are Houndstone and Iron Thorns. Outside of that, there are a ton of mons that benefit massively from its offensive boosts as well; some ones I have noticed to be particularly strong so far are Gyarados, Palafin, and Roaring Moon.
Terastilization is uncompetitive and honestly needs to be first up on the chopping block. It screws with teambuilding so massively that it makes the metagame unfun. I know I for one don't plan on entering any individuals this gen until Tera is gone.
 
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When last gen started Gyarados and Hawlucha were OP because of Dynamax. People try to ban this instead of Dynamax with the reason behind of "they are the most broken user of Dinamax".
I think this reason can be compared rn because mons like Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, Palafin and co are using to the bigger extend. Flutter Mane is going to the chop block, Palafin suffer against bulky water like Dondozo and the Slowtwins and Roaring Moon outside of Acrobatics his STAB moves are lackluster (Outrage lock you, Crunch and Dragon Claw are weak). Rn both Palafin and Roaring Moon get away by Terrastal giving coverage that dont really exist in his movepool otherwise.
#BanTerrastal and some mons gonna be more easilty stopped
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
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On Terastalization (and Roaring Moon)

Terastalization is fun, much more fun than DMax was on first impression, and it certainly has a place. That place, however, would be the Other Metagames section of Smogon. I don't really think a balanced metagame can be developed with this mechanic because of how much variance and unpredictability it adds and how many Pokemon get pushed over the edge specifically because of their ability to Terastalize. One of the mons that is on the radar, Roaring Moon, is probably the best example of this. Without Tera, I would agree with the sentiments some are expressing that it is underwhelming in this meta (although after the broken shit is gone, I'm sure it'd be very good). Though it has massive Attack and Speed stats, DD, and Booster Energy, it has natural issues that prevent it from being over the top. Its STAB moves, for one, are fairly weak unless you run dogshit Outrage. Therefore, it fails to KO most bulky things and even some offensive threats without a decent amount of chip. Moreover, while its natural bulk is solid, its physical bulk in particular is by no means outstanding and a Mach Punch, Ice Shard, or Scizor's Bullet Punch can revenge kill it fairly easily after a bit of chip. In this meta in particular, it has the additional issue of having to choose between boosting its Attack with Booster Energy (which means you get outsped and revenged by speed demons such as Booster Energy Flutter Mane) or its Speed, which leaves it too weak to sweep teams after one DD. All of this would be true, except for the fact that it can Terastalize and solve whichever issue you feel like solving with ease. The set that most glaringly breaks it is, of course, the following one:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 220 Atk / 36 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Acrobatics
- Crunch
- Earthquake

Flying Tera with Acrobatics immediately solves the issue of having to choose between power vs speed, since +1 Acrobatics is a much better STAB to have than Crunch or Dragon Claw and it mauls anything that doesn't resist it with ease. Additionally, Fighting types turn from its best checks into total liabilities against it: Breloom can't hope to KO it with Mach Punch anymore unless it's severely weakened, and bulkier Fighting types like Great Tusk which otherwise can eat any hit and KO in return get annihilated.

This set is far from the only set it can run, though: with Tera Steel, RM can easily break Fairy types which otherwise might hope to check it (not super relevant right now given the pool of Fairy types) and also resists Ice Shard and Bullet Punch. Tera Dark and Dragon allow for it to supercharge one of its STABs while also removing certain prio weaknesses, and Ground also seems like a very viable option that gives it STAB EQ and once again changes up its pool of checks. I'm sure if it stayed in the meta for a while and certain counterplay to it becomes dominant, people might resort to Tera Blast sets to catch said checks off guard, but that's only the icing on the cake. Fact of the matter is that a lot of sweepers really don't need Tera Blast in order to take advantage of Tera, since even switching up your defensive typing can be enough to turn the tides in your favor.

In other words, if you actually want to be reliably prepped for a threat like this, you need to have several checks for it and you still have to accept that you will probably lose a mon if you guess its set wrong. This is an excessive amount of prep needed for one mon, and fact is that there is a boatload of setup sweepers that could become problematic this way as time moves on and the initial waves of brokens are banned. Just a minute ago I had a game where my opponent thought they could stop my SD Scizor in its tracks with a Skeledirge, only for Scizor to transform into a Rock type and 2HKO with Tera Blast while Skeledirge failed to do any significant damage with its Fire move. While I respect that we want to give the new mechanic a bit of time, which I'm sure also just looks better to the outside world than banning it within a week, I'm convinced Tera is totally at odds with what we have come to define as a balanced, competitive metagame. If we do ban things before Tera, I think it would be prudent of the OU council to distinguish between those mons that are banned regardless of Tera (i.e. Flutter Mane doesn't need it to be broken) and those that are banned because Tera pushes them over the edge, so that the later group of mons can be freed in the wake of a Tera ban (and if they still turn out to be broken, they can be banned again, of course).

Flutter Mane

I might as well comment on the other stuff that's on the radar. Flutter Mane is broken. I could go on but it would be like beating a dead horse at this point, the vast majority of people already agree this thing is silly and I can only see it becoming sillier over time.

Houndstone/Last Respects

While I have yet to see this thing do really overwhelming stuff, I really don't see how a Ghost move (already a broken offensive typing) that can reach Explosion levels of power with no real drawbacks can ever be healthy on anything with a somewhat decent Attack stat that gets STAB on it. Houndstone is entirely unremarkable as an OU mon except for the fact that it gets Sand Rush and yet it can easily countersweep teams that lack fairly specific counterplay. If Last Respects can break a mon like this one, I think it's too much. Generally, the idea of a move that rewards you to this extent for letting your mons die doesn't really sound healthy at all, so I'm in favor of banning the move as opposed to the mon.

The Ferret (Chien-Pao)

I don't want him banned yet because he's cute. Sorry, liberals! (In all seriousness, he's probably broken, but I kinda wanna see how it performs in a post-Tera meta.)

Cyclizar/Shed Tail

This hasn't been too overwhelming as of yet, though I think this is bound to become really stupid as time goes on. In this meta, it's hard to keep the Sub up because of how hyperoffensive the meta is; most things you try to Shed Tail in front of have strong moves that can easily break the Sub. In a meta where more passive mons become more common, the setup opportunity becomes pretty great, however. There's also lots of room for innovation to get the maximum out of Shed Tail, for example by pairing Cyclizar with Screens Grimmsnarl. It just enables a ton of dumb setup sweepers too much, the only questions that remain are how long it'll take for people to figure out how to really "break" this strat and if the move itself is broken or just the mon. I'm thinking it's the move though, especially since slower users (like Orthworm) can pass the Sub safely even more easily as long as they come in on something they can wall.

Iron Valiant

At the moment, this thing doesn't really feel broken. The speed tier just isn't good enough (somehow), since even with Booster Energy, there's a handful of fellow Booster Energy users that all handily outspeed and KO you, not to mention all the powerful prio users running around. Moreover, I don't find that it really excels as a sweeper anyway, since you need to pick between Knock and Zen Headbutt for your last slot when running an SD set, meaning you're either walled by Gholdengo or Poison types. I wouldn't ban this yet, though I think once the meta has settled down a bit it could be pretty silly, especially when you start tapping into its mixed offenses a bit more. I'm thinking of a set like this:

Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost/Fighting
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball

While people have been mostly running physically oriented sets, a set like this one is much more immediately threatening due to possessing a superior Fairy move and great special coverage, while still sporting a powerful CC for special walls. I'm sure this isn't the exact set people would run, but I think it gives a decent idea. It doesn't really get walled by much other than Pdef Corivknight which is pretty much nonexistent as of yet.

Palafin

Another case of something that hasn't felt too crazy as of yet but which will most likely end up being busted down the line. Feel like it not being completely stupid is partly due to people still figuring out how to make the most out of it (the BU sets people have been sharing seem like they could be pretty rough to deal with) and partly due to the meta being so hyperoffensive that having to get this thing in, back out, then back in actually isn't too easy. Not high on my list of things that should be banned ASAP yet but feels like a pretty inevitable ban in the future.


As an aside, I also wanted to bring up one of my favorite mons in the new meta, which is Kingambit.

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Dark/Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Atk / 12 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance/Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch

Very easily a top threat in OU once the dust has settled, Kingambit combines a great defensive typing and bulk with some pretty insane damage output. With Black Glasses, its Sucker Punch outdamages CB Scizor's Bullet Punch after only one of your mons has gone down. Once the initial chaos of the generation has passed, I can see it opting more often for bulkier sets with SR and such, as it's probably one of the best defensive Steels that are available to us and you'd probably wanna be able to eat a few Draco Meteors from Dragapult and the like. Currently though, I would run the above set, which handily picks off any would-be sweeper that doesn't resist Dark or has priority of its own and basically necessitates a sturdy Fighting type or a Breloom on every team so you don't get swept by Sucker Punch lategame. The spread is meant to tank one EQ from Adamant +1 Roaring Moon after SR, which you handily OHKO with Low Kick in return (provided it doesn't turn into a Flying type, of course). You don't really have to bother with Speed investment atm because most of the time everything on your opponent's team outspeeds you anyway.
 
IMO there's no point banning booster energy as everyone will just use terrain or weather support. And it's worse too because you can switch in and out without worry AND can use a different item. It's better to just ban the mons themselves.

Seems like everyone is slapping a booster energy for the convenience factor but they are still very much op even if you have to add sun and terrain support.
 
IMO there's no point banning booster energy as everyone will just use terrain or weather support. And it's worse too because you can switch in and out without worry AND can use a different item. It's better to just ban the mons themselves.

Seems like everyone is slapping a booster energy for the convenience factor but they are still very much op even if you have to add sun and terrain support.
At least that's any setup and only on teams with specific pokemon. Booster currently is a free Intrepid Sword for some of the most powerful pokemon already

Anyway, man I hope Tera stays. Its a really really fun mechanic and I hope it turns out to be less of a problem once offense is toned down after bans. That said, I can't really refute any arguments against it.
 
Overlooked mons that I tested and think are neat:


Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off

Really bulky in both sides (Tablets of Ruin helps a lot on tanking physical moves), Knock Off is really useful to remove Boots/Leftovers/Choice Items, Tera Steel sits on Flutter Mane (even if it has Mystical Fire since you're so tanky) and Protect is great against choiced sweepers. Tera Flying and Ground are also good.



Bisharp (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt
- Iron Head
- Low Kick

Eviolite Bisharp is very versatile. It's still a great Sucker Punch user, but now it has some bulk to help it be a defensive check. Tera Fairy also is insane, letting it check Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant and Corviknight (especially if it switches into Defog). The only problem is a lack of recovery.
 
IMO there's no point banning booster energy as everyone will just use terrain or weather support. And it's worse too because you can switch in and out without worry AND can use a different item. It's better to just ban the mons themselves.

Seems like everyone is slapping a booster energy for the convenience factor but they are still very much op even if you have to add sun and terrain support.
It sure seems like running Torkoal is a steeper cost than Boost Energy. Also to my knowledge there is not an electric terrain setting coming?

Like having a dedicated weather team isn't a bad thing, we've seen it with Rain/Sand constantly where Swift Swim/Sand Rush will do more to push speed than the Protosynthesis and its equivalent. Same with Water and Fire STAB being even to the Protosynthesis boosts (admittedly, a bit worse since its a generic boost vs specific Water/Fire boosts).

I think its pretty safe to consider Boost Energy independently of the ability itself. Torkoal is a pretty ample cost to enable the boost.
 
It sure seems like running Torkoal is a steeper cost than Boost Energy. Also to my knowledge there is not an electric terrain setting coming?

Like having a dedicated weather team isn't a bad thing, we've seen it with Rain/Sand constantly where Swift Swim/Sand Rush will do more to push speed than the Protosynthesis and its equivalent. Same with Water and Fire STAB being even to the Protosynthesis boosts (admittedly, a bit worse since its a generic boost vs specific Water/Fire boosts).

I think its pretty safe to consider Boost Energy independently of the ability itself. Torkoal is a pretty ample cost to enable the boost.
The only E terrain setting is the sea urchin right now.
 
IMO there's no point banning booster energy as everyone will just use terrain or weather support. And it's worse too because you can switch in and out without worry AND can use a different item. It's better to just ban the mons themselves.

Seems like everyone is slapping a booster energy for the convenience factor but they are still very much op even if you have to add sun and terrain support.
Not really booster energy allows you to slap the mon on any team, without it itll limit your teambuilding options a good bit. PLUS weather trigger not a perma boost, it wears off in 4 turns (or 7 w/ extender)

Say you want to use great tusk's proto with energy booster banned, youre now forced to use torkoal.

So do you continue to build the rest of your team to take advantage of sun or do you only want it for great tusk? If you just for great tusk then torkoal ends up an almost dead 6th slot that doesnt help the rest, if you build around sun your options will obv be limited

Tl;Dr ban booster
 
Bisharp (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt
- Iron Head
- Low Kick

Eviolite Bisharp is very versatile. It's still a great Sucker Punch user, but now it has some bulk to help it be a defensive check. Tera Fairy also is insane, letting it check Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant and Corviknight (especially if it switches into Defog). The only problem is a lack of recovery.
Evo Bisharp is more or less a meme. You are barely bulkier than Kingambit and lose out on potential lefties for recovery. Kingambit is bulky while also very threatening thanks to its ability. It isn't neutered by knock off the way evo bisharp is, and Kingambit can even run offensive items. Tldr? Just run Kingambit.

On another note rather than type out a spiel on terastilize...

Terastilize is uncompetitive and makes the metagame nearly unplayable. This is true for a number of reasons.
  1. It is near impossible to scout for Tera types. This may seem like an obvious point to make, but Terastilization, like Dynamax and unlike Z-moves and Mega Evolution, does not require a certain item and any mon can be the recipient of it. Not only that, but you also have to factor in the 18 different tera types a mon could have. This leads to some really headspinning complications and downright unreadable plays, truly just bad beats. It's also hard to determine which Pokemon is going to tera on a team because so, so many benefit so much from it with little to no difference in their actual moveset. In a lot of cases, Tera Blast isn't even that helpful/run (outside of a few mons like Gyarados, iron thorns, etc.), making preserving your Tera increasingly valuable as time goes on in a match purely to inspire misplays in your opponent because they always, always have to keep in mind that you may just randomly tera and wipe their supposed "check".
  2. Terastilization is overpowered. Again, it is similar to Dynamax this way. For literally no investment of resources, any mon gets access to a third STAB type OR adapatability on a type OR an incredible defensive profile into its supposed "checks". That last part is particularly significant in a metagame that is currently dominated by offense; Terastilization invalidates teambuilding with checking things offensively in mind because of how the mechanic can simply deny revenge killing with quite literally no announcement. Early offenders of this type of abuse are Houndstone and Iron Thorns. Outside of that, there are a ton of mons that benefit massively from its offensive boosts as well; some ones I have noticed to be particularly strong so far are Gyarados, Palafin, and Roaring Moon.
Terastilization is uncompetitive and honestly needs to be first up on the chopping block. It screws with teambuilding so massively that it makes the metagame unfun. I know I for one don't plan on entering any individuals this gen until Tera is gone.
This post i agree with completely and it just solidly sums up my own feelings on Terastilize.
 
View attachment 466962
Been having a tremendous amount of fun using this Harvest Arboliva set on ladder with Torkoal sun support. With the Protosynthesis users available there's a lot of Sun around, and harvest-cycling Custap Berries to get priority on every move makes up for Arboliva's abysmal speed perfectly. Fire Tera type gives Arboliva a STAB Weather Ball, which in Sun has 100BP + 50% damage bonus. With Arboliva's 125 base SpA hits like a truck. With priority from Custap it outspeeds and I believe it (nearly) OHKO's Flutter Mane depending on its set. Definitely OHKO's after Stealth Rock damage.

Tera Fire into Earth Power is a great response to enemies using Fire types to try and kill Arboliva pre-tera, especially since the sun might bait them into switching to fire types. Fire-Grass-Ground gives enough coverage to hit pretty much everything for at least full damage, and the majority of Pokemon for super effective damage.

If you want to go all in on the sun you can use Solar Beam, but having two sun-dependent moves might be a bit greedy.

Arboliva @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Energy Ball/Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power

View attachment 466963
Another fun one I've been playing around with is Setup Sweeper Espathra with Calm Mind and Speed Boost. Getting a calm mind essentially functions like Quiver Dance because of the Speed Boost bonus, and protecting the second turn triggers it again giving you enough speed to get to almost 500 even without investing in speed (which is why I invested in HP to survive the initial hit). At worst then gives you a 100BP stored power on the following turn with the SpA boost, which already does some work. If you can manage to get yourself into a position to use Calm Mind+Protect again and you're in really fun territory, allowing you another protect and get up to 3x speed and 2x SpA/SpD, giving you a Stored Power that hits for 180 Base Power. Dazzling Gleam is good coverage against ghost types, and Tera Fairy allows you to prevent Sucker Punch from messing up your plans.

Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power
Played some more with the Arboliva set and found out that Custap Berry is apparently not blocked by Psychic Terrain. If you throw Indeedee into the mix then one of the set's biggest weaknesses (getting hit back with prio) is nullified, giving you guaranteed hits.
 
IMO there's no point banning booster energy as everyone will just use terrain or weather support. And it's worse too because you can switch in and out without worry AND can use a different item. It's better to just ban the mons themselves.

Seems like everyone is slapping a booster energy for the convenience factor but they are still very much op even if you have to add sun and terrain support.
Respectfully, I think I disagree on this one. I do agree that if BE gets banned, we’ll likely see a lab increase in terrain/ sun teams, but for a few reasons, I don’t think it’ll equate to being “no different” than with BE.

1) Currently, you can use both protosynthesis and quark drive mons on the same team, and have both abilities be activated upon switch-in with BE. If BE wasn’t a consideration, you could run a dedicated sun team to activate protosynthesis, or a dedicated electric terrain team to activate quark drive, but not really both. At present my super strong proteosynthesis mons (flutter mane, roaring moon, great tusk, etc.) can activate their ability upon switchin just the same as my super strong quark drive mons (iron valiant, iron bundle, iron treads, etc.). In fact, many of these moms pair really well together, and the opportunity to use them easily in tandem is very advantageous. Without BE, you could be using EITHER protosynthesis OR quark drive, but realistically not both. A lot of teams feature both future and past mons, and limiting activation of teams to only one pool may be a bit restricting.

2) Additionally, doing so would require a good amount of support from subpar mons like pincurchin to make work, or a wasting a turn setting up Sunny Day. Of course, this is still usable (and maybe even good!) but there’s a reason why the ladder isn’t overrun by sun/ ET teams right now. In 50+ games, I’ve seen a handful of torkoals, and maybe one or two pincurchins, and both have been pretty underwhelming. However, I’m sure we’ve all been steamrolled by a Flutter Mane or Roaring Moon that gets an instant +1 and wrecks your team - or used that kind of strategy to destroy our opponents.

3) After a BE ban, activation of these abilities would essentially make them akin to “weather” teams. Under the current situation, we have a range of mons that all just get an instant +1 upon switch-in. Yes, you could get this same affect under sun or electric terrain, but that requires much more set up and support than slapping a BE on a mon. Could you imagine if basculin could reap the benefits of rain just from an item? If excadrill came in and immediately got the benefits of sand without needing anything but an item? These mons have been super strong, but the support they need keeps them in check. If there was an item that gave them these instant stat boosts, it may be a different story (though of course I acknowledge a +1 from BE is different than +2 from weather)

I am not even suggesting an EB ban here, I just wanted to say I don’t think it “wouldn’t change anything.” Whether the council ultimately decides to ban the item, or keep it and ban any potentially broken mons that abuse it, I think both are valid solutions - but they would surely lead to different metas.
 
Terastilize is uncompetitive and makes the metagame nearly unplayable. This is true for a number of reasons.
  1. It is near impossible to scout for Tera types. This may seem like an obvious point to make, but Terastilization, like Dynamax and unlike Z-moves and Mega Evolution, does not require a certain item and any mon can be the recipient of it. Not only that, but you also have to factor in the 18 different tera types a mon could have. This leads to some really headspinning complications and downright unreadable plays, truly just bad beats. It's also hard to determine which Pokemon is going to tera on a team because so, so many benefit so much from it with little to no difference in their actual moveset. In a lot of cases, Tera Blast isn't even that helpful/run (outside of a few mons like Gyarados, iron thorns, etc.), making preserving your Tera increasingly valuable as time goes on in a match purely to inspire misplays in your opponent because they always, always have to keep in mind that you may just randomly tera and wipe their supposed "check".
  2. Terastilization is overpowered. Again, it is similar to Dynamax this way. For literally no investment of resources, any mon gets access to a third STAB type OR adapatability on a type OR an incredible defensive profile into its supposed "checks". That last part is particularly significant in a metagame that is currently dominated by offense; Terastilization invalidates teambuilding with checking things offensively in mind because of how the mechanic can simply deny revenge killing with quite literally no announcement. Early offenders of this type of abuse are Houndstone and Iron Thorns. Outside of that, there are a ton of mons that benefit massively from its offensive boosts as well; some ones I have noticed to be particularly strong so far are Gyarados, Palafin, and Roaring Moon.
Terastilization is uncompetitive and honestly needs to be first up on the chopping block. It screws with teambuilding so massively that it makes the metagame unfun. I know I for one don't plan on entering any individuals this gen until Tera is gone.
Even though I have almost no footing here, I’m gonna throw myself at this in a short post since I don’t have time to write a longer one, but I believe that Tera Blast is the broken element of Terastalizing. Tera Blast giving access to a third STAB for free is insane, especially with all the offensive power creep running around. Lets take Palafin for an example. A very strong mon for sure, but it struggles against bulky waters without Tera Electric and Tera Blast. I may expand on this more, but I know other people already wrote good posts on this in the past. I’ll be back, and peace!
 
It’s been said quite frequently that Tera Blast is the main contributor to breaking Tera, but I don’t agree at all. Sure, mons like Palafin and Chi-Yu can use Tera Blast quite well, but many Tera Abusers don’t even want to run Tera Blast at all. Roaring Moon, Chien-Pao, Houndstone, and more have no need for it when their STABs or other coverage options are more than enough, they just want the defensive benefits or super STAB. And that’s not even mentioning how both of the mons I mentioned as blast abusers can also just Tera into their own types for free Adaptability and do very well with it.

Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s any reasonable way to balance Tera without banning it entirely, and I hope others will also come to this conclusion in time. I can say with absolutely certainty, though, that banning Tera Blast will not fix Tera. There are simply too many other things wrong with the mechanic for removing just one to be able to fix it.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Fuck only one Defogger.
Fuck Scald and Recover nerf.
Fuck 3 viable spinners.
Fuck every Ground type having Spikes.
Fuck Good as Gold.
Fuck Terastilizing.
Fuck Flutter Mane.
Fuck Energy Booster.
Fuck Toxic Debris.

FUCK
(I lost to 3 Gholdengo Spike Stacks)
 
Iron Valiant @ Life Orb
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Moonblast
- Agility / Calm Mind

Special Iron Valiant looks like Gardevoir on steroids, it has Grass Knot, Energy Ball, Psychic, Thunderbolt and Psyshock, Agility should be used with a Modest nature and Electric Terrain Support.

At least its 120 base special attack is good for something.
 
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