Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Wenby said:
It's interesting how predictable it gets though. This creature was built for one thing and one thing only: to pass subs. Once in a blue moon, it will knock you off or rapid spin. But its sole purpose is to shed its skin and send it to its teammates for free set ups (icky).
It does strike a unique balance between broken and outright useless. If it faces stall or balance, it can find ways to set up often and pass its subs to others. But it crumbles against hyper offense. Priority and scarf users love to ruin its day, making it dead weight for most of the game.

I do find its use of shed tail stupid though, especially compared to Orthworm. Orthworm's use of shed tail has real drawbacks. You're giving up 50% of your health on a guy with no recovery (outside of ground moves) so that one of your mons can get a free sub to set up. It's slow, so it can't just pass these without thinking. Meanwhile, Cyclizar bypasses all that and just asks you if you wanna play 5v6 while it spams shed tail.

tl;dr: I dunno if Cyclizar is broken, but its design sure is idiotic
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Yeah, i usually find myself just instantly dropping the tail and setting up a sweep, even if I could probably use a more topical move instead
Akiramon (Cyclizar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shed Tail
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Protect
I dont know if its broken, but i do know its stupid and its fun, but somehow not a stupid kind of fun.
 
amberturdz said:
why would you want to Tera ferro anyway, since hidden power is dead.
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Id tera a ferro if I wanted to escape a magnet pull, but that would waste my tera and there's still ways i could be beaten. Strictly defensively tera has it rough, I find.
 
Clank4Prez said:
I just hope they don’t ban Terastal all together.
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Me too honestly. I think it's such an interesting gimmick that adds so much depth to teambuilding and so many options for counterplay that would be gone without it. Personally, I understand what people are saying about it being busted, as it is undeniably an incredibly powerful mechanic, but from what I've seen I don't think it massively benefits some playstyles more than others. It doesn't seem to me like it pushes the meta in an unhealthy direction (at least it hasn't so far) towards something incredibly degenerate or overcentralized. It just seems to add far more complexity into the game, and I don't think that's an inherently bad thing at all. A high skill ceiling is generally considered to be a mostly advantageous trait in a competitive game.
 
genesis monster said:
So i really wanted to talk about maushold since it has swept so many games for me esp with this set

Maushold-Four @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Low Kick
- Tera Blast
- Tidy Up
This set basically can come in tidy up then DESTROY most mons with pop bomb,and it ca use low kick to break most steels,rocks that resist pop bomb and Tera fire helps it kill the mons that pop bomb+low kick doesn't,it helps with certain steels which are neutral to normal+fighting combo and this move also hits ghosts.
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A good answer to it is Rough Skin Garchomp + Rocky Helmet.
 
SinnohEevee said:
Terastalizing can probably be kept for Pokémon with two 4x weaknesses, because except for Lunala, all of them are trash.
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BREAKING: Weavile, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Glimmora, Chien-Pao, Dragonite, Scizor, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Kingambit, Roaring Moon, Slither Wing, and Koraidon simultaneously drop to ZU after community discovers they have 4x weaknesses
 
All right, so I’ve just learned that Revival Blessing can be called by Sleep Talk, which, as we’re all aware, doesn’t deplete the PP of the moves it calls. Some people might not see this as a major issue because its users aren’t that great and Sleep Talk chooses a move randomly, but there are theoretical scenarios in which someone can revive their Pokémon up to 54 times by using Leppa Berry RestTalk with both Rabsca and Pawmot, which should not be even remotely allowed. I understand that the move hasn’t been coded yet but we should really have a discussion about this before someone figures out a way to circumvent EBC with it.
 
Callmeyeshua said:
Ladder above 1500 is so much fun. Nothing but shed tail/gholdengo/screens

is there a core that blows this up? Getting tired of running into it and losing on MU turn one
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Yea I feel that too, infested with shed tail cheese. Pult got infiltrator so it may objectively be the best option, or switching a dark type into grimmsnarl but they can run spirit break.

That was easy to foresee, I don't like cyclizar because it's so mediocre pokemon but it enables such a toxic gameplay dynamic within the tier and it shows. Real shame that it did not get the boot despite how similar to baton pass the implications are.

Our defensive backbones are also at their weakest atm too, so most of the time you'd have to out offense them and it just forces out frustrating situations, but yeah, really not a fan esp when Gholdengo can just come out and block you from defogging screens too.

alephgalactus said:
All right, so I’ve just learned that Revival Blessing can be called by Sleep Talk, which, as we’re all aware, doesn’t deplete the PP of the moves it calls. Some people might not see this as a major issue because its users aren’t that great and Sleep Talk chooses a move randomly, but there are theoretical scenarios in which someone can revive their Pokémon up to 54 times by using Leppa Berry RestTalk with both Rabsca and Pawmot. I understand that the move hasn’t been coded yet but we should really have a discussion about this before someone figures out a way to circumvent EBC with it.
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Yeah i saw that too, I feel we all knew from the start of the implications a move like that would have, and that it most likely doesn't have any business being the tier. But what I'm guessing is that we'll still have an army of people defending it to the bone because it's only tied to Pawmot (i think?) until players eventually find a way to abuse it to the point when it becomes uncompetitive.
 
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Callmeyeshua said:
Ladder above 1500 is so much fun. Nothing but shed tail/gholdengo/screens

is there a core that blows this up? Getting tired of running into it and losing on MU turn one
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Shed Tail: Dragapult, Sylveon, Toxitricity, Roar/Whirlwind, general stall, and offense and Taunt or outspeed Cylizar

Screens: Dragapult, Tauros, Brick Break, Psychic Fangs, general stall, screwing Grimsnarl with Dark types

Gholdengo + Hazard Stack: Taunt to deny hazards, Hatterene, Heavy Duty Boots spam, AV Knock Off Iron Treads, Defog Talonflame, Rapid Spin Torkoal, and… someone hilariously suggested Mold Breaker Defog Hawlucha

Honestly I don’t find Shed Tail and Screens strats as broken now that the first four are banned, who were the best abusers of the strat, and Dragapult is way better and more common now.
 
Outhman said:
Yea I feel that too, infested with shed tail cheese. Pult got infiltrator so it may objectively be the best option, or switching a dark type into grimmsnarl but they can run spirit break.

That was easy to foresee, I don't like cyclizar because it's so mediocre pokemon but it enables such a toxic gameplay dynamic within the tier and it shows. Real shame that it did not get the boot despite how similar to baton pass the implications are.

Our defensive backbones are also at their weakest atm too, so most of the time you'd have to out offense them and it just forces out frustrating situations, but yeah, really not a fan esp when Gholdengo can just come out and block you from defogging screens too.



Yeah i saw that too, I feel we all knew from the start of the implications a move like that would have, and that it most likely doesn't have any business being the tier. But what I'm guessing is that we'll still have an army of people defending it to the bone because it's only tied to Pawmot (i think?) until players eventually find a way to abuse it to the point where it becomes uncompetitive.
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dragapult is a iffy answer. Without band/specs it doesnt have the power to do anything vs the random walls you run into. I guess I can try life orb but the issue is cyc or grimm lead you dont really win. You can just shadow ball either recklessly and all it takes is one turn for shit to spiral out of control basically (the speed boost bird behind a sub is basically gg)

idk it just seems a wee bit too strong but Im open to suggestions to combat it
 
Callmeyeshua said:
Ladder above 1500 is so much fun. Nothing but shed tail/gholdengo/screens

is there a core that blows this up? Getting tired of running into it and losing on MU turn one
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What selection you consistently see at higher ELO will be the most broken Pokémon in the early metagame as well as quick checks for the broken mons. When usage comes out for SV OU, it'll detail what has been abused the most. From my viewpoint it'll probably be Shed Tail Cyclizar and Infiltrator Dragapult, before the ban there was a huge amount of Palafin usage so having a water absorber such as Clodsire will probably be up there as well. The usage stats will be early depiction of the metagame (at it's infancy) even though there has been a lot of evolution the last 10 days in terms of quick bans.
 
alephgalactus said:
All right, so I’ve just learned that Revival Blessing can be called by Sleep Talk, which, as we’re all aware, doesn’t deplete the PP of the moves it calls. Some people might not see this as a major issue because its users aren’t that great and Sleep Talk chooses a move randomly, but there are theoretical scenarios in which someone can revive their Pokémon up to 54 times by using Leppa Berry RestTalk with both Rabsca and Pawmot, which should not be even remotely allowed. I understand that the move hasn’t been coded yet but we should really have a discussion about this before someone figures out a way to circumvent EBC with it.
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I'm confused, what exactly is the issue here?

Like, if you let a pawmot and rabsca use sleep talk 54 times... tf you doing?

The only funny thing with this would be letting Kingambit stack supreme overlord and some memey videos will assuredly come out when that inevitably happens but this has about 0 competitive repercussions whatsoever. As far as I know, you also revive with only 40% hp, no PP restored or anything, so im not exactly sure how anyone would use that in any way to create endless battles.

Besides, it's probably easier to abuse with Copycat if anything assuming it can be called by that too. But that's complete theorymon anyway and not the thread imo
 
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I still believe that the following things need to go, in order of urgency:
  • Shed Tail or Cyclizar
  • Grimmsnarl
  • Dragapult or Terastal
  • Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu
  • Gholdengo, once all the others are gone
  • Revival Blessing, once coded
All of these (besides Revival Blessing, which doesn’t exist yet but will be a big problem when it does) heavily restrict teambuilding and enable extremely braindead strategies. Shed Tail in particular needs a quickban and did since day 1.
 
alephgalactus said:
I still believe that the following things need to go, in order of urgency:
  • Shed Tail or Cyclizar
  • Grimmsnarl
  • Dragapult or Terastal
  • Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu
  • Gholdengo, once all the others are gone
  • Revival Blessing, once coded
All of these (besides Revival Blessing, which doesn’t exist yet but will be a big problem when it does) heavily restrict teambuilding and enable extremely braindead strategies. Shed Tail in particular needs a quickban and did since day 1.
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Agree massively with the top 2, both are unbelievably frustrating to play against, it's even worse when they're combined on the same team.

I don't agree Dragapult is broken though without tera so would like to see tera gone first.
 
alephgalactus said:
BREAKING: Weavile, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Glimmora, Chien-Pao, Dragonite, Scizor, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Gyarados, Kingambit, Roaring Moon, Slither Wing, and Koraidon simultaneously drop to ZU after community discovers they have 4x weaknesses
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These only have ONE 4x weakness, not TWO. I enjoy using Weavile and Garchomp.
 
alephgalactus said:
  • Shed Tail or Cyclizar
  • Grimmsnarl
  • Dragapult or Terastal
  • Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu
  • Gholdengo, once all the others are gone
  • Revival Blessing, once coded
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Grimmsnarl above chi-yu and chien-pao feels off to me. It's annoying but I never found it to be that bad, certainly not one deserving of a quick ban, barely a suspect at most. Arguing about revival blessing when its not coded is kinda goofy, let it show up and then actually cause havoc for a day or two before complaining about it lol.

Dragapult has always felt like just a strong mon, not busted to me too :blobshrug: but that part is just because I personally never found it annoying LOL
 
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