Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[touhoku]

Since voting is taking place soon I'd like to take the opportunity to comment on 2 of the mons on the radar. Hopefully this changes the minds of some of those voting.



Chi-Yu is a strong breaker, no doubt. However, we've seen similar levels of power in OU before at the speed tier, viz (calculating against Arceus due to balanced defenses):

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 373-439 (97.9 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 313-370 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-8 legal, probably legal gen9 once available)
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-7 legal)

so it takes more than raw power to break a pokemon.

People are using Chi-Yu in high ladder and, from what I can tell, people aren't using things like Blissey, Specially Def TTar, or Dashburn to check it (despite what some people might claim). So what are people using to check Chi-yu? I personally didn't have many problems with Chi-yu during my reqs run (although I did spam CB Ttar + physically def Toxapex + TankChomp to be fair), so I wanted to do an analysis of Chi-Yu counterplay in the OU tier. For simplicity, we're going to assume Chi-yu is running the following set:

Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Overheat

Counters:
Note: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

For now, we'll assume the defending pokemon has to switch into Stealth rock, while Chi-yu is at full health and can Terrastialize, while the defending pokemon cannot Terrestialize. Keep in mind the list of counters will often be longer than this because Chi-Yu does not always want to Terra.

Hard Counters: These pokemon can Counter Chi-yu multiple times over the course of the game.

Has Recover to do this over the course of the game, and can even run covert cloak to ensure it doesn't get haxed via Dark Pulse.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 510-602 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Heals up with Rest to ensure Chi-yu can't break it over the course of a game; also sets up Rocks to make sure Chi-yu takes 25% on switch-in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Has Roost to stay healthy over the course of the game, and outspeeds and KOs Chi-yu with EQ if it tries to stay in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Roaring Moon: 249-293 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soft Counters: These pokemon can switch into Chi-yu and win 1v1.

Tank

Takes any hit, even Tera Fire Overheat, and forces Chi-yu out with the threat of EQ, and can even set Rocks to make Chi-yu take 25% on switch-in:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 332-391 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's it! That's all the Chi-Yu counters in the current metagame. Don't worry though, there are more ways to beat a wallbreaker than countering it; wallbreakers would quite frankly be pretty bad if they had a lot of counters because it means they would be getting walled instead of wallbreaking. Instead, wallbreakers quite frequently have a lot of Checks, and this is how most teams handle them. Let's see the list:

Checks:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

Hard Checks: These pokemon can switch into anything but Tera Fire overheat and win 1v1.



- CB can switch into any move other than Tera Fire Overheat and force it out with Banded Aqua Jet.
- AV variants don't get 2hkod by moves not named Tera Fire Overheat, and can KO back with Liquidation or 2HKO with Aqua Jet (or OHKO with SR chip)

CB
TTar easily tanks a hit if Chi-yu doesn't tera and forces it out:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 145-171 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Offensive

- Roaring moon tanks any hit if Chi-yu doesn't Tera, and forces it out with the threat of EQ:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can force Chi-yu out if it doesn't Tera with the threat of EQ, and can set up Rocks to ensure it takes 25% on the next switch.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 407-483 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Soft Checks: These pokemon win against Chi-Yu 1v1 with a free switch, even if Chi-Yu chooses to Tera.

Offensive KO's with EQ.
Multiscale tanks and hit and KOs back with +1 eq, or Earthquake + Espeed.
KO's with Draco Meteor:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 226-267 (90 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
KO's with Wave Crash.
Scarf KO's with Power Gem
Outspeeds and KO's with EQ
Scarf Ditto checks every offensive mon out there
Scarf Rotom KO's with Hydro Pump
Close combat has a chance to KO even if Chi-yu decides to Tera.

Softer Checks: These pokemon force Chi-Yu to Terra to win 1v1.

HJK ko's if Chi-Yu doesn't terra
Scarf Focus Blast KO's if Chi-Yu doesn't tera
Heals back up with Drain Punch if Chi-Yu doesn't tera, and if Tera is availbile can even Tera to halve the damage from Fire STAB.
KO's with Secret Sword if Chi-yu does not Tera.
If Chi-Yu does not Terra, Fighting STAB OHKOs (and OHKO's anyway if Chi-yu has taken Rocks chip)
Takes anything but Tera Fire Overheat and KO's back with EQ
Mach punch KO's if Chi-Yu does not tera.
Close Combat KO's if Chi-yu does not Tera.
Banded First Impression KO's if Chi-Yu does not Tera.

Other Counterplay:

Toxapex: Can Scout moves (other than a predicted Psychic) and switch into the appropiate resist (or switch into something that can take overheat after a -2 drop)
Good Prediction: Predicting between Fire/Dark resists (viz: Cendeluge + Iron Valient) can be enough to beat Chi-yu in a game

Overall, I view Chi-Yu as a mon that punishes the metagame's over centralization around Great Tusk + Recover Gholdenego metagame. Other ground types (Garchomp, Ting-lu, Iron Treads) have a better matchup against Chi-Yu. I've also seen more Scarf Gholdenego in high ladder matches to punish Chi-yu when it attempts to use Gholdenego as a way to get a kill against offense.

In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask stall to run a Blissey to counter Chi-Yu, nor it is too much to ask Balance to run 2+ Hard Checks/Soft Counters (Viz: TankChomp + Azumarill or Roaring Moon + Azumarill or CB Tar + TankChomp or CB Tar + Ting-Lu, or other combinations), or a Hard Check + 2 other Checks (Roaring Moon + Iron Treads + Rotom-W, among other combinations); and offense can easily run multiple (4+) checks--in fact, it's easy enough to build a team full of the checks on this list.

There's also the opportunity cost of running Chi-Yu to consider. I suspect Chi-yu's usage will continue to drop over the month even if it's legal due to competition with Cinderace as an offensive Fire-type; Cinderace's Court Change is super valuable in a hazard centric metagame like this one, and Cinderace has a pivoting move with U-turn to boot. Over time, I suspect people will regard Chi-Yu as just another strong breaker, like Banded Victini or Kyurem-Black, instead of something that needs to be banned.

I'll write up my thoughts on Annaliape later.

Oh, and please ban Chien-Pao.

"similar levels of power" falls a bit short when it's 20% stronger than the things labeled as similar, and while I do agree that Chi-Yu isn't as unbearable as others might say, Chi-Yu isn't only running specs. Scarf, while imo worse, is a fantastic revenge killer, boots np can be a good surprise set to break through unsuspecting stall/fat, and imo specs chi-yu is one of the lowest risk highest reward "random tera users" in that, generally, dark pulse/flamethower/overheat without tera is enough power that you can essentially tech into whatever type you want (notably grass, fairy, or fighting) to break through even the hard counters if they show up without much drawback if they don't.

edit for some numbers:
Victini V-Create (82.1 - 97.1%) is closer to specs typhlosion eruption (72.7 - 85.8%), zard y overheat in sun (82.9 - 97.9%), and adamant band roaring moon outrage (75.8 - 89.7%) than it is to chi-yu overheat (97.9 - 115.2%), and it's not really close

 

[Bugboy]

Y’know the heatran comparison is a little bit interesting. If magma storm was 100% accurate, I do think it would generally be considered uncompetitive. I personally don’t think accuracy should really be a part of the argument though. An uncompetitive effect is still bad for the meta no matter the accuracy. Having an uncompetitive effect tied to a lower accuracy move only introduces unhealthy variance. (Not necessarily saying magma storm is uncompetitive myself, mostly using it to make a point.)

You can go in a similar direction with Weavile vs Chien-pao. Believe it or not, if weavile hits all hits on triple axel, it is stronger than chien-pao (on ice moves exactly).

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 228-270 (64.9 - 76.9%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 211-249 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I mention this because by far one of my least favorite parts of gen 8 OU was the high ceiling teams got by using high variance moves/mons (such as triple axel, magma storm, hurricane). This is one of the biggest flaws in the meta in my opinion and really what ultimately pushed me away (teleport everywhere is the other culprit lol). I just hate that some of the best offensive pressure the meta offered was tied to a move as horrible as triple axel, miserable generation for OU. Really hoping we do not go in that direction again.

 

[RoiDadadou]

Just heard the news
Anybody who voted do not ban on terastalization can have a taste of this knuckle sandwichView attachment 481968

Too bad.
Killer Queen already touched that cheese.

 

[Chameleon]

The comparison is an interesting topic. Though another apt comparison to would be the duo of and .

Pre sleep nerf (and BW sleep ban), the concept of a "Sleep Absorber" was a thing. It was Covert Cloak to the extreme; you'd have a Pokémon running Sleep Talk just to absorb sleep. Covert Cloak has general anti-hax use and takes an item slot, while Sleep Talk was useless if the enemy had no Sleep, had heavy RNG elements, and took a move slot. Even now, Spore is one heck of a move to click if the opponent doesn't have or a Substitute lure.

Cloak seems healthier than Sleep Talk when it comes to countering a specific meta-relevant strategy, but it's also understandable if people are tired of constantly worrying about Garg in the builder. Remember that unlike Lefties, Cloak is an item that doesn't get credit when it saves you, because you never know. An interesting experiment on Showdown would be a message when Cloak successfully blocks an additional effect, visible only to the wielder!

 

[Mikegengsta]

Since voting is taking place soon I'd like to take the opportunity to comment on 2 of the mons on the radar. Hopefully this changes the minds of some of those voting.



Chi-Yu is a strong breaker, no doubt. However, we've seen similar levels of power in OU before at the speed tier, viz (calculating against Arceus due to balanced defenses):

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 373-439 (97.9 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 313-370 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-8 legal, probably legal gen9 once available)
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-7 legal)

so it takes more than raw power to break a pokemon.

People are using Chi-Yu in high ladder and, from what I can tell, people aren't using things like Blissey, Specially Def TTar, or Dashburn to check it (despite what some people might claim). So what are people using to check Chi-yu? I personally didn't have many problems with Chi-yu during my reqs run (although I did spam CB Ttar + physically def Toxapex + TankChomp to be fair), so I wanted to do an analysis of Chi-Yu counterplay in the OU tier. For simplicity, we're going to assume Chi-yu is running the following set:

Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Overheat

Counters:
Note: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

For now, we'll assume the defending pokemon has to switch into Stealth rock, while Chi-yu is at full health and can Terrastialize, while the defending pokemon cannot Terrestialize. Keep in mind the list of counters will often be longer than this because Chi-Yu does not always want to Terra.

Hard Counters: These pokemon can Counter Chi-yu multiple times over the course of the game.

Has Recover to do this over the course of the game, and can even run covert cloak to ensure it doesn't get haxed via Dark Pulse.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 510-602 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Heals up with Rest to ensure Chi-yu can't break it over the course of a game; also sets up Rocks to make sure Chi-yu takes 25% on switch-in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Has Roost to stay healthy over the course of the game, and outspeeds and KOs Chi-yu with EQ if it tries to stay in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Roaring Moon: 249-293 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soft Counters: These pokemon can switch into Chi-yu and win 1v1.

Tank

Takes any hit, even Tera Fire Overheat, and forces Chi-yu out with the threat of EQ, and can even set Rocks to make Chi-yu take 25% on switch-in:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 332-391 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's it! That's all the Chi-Yu counters in the current metagame. Don't worry though, there are more ways to beat a wallbreaker than countering it; wallbreakers would quite frankly be pretty bad if they had a lot of counters because it means they would be getting walled instead of wallbreaking. Instead, wallbreakers quite frequently have a lot of Checks, and this is how most teams handle them. Let's see the list:

Checks:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

Hard Checks: These pokemon can switch into anything but Tera Fire overheat and win 1v1.



- CB can switch into any move other than Tera Fire Overheat and force it out with Banded Aqua Jet.
- AV variants don't get 2hkod by moves not named Tera Fire Overheat, and can KO back with Liquidation or 2HKO with Aqua Jet (or OHKO with SR chip)

CB
TTar easily tanks a hit if Chi-yu doesn't tera and forces it out:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 145-171 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Offensive

- Roaring moon tanks any hit if Chi-yu doesn't Tera, and forces it out with the threat of EQ:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can force Chi-yu out if it doesn't Tera with the threat of EQ, and can set up Rocks to ensure it takes 25% on the next switch.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 407-483 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Soft Checks: These pokemon win against Chi-Yu 1v1 with a free switch, even if Chi-Yu chooses to Tera.

Offensive KO's with EQ.
Multiscale tanks and hit and KOs back with +1 eq, or Earthquake + Espeed.
KO's with Draco Meteor:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 226-267 (90 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
KO's with Wave Crash.
Scarf KO's with Power Gem
Outspeeds and KO's with EQ
Scarf Ditto checks every offensive mon out there
Scarf Rotom KO's with Hydro Pump
Close combat has a chance to KO even if Chi-yu decides to Tera.

Softer Checks: These pokemon force Chi-Yu to Terra to win 1v1.

HJK ko's if Chi-Yu doesn't terra
Scarf Focus Blast KO's if Chi-Yu doesn't tera
Heals back up with Drain Punch if Chi-Yu doesn't tera, and if Tera is availbile can even Tera to halve the damage from Fire STAB.
KO's with Secret Sword if Chi-yu does not Tera.
If Chi-Yu does not Terra, Fighting STAB OHKOs (and OHKO's anyway if Chi-yu has taken Rocks chip)
Takes anything but Tera Fire Overheat and KO's back with EQ
Mach punch KO's if Chi-Yu does not tera.
Close Combat KO's if Chi-yu does not Tera.
Banded First Impression KO's if Chi-Yu does not Tera.

Other Counterplay:

Toxapex: Can Scout moves (other than a predicted Psychic) and switch into the appropiate resist (or switch into something that can take overheat after a -2 drop)
Good Prediction: Predicting between Fire/Dark resists (viz: Cendeluge + Iron Valient) can be enough to beat Chi-yu in a game

Overall, I view Chi-Yu as a mon that punishes the metagame's over centralization around Great Tusk + Recover Gholdenego metagame. Other ground types (Garchomp, Ting-lu, Iron Treads) have a better matchup against Chi-Yu. I've also seen more Scarf Gholdenego in high ladder matches to punish Chi-yu when it attempts to use Gholdenego as a way to get a kill against offense.

In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask stall to run a Blissey to counter Chi-Yu, nor it is too much to ask Balance to run 2+ Hard Checks/Soft Counters (Viz: TankChomp + Azumarill or Roaring Moon + Azumarill or CB Tar + TankChomp or CB Tar + Ting-Lu, or other combinations), or a Hard Check + 2 other Checks (Roaring Moon + Iron Treads + Rotom-W, among other combinations); and offense can easily run multiple (4+) checks--in fact, it's easy enough to build a team full of the checks on this list.

There's also the opportunity cost of running Chi-Yu to consider. I suspect Chi-yu's usage will continue to drop over the month even if it's legal due to competition with Cinderace as an offensive Fire-type; Cinderace's Court Change is super valuable in a hazard centric metagame like this one, and Cinderace has a pivoting move with U-turn to boot. Over time, I suspect people will regard Chi-Yu as just another strong breaker, like Banded Victini or Kyurem-Black, instead of something that needs to be banned.

I'll write up my thoughts on Annaliape later.

Oh, and please ban Chien-Pao.

Defending chi-yu but ban Chien-pao lol. No.

 

[658Greninja]

Since voting is taking place soon I'd like to take the opportunity to comment on 2 of the mons on the radar. Hopefully this changes the minds of some of those voting.



Chi-Yu is a strong breaker, no doubt. However, we've seen similar levels of power in OU before at the speed tier, viz (calculating against Arceus due to balanced defenses):

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 373-439 (97.9 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 313-370 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-8 legal, probably legal gen9 once available)
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-7 legal)

so it takes more than raw power to break a pokemon.

People are using Chi-Yu in high ladder and, from what I can tell, people aren't using things like Blissey, Specially Def TTar, or Dashburn to check it (despite what some people might claim). So what are people using to check Chi-yu? I personally didn't have many problems with Chi-yu during my reqs run (although I did spam CB Ttar + physically def Toxapex + TankChomp to be fair), so I wanted to do an analysis of Chi-Yu counterplay in the OU tier. For simplicity, we're going to assume Chi-yu is running the following set:

Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Overheat

Counters:
Note: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

For now, we'll assume the defending pokemon has to switch into Stealth rock, while Chi-yu is at full health and can Terrastialize, while the defending pokemon cannot Terrestialize. Keep in mind the list of counters will often be longer than this because Chi-Yu does not always want to Terra.

Hard Counters: These pokemon can Counter Chi-yu multiple times over the course of the game.

Has Recover to do this over the course of the game, and can even run covert cloak to ensure it doesn't get haxed via Dark Pulse.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 510-602 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Heals up with Rest to ensure Chi-yu can't break it over the course of a game; also sets up Rocks to make sure Chi-yu takes 25% on switch-in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Has Roost to stay healthy over the course of the game, and outspeeds and KOs Chi-yu with EQ if it tries to stay in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Roaring Moon: 249-293 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soft Counters: These pokemon can switch into Chi-yu and win 1v1.

Tank

Takes any hit, even Tera Fire Overheat, and forces Chi-yu out with the threat of EQ, and can even set Rocks to make Chi-yu take 25% on switch-in:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 332-391 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's it! That's all the Chi-Yu counters in the current metagame. Don't worry though, there are more ways to beat a wallbreaker than countering it; wallbreakers would quite frankly be pretty bad if they had a lot of counters because it means they would be getting walled instead of wallbreaking. Instead, wallbreakers quite frequently have a lot of Checks, and this is how most teams handle them. Let's see the list:

Checks:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

Hard Checks: These pokemon can switch into anything but Tera Fire overheat and win 1v1.



- CB can switch into any move other than Tera Fire Overheat and force it out with Banded Aqua Jet.
- AV variants don't get 2hkod by moves not named Tera Fire Overheat, and can KO back with Liquidation or 2HKO with Aqua Jet (or OHKO with SR chip)

CB
TTar easily tanks a hit if Chi-yu doesn't tera and forces it out:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 145-171 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Offensive

- Roaring moon tanks any hit if Chi-yu doesn't Tera, and forces it out with the threat of EQ:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can force Chi-yu out if it doesn't Tera with the threat of EQ, and can set up Rocks to ensure it takes 25% on the next switch.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 407-483 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Soft Checks: These pokemon win against Chi-Yu 1v1 with a free switch, even if Chi-Yu chooses to Tera.

Offensive KO's with EQ.
Multiscale tanks and hit and KOs back with +1 eq, or Earthquake + Espeed.
KO's with Draco Meteor:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 226-267 (90 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
KO's with Wave Crash.
Scarf KO's with Power Gem
Outspeeds and KO's with EQ
Scarf Ditto checks every offensive mon out there
Scarf Rotom KO's with Hydro Pump
Close combat has a chance to KO even if Chi-yu decides to Tera.

Softer Checks: These pokemon force Chi-Yu to Terra to win 1v1.

HJK ko's if Chi-Yu doesn't terra
Scarf Focus Blast KO's if Chi-Yu doesn't tera
Heals back up with Drain Punch if Chi-Yu doesn't tera, and if Tera is availbile can even Tera to halve the damage from Fire STAB.
KO's with Secret Sword if Chi-yu does not Tera.
If Chi-Yu does not Terra, Fighting STAB OHKOs (and OHKO's anyway if Chi-yu has taken Rocks chip)
Takes anything but Tera Fire Overheat and KO's back with EQ
Mach punch KO's if Chi-Yu does not tera.
Close Combat KO's if Chi-yu does not Tera.
Banded First Impression KO's if Chi-Yu does not Tera.

Other Counterplay:

Toxapex: Can Scout moves (other than a predicted Psychic) and switch into the appropiate resist (or switch into something that can take overheat after a -2 drop)
Good Prediction: Predicting between Fire/Dark resists (viz: Cendeluge + Iron Valient) can be enough to beat Chi-yu in a game

Overall, I view Chi-Yu as a mon that punishes the metagame's over centralization around Great Tusk + Recover Gholdenego metagame. Other ground types (Garchomp, Ting-lu, Iron Treads) have a better matchup against Chi-Yu. I've also seen more Scarf Gholdenego in high ladder matches to punish Chi-yu when it attempts to use Gholdenego as a way to get a kill against offense.

In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask stall to run a Blissey to counter Chi-Yu, nor it is too much to ask Balance to run 2+ Hard Checks/Soft Counters (Viz: TankChomp + Azumarill or Roaring Moon + Azumarill or CB Tar + TankChomp or CB Tar + Ting-Lu, or other combinations), or a Hard Check + 2 other Checks (Roaring Moon + Iron Treads + Rotom-W, among other combinations); and offense can easily run multiple (4+) checks--in fact, it's easy enough to build a team full of the checks on this list.

There's also the opportunity cost of running Chi-Yu to consider. I suspect Chi-yu's usage will continue to drop over the month even if it's legal due to competition with Cinderace as an offensive Fire-type; Cinderace's Court Change is super valuable in a hazard centric metagame like this one, and Cinderace has a pivoting move with U-turn to boot. Over time, I suspect people will regard Chi-Yu as just another strong breaker, like Banded Victini or Kyurem-Black, instead of something that needs to be banned.

I'll write up my thoughts on Annaliape later.

Oh, and please ban Chien-Pao.

No. Victini and Kyu-B aren’t even comparable. Especially when you consider the following.

-V-Create and Outrage have slightly worse drawbacks while boasting 20% less of what Beads of Ruin + Flamethrower is capable of.
-The two examples only have that one nuke whereas Chi-Yu can nuke with its three chosen stab moves.

As for the counters provided,

Blissey is only splashable on stall and is forced to Soft-Boiled when Chi-Yu clicks a move. If you’re gonna be running Covert Cloak, your already in a big disadvantage cause it does not want to afford taking hazard dmg, especially with how sparse hazard control is.

SpD Ttar is ass. It does one thing and its checking Chi-Yu while losing to 99% of the metagame. At least Band Tar can punch some holes with Future Sight support. Whats that? You clicked Rest? Congrats you are a sitting duck for two turns, have fun. This is also without considering the possible Tera Fighting or Grass.

SpD Moon is the best Chi-Yu check given that it lives an Overheat, outspeeds it, and can Roost off the damage. I will give you that. Though Moon doesn’t do much outside of checking that and Ghold.

Also
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 216-255 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is not a counter

Chi-Yu does however have checks, most of them though have their problems.

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 182-214 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Band switches in once and dies the next time it comes in.

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 163-192 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
AV gets 2HKOd if it Tera’s, Aqua Jet also doesn’t OHKO it at full to add salt to an open wound.

Band Tar switches in once and dies, also considering Ttar is in a bad position rn outside of checking Chi-Yu while not even doing a good job at that.

Moon switches in once, clicks EQ, Chi-Yu switches out, now your Moon dies the next time it comes in on the fish. Also this

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 288-339 (82 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ting-Lu is obviously the most splashable check and it is true that teams can slot in Ting + a fire resist (Pex, Washtom, Garg, etc) however this brings up the problem Darkshifu caused in SS OU. Forcing two checks onto a team. While Pex and Clef were good Pokemon, having to slot them on a team or have your team 6-0d by Wicked Blow restricts teambuilding to an unhealthy degree. Not helped by the fact that Pex is the only Regen mon besides Tera Water Slowking/Amoonguss that can pivot into Chi-Yu, and Ting-Lu not having reliable recovery. Matters become more complicated once Chi-Yu slots in Tera Grass and blows past your Ting-Lu anyways or clicks Psychic on a predicted Pex switch in and now it can’t pivot in the next time it comes in.

Most of the soft checks listed either can’t switch into Flame/Overheat or Dpulse. Most of these are moreso rkillers than checks.

As for the Garg/Tran argument, the differences are simple.

-Tran isn’t immune to status, Garg is.
-Magma Storm has 75% acc, Salt Cure is 100% acc.
-Tran doesn’t have reliable recovery, Garg does.
-Tran has common weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, and a 4x Ground weakness. Garg with Tera Fairy only has two. One is an uncommon offensive type besides stuff like Ace Gunk Shot, and Steel which Salt Cure does 1/4 chip damage to, also not having a 4x weakness.

Caso Ceraldo

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

I'm gonna be honest here, I'm a little confused about the point these Garg comparisons are trying to make. I can't say much about heatran in gen 8 as I had stopped playing as much by the time it popped off but from what I'm getting is that it deserved a suspect and the reasons for why it didn't get one were arguably weak. The other comparison with gen 5 sleep is even worse because that ended up getting banned completely.

Like the fact that people feel these are comparable in the first place is kind of concerning imo. Does Garg deserve a quick ban however? No, I don't think many people actually believe it does, me included, especially since we're slated for these massively impactful quickbans literally tomorrow.

On a side note: has anyone tried garg sand? Sounds like a dumpster fire to me but considering how much work Garg can put in I'm curious if people have attempted it.

 

[KamenOH]

On a side note: has anyone tried garg sand? Sounds like a dumpster fire to me but considering how much work Garg can put in I'm curious if people have attempted it.

Not really, but a plus to SpD on an already tanky beast wouldn't hurt in the slightest. Then again, Sun is everywhere, what with a good 7-8 mons getting a free boost in it, and its enough that Torkoal is viable. Torkoal, not to mention the only good Sandsetter is UU.

Unrelated, but, fuck thats nearly tear worthy...


Edit: holy shit banning the thing that wouldve made lando UU before lando is even in. Thats a whole new level of Smogon.

 

[ApertureB]

thinking emoji
View attachment 482020

Aww shucks

 

[1LDK]

i was just wondering do yall run +speed protosynthesis on great tusk? dunno if it's retarded or not i havent followed gen 9 very closely

yes is pretty common on offensive sets, but some others run attack others defense, others like spdef
i run either attack or spedef, it depends on the set and intentions

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Since voting is taking place soon I'd like to take the opportunity to comment on 2 of the mons on the radar. Hopefully this changes the minds of some of those voting.



Chi-Yu is a strong breaker, no doubt. However, we've seen similar levels of power in OU before at the speed tier, viz (calculating against Arceus due to balanced defenses):

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 373-439 (97.9 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 313-370 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-8 legal, probably legal gen9 once available)
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-7 legal)

so it takes more than raw power to break a pokemon.

People are using Chi-Yu in high ladder and, from what I can tell, people aren't using things like Blissey, Specially Def TTar, or Dashburn to check it (despite what some people might claim). So what are people using to check Chi-yu? I personally didn't have many problems with Chi-yu during my reqs run (although I did spam CB Ttar + physically def Toxapex + TankChomp to be fair), so I wanted to do an analysis of Chi-Yu counterplay in the OU tier. For simplicity, we're going to assume Chi-yu is running the following set:

Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Overheat

Counters:
Note: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

For now, we'll assume the defending pokemon has to switch into Stealth rock, while Chi-yu is at full health and can Terrastialize, while the defending pokemon cannot Terrestialize. Keep in mind the list of counters will often be longer than this because Chi-Yu does not always want to Terra.

Hard Counters: These pokemon can Counter Chi-yu multiple times over the course of the game.

Has Recover to do this over the course of the game, and can even run covert cloak to ensure it doesn't get haxed via Dark Pulse.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 510-602 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Heals up with Rest to ensure Chi-yu can't break it over the course of a game; also sets up Rocks to make sure Chi-yu takes 25% on switch-in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Has Roost to stay healthy over the course of the game, and outspeeds and KOs Chi-yu with EQ if it tries to stay in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Roaring Moon: 249-293 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soft Counters: These pokemon can switch into Chi-yu and win 1v1.

Tank

Takes any hit, even Tera Fire Overheat, and forces Chi-yu out with the threat of EQ, and can even set Rocks to make Chi-yu take 25% on switch-in:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 332-391 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's it! That's all the Chi-Yu counters in the current metagame. Don't worry though, there are more ways to beat a wallbreaker than countering it; wallbreakers would quite frankly be pretty bad if they had a lot of counters because it means they would be getting walled instead of wallbreaking. Instead, wallbreakers quite frequently have a lot of Checks, and this is how most teams handle them. Let's see the list:

Checks:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

Hard Checks: These pokemon can switch into anything but Tera Fire overheat and win 1v1.



- CB can switch into any move other than Tera Fire Overheat and force it out with Banded Aqua Jet.
- AV variants don't get 2hkod by moves not named Tera Fire Overheat, and can KO back with Liquidation or 2HKO with Aqua Jet (or OHKO with SR chip)

CB
TTar easily tanks a hit if Chi-yu doesn't tera and forces it out:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 145-171 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Offensive

- Roaring moon tanks any hit if Chi-yu doesn't Tera, and forces it out with the threat of EQ:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can force Chi-yu out if it doesn't Tera with the threat of EQ, and can set up Rocks to ensure it takes 25% on the next switch.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 407-483 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Soft Checks: These pokemon win against Chi-Yu 1v1 with a free switch, even if Chi-Yu chooses to Tera.

Offensive KO's with EQ.
Multiscale tanks and hit and KOs back with +1 eq, or Earthquake + Espeed.
KO's with Draco Meteor:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 226-267 (90 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
KO's with Wave Crash.
Scarf KO's with Power Gem
Outspeeds and KO's with EQ
Scarf Ditto checks every offensive mon out there
Scarf Rotom KO's with Hydro Pump
Close combat has a chance to KO even if Chi-yu decides to Tera.

Softer Checks: These pokemon force Chi-Yu to Terra to win 1v1.

HJK ko's if Chi-Yu doesn't terra
Scarf Focus Blast KO's if Chi-Yu doesn't tera
Heals back up with Drain Punch if Chi-Yu doesn't tera, and if Tera is availbile can even Tera to halve the damage from Fire STAB.
KO's with Secret Sword if Chi-yu does not Tera.
If Chi-Yu does not Terra, Fighting STAB OHKOs (and OHKO's anyway if Chi-yu has taken Rocks chip)
Takes anything but Tera Fire Overheat and KO's back with EQ
Mach punch KO's if Chi-Yu does not tera.
Close Combat KO's if Chi-yu does not Tera.
Banded First Impression KO's if Chi-Yu does not Tera.

Other Counterplay:

Toxapex: Can Scout moves (other than a predicted Psychic) and switch into the appropiate resist (or switch into something that can take overheat after a -2 drop)
Good Prediction: Predicting between Fire/Dark resists (viz: Cendeluge + Iron Valient) can be enough to beat Chi-yu in a game

Overall, I view Chi-Yu as a mon that punishes the metagame's over centralization around Great Tusk + Recover Gholdenego metagame. Other ground types (Garchomp, Ting-lu, Iron Treads) have a better matchup against Chi-Yu. I've also seen more Scarf Gholdenego in high ladder matches to punish Chi-yu when it attempts to use Gholdenego as a way to get a kill against offense.

In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask stall to run a Blissey to counter Chi-Yu, nor it is too much to ask Balance to run 2+ Hard Checks/Soft Counters (Viz: TankChomp + Azumarill or Roaring Moon + Azumarill or CB Tar + TankChomp or CB Tar + Ting-Lu, or other combinations), or a Hard Check + 2 other Checks (Roaring Moon + Iron Treads + Rotom-W, among other combinations); and offense can easily run multiple (4+) checks--in fact, it's easy enough to build a team full of the checks on this list.

There's also the opportunity cost of running Chi-Yu to consider. I suspect Chi-yu's usage will continue to drop over the month even if it's legal due to competition with Cinderace as an offensive Fire-type; Cinderace's Court Change is super valuable in a hazard centric metagame like this one, and Cinderace has a pivoting move with U-turn to boot. Over time, I suspect people will regard Chi-Yu as just another strong breaker, like Banded Victini or Kyurem-Black, instead of something that needs to be banned.

I'll write up my thoughts on Annaliape later.

Oh, and please ban Chien-Pao.

that's a lot of words you wrote. kind of a shame none of them resolve into a valid point. the comparison with victini and kyurem actually works against you because chi-yu has a high chance to ohko the arceus while the other two don't have any chance outside of crits/hazards. so no, we haven't seen "similar levels of power", chi-yu is measurably stronger. its minimum damage roll is more than the maximum damage roll of the other two. also, please don't smogsplain what checks and counters are. you're not the only person here who understands the terms. i could take apart the rest of your post but i won't bother, everyone else already knows you're wrong.

sorry if i'm being rude, but chi-yu is indefensible

 

['RoidRagingMachamp]

yes is pretty common on offensive sets, but some others run attack others defense, others like spdef
i run either attack or spedef, it depends on the set and intentions

thanks, good to know i can be a little more creative :)

 

[Wolf-X]

Since voting is taking place soon I'd like to take the opportunity to comment on 2 of the mons on the radar. Hopefully this changes the minds of some of those voting.



Chi-Yu is a strong breaker, no doubt. However, we've seen similar levels of power in OU before at the speed tier, viz (calculating against Arceus due to balanced defenses):

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 373-439 (97.9 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 313-370 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-8 legal, probably legal gen9 once available)
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (gen 5-7 legal)

so it takes more than raw power to break a pokemon.

People are using Chi-Yu in high ladder and, from what I can tell, people aren't using things like Blissey, Specially Def TTar, or Dashburn to check it (despite what some people might claim). So what are people using to check Chi-yu? I personally didn't have many problems with Chi-yu during my reqs run (although I did spam CB Ttar + physically def Toxapex + TankChomp to be fair), so I wanted to do an analysis of Chi-Yu counterplay in the OU tier. For simplicity, we're going to assume Chi-yu is running the following set:

Chi-Yu @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Overheat

Counters:
Note: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

For now, we'll assume the defending pokemon has to switch into Stealth rock, while Chi-yu is at full health and can Terrastialize, while the defending pokemon cannot Terrestialize. Keep in mind the list of counters will often be longer than this because Chi-Yu does not always want to Terra.

Hard Counters: These pokemon can Counter Chi-yu multiple times over the course of the game.

Has Recover to do this over the course of the game, and can even run covert cloak to ensure it doesn't get haxed via Dark Pulse.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 510-602 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Heals up with Rest to ensure Chi-yu can't break it over the course of a game; also sets up Rocks to make sure Chi-yu takes 25% on switch-in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- not a KO

Specially Defensive Has Roost to stay healthy over the course of the game, and outspeeds and KOs Chi-yu with EQ if it tries to stay in.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Roaring Moon: 249-293 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soft Counters: These pokemon can switch into Chi-yu and win 1v1.

Tank

Takes any hit, even Tera Fire Overheat, and forces Chi-yu out with the threat of EQ, and can even set Rocks to make Chi-yu take 25% on switch-in:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 332-391 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Chi-Yu: 324-384 (129 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And that's it! That's all the Chi-Yu counters in the current metagame. Don't worry though, there are more ways to beat a wallbreaker than countering it; wallbreakers would quite frankly be pretty bad if they had a lot of counters because it means they would be getting walled instead of wallbreaking. Instead, wallbreakers quite frequently have a lot of Checks, and this is how most teams handle them. Let's see the list:

Checks:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. (see: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters). I will keep the list to B ranks and above (so no meme picks like Dashburn).

Hard Checks: These pokemon can switch into anything but Tera Fire overheat and win 1v1.



- CB can switch into any move other than Tera Fire Overheat and force it out with Banded Aqua Jet.
- AV variants don't get 2hkod by moves not named Tera Fire Overheat, and can KO back with Liquidation or 2HKO with Aqua Jet (or OHKO with SR chip)

CB
TTar easily tanks a hit if Chi-yu doesn't tera and forces it out:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 145-171 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Offensive

- Roaring moon tanks any hit if Chi-yu doesn't Tera, and forces it out with the threat of EQ:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Can force Chi-yu out if it doesn't Tera with the threat of EQ, and can set up Rocks to ensure it takes 25% on the next switch.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 407-483 (79.1 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

Soft Checks: These pokemon win against Chi-Yu 1v1 with a free switch, even if Chi-Yu chooses to Tera.

Offensive KO's with EQ.
Multiscale tanks and hit and KOs back with +1 eq, or Earthquake + Espeed.
KO's with Draco Meteor:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 226-267 (90 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
KO's with Wave Crash.
Scarf KO's with Power Gem
Outspeeds and KO's with EQ
Scarf Ditto checks every offensive mon out there
Scarf Rotom KO's with Hydro Pump
Close combat has a chance to KO even if Chi-yu decides to Tera.

Softer Checks: These pokemon force Chi-Yu to Terra to win 1v1.

HJK ko's if Chi-Yu doesn't terra
Scarf Focus Blast KO's if Chi-Yu doesn't tera
Heals back up with Drain Punch if Chi-Yu doesn't tera, and if Tera is availbile can even Tera to halve the damage from Fire STAB.
KO's with Secret Sword if Chi-yu does not Tera.
If Chi-Yu does not Terra, Fighting STAB OHKOs (and OHKO's anyway if Chi-yu has taken Rocks chip)
Takes anything but Tera Fire Overheat and KO's back with EQ
Mach punch KO's if Chi-Yu does not tera.
Close Combat KO's if Chi-yu does not Tera.
Banded First Impression KO's if Chi-Yu does not Tera.

Other Counterplay:

Toxapex: Can Scout moves (other than a predicted Psychic) and switch into the appropiate resist (or switch into something that can take overheat after a -2 drop)
Good Prediction: Predicting between Fire/Dark resists (viz: Cendeluge + Iron Valient) can be enough to beat Chi-yu in a game

Overall, I view Chi-Yu as a mon that punishes the metagame's over centralization around Great Tusk + Recover Gholdenego metagame. Other ground types (Garchomp, Ting-lu, Iron Treads) have a better matchup against Chi-Yu. I've also seen more Scarf Gholdenego in high ladder matches to punish Chi-yu when it attempts to use Gholdenego as a way to get a kill against offense.

In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask stall to run a Blissey to counter Chi-Yu, nor it is too much to ask Balance to run 2+ Hard Checks/Soft Counters (Viz: TankChomp + Azumarill or Roaring Moon + Azumarill or CB Tar + TankChomp or CB Tar + Ting-Lu, or other combinations), or a Hard Check + 2 other Checks (Roaring Moon + Iron Treads + Rotom-W, among other combinations); and offense can easily run multiple (4+) checks--in fact, it's easy enough to build a team full of the checks on this list.

There's also the opportunity cost of running Chi-Yu to consider. I suspect Chi-yu's usage will continue to drop over the month even if it's legal due to competition with Cinderace as an offensive Fire-type; Cinderace's Court Change is super valuable in a hazard centric metagame like this one, and Cinderace has a pivoting move with U-turn to boot. Over time, I suspect people will regard Chi-Yu as just another strong breaker, like Banded Victini or Kyurem-Black, instead of something that needs to be banned.

I'll write up my thoughts on Annaliape later.

Oh, and please ban Chien-Pao.

I feel sooo sorry. Such a great effort for such little meaning. ChiYu is indefensible.

Im sry but why lol.

 

[Mikegengsta]

I feel sooo sorry. Such a great effort for such little meaning. ChiYu is indefensible.

Im sry but why lol.

Crazy he defended the fish to his last finger but no defense for Chien-pao. :/

 

[swampmist1142]

Can someone who is pro-keep-shedtail and pro-ban espathra explain the logic to me? I feel like espathra desperately needs sub support to ever set up enough to kill the dark types in the tier, even accounting for tera…

 

[Mikegengsta]

Can someone who is pro-keep-shedtail and pro-ban espathra explain the logic to me? I feel like espathra desperately needs sub support to ever set up enough to kill the dark types in the tier, even accounting for tera…

People get PTSD and want any and everything that has crushed their confidence banned. Espathra and Dragonite are prob on radar because of cyclizar. Imo ban the goldfish and cyclizar. Suspect ape at least after bans to see where it is and leave Chien-pao alone. The whole logic of chi-yu is Chien-pao and Chien-Pao is Chi-yu is not even close lol

 

[Pokedom10]

Hard Counters: These pokemon can Counter Chi-yu multiple times over the course of the game.

Has Recover to do this over the course of the game, and can even run covert cloak to ensure it doesn't get haxed via Dark Pulse.

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 510-602 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- not a KO

blissey taking minimum 70% from a special attack (even if over the course of two turns) is not a good point. because that's blissey. that's the mon that blanks special attacks. even if you're looking at a 3HKO that blissey is taking chip, and with manuevering you can SO EASILY get it to the point where just one overheat is enough. the calc for one overheat with the same sets is:

252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 340-400 (47.6 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

that's 47.6% MINIMUM to BLISSEY. that is easy numbers to force. even if you just force a recover that's often enough to cause problems! problems more exacerbated by the recover nerf. problems even more exacerbated that you want to go around dark pulse with covert cloak - that's no boots or leftovers to help keep you alive over the course of the game. that's more chip on a valuable defensive mon that we're trying to specifically keep alive *just to try and answer chi-yu*, in a meta with frightening special attackers all over the place (volcarona, espathra, iron moth, gholdengo, etc)

but okay. lets try and go the other way right. blissey is running boots, and you want chi yu to run scarf. for funsies. blissey switches in and takes like 25% (mid roll, no tera) from overheat. alright that's more in line with how the universe works. now you've got a chi-yu with 492 speed running around and lets take a look at what that beats. that's right damn near every relevant mon. so the blissey player goes sh*t. other guy has a chi-yu. they just did 25%. that's pretty scary, right, but they're -2 special attack now. i don't need to recover, and this chi-yu is a problem i need to get rid of if i want to win. okay. you both switch, because they're keeping their blissey alive and you're -2. and later in the game a double switch gets their iron valiant in versus chi-yu. if iron valiant has already used booster energy for speed, or if it's any other item than scarf, it has lost. no pokemon hits 492 without a scarf or booster. with a scarf you need a base 100 or higher. and i'm going down the line and really struggling to find one (good) mon above base 100 that wants a scarf and wants to risk the 1v1 versus chi-yu. the only two i can realistically see are hawlucha with unburden active (not common anymore sadly) and scarf pawmot (who is pretty much only on teams at this point to click revival blessing [WHICH IS A WHOLE OTHER THING.]).

we're back to galarian darm and dracovish meta where yeah you can find a wall that beats scarf. can you beat band? (i know its specs but the aformentioned monsters were band). okay you can outspeed band. can you beat scarf? that's not healthy. and no amount of calcs and speed wars can change that. no amount of dumpster diving and set tweaking can fix it. get rid of the fish. i don't even know why i'm posting this cuz the fish has 16 hours maximum before leaving the tier lol.

 

[Dhrabb]

I'd like to talk about this mon (specifically this set) a little

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Tera Blast

This thing has been putting in crazy work for me. Draco and Dark pulse boosted by nasty plot do bonkers amount of damage to stuff and this also has good bulk for an offensive mon. It also has a speed tier that allows it to outspeed some top dogs of the meta. It threatens Ghold and Tusk, the two most common mons in the tier. You always kill Tusk and at +2 even AV can't take Draco. Hydra also resists both of Chi Yu's STABs so it can take it 1v1 at full health, although it isn't close to a switchin. Tera Poison on this is what I really want to talk about though. You flip all of your weaknesses into resistances (besides dragon and ice, which become neutral). This allows you to shit on valiant (and it is insanely satisfying) like nothing else. It gains only one weakness in psychic which isn't super common. It beats Tusk even harder since now it resists fighting stab. Against bulky mons, it can beat Garg with nasty plot before garg teras, and if it teras into fairy, you kill it with tera blast. You beat skeledirge with dark pulse before tera, with tera blast after. Dondozo hates seeing you especially since it ignores drsco drops and Clod can't take you on if it's water absorb. If it's unaware, it's a sitting duck as it can't poison you if you tera. Ting Lu takes you on pretty nicely but even then it takes like 50 from +2 Draco, so it's forced to whirlwind you out. Even ice and dragon becoming neutral can give you a crucial turn to hit roaring moon or chien pao with a draco meteor. And since it's pretty apparent Chi Yu is leaving soon, I think this is gonna rise quite a bit in usage even though it isn't even near as powerful. STAB Dark pulse is kinda crazy. Try it out, it's hella fun.

 

[P3DS]

Can someone who is pro-keep-shedtail and pro-ban espathra explain the logic to me? I feel like espathra desperately needs sub support to ever set up enough to kill the dark types in the tier, even accounting for tera…

I was going to respond to your prior post, but I guess I'll do it here on my views:

I don't think Shed Tail is the direct cause of the problem with Espartha, and am not 100% sold on shed tail being broken. It's maybe 1 point for Espartha having issues, but I've seen a lot of Grimm screens teams with Espartha and no Shed Tail. Behind the screens, it's similar to being behind shed tail sub. Due to this, the fact that it's counters struggle with it's fairy or fighting coverage, and we are likely seeing chi-yi and Chien-pao (at some point) being banned, I feel that Eapartha's brokenness is not correlated to shed tail being broken, and should be banned on its own merit.

On the other side, shed tail has dropped usage, and I feel that, if a few of the main abusers are banned, it would lighten up a bit. Plus, it's mainly Cyclizar who is the main issue on the shed tail side. Regen, a good support pool and great speed leaves it in a solid spot. However, unlike Orthworm, regen means it can switch and gain HP back, whereas Orthworm needs rest or switching in on a ground move. However, I still think there's some merit to shed tail, and to an extent cyclizar, so, it's why I'm OK seeing it around, but wouldn't mind seeing a suspect after some of the other bans.

 

[Lord Pxperto]

Can someone who is pro-keep-shedtail and pro-ban espathra explain the logic to me? I feel like espathra desperately needs sub support to ever set up enough to kill the dark types in the tier, even accounting for tera…

The problem isnt shed tail itself, is the user of the move that has torn-t utility. I would say even if shed tail is banned cyclizard would be used with AV set, rapid spin, knock off, u turn and 4th move to spam, just like tornadus in past generations

 

[Karxrida]

The problem isnt shed tail itself, is the user of the move that has torn-t utility. I would say even if shed tail is banned cyclizard would be used with AV set, rapid spin, knock off, u turn and 4th move to spam, just like tornadus in past generations

I don't think Cyclizar can emulate Tornadus-T's performance that well with AV. Torn threatened a lot thanks to nice coverage, good mixed offensive stats, and a powerful and spamable STAB in Hurricane. This let it force switches quite easily, making U-Turn and Knock Off spam much easier while also being somewhat threatening damage-wise even if it clicked those. Cyclizar's only remotely strong attack is Draco Meteor, which is decent but also working off a very unimpressive Special Attack and super easily walled. On top of this, Cyc is grounded unlike Torn, so it's potentially having Regenerator negated if it comes in on max stacks Spikes with Stealth Rock.

Could theoretically be decent in lower tiers if we did ban Shed Tail, but I doubt it would leave Cyclizar any place in OU. You'd probably be better off running AV Great Tusk or Iron Threads for the Knock + Spin combo on something bulky.

 

[Lord Pxperto]

I don't think Cyclizar can emulate Tornadus-T's performance that well with AV. Torn threatened a lot thanks to nice coverage, good mixed offensive stats, and a powerful and spamable STAB in Hurricane. This let it force switches quite easily, making U-Turn and Knock Off spam much easier while also being somewhat threatening damage-wise even if it clicked those. Cyclizar's only remotely strong attack is Draco Meteor, which is decent but also working off a very unimpressive Special Attack and super easily walled. On top of this, Cyc is grounded unlike Torn, so it's potentially having Regenerator negated if it comes in on max stacks Spikes with Stealth Rock.

Could theoretically be decent in lower tiers if we did ban Shed Tail, but I doubt it would leave Cyclizar any place in OU. You'd probably be better off running AV Great Tusk or Iron Threads for the Knock + Spin combo on something bulky.

As I said, the problem here isnt shed tail itself, is the pokemon that have the move. Cyclizar has all the tools to abuse it, speed, good utility moves, an ability that helps to abuse it... Orthworm for example isnt good enough to abuse the move more than twice.

 

[Karxrida]

As I said, the problem here isnt shed tail itself, is the pokemon that have the move. Cyclizar has all the tools to abuse it, speed, good utility moves, an ability that helps to abuse it... Orthworm for example isnt good enough to abuse the move more than twice.

No I agree with you there. Cyc can do stuff like Knock Off an incoming Ting-Lu expecting to Whirlwind to remove its Lefties. My response was more about Cyc being a usable AV user, which I vehemently disagree with.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

v.

Heatran goes an entire generation without being banned/suspected despite being overwhelmingly oppressive. A lot of the justification was that “it fills a gap uniquely”. Magma storm is basically salt cure on steroids, since the 100 BP off 135 SpA meant few offensive Pokémon could switch in more than once, and defensive Pokémon were trapped.

meanwhile…

garganacl is literally defensively worse than heatran. Doesn’t blank entire types from OU (heatran could solo almost every fairy/grass/bug/ice/fire/steel Pokémon in OU that didn’t have ground/fight moves, it also beats a lot of psychic, ghost, dragon, flying, electric and dark types + the majority of defensive types ) and.. to top it all off, garganacl often requires a games only opportunity to Tera in order to reach proper effectiveness.

——

keep in mind as the meta fills, we can almost assure that Garg will become less prevalent.

• more competing Tera-appropriate Pokémon means less attractive Tera user
• less immediate utility, doesn’t have the unique resistances and kit to reduce the output of high impact Pokémon (think lele, magearna, Kartana, landorus, tornadus, weather abusers, etc)

Whilst something like heatran will thrive in a diverse, Pokémon filled meta. Because it does something no other Pokémon can do, trap it’s checks, the rest of the trappers get banned!

——

im posting this short quip to encourage some more thoughts about the Garganacl discussion.

honestly I’m shocked that Chien Pao isn’t getting attention when it’s SD / Band sets are substantially better than Weavile last gen and it only needs mild support to be able to destroy teams. It’s surprising to see Garganacl being in the same discussion and even being perceived as more of a problem!

just like there was shed tail for toxapex, now there’s covert cloak for your toxapex too!

I think the reason for Garganacl being more tedious or harder to fight than heatran is the lack of hard counter/answer, better bulk and the fact that tera exist.

Heatran folds to ground moves and also most fighting type moves so it always fears ground type like gastodon or garchomp last gen. Garganacl doesn't have this problem, there are very little that can take out Garganacl in one hit due to it's Groudon-like bulk, and combine that with Tera, it becomes much harder to take out in one hit so you can safely stay in on mons like Kingambit or Gholdengo. And yes, this does mean always using tera on garg but, I don't think this is an issue as Garg is probably the best user of it. So while in theory, it does have a worse defensive typing, it doesn't die as easily and can even last longer than heatran with even better bulk with tera.

You also have to remember Garganacl can recover it's health much easier especially with that protect leftovers set.

And the magma storm vs salt cure comparison I have a problem with but others have discussed it with how accuracy and pp comes into play so I won't address that. But I will add that it's much easier to spread residual damage with salt cure due to immunities like magic guard not existing, and the fact that hazards are far deadlier due to no magic guard and a far smaller list of removals.

Also towards the end of your post, yes when more pokemon releases I can probably guess Garganacl would be worse and less prevalent but that's the future, at the moment Garganacl is quite suffocating, as explained in my original post which I won't repeat.

Oh and I do think there are more broken pokemon than garg like annihilape but I was just trying to highlight a Mon that seem to went under people's radar a bit.

 

[swampmist1142]

As I said, the problem here isnt shed tail itself, is the pokemon that have the move. Cyclizar has all the tools to abuse it, speed, good utility moves, an ability that helps to abuse it... Orthworm for example isnt good enough to abuse the move more than twice.

Im sorry, didnt mean to imply otherwise lol. I said pro-shed-tail but should have said /pro cyclizar.

re:espathra, with the calcs ive seen the dark type counters dont struggle with tera fairy, even with chi-yu gone and screens support. Kingambit, for example, can reliably click iron head and expect to slam tanky espathra enough if it doesnt tera to revenge kill way before gleam kills it (+1 gleam is a 3hko iirc)

Also, screens dont protect espathra from toxic, sleep, ect.