Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
On actual discussion, who do you think are the main beneficiaries of, if not the absence of Chien-Pao itself, the shift in a meta without him (so the Tauros forms leaving, a lot less weight on Dondozo, and lowering the "top" speed benchmark a bit)?
I've been trying spdef Dondozo which should work better once Pao is gone.

Actually I'm not sure why I'm doing that. I guess it deals with Skele better and sort of can switch in on Gholdengo. Probably was most viable while the fish was around.

A more obvious beneficiary is Meowscarada who is at a lot less risk of being revenge killed. Especially Band Meowscarada which I've been having fun using.
 
Meowscarada will possibly become the defacto speed control benchmark, since there’s no koko and there’s a few threats right under Meowscarada (the other protean starters in particular, but also valiant and roaring moon).

there is a chance weavile might see usage as an anti-offense Pokémon and become the de facto speed control. But it will have a very hard time against all the bulky Pokémon introduced this gen. Fortunately it hits hard enough against everything just under its speed tier, and can shard against dragapult.

Currently with CP there isn’t really a benchmark due to its high usage, speed tier and priority options. Unless you assume that jolly CP is the benchmark?

Quaquaval and Azumaril are likely to lose viability, or at least their current most common sets are likely to change substantially.

garchomp becomes significantly more viable, especially its SD set, as there’s one less revenger that can both out speed and OHKO through its bulk.

all other dragons are more viable too, except roaring moon might not get the same pump as the others due to the unaware gang possibly also increasing in usage, and it’s booster set is a high commitment set, when compared to dragonite, garchomp and even dragapult.

speaking of dragapult, that’s one less ghost resist in OU! It can do its specs set even better
 
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On actual discussion, who do you think are the main beneficiaries of, if not the absence of Chien-Pao itself, the shift in a meta without him (so the Tauros forms leaving, a lot less weight on Dondozo, and lowering the "top" speed benchmark a bit)?
Corviknight gets better, Toxapex becomes a little less relied on, Azu gets a little worse, Dragons get one hell of a lot better... There's a lot of things that benefit from panther being gone.
 
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Corviknight gets better, Toxapex becomes a little less relied on, Azu gets a little worse, Dragons get one hell of a lot better... There's a lot of things that benefit from panther being gone.
Also, Dondozo and Garganacl are less obligated to run Teras that resist Dark.

Poison is a nice tera typing that’ll become easier to slot and let them flip the script on Breloom and Meowscarado.
 
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Also, Dondozo and Garganacl are less obligated to run Teras that resist Dark.

Poison is a nice tera typing that’ll become easier to slot and let them flip the script on Breloom and Meowscarado.
I would say Dondozo and Garganacl becoming better when Chienpao is banned is more of a bad thing...

Im pro ban, but Dondozo and Garganacl are already very strong, chienpao ban will make them more oppresive.
 
I would say Dondozo and Garganacl becoming better when Chienpao is banned is more of a bad thing...

Im pro ban, but Dondozo and Garganacl are already very strong, chienpao ban will make them more oppresive.
Thankfully, Greninja is a new threat that matches up fantastically against both, and Arboliva is looking like a solid meta choice even while Cheems is still around to take advantage of it.

Between those two, i'm hopeful the meta can correct. Who knows? Maybe there will be other mons that can come out of Chien-Pao's shadow, as well.
 
Also, Dondozo and Garganacl are less obligated to run Teras that resist Dark.

Poison is a nice tera typing that’ll become easier to slot and let them flip the script on Breloom and Meowscarado.
Everybody gangsta until Tera Poison Garganacl gets shafted to Technician Breloom Bulldoze.
 
Everybody gangsta until Tera Poison Garganacl gets shafted to Technician Breloom Bulldoze.
if low sweep was 60BP like the past, then low sweep + bulldoze + rock tomb + bullet seed 4A would be devastating. It’s unresisted as far as I know.. shame Breloom is both slow and frail.
 

SetsuSetsuna

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With the Chien-Pao suspect test, there is a Pokemon that keeps being mentioned, that I like and have used a lot, yet that I feel very low about.

Belly Drum Azumarill

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power

Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum

- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Liquidation

Azumarill rose to OU last month with the Belly Drum set being the most used one. This set is mostly seen on offensively oriented teams such as this one. Azu was able to check Pokemon such as Quaquaval, Baxcalibur, base Roaring Moon, and most notably 2 of the scariest Pokemon in the tier in Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao. A +6 Liquidation boosted by Tera Water is able to OHKO common switch-ins like Amoonguss and SpDef Toxapex. Likewise +6 Play Rough OHKOs Tera Water Garganacl and Water Absorb Clodsire. Priority Aqua Jet lets it get pass fast Pokemon and OHKOing most of them after Tera Water, Belly Drum and a bit of chip such as Dragapult, Gholdengo, Garchomp, and Iron Valiant. Despite all this solid qualities, Azumarill is nowhere to be seen on SPL and its usage on higher parts of the ladder has decreased a lot. So what happened? I will be talking about Belly Drum Azumarill which mostly runs the set above; it can however run some more speed to get the advantage on speed wars against Kingambit, Skeledirge, Corviknight, and opposing Azumarill.

Tier has changed a lot in the last month. Here are some ways in which said changes have affected Azu:
  • Cinderace was released: Azu can check a low health Cinderace thanks to Aqua Jet. Even a full health one won't want to take an Aqua Jet and lose to Volcarona later. However, it has to be careful of trying to set up in front of Cinderace since a Libero Gunk Shot would OHKO it.
  • Greninja was released: Very recent change. Azu can switch-in once against Specs Greninja's Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam and threaten it out. It a 1 on 1 and just like against Cinderace, it has to be cautious of a potential Protean Gunk Shot.
  • Chi-Yu's ban and Chien-Pao's rise: Chi-Yu ban sucks a lot for Azu, as non Tera Blast Grass gave it a space to set up. While Chien-Pao's rise definetely compensates it a bit, it is definitely much harder to do it. Azu actually does not enjoy switching into Chien-Pao at all. It can do it at most once, with Tera Dark Choice Band Crunch having a chance at 2HKOing Azu even through Sitrus Berry. Even if they don't tera, Azu getting weakened means that it will no longer be able to set up and that Chien-Pao becomes way more threatening.
  • Rotom-Wash's rise: Greatly limits Azu. If it hard switches on Belly Drum then it can Volt Switch and limit Azumarill to at most 1 OHKO and maybe an Aqua Jet. If it hard switches on Play Rough then Azu probably lost a chance to set up. If it comes in after Azu Belly Drumed and OHKO something, then Azu is weakened enough for Volt Switch to KO.
  • PhysDef and Baneful Bunker Toxapex: Last month saw a lot of SpDef and non Baneful Bunker Toxapex. Since then Pex has starting to run both to help teams deal with Chien-Pao. This along with Haze makes Pex a good answer to even +6 Tera Water Azu.
  • Tera Water Great Tusk: Out of all the Tera types rising in usage, this one is probably the most problematic for Azu as it can revenge it rather easily after Azu has taken a bit of damage.
What are some common scenarios that Azu finds itself in?
  • Setting up against Chien-Pao: A full health Azumarill can try to do this. It however has to be worry of Chien-Paos partners like Toxapex and Dondozo. Chien-Pao can choose to stay and Crunch/Icicle Crash. If Azu Belly Drums as this happens, then they can sack something and then revenge Azu with a different partner like Tera Water Tusk, Extreme Speed Dragonite, or Rotom-Wash. If Azu Play Roughs then Chien-Pao will faint but Azu won't get to Belly Drum later on. Worth mentioning that Azu can still get flinched and no neither of the above.
  • Skeledirge being faster: Unaware and Will-O-Wisp mess up with Azu. Running Speed EVs means that you heaviliy cut on bulk and are not even guaranteed to outspeed Skeledirge if they decide to go faster than ~16 Speed EVs and can just straight up not do anything if Skele decides to Tera.
  • Tera Steel Taunt Quaquaval, Tera Grass Volcarona: The former can stop you from setting up in front of it while getting a chance to set up itself, while the latter stops you from sweeping their team and OHKOs you instead. While making the opponent waste their Tera can be considered a win, these Pokemon are far from useless and are likely to tera themselves in plenty of games.
  • Setting up at all: Finding room to set up with Azu is hard since not many Pokemon besides Chien-Pao give it that opportunity. Screens and Shed Tail support can help but right now there are plenty other Pokemon that abuse them better such as Espathra, Roaring Moon and Dragonite. While this support would allow Azu to greatly improve its mu against teams that rely on chipping them + RotomW/Water Tusk/Priority to handle it, it would do nothing for its midly mus against Dondozo, PhysDef Toxapex and Skeledirge.
So whats up with Azumarill?

Overall Azu has a lot of flaws. It can be rather mediocre against Balance and even BO since they tend to carry Dondozo, Toxapex, Skeledirge and Rotom-W a lot. It can however be pretty lethal against more offensive teams such as this one. Its good mu against Chien-Pao, base Great Tusk, Greninja, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Garganacl and Tauros-Paldea is still a valuable trade. I myself used this team with fast Azumarill paired with Breloom on my reqs run. Breloom is able to threaten Toxapex, Dondozo and Rotom-W, and work along Azu to weaken Skeledirge. Though I for sure do not think Belly Drum Azu is very good as is and that it is pretty mediocre to decent as a Chien-Pao answer.

Ty for reading c:
I really like this Pokemon and wish Choice Band could see more use, or maybe seeing it on some SPL game against an opponent that happens to like teams like the one above. I do hope I was able to communicate why I don't like the current state of this set.
 
You won't believe how bad at the game I can be (fr tho, I'm at attempt 3)

Thanks to gren being here and golduck being discovered, peli does not need to run offense again, honestly, I'm mad at gamefreak for taking defog off peli, but still let him keep knock off, wtf man, its a fucking bird you morons
Pelliper is based on a pellican which is pretty close to a seagull and seagulls steal food and in the process they knock other foods off and when they are unsuccessful in their stealing I mean you aren't gonna eat a chip that was in a seagull's beak so it still made you lose your chip. Still more of a stretch than defog but I mean it still makes some sense. Gardevoir on the the other hand...
 
At what point do we pass a warning when the same user keeps doing this stuff?

On actual discussion, who do you think are the main beneficiaries of, if not the absence of Chien-Pao itself, the shift in a meta without him (so the Tauros forms leaving, a lot less weight on Dondozo, and lowering the "top" speed benchmark a bit)?
I can see teams just using Baxcalibur as a Chien-Pao replacement - it hits Dondozo very hard with a choice band and can still force progress with icicle crash flinches if our favourite catfish adapts with a fairy type terastalisation (or earthquake for steel). But there will be significantly less pressure on speed control for teams. The Tauros forms will probably stick around - the water variant seems to be useful against physical attackers with ground type coverage to handle the fire variant even though it lacks will-o-wisp (chilling water perhaps?), and priority in aqua jet for a Pokemon with 110 base ATK is always appreciated.
 
There are ways to deal with it like scizor, and there are pokemon bulky enough to handle its attacks.
See, this is what I mean. You simply want to abuse Pao. Scizor can only revenge kill it as it gets walloped by Tera dark crunch. The only Pokémon that are not completely deleted by Tera dark banded crunches are the Tauros forms.
 
Because nobody asked. Duh.

There are ways to deal with it like scizor, and there are pokemon bulky enough to handle its attacks.
Scizor has no recovery, and Pao can counter it with sucker punch which cleaves it through (tera dark sucker does like 60% min with no boosting item). There also are not enough bulky pokemon that can handle its attacks, considering banded crunch 2HKOs any non Dondozo bulky pokemon neutral to it, and tera dark crunch will 2HKO even Dondozo with rocks).
 
Scizor has no recovery, and Pao can counter it with sucker punch which cleaves it through (tera dark sucker does like 60% min with no boosting item). There also are not enough bulky pokemon that can handle its attacks, considering banded crunch 2HKOs any non Dondozo bulky pokemon neutral to it, and tera dark crunch will 2HKO even Dondozo with rocks).
both toxapex and corviknight can handle its attacks.
garganacle can handle them too.
a body bress on a non-tera chien pao is enough for a OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9anythinggoes-1788839280
also boosting scizor's hp isn't really a bad tactic.
if you are mostly going to use a priority move then do you really need the speed EVs all the much?
also a slow u-turn can come in handy.

but to be fair the scizor works only on non-tera pao.
 
For you, which Pokémon are likely to fall in UU, and which will go up in OU? If Greninja doesn't have the uses for the OU, will he still stay because of his late drop?
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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both toxapex and corviknight can handle its attacks.
garganacle can handle them too.
a body bress on a non-tera chien pao is enough for a OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9anythinggoes-1788839280
also boosting scizor's hp isn't really a bad tactic.
if you are mostly going to use a priority move then do you really need the speed EVs all the much?
also a slow u-turn can come in handy.

but to be fair the scizor works only on non-tera pao.
I am really sorry but this is such a terrible way to show how "corv, scizor, pex and garg" can handle them, you just showed why they CANT handle them in a real game.

You showed a tera dark sucker punch able to ohko scizor with max hp after a round of rocks and it living a banded scizor bullet punch. how is that not broken? and the way you kill it is by.... the chien pao staying in on pex with sucker punch.

Physdef pex gets 2 shot by tera dark crunch and throat chop from just life orb, hell even black glasses has a chance to 2hko with the right roll. same with both garg and corv. and this is BEFORE hazard or chip damage with in gen 9 is very easy to come by.

You just showed us WHY it is broken, the fact it can 2hko all of its checks unless they tera too, invalidate priority with its own insanely strong one, and can even tech some underused move like psychic fangs for pex and tauros.

252 Atk Black Glasses Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 184-218 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 200-237 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 153-182 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Black Glasses Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garganacl: 192-229 (47.5 - 56.6%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 288-340 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I hate stall as much as the next guy (hell in gen 8 i even made a team specifically to beat stall in the most humiliating way, not just effective) and pao does destroy stall very easily, but it also constrain the tier pretty hard which also makes certain offense mons worse, and if you put banded chien pao in a fat balance with good hazard control (which a lot of people do, and is a stupidly easy team style to use) it makes heavy offense that just wants to punch through everything hard to build/use because not only do you need to break some stupidly bulky walls, you also have to account for this super strong, fast priority user too. If anything, in a weird twisted way chien-pao helps stall by enabling these easy to use fat-balance team that destroys offense.

Stall in this gen is not that hard to beat even without pao, and with pao gone there will be much better stall breaker options available.
 
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Chien Pao arguably helps Stall more than it harms it, since it's much better at destroying frail offensive Mons slower than it. Meanwhile Stall will be putting bulky water + fairy + steel cores, which will disallow progress for the cat. Or even better, a Water Tauros to fully nullify every Standard set (not Tera Ghost SD or Tera electric though).

Last Gen many people wanted Weavile gone for it's ability to destroy offense like Chien Pao does. Weavile however was very far from broken, since both defensive teams and weather teams had very good counter play, the weasel only threatened standard lazy building, those deserved to lose due to not wanting to adapt to it. Chien Pao can be adapted for too, but it still threatens every style due to the big offensive movepool (that includes priority moves to deal with the few Mons faster than it) and multiple Tera options to adapt for every single check. It's far from being the most broken thing that populated OU (this Gen or other Gens), it's even not as broken as some things that stayed in OU in other Gens, but it's still broken and deserves to be banned.
 

Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
whatever, it should still stay legal since it helps break stall teams.
if it gets banned then stall teams will get buffed and it is not like smogon would even consider banning any of their pokemon because dEy AiNt cUzIn EnI pRoBlUmS.
Smogon’s been considering banning Garganacl for a while now, calm down. It’s probably next in line for a suspect after Chien-Pao gets the boot.

And yes like Eeveeto said Chien-Pao punishes offense more than it does stall. Stall at least has tools like Garganacl with Tera that can sort of stand up to it.
 
both toxapex and corviknight can handle its attacks.
garganacle can handle them too.
a body bress on a non-tera chien pao is enough for a OHKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9anythinggoes-1788839280
also boosting scizor's hp isn't really a bad tactic.
if you are mostly going to use a priority move then do you really need the speed EVs all the much?
also a slow u-turn can come in handy.

but to be fair the scizor works only on non-tera pao.
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 201-237 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Garganacl: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are pokemon that switch into it, supposed to defensively check it by withstanding its hits to chase it out. Being 2HKOd... They can't do that. And Mimikyu solidly covered the replay.

whatever, it should still stay legal since it helps break stall teams.
if it gets banned then stall teams will get buffed and it is not like smogon would even consider banning any of their pokemon because dEy AiNt cUzIn EnI pRoBlUmS.
Your argument was refuted so you default to a stereotypical stall bad attitude and effectively stomp your feet? There is exactly one defensive pokemon that is close to broken/problematic, and it was on the survey. And people are keeping an eye on it. So kindly stop the stall fearmongering.
 
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