Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[awyp]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1837781813-f7ds0xm3epo0ux5f7k1u04yvxpxx5vzpw
Hydreigon is the best Sub abuser of the gen.

Yeah I agree, especially to the fact when you see a Rotom-W / Clodsire you just auto-sub and start setting up Nasty Plots. I think the rise of Hydrei makes Rotom-W use drop the last month.

 

[Schpoonman]

Tbh, switching an AV Ursaluna in on a Will o Wisp seems like it would be well worth the risk of "only" having 140 attack some of the time

this isn't some mon that needs guts to kick ass; AV gives it 130/105/120 bulk and 140 ATK is already as high as stuff like Baxcalibur (who often uses Loaded Dice) or Roaring Moon (which has sets that don't give it an attack boost from its item at all!)

Items like Assault Vest, Eviolite, and Choice wear don't boost base stats. They multiply the current relevant stat (after stat boosts, also) by 1.5.

@ Life Orb
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Stone Axe
- X-Scissor
- Close Combat
- Agility

I'm an idiot that likes Agility sweepers. 29 HP EVs gives you a Life Orb number (I think. Are Life Orb numbers still a thing or should I just be running Boots?), Stone Axe sets up your own hazards, X-Scissor and Close Combat give you big damage. EVs let you outspeed Scarf 110s after an Agility.

This is the part of the post where I remembered Terastallization is a thing at this point in the gen, and so I've switched to Fighting. I've always sucked at teambuilding, someone else can probably make this better. Maybe a Scarf set, it's practically Heracross but with U-turn.

 

[1LDK]

Alright people, quick question

what is the weirdest set you have tried?
I think I have some gold on AV Roaring Moon, I need to work around it tommorrow tho

 

[awyp]

Alright people, quick question

what is the weirdest set you have tried?
I think I have some gold on AV Roaring Moon, I need to work around it tommorrow tho

Dropping 252 Speed EVs on something that has base 50 Speed to reach an outstanding 199 Speed for pure competitive performance and to elect to go for Low Kick > Iron Head so you get completely walled by every fairy in the tier. Thank me later.


Kingambit @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch

 

[Mega Breloom]

Alright people, quick question

what is the weirdest set you have tried?
I think I have some gold on AV Roaring Moon, I need to work around it tommorrow tho

Band Tinkaton, don't use that it's super bad.

 

[Ranga226]

What are the speed spreads Kingambit likes to run and what do they outspeed? Or is it just a Kingambit vs kingambit speed creep war

 

[Lectrys]

For you, Samurott-H will be used with which object?

Choice Band to maximize Ceaseless Edge damage? Choice Scarf to be sure to put Spikes and be faster than Gholdengo Scarf? Or Focus Sash?

Late to this party now but I should be using Choice Band to maximize the chance of OHKOing Scarf Gholdengo with Sucker Punch:

252 Atk Choice Band Samurott-Hisui Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 314-372 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

But I actually run Expert Belt so I can switch moves and I still get the guaranteed OHKO on offensive Heatran:

252 Atk Expert Belt Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 367-434 (113.6 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 306-362 (94.7 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO)

Yeah, I'm a fan of Razor Shell so I can break opposing defences more easily and maybe dent Unaware mons harder. Ceaseless Edge already misses often enough, anyway.

On another note, at least in the limited post-HOME OU tours I've participated in and watched in Showdown's Tours Plaza room, Enamorus isn't broken (yet), Bulletproof Ursaluna actually works, and pre-HOME teams easily win and have won tournaments(!!!).

 

[awyp]

What are the speed spreads Kingambit likes to run and what do they outspeed? Or is it just a Kingambit vs kingambit speed creep war

Depends but based on the Hyper Offense spam it's any where between 252 HP / 252 Att to 252 Att / 252 Speed (Adamant nature for both), ideally I've been seeing a lot of Gambits with at least 180 speed (176 EVs) 252 Attack and rest in HP (80 EVs).

 

[kingmickey27]

Yeah I agree, especially to the fact when you see a Rotom-W / Clodsire you just auto-sub and start setting up Nasty Plots. I think the rise of Hydrei makes Rotom-W use drop the last month.

I think this is accurate. It's not just Hydreigon also. Substitute Dragons (Baxcalibur/Dragapult/Roaring Moon - I've used Haxorus too) in general kind of see Rotom-W as set-up bait that's easy to take advantage of during team preview. Looking around, I've seen mons use Tera to find new ways to shit on Rotom-W, such as Volcarona, Ceruledge, or this Tera Ground SubBD Azumarill set by Storm Zone. With all that + its lack of longevity, it makes sense as to why Rotom-W has taken a hit.

What are the speed spreads Kingambit likes to run and what do they outspeed? Or is it just a Kingambit vs kingambit speed creep war

Based on this: Speed Tiers Resource, the Speed creep war revolves around

• Kingambit, Neutral 144 Spe: The standard spread aims to outpace min Speed Corviknight, as well as the Iron Hands, Azumarill, Scizor, Skeledirge and Brute Bonnet spreads that EV up with the same idea in mind. Those Pokemon are always trying to one up each other at the cost of HP investment.

The other key Speed benchmark would be:

• Kingambit, Neutral 252 Spe (neutral max invested base 50 speed tier): This spread pops up occasionally. Azumarill and Iron Hands also share this speed tier. For this reason, mons that can afford to invest in speed to outpace them (Scizor, Skeledirge) may opt to do so. (Scizor would be able to Bullet Punch before Kingambit can Sucker Punch while Skeledirge burn it with Wisp before Kingambit attacks)

Rarer Scenario:

• I think I've heard something about Kingambit going Jolly max speed sometimes, though this is probably rare. That said, it wouldn't hurt to EV up your Great Tusks and Rotom-W so that they are guaranteed to outpace the positive max invested base 50 speed tier.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Speed

​

This current metagame is heavily centered around hyper offense and offensive builds/pokemon. In this current metagame, the best playstyle is hyper offense/offense. I wanna lay out some of the reasons for the offensive takeover in this current metagame. Why even, with the introduction of unaware monsters Dondozo, Skeldirge, and impossible-to-ohko mons like Ting Lu or Tera'd Garg, offensive builds are still in the driver's seat.


Lack Of Removal/Influx Of Hazards is a good place to start. We currently have 15 hazard setters in the OU tier (some can even set multiple hazards). We currently have 7 ways of hazard control that are mostly relativity flimsy. There is also the aspect of 5 ghost types in OU to prevent the most consistent form of removal currently rapid spin, not including the viable option of tera ghosting pokemon such as Ting-Lu & Great Tusk to spin block. There is also the aspect of Gholdengo, more so its ability Good As Gold that prevents Pokemon like Corviknight from removing hazards. Now, all these elements help Hyper Offense/Offensive builds as they can generally easily set their hazards and apply pressure to their opponent with those hazards on the field. You can see some of these builds easily add something like balloon Gholdengo which can make it relatively easy to prevent great tusk from removing hazards from the field while not losing offensive momentum and also prevent Corviknight from removing in just one slot. Due to this influx of hazards being used to pressure bulkier teams into submission, there has been a rise in hazardless balances that utilize Cinderace and its signature move court change to reverse the tide.

Hazardless Balance Example

https://pokepast.es/599b76acc0f1d16c
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1826777159-ucazzbxcphlm3gez0j0bsjfmvvbnruhpw [Giannis (using the balance) vs Jamvad]

Energy Booster is an amazing item. It has little to no drawback as most of the sweepers that utilize the item goal is win as soon as they come in. This item is used by the most prominent threats in the tier. A lot of the popular HO/Hyper Offensive playstyles will have at least one energy boost user on the team, some may even have 3. Energy Booster is able to give Pokemon like Roaring Moon the extra attack boost it needs to straight 6-0 your team. It gives Iron Valiant the speed boost needed to essentially outspeed almost every viable speed control option in the tier. It allows Iron Moth to potentially Agility with a SPA boost or simply go ham after getting one fiery dance rise with a speed boost. The energy booster dominance over the metagame has led to items like red card having increased usage to counteract this. Energy Booster gives offensive builds the ability to counteract fast threats & bulky monsters.

There are currently too many threats/archetypes to account for in the metagame in my opinion. It currently isn't possible to prep for every viable sweeper, bulky Pokemon, archetype, & weather. Due to this, I feel it's completely reasonable to find yourself leaning toward an offensive build as you can viably build a hyper-offensive team that can handle every single popular team style primarily except stall. You also have the ability to utilize tera to get past some Pokemon you'd otherwise be checked by and furthermore can use tera to potentially check a threat that may overwhelm your team. Now, your opponent also has tera and can arguably do the same, I personally feel with the offensive archetype you can place yourself in a position to force your opponent to tera to handle a threat of yours which can lead to them being overwhelmed by another threat you possess. Being able to force your opponent to tera is one of the most valuable elements of this generation and you have to keep in mind what Pokemon will most likely force you to tera in this metagame.

Tera is one of the elements that is easy to abuse and there are a lot of abusers in this metagame. Most of the current OU Pokemon are able to take advantage and abuse this heavily offensive metagame. You also have to realize that there are so many different types of viable offensive archetypes:

Shed Tail Offense
Psychic Terrain Offense
Hazard Lead/Hazard Stack Offense
Hattrene/Cind Hazard Control Offense
Eject Pack Offense
Energy Booster Offense

Shed Tail Offense

Shed Tail allows Pokemon that already benefit from energy boosts or abilities like supreme overload to take it a step further. We've seen countless games decided by a Pokemon being under substitute due to shed tail and the banning of Cyclizar did not stop its havoc.

Shed Tail Tour Moments

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-680084
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-680187
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-681797

Psychic Terrain Offense

Psychic Terrain Offense rise was mainly due to players like mind gaming & Pinecoishot and even though it hasn't actively been causing havoc like it was during its peak doesn't mean it's something that you can't account for when building. Indeedee and Hatterene the pillars of the playstyle allow you to set an 8-turn lasting terrain not allowing you to revenge the many threats you may face, along with Hatterene preventing hazards from generally being unable to be laid.

Psychic Terrain Tour Moments

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-669590
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-678622
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-677571

Hazard Lead/Hazard Stack Offense

This type of offense is definitely the oldest form of an offense listed. It is still as reliable as ever, it may not be as effective with heavy-duty boots so prevalent but it still gets the job done and aids whichever Pokemon you choose to pair with hazard setters.

Hazard Lead/Hazard Stack Offense Tour Moments

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-673794
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-677415
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-675342

Hattrene/Cind Hazard Control Offense

This type of offense goal is to keep hazards off so a Pokemon that would be weak to hazards is able to still be effective without that worry. Hattrene does this very well with its ability magic bounce and Cinderace being able to send hazards to the opposing side with Court Change makes it plausible to keep hazards off with its presence as well.

Hattrene/Cind Hazard Control Offense Tour Moments

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-677097
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-678483

Eject Pack Offense

This type of offense is centered around keeping offensive momentum/pressure up on your opponent. You abuse the new item gamefreak presented to us with powerful Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Gholdengo, & many more. It's admittedly probably the least popular and hardest playstyle to pull off effectively.

Eject Pack Offense Tour Moment

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-682835

Energy Booster Offense

This type of offense can easily overwhelm your opponent. It is one of the most consistent offensive playstyles currently (mostly due to shed tail pairing) and even if you don't favor this type of offense its hard to turn down using the item energy booster itself. This playstyle is centered around the MVPs of Energy Booster, Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, & Iron Moth.

Energy Booster Offense Tour Moments

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-673383
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-682420

I personally feel with all the advantages that offense has, there is very little reason not to take advantage of them. Currently, in the metagame, we've seen Pokemon like Kingambit and Azu go from bulky spreads to now some electing to run jolly max to counteract each other. We've seen red cards start to be consistent on Amoongus and even Glimorra. AV Pex has started to arise in usage so it can handle some of these special attacking threats much better than its passive counterpart sets. We are in an offensive metagame, don't get lost in its fast-paced nature. It's right now all about Speed.


Here are some offensive teams you can enjoy using in this metagame.

Teams

https://pokepast.es/cd7bb516fe40f0ae
https://pokepast.es/a3e6547d84f639b7
https://pokepast.es/e3b09a618ba36e8b
https://pokepast.es/41aee5632db78873
https://pokepast.es/24a196890acdd428

If you wanna discuss the metagame or gain assistance, come visit my server https://discord.gg/VbC3Nx8Vgj

This should honestly be a Flying Press article

 

[Fabriisse]

Alright people, quick question

what is the weirdest set you have tried?
I think I have some gold on AV Roaring Moon, I need to work around it tommorrow tho

tyranitar specs as he gets power gem and can ohko easily tusk with ice beam

 

[Mega Breloom]

What are the speed spreads Kingambit likes to run and what do they outspeed? Or is it just a Kingambit vs kingambit speed creep war

SetsuSetna made a detailed post about this a few days ago.

So for everyone keeping up with the Kingambit, Skeledirge, Azumarill speed wars...

Kingambit spreads

1695
| Spreads |
| Adamant:112/252/0/0/0/144 12.353% |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 8.915% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 7.425% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 5.415% |
| Adamant:52/252/0/0/0/204 4.237% |
| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 4.219% |
| Other 57.437% |

1825
| Spreads |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 18.113% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 12.833% |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 9.106% |
| Adamant:112/252/0/0/0/144 5.869% |
| Adamant:52/252/0/0/0/204 5.313% |
| Adamant:76/252/0/0/0/180 4.287% |
| Other 44.480% |

Skeledirge spreads

1695
| Spreads |
| Calm:248/0/0/8/252/0 12.938% |
| Bold:248/0/148/0/64/48 8.137% |
| Bold:252/0/40/0/188/28 6.034% |
| Modest:248/0/0/96/128/36 3.392% |
| Calm:252/0/0/0/212/44 3.053% |
| Bold:248/0/132/0/0/128 2.314% |
| Other 64.131% |

1825
| Spreads |
| Bold:248/0/132/0/0/128 13.869% |
| Calm:248/0/0/0/132/128 9.257% |
| Calm:248/0/0/8/252/0 9.123% |
| Bold:248/0/148/0/64/48 8.903% |
| Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 4.975% |
| Bold:252/0/40/0/188/28 4.935% |
| Other 48.938% |

Azumarill spreads

1695
| Spreads |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 14.949% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/0/4 10.256% |
| Adamant:252/252/4/0/0/0 9.330% |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 8.472% |
| Adamant:108/252/0/0/0/148 7.558% |
| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 6.111% |
| Other 43.324% |

1825
| Spreads |
| Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 32.520% |
| Adamant:108/252/0/0/0/148 17.365% |
| Adamant:92/252/4/0/0/160 10.076% |
| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 6.998% |
| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 6.605% |
| Adamant:252/252/4/0/0/0 3.916% |
| Other 22.519% |

It seems like the time has finally come where all 3 of these Pokemon are done crippling each other with 192 Spe Kingambit, 36 Spe Skeledirge, 172 Spe Azumarill and so on. Kingambit's most popular sets are now max Speed, particularly in 1825 where Jolly is also popular; Jolly also lets you get the jump on 0 Spe Rotom-W or Great Tusk for example. Skeledirge is slowly going faster, with 128 Spe EVs allowing it to outspeed Adamant Kingambit and Azumarill; these is a lot of investment though so we will see if this trend continues. Azumarill also seems to be picking up on max Speed, and while Jolly is definetely a thing, its still not up there in the main sets just yet.

Other interesting things about these Pokemon and the speed benchmarks

• Kingambit has been running a lot of Low Kick, Azumarill Encore, and Skeledirge Tera Blast.
• Kingambit has been opting for Black Glasses a lot lately, notably being its most used item in 1825.
• Some defensive Rotom-W have been running some more speed, such as 16 EVs or 56 EVs.

 

[Return to Zero]

Alright people, quick question

what is the weirdest set you have tried?
I think I have some gold on AV Roaring Moon, I need to work around it tommorrow tho

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Spirit Break
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

I genuinely think this is the worst thing I've ever actually tried to run.

 

[awyp]

@Council

Can we get some sort of idea of there's been anything in the recent radar?

Is Volcarona being considered? Kingambit? Garganacl? Baxcalibur?

 

[MAVERICK SHOOTERS]

USEFUL EV SPREADS
This post will have ev spreads of common mons with very minimal adjustments from the usual 252 252 we usually do,these ev spreads will be very clutch and require very minimal investment with the calc it's relevant to mentioned under the spread,I will also include the sets of the mons but those can be changed to whatever suits the team better,this post is mainly just to give the ev spreads:

KINGAMBIT

Erebus (Kingambit) @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Calc:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 80 HP / 8 SpD Kingambit: 306-360 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

DEFENSIVE GREAT TUSK

Tuskuthy (Great Tusk) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 164 Def / 80 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock

Calc:

16 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 288-342 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

OFFENSIVE GREAT TUSK

Tuskuthy (Great Tusk) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 232 Atk / 24 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin

Calc:

252 SpA Glimmora Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Great Tusk: 314-370 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

IRON MOTH

Polyphemus (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 64 HP / 60 Def / 132 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Psychic
- Sludge Wave
- Substitute

Calc:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 268-316 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IRON VALIANT

Mav's Joint (Iron Valiant) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 SpA / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind

Calc:

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Iron Valiant: 244-288 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

BULKY CINDERACE

Bunny Joint (Cinderace) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 224 HP / 32 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Court Change

Calc:

32 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

DRAGAPULT

Hades (Dragapult) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 12 Def / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

Calc:

252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Dragapult: 266-314 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

OFFENSIVE VOLCARONA

Sunburst (Volcarona) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 32 Def / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz
- Tera Blast
- Quiver Dance

Calc:

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 32 Def Volcarona: 262-310 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SKELEDIRGE

Dirgiano Duvitsky (Skeledirge) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 240 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Shadow Ball
- Slack Off
- Substitute

Calc:

0 Atk Garganacl Salt Cure vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Skeledirge: 84-102 (20.4 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

CLODSIRE

Antheia (Clodsire) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Recover

Calc:

0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Clodsire: 390-462 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

TOXAPEX

Triton (Toxapex) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 224 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Sludge Bomb
- Infestation
- Tera Blast

Calc:

252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Toxapex: 222-264 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

TYRANITAR

Godzilla (Tyranitar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Atk / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock

Calc:

48 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 136-160 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Hope these spreads were helpful and came in clutch for you as well,I would love to do more of these type of posts but I am way too lazy

 

[1LDK]

AV Roaring Moon, I need to work around it tommorrow tho

I just came to say that I made a full experiment and I can say that it fucking sucks, I also tried a Dragon tail defensive set, it also sucks
2 reasons
1) I'm bad at every single thing that I try to do in this life, and that has made a hole in my self-esteem to the point of self-sufficiency
2) The meta is too offensive for this type of shenanigans, people are putting speed eves on things that don't need it because they are too paranoid, and hazard stacking is surprisingly hard to pull off, at least in my opinion

Other stuff that I got out of the experiment
wishes it could have the 3 abilities at the same time, and it kinda sucks when you try to set up spikes, also the smogon set recommends boots, which from what I understand, this allows clod to NOT absorb T-Spikes, which is counterproductive to a big extent
I got so used to scarf that I forgot how much band does, holy fuck I love this degenerate bait mon
I was thinking about AV Gholdengo for a bit, but the voices in my head told me not too, ill just leave it for anyone to see. In another news, this mon still puts in work no matter the matchup

 

[kingmickey27]

wishes it could have the 3 abilities at the same time, and it kinda sucks when you try to set up spikes, also the smogon set recommends boots, which from what I understand, this allows clod to NOT absorb T-Spikes, which is counterproductive to a big extent

Bulbapedia says Boots still allows grounded Poison types to remove Toxic Spikes

Toxic Spikes are pretty brutal in the current meta. Hazard removers are scarce and most are grounded, so teams that don't have a grounded Poison type really hate the poison damage, especially if the team relies on Great Tusk/Ling-Lu as their defensive backbone.

 

[Pietrym]

Here's my potentially nuclear take: I think that Weavile is a legitimately good mon in OU and is terribly underrated. Yes, not having Knock Off anymore gives it less utility and yes, Ice Spinner's lesser power compared to Triple Axel is noticeable. But even despite the nerfs it got in the generational transition, I firmly believe that Weavile is more than just viable.

What seperates Weavile from other physical attackers in the tier is its speed; Every OU mon other than Dragapult needs a Scarf to outspeed it, and even then, it will probably speed-tie since the most popular Pult variants are not +Speed. This means it reliably (tera types notwithstanding of course) threatens things like Amoongus, Clodsire, Ceruledge, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, Garchomp, Hydreigon, and H-Zoroark, with the latter 4 being mons that Baxcalibur, which you could consider Weavile's main "competitor", can't immediately threaten with standard sets. What's more, even despite losing Knock Off and Triple Axel, Night Slash and Ice Spinner are still plenty strong. Everyone seems to think Weavile is absolute garbage solely because it doesn't learn those two moves anymore, but it still deals good damage to a lot of threats. Sure, it usually can't OHKO non-supereffective targets from around full health, but neither can most other attackers, and Weavile has an incredibly spammable STAB combo either way--only Azumarill and Kingambit resist both. So while it does require additional support and prior chip damage, it's nothing that other attackers don't require as well and that, plus its great speed and STABs, gives Weavile plenty of opportunities to break down teams. Choice Band sets have few switch-ins while Swords Dance sets are fierce wallbreakers.

To illustrate the excellence of its STAB combo, I'll completely rip off the idea from the Glaceon post about going down the viability rankings and highlighting mons vulnerable to Weavile when not considering coverage like Low Kick (basically just listing mons weak to its STABs).

List (Down to B- Rank)

S Rank:

S Rank

Great Tusk: Ice Spinner

S- Rank

Dragapult: Ice Spinner

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Dragonite: Ice Spinner

Gholdengo: Night Slash

A Rank

Roaring Moon: Ice Spinner

Ting-Lu: Ice Spinner

A- Rank

Amoonguss: Ice Spinner

Clodsire: Ice Spinner

Garchomp: Ice Spinner

Hydreigon: Ice Spinner

Meowscarada: Ice Spinner

Skeledirge: Night Slash

Slowking: Night Slash

Zoroark-Hisui: Night Slash

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Ceruledge: Night Slash

B Rank

Breloom: Ice Spinner

Brute Bonnet: Ice Spinner

Sandy Shocks: Ice Spinner

B- Rank

Armarouge: Night Slash

Indeedee: Night Slash

Iron Jugulis: Ice Spinner

Polteageist: Ice Spinner

Toedscruel: Ice Spinner

Snow's defense boost is also a great help for Weavile. It's not going to be super bulky under snow, but it will more reliably be able to take a strong hit; this alongside the fact that Slowking is already a great partner for Weavile due to its bulk, utility outside of setting snow, and the two's ability to cover each other's checks makes it a solid choice on the increasingly popular snow teams. Under snow, Weavile's buffed defense allows it to avoid the OHKO on attacks like CB Meowscarada's Flower Trick and Extreme Speed from +1 Attack Tera Normal Dragonite.

Outside of Slowking, Weavile also has other mons it can form great cores with, such as:

• 
  Garchomp punishes attacks aimed at Weavile with Rough Skin and can set up Rocks or Spikes to wear down the opposition before Weavile can go in for the kill.
• 
  H-Zoroark's typing and special-attacking prowess give it mostly different checks compared to Weavile, so using Illusion to disguise as it can force opponents to make risky predictions.
• 
  Hatterene's ability to prevent hazards with Magic Bounce is generally appreciate by any team, and Weavile is no exception. This can provide Weavile with more opportunities to switch in alongside other utility in Mystical Fire and Nuzzle.
• 
  W-Rotom's burn and paralysis support will prove highly useful to Weavile; suddenly, a lot of mons can't deal massive damage to it with physical attacks and even the few that outspeed it can no longer utilize said speed to threaten it out. Volt Switch is also useful for pivoting Weavile onto the field to fire off its attacks in the first place.

That's it from me. There are other mons I think are overlooked in the metagame, but I'll make seperate posts about those eventually. I hope this post has convinced you to give Weavile a try!

 

[awyp]

Here's my potentially nuclear take: I think that Weavile is a legitimately good mon in OU and is terribly underrated. Yes, not having Knock Off anymore gives it less utility and yes, Ice Spinner's lesser power compared to Triple Axel is noticeable. But even despite the nerfs it got in the generational transition, I firmly believe that Weavile is more than just viable.

What seperates Weavile from other physical attackers in the tier is its speed; Every OU mon other than Dragapult needs a Scarf to outspeed it, and even then, it will probably speed-tie since the most popular Pult variants are not +Speed. This means it reliably (tera types notwithstanding of course) threatens things like Amoongus, Clodsire, Ceruledge, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, Garchomp, Hydreigon, and H-Zoroark, with the latter 4 being mons that Baxcalibur, which you could consider Weavile's main "competitor", can't immediately threaten with standard sets. What's more, even despite losing Knock Off and Triple Axel, Night Slash and Ice Spinner are still plenty strong. Everyone seems to think Weavile is absolute garbage solely because it doesn't learn those two moves anymore, but it still deals good damage to a lot of threats. Sure, it usually can't OHKO non-supereffective targets from around full health, but neither can most other attackers, and Weavile has an incredibly spammable STAB combo either way--only Azumarill and Kingambit resist both. So while it does require additional support and prior chip damage, it's nothing that other attackers don't require as well and that, plus its great speed and STABs, gives Weavile plenty of opportunities to break down teams. Choice Band sets have few switch-ins while Swords Dance sets are fierce wallbreakers.

To illustrate the excellence of its STAB combo, I'll completely rip off the idea from the Glaceon post about going down the viability rankings and highlighting mons vulnerable to Weavile when not considering coverage like Low Kick (basically just listing mons weak to its STABs).

List (Down to B- Rank)

S Rank:

S Rank

Great Tusk: Ice Spinner

S- Rank

Dragapult: Ice Spinner

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Dragonite: Ice Spinner

Gholdengo: Night Slash

A Rank

Roaring Moon: Ice Spinner

Ting-Lu: Ice Spinner

A- Rank

Amoonguss: Ice Spinner

Clodsire: Ice Spinner

Garchomp: Ice Spinner

Hydreigon: Ice Spinner

Meowscarada: Ice Spinner

Skeledirge: Night Slash

Slowking: Night Slash

Zoroark-Hisui: Night Slash

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Ceruledge: Night Slash

B Rank

Breloom: Ice Spinner

Brute Bonnet: Ice Spinner

Sandy Shocks: Ice Spinner

B- Rank

Armarouge: Night Slash

Indeedee: Night Slash

Iron Jugulis: Ice Spinner

Polteageist: Ice Spinner

Toedscruel: Ice Spinner

Snow's defense boost is also a great help for Weavile. It's not going to be super bulky under snow, but it will more reliably be able to take a strong hit; this alongside the fact that Slowking is already a great partner for Weavile due to its bulk, utility outside of setting snow, and the two's ability to cover each other's checks makes it a solid choice on the increasingly popular snow teams. Under snow, Weavile's buffed defense allows it to avoid the OHKO on attacks like CB Meowscarada's Flower Trick and Extreme Speed from +1 Attack Tera Normal Dragonite.

Outside of Slowking, Weavile also has other mons it can form great cores with, such as:

• 
  Garchomp punishes attacks aimed at Weavile with Rough Skin and can set up Rocks or Spikes to wear down the opposition before Weavile can go in for the kill.
• 
  H-Zoroark's typing and special-attacking prowess give it mostly different checks compared to Weavile, so using Illusion to disguise as it can force opponents to make risky predictions.
• 
  Hatterene's ability to prevent hazards with Magic Bounce is generally appreciate by any team, and Weavile is no exception. This can provide Weavile with more opportunities to switch in alongside other utility in Mystical Fire and Nuzzle.
• 
  W-Rotom's burn and paralysis support will prove highly useful to Weavile; suddenly, a lot of mons can't deal massive damage to it with physical attacks and even the few that outspeed it can no longer utilize said speed to threaten it out. Volt Switch is also useful for pivoting Weavile onto the field to fire off its attacks in the first place.

That's it from me. There are other mons I think are overlooked in the metagame, but I'll make seperate posts about those eventually. I hope this post has convinced you to give Weavile a try!

View attachment 505911

As long as you keep entry hazard away, because I think Boots is just too weak, it becomes a solid mon. It outspeeds everything in OU (not booster energy, scarfed) except Dragapult (Speed Tie if modest but can always go with the Ice Shard).

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

I do think it's underrated as well, I think if it ever ends up getting Knock Off it'll be back in OU.

 

[pika pal]

Probably a long shot for a reason, but has anyone experimented with Breloom's old Poison Heal Sets (I recall a SubSeed and SubPunch variant)? Most sets I see tend to focus on its (potent) Technician Power, but with only 4 Grass Types in the B- Rankings (6 if we include Tera Grass Volc variants and Breloom itself) and Gholdengo on the decline, Leech Seed is becoming a safer move to throw out than in past gens overrun by Ferrothorn. Glimmora even means that Breloom could proc it without the Toxic Orb if you're ballsy and wanna run a different item (don't do this part but it's fun to think about).

If not PH, has anyone tried out other parts of the old sets like the mentioned Leech Seed as a way to offset chip when Checks switch in like Tera Fairy-d Garg, Corviknight, or Skeledirge (which often have High HP to sap for Breloom or the next entry), given he already deters stuff like Tusk, Ting-Lu, and Kingambit, and typical Grass types don't like to Switch into Breloom for other reasons (Amoongus hates Tera Blast Fire and so has to debate Spore vs Sludge Bomb if Breloom has Tera, Meowscarada and Brute Bonnet fear Mach Punch, and if Toedscruel shows up, it can't Spore while hating neutral Bullet Seed). Can also be good for annoyance or Hazard Shuffling since Breloom already threatens to shut down checks with Spore, then the next Answer has to deal with Leech Seed.

 

[Finchinator]

@Council

Can we get some sort of idea of there's been anything in the recent radar?

Is Volcarona being considered? Kingambit? Garganacl? Baxcalibur?

I was on LoA for a few weeks and prior to it, we agreed to let things settle for a bit after the Walking Wake suspect as nothing stood out much on the last survey and we do not feel overwhelmingly as a council.

I think we are in the thick of the Home timing dilemma currently, but I am not opposed to acting if we have clear and consistent support on something. I do not know that we do though.

Going through a list of things,

• Volcarona is the most broken to me, but it is still checkable (albeit not as consistently as I would personally like). I will say that it’s getting increasingly possible to detect which variant it is based off of team compositions and early game play, but that doesn’t necessarily make it easier to account for in the builder.
• Kingambit to me is something that I would strongly support suspecting if we had a long-standing format, but I find incredibly hard to act on given our state of flux right now. By textbook definition, Kingambit can be seen as (at least borderline) broken with the lack of counterplay and arguably forced repetition of things like Great Tusk. However, it also is one of the few responses to Shadow Ball/Ghost types and it also provides some other things as well. I hate tiering this way as broken-checks-broken is the end result and long-form tiering methodology is to just suspect the problem and then you can always act on whatever becomes broken afterwards later as well, but with such a tight window, pursuing that seems ill advised. I’m really not too sure what the best solution is and I would like for it to be included in whenever the next survey is, but I’m also not in a hot rush for that survey to happen quite yet.
• Shed Tail is a nuisance and polluting the ladder (and even tournaments) a lot more than we would like considering the fact that it’s uniquely cheesy. I could justify acting on it perhaps easier than either of the above, but at the same time I don’t know if it’s pressing or even as metagame warping as it once was. Definitely deserves continued discussion
• Garganacl I am not sold on necessarily. It seems increasingly manageable to me, even without using Covert Cloak as much as previously. Obviously if the community supports it enough, I will not use just my own personal opinion to withhold action. It’s important one voice doesn’t dictate too much.
  
  

 

[kingmickey27]

I was on LoA for a few weeks and prior to it, we agreed to let things settle for a bit after the Walking Wake suspect as nothing stood out much on the last survey and we do not feel overwhelmingly as a council.

I think we are in the thick of the Home timing dilemma currently, but I am not opposed to acting if we have clear and consistent support on something. I do not know that we do though.

Going through a list of things,

• Volcarona is the most broken to me, but it is still checkable (albeit not as consistently as I would personally like). I will say that it’s getting increasingly possible to detect which variant it is based off of team compositions and early game play, but that doesn’t necessarily make it easier to account for in the builder.
• Kingambit to me is something that I would strongly support suspecting if we had a long-standing format, but I find incredibly hard to act on given our state of flux right now. By textbook definition, Kingambit can be seen as (at least borderline) broken with the lack of counterplay and arguably forced repetition of things like Great Tusk. However, it also is one of the few responses to Shadow Ball/Ghost types and it also provides some other things as well. I hate tiering this way as broken-checks-broken is the end result and long-form tiering methodology is to just suspect the problem and then you can always act on whatever becomes broken afterwards later as well, but with such a tight window, pursuing that seems ill advised. I’m really not too sure what the best solution is and I would like for it to be included in whenever the next survey is, but I’m also not in a hot rush for that survey to happen quite yet.
• Shed Tail is a nuisance and polluting the ladder (and even tournaments) a lot more than we would like considering the fact that it’s uniquely cheesy. I could justify acting on it perhaps easier than either of the above, but at the same time I don’t know if it’s pressing or even as metagame warping as it once was. Definitely deserves continued discussion
• Garganacl I am not sold on necessarily. It seems increasingly manageable to me, even without using Covert Cloak as much as previously. Obviously if the community supports it enough, I will not use just my own personal opinion to withhold action. It’s important one voice doesn’t dictate too much.

After reading this, I noticed that something that all of these things (except Shed Tail) have in common that can make them problematic is Terastalization. Not saying Tera is broken, but that if pushed too far, it might be worth looking at again. Just my two cents.

• Shed Tail can be as bullshit as Baton Pass was. I think Orthworm being in A- on the Viability Rankings + people nomming it for an even higher rank means its definitely not a cheesy strategy. In this meta, allowing anything to set up a free Substitute can result in things quickly getting out of hand. With its defensive traits, Orthworm can reliably pass a Substitute against a good chunk of the tier.
• I think Garganacl is manageable. Its a strong wincon, but it can't bullshit its way out of situations like Volcarona and to a lesser extent, Kingambit can. I think it also holds an important place in the current meta as a defensive option, so I don't think getting rid of it would be beneficial.

 

[1LDK]

Probably a long shot for a reason, but has anyone experimented with Breloom's old Poison Heal Sets (I recall a SubSeed and SubPunch variant)? Most sets I see tend to focus on its (potent) Technician Power, but with only 4 Grass Types in the B- Rankings (6 if we include Tera Grass Volc variants and Breloom itself) and Gholdengo on the decline, Leech Seed is becoming a safer move to throw out than in past gens overrun by Ferrothorn. Glimmora even means that Breloom could proc it without the Toxic Orb if you're ballsy and wanna run a different item (don't do this part but it's fun to think about).

If not PH, has anyone tried out other parts of the old sets like the mentioned Leech Seed as a way to offset chip when Checks switch in like Tera Fairy-d Garg, Corviknight, or Skeledirge which often have High HP to sap for Breloom or the next entry), given he already deters stuff like Tusk, Ting-Lu, and Kingambit, and typical Grass types don't like to Switch into Breloom for other reasons (Amoongus hates Tera Blast Fire and so has to debate Spore vs Sludge Bomb if Breloom has Tera, Meowscarada and Brute Bonnet fear Mach Punch, and if Toedscruel shows up, it can't Spore while hating neutral Bullet Seed). Can also be good for annoyance or Hazard Shuffling since Breloom already threatens to shut down checks with Spore, then the next Answer has to deal with Leech Seed.

I have tried this set I crafted
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spore
- Substitute

I used it on a stall team, you basically don't give a shit about Orthworm leads, it gets hard walled by ghost, but on a stall team you probably have Gholdengo, so you can hit it with that, 240 HP hits a magic PH and sub recovery number, the rest in def because why not

it's very 50/50, but it works

Garganacl

N E U R O N
A C T I V A T O N

I have talked about my opinions before, so I'll just talk about Kingambit, who seems to be the new King of the hill.
1) it runs only 1 set, stuff like low kick, tera blast are for cheese cooking, but can throw you up
2) +2 can destroy most things, especially with Supreme Overlord, just like Houndstone in the early days of the meta, it punishes you for winning, just 3 mons dead makes Dondozo go from counter to check because Unaware IS AWARE of SO
3) It forces mind games with Sucker Punch, making most ways to approach it 50/50
4) The true innovations come from the combination of Tera and Items, Fire/Flying/Ghost/Grass/Ground/Dark + Lum Berry/Boots/Leftovers/Metal Coat/Black Glasses/ or even forgo sd and take choice band/AV
5) While bulky, due to the meta filled with ground, fighting, fire types + sun, and Garganacl can punish him for trying to enter, the meta is naturally hostile towards it in various way, forcing gambit to tera if it wants to tera, this could make the kingambit player force himself into an obvious sacrifice
6) People are so afraid of it that they are doing speed creep wars with mons like rotom and skeledirge, in my personal opinion, I find this to be dumb, because you're cutting eves from somewhere else more important, on both sides, and your matchup against offense doesn't really improve

Kingambit is good, really good, but it can be managed due to the natural coverage and meta defining mons around it
Besides, once HOME rolls around, we are gonna get the single biggest Kingambit counter in the game
that's right, I'm talking about WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (calcs done with Rocky Helmet)

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 189-223 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 100-118 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 82-97 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 300-352 (81.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Fabriisse]

I have tried this set I crafted
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spore
- Substitute

I used it on a stall team, you basically don't give a shit about Orthworm leads, it gets hard walled by ghost, but on a stall team you probably have Gholdengo, so you can hit it with that, 240 HP hits a magic PH and sub recovery number, the rest in def because why not

it's very 50/50, but it works


N E U R O N
A C T I V A T O N

I have talked about my opinions before, so I'll just talk about Kingambit, who seems to be the new King of the hill.
1) it runs only 1 set, stuff like low kick, tera blast are for cheese cooking, but can throw you up
2) +2 can destroy most things, especially with Supreme Overlord, just like Houndstone in the early days of the meta, it punishes you for winning, just 3 mons dead makes Dondozo go from counter to check because Unaware IS AWARE of SO
3) It forces mind games with Sucker Punch, making most ways to approach it 50/50
4) The true innovations come from the combination of Tera and Items, Fire/Flying/Ghost/Grass/Ground/Dark + Lum Berry/Boots/Leftovers/Metal Coat/Black Glasses/ or even forgo sd and take choice band/AV
5) While bulky, due to the meta filled with ground, fighting, fire types + sun, and Garganacl can punish him for trying to enter, the meta is naturally hostile towards it in various way, forcing gambit to tera if it wants to tera, this could make the kingambit player force himself into an obvious sacrifice
6) People are so afraid of it that they are doing speed creep wars with mons like rotom and skeledirge, in my personal opinion, I find this to be dumb, because you're cutting eves from somewhere else more important, on both sides, and your matchup against offense doesn't really improve

Kingambit is good, really good, but it can be managed due to the natural coverage and meta defining mons around it
Besides, once HOME rolls around, we are gonna get the single biggest Kingambit counter in the game
that's right, I'm talking about WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (calcs done with Rocky Helmet)

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 189-223 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 100-118 (26.3 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 82-97 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 300-352 (81.3 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

yeah but tera fire or tera flying kingambit can be used except if tera is banned when pokemon home is released

 

[AYellowGalaxy]

Shed Tail is such a nuisance to certain playstyles of HO with the free switch in it gives to mons like Baxcalibur and especially Flying Moon. Running an offensive team against an Orthworm is a nightmare as you're literally forced to sac a mon each time it shed tails. It is gimmicky but it's very restrictive.