Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Can we get some honest discussion on Zamazenta and Zamazenta-H's status? I personally think they should stay in Ubers, but I'm curious about the general opinion of the community. Here is the suspect thread for the gen 8 discussion on unbanning them.
A few questions to consider:
Do the arguments against and for unbanning in gen 8 hold up?
Does the nerf to Dauntless Shield help a lot overall?
How does Zama benefit from their new kit in gen 9?
The tier is well prepared for both fast, strong fighting types (Iron Valiant) and bulky, powerful fighting types (Great Tusk), so Zamazenta isn't going to force team building to adapt to it - the meta is already adapted to its general threat. Being both fast and bulky does mean it's an extra challenge, but lacking a second STAB also means it's not strictly better.

Fighting as a defensive type is possibly the best it's ever been, given the dominance of dark types and the lack of birds, but there's a few new flying types coming in with Home to help check the doggo. The dark resist is likely to remain extremely valuable, though, and a rocks resistance will never go out of style, so Zamazenta's typing isn't a weakness defensively.

If it had any of the good offensive boosting moves, I'd say send it to Ubers without a doubt, but you're left with Howl or ID/BP. It's just about physically unbreakable the first time it comes in, and that might be too much for the tier, but it's not so overbearing that I wouldn't give it a chance. For what it's worth, some of the best checks in NatDex are Gen 9 mons, so they're both available and not relying on moves lost to dexit.
 
If your Annihilape team autoloses to Zoroark-H, that means you're bad at the game, not that Annihilape is balanced

Like, there are 5 other Pokemon on your team lol

(also, why are people acting like Zoroark-H is some kind of unkillable wall when it's really frail and doesn't switch in on stuff that easily? You realize you can just play to remove Zoroark-H, right?)

Let's re-test Annihilape to find out, maybe you're right and I'm wrong :)

I personally think the meta will shift, Annihilapes on the high end of the ladder will need to run something to hit Zoroark-H, and taking up an extra move slot means that Annihilape is no longer broken vs stall. But I could be wrong. Which is why we test!
 
Let's re-test Annihilape to find out, maybe you're right and I'm wrong :)

This is extremely pointless discussion. I think the argument that because an Uber mon gained one counter it no longer is Uber is a bad faith argument. Even if we're going to think of this as if teams with Annihilape won't just be built with tools to remove Zoroark-H. Zoroark-H is not a great mon and it fell out of the meta quickly once its new-toy syndrome wore off. It is too frail, has a decent speed tier but still can't keep up with the extremely potent offensive threats of the meta today (Valiant, Dragapult, Roaring Moon, etc) and is also defensively checked by Ting-Lu, Kingambit, etc. It's a decent mon, but it's going to fall off hard after Home.

Annihilapes on the high end of the ladder will need to run something to hit Zoroark-H, and taking up an extra move slot means that Annihilape is no longer broken vs stall. But I could be wrong. Which is why we test!

Annihilape does not need coverage to hit Zoroark-H because any team with Annihilape will be built to remove threats like Zoroark-H and to have switch ins to it. Ting-Lu and Kingambit both form very strong cores with Annihilape, both dwindling down the opponents to set up for Annihilape to sweep and also allowing for strong defensive synergy.

On the topic of Annihilape itself, it is still too strong. It has insane bulk and with Tera, mons are able to basically choose what they check this generation. The reason that is so strong on Annihilape though is because it just powers up with Rage Fist while it is able to setup with Bulk Up.

I think if we are going to talk about testing Annihilape again ever, it should be on the basis of "With recent HOME additions, are there enough offensive options to overwhelm Annihilape while having a solid pool of defensive checks." Not that H-Zoroark is immune to both of its STAB, because that doesn't suddenly make a previously Uber tier mon suddenly balanced in OU.
 
Then why are you engaging in it?
can you not see the irony here

Walking Wake can 6-0 most offensive teams and is IMO banworthy, but the existence of hard counters (Clodsire/Gastrodon) kept it in the meta.

Annihilape was banned before its hard counter was introduced. Now that said hard counter exists, it deserves a re-test.
This is entirely simplifying it. WW is only that potent on Sun, which only lasts a set amount of turns, can be replaced by other weather, and most teams have a built-in sun roadblock in Tusk. That's not even to mention that there isn't just one counter like Annihilape. There are many, like the two you mentioned, but also Tera Water Garg and Slowking, and even on offense there are checks that can take a sun-boosted Hydro Steam like Azumarill and Roaring Moon and KO back. That's not even to mention that frankly it's not a good offense team if you've got nothing that outspeeds scarf 109 (I can hear the gen 4 players crying), especially in Sun w/ all the good Proto mons running around. Annihilape is not dependent on weather, can 6-0 not only stall but also balance teams and even offense w/ screen support, and has a singular (niche) counter to its sets that's not at all hard to play around.


I'm going to stop engaging in this discussion after this because frankly it's getting nowhere b/c you refuse to accept the facts.

Edit: Can we stop responding to this guy already this argument is stupid
 
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Tera Water Garg

Dies to Draco


Who, coincidentally, had no usage prior to Walking Wake's existence.

most teams have a built-in sun roadblock in Tusk

Oh right, I forgot. Walking Wake FEARS Great Tusk :totodiLUL:

Slowking / water absorb Clodsire / Gastrodon are hardly on every team. But their mere existence prevents Walking Wake from being broken. I predict that this is what will happen to Annihilape now that Zoro-H exists. You don't NEED to see Zoro-H on every team for Annihilape to be less effective.

Then again, I could be wrong. Which is why we test :)
 
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Then why are you engaging in it?
This is a really bad attitude to have about discussion. Your best defense against people telling you what you're saying is wrong should never be that what you're saying isn't worthy of responding to in the first place.
Walking Wake can 6-0 most offensive teams and is IMO banworthy, but the existence of hard counters (Clodsire/Gastrodon) kept it in the meta.

Annihilape was banned before its hard counter was introduced. Now that said hard counter exists, it deserves a re-test.
There's a whole lot more stopping Wake in the meta than just two counters. It has checks, like the people above me were kind enough to highlight. It has counterplay. It is not a game-altering win condition that forces you to dedicate multiple team members to fighting it. We all just thought it was when it first came out because no one had any idea how to deal with Water offense under sun.

Also, H-Zoroark is not a hard counter. It can definitely switch in against its STAB moves, but Annihilape can deal with it once it's there. You know it learns Night Slash, right?

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 294-348 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Annihilape Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 258-304 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

"But then it can't run Taunt or Rest!" As if this is enough to singlehandedly drop it down from Ubers when every other mechanic that made it busted (Tera, really good defenses, Rage Fist) has gone nowhere.

"Yes it is actually!" Okay, so then you don't run Night Slash. You use hazards to keep track of where the Zoroark is and use the rest of your five team members to fight it instead. And of course, there is always the possibility that the opponent's team simply just... doesn't have one.
 
Also, H-Zoroark is not a hard counter. It can definitely switch in against its STAB moves, but Annihilape can deal with it once it's there. You know it learns Night Slash, right?

I keep needing to repeat myself because you guys just read my last post instead of following the entire conversation.

If you have actually read my posts, you would know that I have been saying this is EXACTLY why it deserves a re-test.

Annihilape was banned because he can 6-0 bulky teams with STABs + bulk up + taunt/substitute.

Replacing either bulk up or taunt/substitute with night slash means you no longer 6-0 bulky teams.

That is what we call a meta shift. The meta we have today punishes Annihilape for running that set. Hence the call for a re-test.
 
I keep needing to repeat myself because you guys just read my last post instead of following the entire conversation.

If you have actually read my posts, you would know that I have been saying this is EXACTLY why it deserves a re-test.

Annihilape was banned because he can 6-0 bulky teams with STABs + bulk up + taunt/substitute.

Replacing either bulk up or taunt/substitute with night slash means you no longer 6-0 bulky teams.

That is what we call a meta shift. The meta we have today punishes Annihilape for running that set. Hence the call for a re-test.

"But then it can't run Taunt or Rest!" As if this is enough to singlehandedly drop it down from Ubers when every other mechanic that made it busted (Tera, really good defenses, Rage Fist) has gone nowhere.

"Yes it is actually!" Okay, so then you don't run Night Slash. You use hazards to keep track of where the Zoroark is and use the rest of your five team members to fight it instead. And of course, there is always the possibility that the opponent's team simply just... doesn't have one.
 
Then why are you engaging in it?

Walking Wake can 6-0 most offensive teams and is IMO banworthy, but the existence of hard counters (Clodsire/Gastrodon) kept it in the meta.

Annihilape was banned before its hard counter was introduced. Now that said hard counter exists, it deserves a re-test.

I'm really confused at the hard counter argument, Zoro-H isn't a hard counter. Comparing it Walking Wake for example, Clodsire / Gastro you can just Tera Fairy and you'll be fine because Flamethrower won't do anything to a wall (Recover), but if you use any other move outside of Rage Fist and Drain Punch Zoro-H will be BBQ chicken.

Examples:

252+ Atk Annihilape Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Night Slash is also a terrible move but I just wanted to put this calc up to show you I don't get the whole Zoro-H argument at all

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252 SpD Annihilape: 320-380 (76 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specs Sball doesn't even OHKO the bulky variant.

it only deserves a "retest" if tera gets banned lmao
 
"But then it can't run Taunt or Rest!" As if this is enough to singlehandedly drop it down from Ubers when every other mechanic that made it busted (Tera, really good defenses, Rage Fist) has gone nowhere.

Yes, it is. Annihilape was a borderline ban and it was only banned because of its matchup against one specific archetype. If that one broken set loses effectiveness, then it's (probably) no longer broken.

Examples:

252+ Atk Annihilape Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

I've explained why Annihilape running Night Slash is EXACTLY why it deserves a re-test like 18 times now.
 
nuff said


to add to this, what do yall think of sub agi wake in the current meta? i've had a lot of success testing it out, and I feel like its such a potent threat, but it is matchup fishy.

I think it's very good, quite an underrated set. Substitute allows you to setup on certain walls, 490 SpA (from Booster) becomes quite a strong hitter and when you combine it with Hydro Pump + Dragon Pulse it has pretty good coverage not much to complain about. Agility makes it outspeed anything +1 in the current meta.
 
Yes, it is. Annihilape was a borderline ban and it was only banned because of its matchup against one specific archetype. If that one broken set loses effectiveness, then it's (probably) no longer broken.
"Yes it is actually!" Okay, so then you don't run Night Slash. You use hazards to keep track of where the Zoroark is and use the rest of your five team members to fight it instead. And of course, there is always the possibility that the opponent's team simply just... doesn't have one.
Do you understand that what you're describing is a metagame where everything is exactly the same as it was before Ape got banned and it ran OU, except now you are forced to run H-Zoroark as a potential counter to it and Ape teams are built around having five backup dancers specifically for beating this potential counter if Ape decides not to do so itself? You are not beating the turd allegations.
nuff said


to add to this, what do yall think of sub agi wake in the current meta? i've had a lot of success testing it out, and I feel like its such a potent threat, but it is matchup fishy.
Super underrated, honestly. The surprise factor alone gets you super far with it. People see Wake, they expect mindless Hydro Steam spam. If they switch out to a wall and you get your free setup, it gets you really far. I think it's the same principle behind Sub Dance sets on Dragapult but even better since it's on someone people don't expect it from.
 
literally anything in the last 4 pages
Can we stop responding to this guy? Bro literally refuses to admit Zoroark-H isn't unstoppable against Ape teams, isn't niche, and isn't only one pokemon repeatedly. He also can't seem to distinguish sarcasm. We don't need to waste our time trying to argue with a brick wall. I'd like to get back to actual metagame discussion.

nuff said


to add to this, what do yall think of sub agi wake in the current meta? i've had a lot of success testing it out, and I feel like its such a potent threat, but it is matchup fishy.
personally I dislike using wake because I find sun hard to use but I used sub agi wake for about 1 week and it always just felt underwhelming imo. Like, it cleans offense even harder, but against defense it really lacks the nuclear power Specs Proto SpA has to just clean everything, which is the set I prefer.
 
to add to this, what do yall think of sub agi wake in the current meta? i've had a lot of success testing it out, and I feel like its such a potent threat, but it is matchup fishy.

eh… it gets walled by two common special walls in water absorb clodsire and slowking. I guess i could see it being good against HO maybe.
 
eh… it gets walled by two common special walls in water absorb clodsire and slowking. I guess i could see it being good against HO maybe.
A good offense team would never give wake a chance to set up, IDK on paper sounds busted but in practice is kinda ass, if proto didn't exist it would be UUBL IMO, since it gets carried by its teamates most of the time.
 
Yes, it is. Annihilape was a borderline ban and it was only banned because of its matchup against one specific archetype. If that one broken set loses effectiveness, then it's (probably) no longer broken.

Ape wasn't borderline. I'd recommend reading the actual post going over it and why it was banned

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/chi-yu-annihilape-and-cyclizar-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3714096/

Where you'll find Ape was almost unanimously votes out. The opposite of borderline.
 
Can people give an update on what's happening meta wise right now? I've stepped away for a bit being unhappy with the tier, but considering home was delayed again, I'd like to potentially retry it before the massive shift when it does release to reassess some of my opinions.
 
Pokémon company takes the criticism that they don’t delay anything by delaying what should have been literally the easiest update by like 4 month lmao, what a joke. How anybody can trust them after they consecutively released SwSh, BDSP, and SV is beyond me. Legends arceus has been the only halfway decent game they’ve released since the original sun and moon, holy hell

The actual hot take is that they've not released anything actually good since gen 4 (and no, gen 5 is not good its uglier than the gens prior and there's too much story), everything since has been either mediocre or shit
 
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