Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Do you understand that what you're describing is a metagame where everything is exactly the same as it was before Ape got banned and it ran OU, except now you are forced to run H-Zoroark as a potential counter to it and Ape teams are built around having five backup dancers specifically for beating this potential counter if Ape decides not to do so itself? You are not beating the turd allegations.

I was actually addressing the meta after home drops. Again, you're reading only my last post and not following the entire argument.

Zoro-H deserves a special mention as he hard counters the main set that got Annihilape banned.

Ape wasn't borderline. I'd recommend reading the actual post going over it and why it was banned

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/chi-yu-annihilape-and-cyclizar-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3714096/

Where you'll find Ape was almost unanimously votes out. The opposite of borderline.

Annihilape was never tested. And I'm pretty sure that was the second attempt to quick ban Annihilape (first one didn't pass) - though I could be wrong on that.

It wasn't until it became clear that Annihilape could 6-0 defensive teams that he got a quick ban.
 
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Sneasler’s natural bulk is bad. Literally same HP and Def as Hoopa, but Fighting/Poison isn’t an awful typing defensively and certainly no where near as bad as Iron Leaves. You have 6 resistances and only 3 weaknesses, 2 of which are nicely covered by top Pokemon like Gholdango and Kingambit. With those resistances too, you survive a lot of things.
It is for a sweeper for unburden sets and the options it has. My main issue with Sneasler is that looks very inconsistent in both sets, for unburden you need either terrian support or an one time use move to the get the speed boost and also tera to be able maximize the damage output. Hawlucha has better tools to abuse unburden and it gets not use because of powercreep, if unburden Hawlucha gets no usage then I don't see how Sneasler can perform better than it. Roaring Moon is superior tera flying acrobatics user because it has better tools to complement the combo, with the most important being proto's boost bypassing unaware which means it doesn't have to worry as much as Sneasler has to do with those walls. While dire claw+poison touch have the issues I commented before, has issues to get into the field due its fragility and that combination isn't consistent, especially with how little chances a frail mon like it will have against offensive teams.
I really don't get why a mon that needs that much support (terrain and tera for unburden, Chilly reception/slow u-turn for status spam) is even considered to be ubers, I might be wrong but I think you guys are overhyping it too much. I personally see it as Iron Leaves 2.0, a cool mon that looks crazy good on paper but the negative traits it has are too much to be ignored after a while.
Personally I see Sneasler as an UUBL mon, but I know people isn't going to let it drop for a long time.
 
It is for a sweeper for unburden sets and the options it has. My main issue with Sneasler is that looks very inconsistent in both sets, for unburden you need either terrian support or an one time use move to the get the speed boost and also tera to be able maximize the damage output. Hawlucha has better tools to abuse unburden and it gets not use because of powercreep, if unburden Hawlucha gets no usage then I don't see how Sneasler can perform better than it. Roaring Moon is superior tera flying acrobatics user because it has better tools to complement the combo, with the most important being proto's boost bypassing unaware which means it doesn't have to worry as much as Sneasler has to do with those walls. While dire claw+poison touch have the issues I commented before, has issues to get into the field due its fragility and that combination isn't consistent, especially with how little chances a frail mon like it will have against offensive teams.
I really don't get why a mon that needs that much support (terrain and tera for unburden, Chilly reception/slow u-turn for status spam) is even considered to be ubers, I might be wrong but I think you guys are overhyping it too much. I personally see it as Iron Leaves 2.0, a cool mon that looks crazy good on paper but the negative traits it has are too much to be ignored after a while.
Personally I see Sneasler as an UUBL mon, but I know people isn't going to let it drop for a long time.
What tools does hawlucha have that sneasler doesn’t? As far as I can see, it has virtually everything hawlucha does with better attack and speed, I genuinely don’t see how this Mon can be anything other than OU. That’s not even considering that it isn’t forced to be an unburden sweeper, it’ll be a competent breaker and pivot banded or with SD heavy boots, which is something hawlucha can’t even hope to accomplish. I’m iffy on it being an Uber, but it’s strengths are certainly much greater than you’re making it out to be
 
It is for a sweeper for unburden sets and the options it has. My main issue with Sneasler is that looks very inconsistent in both sets, for unburden you need either terrian support or an one time use move to the get the speed boost and also tera to be able maximize the damage output. Hawlucha has better tools to abuse unburden and it gets not use because of powercreep, if unburden Hawlucha gets no usage then I don't see how Sneasler can perform better than it. Roaring Moon is superior tera flying acrobatics user because it has better tools to complement the combo, with the most important being proto's boost bypassing unaware which means it doesn't have to worry as much as Sneasler has to do with those walls. While dire claw+poison touch have the issues I commented before, has issues to get into the field due its fragility and that combination isn't consistent, especially with how little chances a frail mon like it will have against offensive teams.
I really don't get why a mon that needs that much support (terrain and tera for unburden, Chilly reception/slow u-turn for status spam) is even considered to be ubers, I might be wrong but I think you guys are overhyping it too much. I personally see it as Iron Leaves 2.0, a cool mon that looks crazy good on paper but the negative traits it has are too much to be ignored after a while.
Personally I see Sneasler as an UUBL mon, but I know people isn't going to let it drop for a long time.
Why Hawlucha doesn't get any usage as an unburden mon is being it has mediocre attack even after a boost and no coverage. This means it's defeated by things that resist its STAB combo or are just bulky in general, like Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Rotom-W, and Pex, not to mention all the things that beat it if they Tera like Tusk, Garg, and Ting-Lu. Sneasler solves these problems by having coverage and enough attack to beat its checks after a boost. For example, take the scenario against Tusk. Hawlucha comes in on Specs Sandy Shocks locked into Earth Power. Band Tusk switches in as Hawlucha Swords Dances. Hawlucha then has to choose between hitting Tusk with a Close Combat or 55 BP Acrobatics. Neither does enough to KO, and Tusk will just Ice Spinner to kill it next turn. Sneasler in this scenario just clicks CC and kills Tusk. It then proceeds to murder the opponent's Gholdengo with Night Slash, as Hawlucha can't do. This same scenario happens with Dozo, Tera Fairy Garg, Moth, Valiant, Slowking, Hatterene. Put simply, Hawlucha has too many checks that practically all teams will have an answer to it. Sneasler reduces the amount of checks by a lot, and the checks that do stop it like Dozo get destroyed by its Choice Band Poison Touch set. They can never be entirely comfortable switching in because if it gets a poison on one of its nuclear Close Combats then they stop being able to wall it. That's not even to mention Dire Claw cheese. (side note: gen 9 has introduced the craziest moves for Balanced Hackmons than any other so far imo) When your switchin has a 50% chance to be crippled by this move, and a 16% chance to stop being able to deal with it at all with the sleep chance. I can't see this pokemon being below top-tier OU, and I think it should and there's a good chance it will be banned.

edit: this is all combined with Tera, which gives it coverage for Tera Poison Garg and Toxapex, the only two things that wall it. pls ban this
 
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It is for a sweeper for unburden sets and the options it has. My main issue with Sneasler is that looks very inconsistent in both sets, for unburden you need either terrian support or an one time use move to the get the speed boost and also tera to be able maximize the damage output. Hawlucha has better tools to abuse unburden and it gets not use because of powercreep, if unburden Hawlucha gets no usage then I don't see how Sneasler can perform better than it. Roaring Moon is superior tera flying acrobatics user because it has better tools to complement the combo, with the most important being proto's boost bypassing unaware which means it doesn't have to worry as much as Sneasler has to do with those walls. While dire claw+poison touch have the issues I commented before, has issues to get into the field due its fragility and that combination isn't consistent, especially with how little chances a frail mon like it will have against offensive teams.
I really don't get why a mon that needs that much support (terrain and tera for unburden, Chilly reception/slow u-turn for status spam) is even considered to be ubers, I might be wrong but I think you guys are overhyping it too much. I personally see it as Iron Leaves 2.0, a cool mon that looks crazy good on paper but the negative traits it has are too much to be ignored after a while.
Personally I see Sneasler as an UUBL mon, but I know people isn't going to let it drop for a long time.
Where do I begin?
1. Hawlucha’s usage being down 100% has to do with the fact that only Pincurchin, Indeedee, and Miraidon are the only Pokemon in the game that can set any Terrain with their abilities.
2. This completely changes when Rillaboom enters ALONGSIDE Sneasler because it’s actually usable and has U-turn.
3. Sneasler probably won’t even run Acrobatics. It has options like Night Slash/Tera Blast, which is usaually better because it beats Gholdango while being neutral to Poison types, or Tera Blast Ground for same thing but with Ghost types instead.
4. The issue of switching in is not much of an issue, as I explained, because you have pivot moves already, and Sneasler has actually a pretty good defensive typing.
5. Pokemon who were pretty frail in the past like Cinderace and Tapu Koko, already proved this true. Fire and Electric/Fairy have great resistances that allow them to pivot around, and they also had plenty of ways, and of course had teammates with U-turn and Volt Switch too.
6. Asking for Rillaboom support or even another pivot is NOT too much support. Pokemon who required far more support, like Darm-G, where Ubers anyways. Sneasler’s case is the fact that any check, besides basically just Gholdango, can instantly be put out of commission with Paralysis or Sleep because of 1 spammable move that does way more than simple Nuzzle. It’s why Gholdango and Garg after Tera is the only true check to this thing, not even a full counter as it can OHKO them with correct coverage. Everything that isn’t Steel or has anti-sleep ability can just randomly be put to Sleep by it.
Landorus? Got poisoned.
Toxapex? Put to sleep.
Dragapult? Completely paralyzed.
Even suppose it’s not strong enough for Ubers. It’s certainly uncompetitive because of Dire Claw letting you cheese wins. It’s also a nightmare for cart players since they don’t have Sleep Clause like Showdown does.
 
Don’t have time to begin the announcements tonight, but a ban will be announced tomorrow night alongside an unban and two new releases having their status set.

Other than that, you should stay tuned for regular updates on post-HOME placements if you’re interested.

Goodnight.
Houndstone or zama
 
Don’t have time to begin the announcements tonight, but a ban will be announced tomorrow night alongside an unban and two new releases having their status set.

Other than that, you should stay tuned for regular updates on post-HOME placements if you’re interested.

Goodnight.
Interested in seeing who... lets them out.
[deafening silence followed by jeers and calls for a public execution.]
 
Let’s talk about :sv/goodra-hiSui:
Goodra-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper / Gooey
Tera Type: Dragon / Steel / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam / Flamethrower / Surf / Thunderbolt / Dragon Pulse / Acid Spray / Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Surf / Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse / Acid Spray / Sludge Bomb

I am not kidding you. You only need Draco meteor and flash cannon and you can run literally any of the moves listed. BoltBeam provides wide coverage. You can also run flamethrower to melt steels. Surf is there if you want, hitting rocks but is inferior to ice beam. Still usable tho. Dragon pulse provides another spammable STAB. Acid spray is a very evil move, allowing you to break through Clodsire and Ting-Lu while also brutally punishing defensive pex. And finally, sludge bomb can be used to spread poisons.

This set is meant to come onto special attacks, then deal massive damage in return. Even without SpDef investment, with an AV and 150 SpDef it’s so bulky that it can tank 2 specs Tera fairy iron valiant moonblasts from full HP. This is an attacker, but instead of LO or specs you run AV, giving you the flexibility of switching moves and the most bulk. This set is used for BO teams to provide a strong check to special attackers while also providing offense.
 
Why didn't we remove critical hit in competitive pokemon? Just asking:pika:

I think the better question is why we didn't remove the entire god fucking rng from competitive pokemon. Though the answer is that smogon tries to make this as close to the official games as possible. I think only the sleep clause and the endless battle clause are made up and not in the official games itself
 
I think the better question is why we didn't remove the entire god fucking rng from competitive pokemon. Though the answer is that smogon tries to make this as close to the official games as possible. I think only the sleep clause and the endless battle clause are made up and not in the official games itself
i think sleep clause existed in pokemon stadium, and smogon took that rule and kinda slapped it on the 1v1 meta
but endless battle clause is definitely made up by smogon
 
Someone in OU chat brought up that Fake Out + U-turn gives you two chances to poison.
So if your Sneas check is def tusk, u have to bring it on on Fake Out- then eat the U-Turn- or something does, y'know?
It's going to cripple its checks/soft checks p easily given enough turns and put things that normally wouldn't KO in range.

Sneasler @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Night Slash

Pretty simple spread but what really wants to switch into this?

Garg can't be psn but u either just do massive damage or U-turn out.
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same w Corv
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 136-162 (34 - 40.6%) -- 49.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gold don't want no smoke either
252 Atk Sneasler Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 160-190 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only counters to this would Amoongus, Pex, Clod, Gold.. but we can fix that thanks to the best, most balanced, most competitive mechanic of all time!

Sneasler @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast

Pex and Clod both easily 2hko- Amoon 3hko

Assuming this is on some offense or hazard stack BO or whatever
252 Atk Tera Ground Sneasler Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Pult doest get much wiggle room for predicting
252 Atk Tera Ground Sneasler Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 166-196 (52.3 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Again, not much I can think of, maybe Tera Flying Garg lmao. (shout outs Srn lol)

I mean there's some mons like Hatt that are 3hko if no hazards up, but again, they're prolly getting psn, and then they can never come in again,

We are entering a S N E A S L E R era friends

This analysis is pretty spot on except for one thing imo.
Yall really planning on spamming fake out+u-turn for free? When static zapdos is coming back?
I recommend protective pads > heavy duty boots bc a paralyzed sneasler is a dead sneasler.
 
I'm not a 100% sure how it works, but does anyone know how Dire Claw works if you're immune to certain statuses? Like if you used Dire Claw against say Toxtricity, it would still have 1/6th of a chance to sleep that Toxtricty, and not have a 50% chance to sleep?
Assuming it works the same way as Tri Attack and Effect Spore, if you are immune to the status, it just won't activate, as the game isn't gonna keep rerolling if the effect doesn't activate. As such, for Tri Attack:
  • A pure Fire-type has a 2/15 chance to have a status afflicted
  • A Fire-/Ice-type has a 1/15 chance to have a status afflicted
  • A Fire-/Ice-type with Limber has a 0 chance to have a status afflicted
The specifics of how they are implemented are as follows:

There are two dice rolls:
  1. One that determines which status will be afflicted
  2. One that determines whether the effect activates
For the first dice roll, the following implementations are used:

Tri Attack:
Code:
/* Random number from 0–29 is rolled */
if (x < 10) {
        /* Effect 1 */
} else if (x < 20) {
        /* Effect 2 */
} else {
        /* Effect 3 */
}

// Effective activation rates:
// 10/30 (1/3) chance to paralyse
// 10/30 (1/3) chance to burn
// 10/30 (1/3) chance to freeze
Effect Spore:
Code:
/* Random number from 0–29 is rolled */
if (x > 10) {
        /* Poison */
} else if (x > 20) {
        /* Paralysis */
} else {
        /* Sleep */
}

// Effective activation rates:
// 9/30 chance to poison
// 10/30 chance to paralyse
// 11/30 chance to put to sleep
// In case it isn't obvious, using > instead of < with the same parameters is a big oversight
 
Sorry to double post but just saw this afterwards and can't just edit it in bc of how alerts work
i think sleep clause existed in pokemon stadium, and smogon took that rule and kinda slapped it on the 1v1 meta
but endless battle clause is definitely made up by smogon
Technically speaking, the sleep clause in Pokemon Stadium is different from the sleep clause that Smogon uses. In Stadium, if you put your own Pokémon to sleep using Rest, Sleep Clause will activate and your opponent won't be able to put any of your other Pokémon to sleep. In Smogon's ruleset, however, if you use Rest and put one of your own Pokemon to sleep, your opponent is still able to put one of its partners to sleep, as that a) avoids a situation where you can use Rest to depreciate one of your opponent's Pokémon before they've even entered the field and b) it is easier to keep track of/prevent artificial checkmate situations on cart, where sleep clause is implemented as a gentlemen's agreement to forfeit upon breaking the rule.
 
IMG_0538.jpeg

fill in the blanks
 
I see a sharp right angle on the first one. So banned Pokemon starts with B, D, or L.
Also see that down left angle of the second to last letter on the OU Pokemon, which likely is a lower case Y.
Edit: For the first 1, it’s either Basculegion male, Basculegion female, Basculin white, Braixen, Braviary-H, Decidueye-H, Delphox, Dialga, Dialga origin, Diancie, Dugtrio, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, or Lilligant-H.
I also noticed an S at the end, so banned Pokemon is definitely Landorus.
Hard to tell what the OU Pokemon is gonna be, but I’ll keep looking.
Edit: Made a mistake. It could also be E fot the first one, which includes Eternatus and Enamorus too (and Electrode, but doesn’t have S at the end)
So 3 possible Pokemon to be banned.
 
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Do we know how dire claw is weighted ?

To make this more than just a one liner, how does feel about ursaluna it’s got by far the best offensive movepool in the tier. And the attack and bulk to do alot with it
 
(Disclaimer: I don't think Sneasler is ban worthy but do think there's more to discuss with its potential usage)

Something I think should be noted for Sneasler is that people are assuming the item has to be something it benefits from and can throw away on command to trigger Unburden. Besides some options like Close Combat White Herb (not like Sneasler is slow if it needs an extra turn to speed itself up), what if the item chosen was something that you are sort of encouraging the opponent to let it keep intact?

EX: Meowscarada is faster than Sneasler, but can't 2HKO with unboosted Flower Trick even after Stealth Rock, necessitating it to have clicked Protean Play Rough (which comes with its own issues since Meow struggles to break Steels) or have a Choice Band. Normally if something like that forces out an opponent, it's free real-estate for Knock Off or U-Turn. But if Meow is staring at Sneasler, U-Turn is opening a turn up for Swords Dance or Dire Claw depending on the set, and outside of certain HO builds, odds are a 123 Speed mon was probably already your main Speed Control, so it'll be rare to have something else faster to U-Turn into (especially if it was the Scarf set). That said, Meowscarada is discouraged from using Knock Off because it could speed up Sneasler, who can now SD on the retreat turn (Scarf would be locked in, while any other set fails to KO with Knock Off + another move) and is now primed to sweep after 1 set-up turn instead of 2 or 1 + some team support.

Roundabout example aside, my point is Sneasler is fast enough that it may not need to trigger Unburden to immediately threaten a sweep, so it's not like it needs to be regarded as lacking an item. If you want a particularly useful item for it, consider Air Balloon: Sneasler's typing already resists Stealth Rock, so let it hover over Spikes and its Ground Weakness for a bit. If the opponent pops the Balloon, then you get to absorb Toxic Spikes instead and are in go-fast mode. This probably pairs especially well Pivoting of your own to control Sneasler's entry so it doesn't get hit too soon, and also discourages opposing Knock Off/U-Turn spam for the above mentioned "you set me up" reason. Given Sneasler's stat profile already matches up pretty well against a lot of HO (base speed/equivalent boosting outruns unboosted Valiant and Cinderace), there's room to play against attackers who don't want it going faster, while Balance/Bulky teams that have to fear a SD boosted turn have the concern of what the item is doing for it (Air Balloon couldn't be touched by EQ-only Clodsire for example, which is free boosting).

This is also running with items that WILL get used up or go away at some point. I could also see merit to playing a "normal" Item Sneasler that can exploit Unburden to be a Knock Off Absorber. Another example: Using Scarf Sneasler as a cleaner or Revenge Killer, opponent can't Knock Off since it'll still be faster from Unburden after losing the Scarf (so no Sac for item removal to allow a Set-up Turn for example). Focus Sash is also telegraphed but probably doesn't hurt as an option on the table, and maybe a cheeky player could use Black Sludge to patch up minor chip and discourage Tricking Sneasler or its teammates (Scarf Rotom-W ain't gonna like that chip if it gets baited on a Trick Attempt for example).

Everything will be banned once HOME drops

Nothing else will start OU

Pokemon is dead.
 
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