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Resource SV OU Post-HOME Viability Ranking Thread [ Final Update: Post #280 ]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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My thoughts on the VR.
Goltres is a bit low. Its deceptively hard to switch into after boosts, just like last gen, and now gets tera to bait super effective hits to activate weakness policy or break through things it shouldn't be able to. Not anywhere near the best thing in the meta but still surprisingly potent even in this powercrept OU meta. Double Dance Goltres is somehow still surprisingly good, and can be deceptively hard to come in on after it gets the boosts, as well as generally being on the fatter side of things to begin with. B -> B+
Nomming Cinderace from A- to A: Court change is big right now, and sacrificing itself to wisp something when its offensive use is done will never fail to be good, and provides some excellent utility in this meta full of crazy physical attackers and spike spam.
Enamorus-T: B+ > B Feels a bit too high for what it does. It can be a cool trick room sweeper and an interesting fat wincon as with some calm minds set up it can just spam draining kiss and not die, but its quite hard to pull off as trick room isn't necessarily good, as well as the fact that sneasler and glowking are everywhere in this meta and can easily beat it before it becomes a threat. Also its kinda outclassed hard by ursaluna and gambit hard as a fat breaker, and outclassed by glowking as a fast special breaker as glowking has more utility and has a much bigger offensive movepool.
Goltres is a bit low. Its deceptively hard to switch into after boosts, just like last gen, and now gets tera to bait super effective hits to activate weakness policy or break through things it shouldn't be able to. Not anywhere near the best thing in the meta but still surprisingly potent even in this powercrept OU meta. Double Dance Goltres is somehow still surprisingly good, and can be deceptively hard to come in on after it gets the boosts, as well as generally being on the fatter side of things to begin with. B -> B+
Nomming Cinderace from A- to A: Court change is big right now, and sacrificing itself to wisp something when its offensive use is done will never fail to be good, and provides some excellent utility in this meta full of crazy physical attackers and spike spam.
Enamorus-T: B+ > B Feels a bit too high for what it does. It can be a cool trick room sweeper and an interesting fat wincon as with some calm minds set up it can just spam draining kiss and not die, but its quite hard to pull off as trick room isn't necessarily good, as well as the fact that sneasler and glowking are everywhere in this meta and can easily beat it before it becomes a threat. Also its kinda outclassed hard by ursaluna and gambit hard as a fat breaker, and outclassed by glowking as a fast special breaker as glowking has more utility and has a much bigger offensive movepool.
It can't trap Dengo since Ghost types are immune to trapping, but Kingambit is a pretty important target.
Clodsire and Garchomp, while clearly having issues outside of this one, definitely got hurt by the tier being flooded with new Ground-Types. They are definitely still OU viable, what with Clodsire's good defensive profile and Garchomp having a good matchup against Hisuian-Samurott and both having great hazard spam now that Hatterene's usage is falling off, but I can see both falling to UU in the near-future.
Enamorus is a flying type, Baxcalibur is an Ice type with the strongest Ice Shard in the game. It also happens to completely body Zapdos and Kingambit + Gholdengo don't want anything to do with its Earthquake. AND it's one of the few physical attackers that can go toe to toe with Tusk.
Curious about Ting-Lu's placement, with 2 of the most powerful special attackers being Fairy-types, and the other big one being able to chip it with U-Turn, not to mention the presence of Samurott which acts both as competition as a Spikes setter and a factor in making Spikes in general more common, which Ting-Lu hates to switch in on, I'd have imagined it would be a lot weaker now, instead of rising up in the rankings. Anything in particular making it good right now?
ironically, the fairies being dominant in OU has a small part in why ting lu is better now.
Enamorus and Iron Valiant loves spikes support, and hisuian samurott isn't exactly the most slappable mon on a team, so Ting-Lu fits perfectly well as a spiker on bulkier teams, not only that, the fairies of OU dislikes Zapdos, Heatran, Iron Moth and Slowking-G which ting-lu counters consistently. Knock off has also become more common with the rise of Physical Valiant and Alolan Muk so hazards are much more easier to abuse. Gholdengo and Dragapult are still excellent pokemon 2 of which ting-lu counter nicely and also pairs with nicely by helping ting-lu keep its hazards up with Spin Blocking and Good as Gold.
With the addition of Slowking-G and Lando-T the meta also has somewhat become more pivot oriented so you will definetly feel the hazard damage way more. Not only that, set up sweepers like bulk-up tusk has become much more common as well so whirlwind is always nice to have.
While Hisuian Samurott is a big competition, the role of Spike Setter also has become much more desirable than before, and with ting-lu pairing up well with some of the strongest breakers and also countering the annoying ghost types, Ting-Lu fits perfectly in this meta.
(besides you can still tera into poison, ghost or water type to win matchups)
What makes Enamorous Therian B+ in the first place? Its lower speed does it no favors when its typing is so weak to Stealth Rock and is weak to a lot of common mons in the meta, such as Glowking and Baxcalibur [undermining its otherwise decent defenses], and Overcoat is almost completely useless outside of blocking Spore. I imagine it has something to do with Trick Room or Tera [hell, even both I suppose] but interesting to see it as high as it is.
I asked this in the metagame discussion thread already, but what specifically changed in the meta for Sandy Shocks to get ranked higher? Sure, Booster Energy sets are nice but being completely reliant on Tera for actual coverage seems like it'd hold it back, no?
[sorry if these may already have been answered previously]
I asked this in the metagame discussion thread already, but what specifically changed in the meta for Sandy Shocks to get ranked higher? Sure, Booster Energy sets are nice but being completely reliant on Tera for actual coverage seems like it'd hold it back, no?
[sorry if these may already have been answered previously]
It’s a good glue Pokemon, but it’s still limited in what it can do and facing stiff competition. It wishes it had recovery and more utility like some prior generations.
I’d say the pace of the metagame and the helpfulness of tools like Encore and Dbond go a long way for Valiant. Also, SD is better now than before.
I think Cinderace was one on the list in the third post of things I could see moving up as we voted on this over a week ago, so that’ll do it.
Corviknight is worth noting here; ghosts cannot be trapped
As we said multiple times, the thread is not open to nominations yet. Feel free to hold these for the next day or two.
I remember the preliminary ranking had Articuno-G ranked very highly. What happened to it?
God I miss Megas.
Screens died down and more countermeasures to certain stored power Pokemon came as balanced and fat archetypes actually had time to develop. Also, just better Pokemon to commit a Tera and focus on as sweepers.
Why is Meowscarada down at B-? I know it's not as good as it used to be but that seems way too low, I really doubt it is as specific/niche as stuff like Iron Treads/Scream Tail or even Greninja who pretty much dissapeared from the meta lately, it is definitely not worse than mons like Hoopa-U, Garchomp, Glimmora, Slowking and others at higher ranks
What's the reasoning behind Heatran in A-? Losing toxic hurts, but it still provides great role compression as a specially defensive rocks setter and remains difficult to check defensively, especially now that it can abuse tera grass to beat grounds.
Also don't want to be that guy, but shouldn't iron valiant be placed above kingambit if the tiers are ordered alphabetically?
Also don't want to be that guy, but shouldn't iron valiant be placed above kingambit if the tiers are ordered alphabetically?
Breloom I feel is only this low because its poison heal sets have yet to catch on. PH Loom is definitely a bit worse in the post home meta with Enamorus and more ice spinner/cc tusk running around (it can 1v1 most tusk variants but not if it has to switch into an offensive bulk up or offensive cc/ice spinner with sleep clause gone), but it offers unexpectedly good role compression as a knock off and status absorber, great scouter of physical hits (and hard wall to most defensive tusk sets), kingambit check if tera is used up, garg check/answer if it lacks setup, solid lead into sam-h if it has protect, and generally difficult to remove annoyance able to spread spore, toxic, and/or leech seed. My favorite sets are sub/seed/spore/drain punch and protect/toxic/drain punch/choice of stone edge or thunder punch. If the meta ever makes its way back toward bulky offense or balance I could see this mon ending up as high as B tier.
Enamorus-T is a really solid sweeper with the Draining Kiss set, specifically on offenses. It’s also viable on Trick Room.
Sandy Shocks just got spammed from that one RMT tbh
It’s a tough rank for it as there is stiff competition and that makes it hard to justify, but when it’s used, it does feel a bit better than that ranking. This is a hard one and we will keep monitoring Meow as the tier settles with time of course.
Heatran probably will rise to the top like always, but in such a polarizing tier, it hasn’t peaked yet as a more balance and bulky offense present option. Gholdengo and Kingambit serve more unique roles than it and Heatran’s defensive profile, while still good, isn’t as practical as prior generations quite yet.
Yes, I didn’t alphabetize properly. This is what happens when we get no sleep. I apologize, and thanks for pointing it out
I like spamming rain as most people probably know by now so I feel like I have a decent enough grasp on what works there and what doesn't. For that reason, I want to bring up Floatzel vs Basculegion, and why Floatzel is significantly better than Basculegion (male).
So let's start with the obvious differences between the two; Floatzel is a lot faster, has a lower Attack stat, isn't as bulky, and has similar/better coverage (still learns Crunch, gains Ice Spinner over Ice Fang). Basculegion is a lot lower, has a higher Attack stat, is decently bulky and in particular has great HP for Wave Crash spamming, on top of that secondary Ghost typing. On paper it does seem like Basculegion is the better of the two, but here's why that isn't the case.
In practice, Floatzel is stronger than Basculegion. This is because Basculegion with an Adamant nature hits a Speed stat of 255, meaning it is at 510 in rain. This misses out on some crucial benchmarks, including but not limited to:
- Booster Energy Iron Valiant
- Booster Energy Iron Moth
- +2 Polteageist
- Choice Scarf Sneasler
- +1 Dragapult
- +1 Roaring Moon
- Choice Scarf Enamorus
and while not quite as relevant, it also misses out on +2 Baxcalibur, Booster Energy Walking Wake, Agility-boosted Modest Walking Wake (most agility wakes are modest), and +2 Dragonite (which is only relevant for Tera Ghost Floatzel).
Now, you can remedy a lot of this with a Jolly nature. By doing so, you outspeed everything here except for +1 Dragapult, Agility Walking wake and the +2 DDers. However, Jolly Basculegion only has an Attack stat of 323; Adamant Floatzel has 339, which is crucial in certain calcs like getting the 2HKO on Toxapex.
Additionally, Basculegion's Ghost typing is irrelevant offensively (unless you run Tera Ghost Tera Blast, which is really not a good idea on rain). This means that it comes into play defensively, which can be nice against Dragonite's Extreme Speed no doubt, but it also gives you a weakness to Kingambit's Sucker Punch, which OHKOs you even at 0 Supreme Overlord boosts. Now of course Floatzel is a lot frailer so it doesn't take that attack well either, but it isn't OHKOd until 5 Supreme Overlord boosts (it's a roll at 4 and 3), which makes it a lot harder to offensively check with the most common priority move.
The Speed is just so important for doing the Swift Swimmer's job of trashing offense. You don't really need it to do the breaking; stuff like Walking Wake, Volcanion, and Kilowattrel (which should be ranked) can do that better. It's a much better cleaner, and they should 100% swap ranks. Female Basculegion is fine where it is though, since it has essentially zero competition.
So let's start with the obvious differences between the two; Floatzel is a lot faster, has a lower Attack stat, isn't as bulky, and has similar/better coverage (still learns Crunch, gains Ice Spinner over Ice Fang). Basculegion is a lot lower, has a higher Attack stat, is decently bulky and in particular has great HP for Wave Crash spamming, on top of that secondary Ghost typing. On paper it does seem like Basculegion is the better of the two, but here's why that isn't the case.
In practice, Floatzel is stronger than Basculegion. This is because Basculegion with an Adamant nature hits a Speed stat of 255, meaning it is at 510 in rain. This misses out on some crucial benchmarks, including but not limited to:
- Booster Energy Iron Valiant
- Booster Energy Iron Moth
- +2 Polteageist
- Choice Scarf Sneasler
- +1 Dragapult
- +1 Roaring Moon
- Choice Scarf Enamorus
and while not quite as relevant, it also misses out on +2 Baxcalibur, Booster Energy Walking Wake, Agility-boosted Modest Walking Wake (most agility wakes are modest), and +2 Dragonite (which is only relevant for Tera Ghost Floatzel).
Now, you can remedy a lot of this with a Jolly nature. By doing so, you outspeed everything here except for +1 Dragapult, Agility Walking wake and the +2 DDers. However, Jolly Basculegion only has an Attack stat of 323; Adamant Floatzel has 339, which is crucial in certain calcs like getting the 2HKO on Toxapex.
Additionally, Basculegion's Ghost typing is irrelevant offensively (unless you run Tera Ghost Tera Blast, which is really not a good idea on rain). This means that it comes into play defensively, which can be nice against Dragonite's Extreme Speed no doubt, but it also gives you a weakness to Kingambit's Sucker Punch, which OHKOs you even at 0 Supreme Overlord boosts. Now of course Floatzel is a lot frailer so it doesn't take that attack well either, but it isn't OHKOd until 5 Supreme Overlord boosts (it's a roll at 4 and 3), which makes it a lot harder to offensively check with the most common priority move.
The Speed is just so important for doing the Swift Swimmer's job of trashing offense. You don't really need it to do the breaking; stuff like Walking Wake, Volcanion, and Kilowattrel (which should be ranked) can do that better. It's a much better cleaner, and they should 100% swap ranks. Female Basculegion is fine where it is though, since it has essentially zero competition.
If this doesn't come to fruition I'd like to hear about the VR council's reasoning to keep Floatzel in D and Basculegion in B. Ty!
edit: i only read the first two posts. i suck. SORRY! i will save this for later but i would still like to hear the reasoning for the last bit ty x_x
double edit bc i didn't notice before: why was alolan muk left unranked? it's been pretty good in wcop and on high ladder, far from an amazing pokemon but certainly good enough to be ranked surely
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Disregard them for the time being then until they are open to noms I guess
Hisuian-Goodra has the same problems as its Kalos counterpart. It offers no defensive utility (Knock Off, Hazards, etc) and no reliable recovery, just raw special bulk. It also doesn’t have enough offensive pressure to be a prominent tank either. Spikes also cuts its impressive bulk by a huge chunk. Not to mention it faces competition with other walls like Glowking, Garg, and Ting-Lu who provide much more for a team.
Why is Gholdengo A+ and not S when you have to run shit like Cinderace to have a chance to actually get hazards off when it exists
Spinner Tusk isn't an answer, it can struggle with getting off against the right sets, and the Tusk has to make a prediction that the Gholdengo is favored
Even if Tusk goes for the middleground Knock Off which wont get close to killing, Gholdengo generally pushes defensive Tusks out and that alone can give HO enough time to get the offensive pressure/setup to sweep with hazards up against a Pokemon that a special attacker sneezes at and it dies
Even if Gholdengo on HO teams dies but prevents the Spin, then it still gives its team momentum, and probably a heavily chipped Tusk/Trick onto a good target.
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 184-218 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 330-388 (76 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Free momentum for its team even if it dies, and Tusk is weak enough to where it is probably never getting hazards off because it is also dealing with hazards.
Then you have how it basically ignores direct status moves, and prevents Pokemon like Corviknight from doing its job. Not just take advantage, actively deny it. Not running Gholdengo on an HO is something you have to justify against using, not to use; which is what an S Tier should be. A Pokemon you throw in the builder when starting a team.
I remember in the pre-HOME VR people claimed Gholdengo struggled against offense but with Fairy Spatkers being one of the best types of threats in the meta, and in the top tiers alone Dragapult, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, Enamorus, Garganacl, Slowking-Galar are all majorly checked by Scarf Gholdengo, let alone Ting-Lu not wanting to be Tricked.
It also has a lot of good sets and things like Trick are multi-staged against Fat, where you can run Recover and literally wall out Pokemon with natural bulk which is unique for the Ghosts in the tier, Focus Blast and be the only Ghost to not rely on Tera to get past Kingambit, and things like Air Balloon. You can always run things like Nasty Plot, coverage, and if you go Tera Ghost yeah no nobody is getting hazards off
Is it just Kingambit? Which Dragapult is also in the same tier as? And a lot of the top tiers are also weak to?
It's only gotten better since it can be paired with Samurott-Hisui which ignores Hatterene. Cinderace doesn't even really enjoy it either. Corviknight, which would be amazing for the tier due to its role compression, has its compression denied against 24.86% of teams, which also puts Gholdengo and Hrott ahead of Valiant, which doesn't mean Valiant is worse, but honestly makes the A Rank Hrott even more baffling.
Cinderace is the only thing that can somewhat reliably get hazards off against hazard stack w/ Gholdengo, and I'ma be for real: If Gholdengo did not exist, that shitmon would be in UU. Shitmon.
One could say that 5 Pokemon would be too many S Tiers, and I'd say that that reflects how over-centralized the metagame is.
So, seriously, how is Gholdengo not in S Tier?
Spinner Tusk isn't an answer, it can struggle with getting off against the right sets, and the Tusk has to make a prediction that the Gholdengo is favored
Even if Tusk goes for the middleground Knock Off which wont get close to killing, Gholdengo generally pushes defensive Tusks out and that alone can give HO enough time to get the offensive pressure/setup to sweep with hazards up against a Pokemon that a special attacker sneezes at and it dies
Even if Gholdengo on HO teams dies but prevents the Spin, then it still gives its team momentum, and probably a heavily chipped Tusk/Trick onto a good target.
0 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 184-218 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 330-388 (76 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Free momentum for its team even if it dies, and Tusk is weak enough to where it is probably never getting hazards off because it is also dealing with hazards.
Then you have how it basically ignores direct status moves, and prevents Pokemon like Corviknight from doing its job. Not just take advantage, actively deny it. Not running Gholdengo on an HO is something you have to justify against using, not to use; which is what an S Tier should be. A Pokemon you throw in the builder when starting a team.
I remember in the pre-HOME VR people claimed Gholdengo struggled against offense but with Fairy Spatkers being one of the best types of threats in the meta, and in the top tiers alone Dragapult, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, Enamorus, Garganacl, Slowking-Galar are all majorly checked by Scarf Gholdengo, let alone Ting-Lu not wanting to be Tricked.
It also has a lot of good sets and things like Trick are multi-staged against Fat, where you can run Recover and literally wall out Pokemon with natural bulk which is unique for the Ghosts in the tier, Focus Blast and be the only Ghost to not rely on Tera to get past Kingambit, and things like Air Balloon. You can always run things like Nasty Plot, coverage, and if you go Tera Ghost yeah no nobody is getting hazards off
Is it just Kingambit? Which Dragapult is also in the same tier as? And a lot of the top tiers are also weak to?
It's only gotten better since it can be paired with Samurott-Hisui which ignores Hatterene. Cinderace doesn't even really enjoy it either. Corviknight, which would be amazing for the tier due to its role compression, has its compression denied against 24.86% of teams, which also puts Gholdengo and Hrott ahead of Valiant, which doesn't mean Valiant is worse, but honestly makes the A Rank Hrott even more baffling.
Cinderace is the only thing that can somewhat reliably get hazards off against hazard stack w/ Gholdengo, and I'ma be for real: If Gholdengo did not exist, that shitmon would be in UU. Shitmon.
One could say that 5 Pokemon would be too many S Tiers, and I'd say that that reflects how over-centralized the metagame is.
So, seriously, how is Gholdengo not in S Tier?
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