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Resource SV OU Viability Ranking Thread [ UPDATE: POST #751 ]

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i kinda took a break from SVOU for a few weeks so i dont have as much to say as i otherwise would, but quick thoughts based on my games in the past few days where ive played a few hours per day
  • S ranks are fine, I'd maybe promote Pult and Gambit to S- since they're about as viable as Garganacl and clearly a step above the other A+ mons imo. :dragapult: :kingambit:
  • A ranks are also mostly fine, I'd promote Garchomp to A (the same tier as Ting-Lu, since I think they're around the same level of viability and fufill similar roles as spikers+hazers+elec immunes, though Chomp matches up better vs all 3 OU electrics and Tusk, who he also chips with roughskin helmet if it spins on a chomp) and maybe demote Corv/Pex to A- since their use is mostly limited to balance rn. :garchomp: :corviknight: :toxapex:
  • I feel Breloom is too high in B+ for a mon that just doesn't match up well vs the current meta, Gholdengo is a pretty free switch, Pult and Dnite are the best dragons rn who both do great vs it, Spore immunities are common enough for it not to be guaranteed value, and its speed tier is just too low for it to excel rn imo. Overall I'd demote Breloom to B- :breloom:
  • Scizor isn't too great now it's lost Defog and Knock and, assuming Pao gets banned, its already-limited use as an offensive BP user will be lessened. Gholden and Gambit are by far the best steels and leave Scizor with a pretty small niche so I'd demote Scizor to B-, too. :scizor:
  • Azumarill is great in the current meta and I'd suggest for it to be promoted but since I'm expecting a Pao ban, I might not feel that way later on. Same goes with Quaquaval but it's probably fine in B either way. If Pao remains legal in SVOU, Azu should rise to B+. :azumarill:
  • I doubted them at first but Srn was right about Arboliva. I used it and it's crazy good. Vouching for their nomination to promote Arboliva from UR to B+. :arboliva:
  • Rain is great now, so I'd promote Pelipper to B and Golduck to C+, since it's on par with if not better than Floatzel imo, and should have risen alongside it, since Dondozo/Pex are continuing to rise in usage and Golduck gets progress vs them more quickly. :pelipper: :golduck:
  • Pawmot is a great, underlooked mon that's so far mostly been dismissed as a Revival Blessing gimmick mon. Grass Knot + Sash has worked great for me, since it can 2hko Tusk and 3hko Dozo, and can revive important teammates if you're about to lose to a setup sweeper. Very little resists Double Shock + CC (and Clod+Pult fear Ice Punch), and revived teammates count towards Supreme Overlord, making it a good partner to Kingambit, too. I think Pawmot's a pretty interesting, underexplored mon, and will take skill to master but for now i think a rise to B+ is a fair estimation of its viability ceiling, and the recent drop to B- doesn't accurately reflect that, imo. :pawmot:
  • Scovillain should be demoted from C to D or UR, it's a bad mon that struggles with most common Dragon and Fire types, and fire-spam sun is less good now Chi-Yu is gone. I know it's already dropped but C wasn't really far enough imo. :scovillain:
I haven't really gotten around to using or fighting many of the lower tier mons enough to have a strong opinion on them, and most other mons are ranked pretty accurately. Appreciate the council's work in providing and maintaining these resources & am hoping for a Pao suspect to start this weekend if the survey results are what I expect them to be (if they're live i haven't read them yet) :)

bonus minor spelling mistake in thread description
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Señor Fuego...
 
coral fan said:
I feel Breloom is too high in B+ for a mon that just doesn't match up well vs the current meta, Gholdengo is a pretty free switch, Pult and Dnite are the best dragons rn who both do great vs it, Spore immunities are common enough for it not to be guaranteed value, and its speed tier is just too low for it to excel rn imo. Overall I'd demote Breloom to B- :breloom:

Loom is better than you think. Pult can only really come in on mach punch, as bullet seed will chip it quite hard whether loaded dice or choice band. Dragonite needs ice spinner or Loom can spore it for a teammate, not to mention rock tomb variants destroy it. Spore immunities are also not THAT common. Gholdengo and Amoonguss are the only notable spore blockers against Breloom, as Garganacl is pressured by bullet seed pre tera. And both Ghold and Amoonguss can be lured and destroyed by tera fire Breloom, which is hugely useful for opening up teammates who are bothered by these mons. Loom also is able to offensively check many threats from Kingambit to ChienPao lacking ice shard, to stuff like Meowscarada, and it generally helps piick up weakened offensive threats via mach punch. Loom also destroys a lot of common defensive mons, from Dondozo to Clodsire to RotomW to Ting-Lu.

Not to mention, Breloom isn't that easy to wall for teams lacking Guss or Gholdengo, as even stuff like Corv which sit on it can be spored which gives Loom's teammates huge opportunity (and broken through via tera fire). Plus it can help emergency check CM Hatterene quite well, threatens bulky Garchomp via Bullet Seed, and can help against Azumarill.

Breloom is fine where it is imo. B+ is a nice reflection of its rank. It's got flaws and can be held back a bit by relevant mons, but it also has strengths that make it notable in the meta.

also as an aside, if you're nomming an UR mon (arboliva), you should probably provide replays to prove the arguments.
 
Moyashi said:
Loom is better than you think. Pult can only really come in on mach punch, as bullet seed will chip it quite hard whether loaded dice or choice band. Dragonite needs ice spinner or Loom can spore it for a teammate, not to mention rock tomb variants destroy it. Spore immunities are also not THAT common. Gholdengo and Amoonguss are the only notable spore blockers against Breloom, as Garganacl is pressured by bullet seed pre tera. And both Ghold and Amoonguss can be lured and destroyed by tera fire Breloom, which is hugely useful for opening up teammates who are bothered by these mons. Loom also is able to offensively check many threats from Kingambit to ChienPao lacking ice shard, to stuff like Meowscarada, and it generally helps piick up weakened offensive threats via mach punch. Loom also destroys a lot of common defensive mons, from Dondozo to Clodsire to RotomW to Ting-Lu.

Not to mention, Breloom isn't that easy to wall for teams lacking Guss or Gholdengo, as even stuff like Corv which sit on it can be spored which gives Loom's teammates huge opportunity (and broken through via tera fire). Plus it can help emergency check CM Hatterene quite well, threatens bulky Garchomp via Bullet Seed, and can help against Azumarill.

Breloom is fine where it is imo. B+ is a nice reflection of its rank. It's got flaws and can be held back a bit by relevant mons, but it also has strengths that make it notable in the meta.

also as an aside, if you're nomming an UR mon (arboliva), you should probably provide replays to prove the arguments.

yeah those are good points. i just wasn't convinced when using it and have never had difficulties fighting it and its use seems pretty niche from a teambuilding perspective. all that said if usage + other players' experiences disagree with me then sure, B+ isn't absurdly high, just a couple ranks higher than i would rank it based on my experiences so far.

also, i'm not specifically nominating arboliva, just agreeing with Srn's post who already provided more than enough evidence to show it is effective and viable in high ladder play. i just touched on it because anecdotally they're right about everything they said about the mon :)
 
Looks good, there are a few things I find better or others worse but overall VRs look great. Just for discussion purposes here's the few things that seem different to me:

Iron moth, Sandy shocks, clodsire and Meoescarada all could have been bit higher.
I find em all better than what they were ranked, saw tournament usage from week 1 and they v effective on the ladder.

Kingambit, Baxcalibur, Hatterene and Hawlucha could have been lower.
I find em abit worse than what they were ranked, still v relevant and good pokemons but maybe not as high as they were as they can be abit more situational or in general less effective based on what i have seen on ladder and week 1 of the current tours.

What do you guys think?
 
Meowscarada definitely deserves to rise to A- imo, not only is it really effective with band, giving good U-Turn support, weakening checks with knock off, and hitting walls like Dondozo, Tera Water Garganacl, and Great Tusk had with Flower Trick, but it also acts as a really potent sash lead. I've recently been using the Leaf Storm tspikes set and it's do reliable at getting multiple layers of hazards up while also OHKOing Great Tausk and blocking defog and opposing hazards with Taunt. Definitely on par with Garchomp and Glimmora to me, both as an offensive threat and a hazards lead.

Not sure if it's too early to discuss Greninja yet, but I've used it a bunch, both with specs and sash lead, and I feel like it's a solid A- rank mon, maybe A rank but A- makes a bit more sense to me for now. I feel like you really want to run Specs on it over any other set, though. Sash lead works well enough but feels mostly outclassed by Meowscarada for the simple reason that, if you Protean to Ground, Poison or Dark, you can no longer OHKO Great Tusk. In theory, Scarf can probably do okay, but I don't really see it doing well when it can't reliably revenge kill Volc unless it runs both Rock Slide and Gunk Shot, which I guess you could run? And Boots could also be fine with U-Turn, but just seems so weak on paper. Specs is the way to go in my opinion, when using Greninja you really want to just nuke stuff. OU is not that well-equipped to handle strong, fast special attackers, especially ones with water STAB since most special walls like Ting-Lu, Garganacl and Unaware Closdire get smashed by Hydro Pump. I find it most effective at just clicking Specs Hydro Pump, sometimes with Tera, and just seeing stuff drop, with Dark Pulse and Ice Beam acting as really, really good coverage and much more easily spammable options due to the accuracy. I also find Spikes to be really good in the 4th slot over U-Turn or another coverage move since Greninja forces switches so easily that it can find plenty of opportunities to pressure the opponent with Spikes, and Great Tusk does not want to switch into it ever. It's probably the best thing you can do vs Toxapex too (you can smack it with Esens and do like 75%, but then Pex just regen pivots out to a Dark-type so I don't know if it's really worth it unless you get that read correct every time) But yeah, in my opinion, Greninja is a premier offensive threat which does really well against offensive teams and can even break down bulkier teams when they're chipped down enough. It also provides a decent Gholdengo check which is really hard for offensive teams to fit a lot of the time, and being able to 1v1 Great Tusk is a fantastic trait for an offensive Pokemon too. Personally, I find it stronger than Cinderace as an offensive threat, it just lacks Cinderace's utility in Wisp and Court Change which I assume is the reason it's A and not A-.
 
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VR is good for the most part, just a couple of my personal Noms :

:Dragonite: -> A/A-

Dragonite deserved A+ when the meta was very HO centric - since it both fits very well on HO and does well vs HO. However, after the recent wave of bans (Chi-yu, Ape, Cyclizar), balance is back with a vengeance and Dragonite doesn't have the best match up vs. this archetype since you have walls like Garganacl and Dondozo on them. It's still good, just that meta doesn't favor it as much right now

:Kingambit: -> A

Kingambit is still a deadly sweeper that does well versus both offensive and bulkier teams. However, it hates the popularity of Great Tusk, who can switch to it easily and beat it, except if it Teras to Flying and thereby mandates consuming the team's Tera to beat Tusk. It also dislikes facing stuff like Water Garganacl and Iron Valiant. It also is a false check to other metagame staples like Chien-Pao, Gholdengo, Dragapult since the former two can use Fighting coverage, and latter uses Fire coverage. Thus, I could see Kingambit being A. However, Tera (Flying, Ghost) fixes a lot of these matchups, so keeping it at A+ isn't something I wholeheartedly disagree with.

:Volcarona: -> A+

This thing is really broken right now. It can QD to win like older times, but it has very few checks to actually stop it. Since there's no Heatran in SV OU yet and Blissey is terrible, it gets away by running Will-o-wisp to cripple its already limited checks like Garchomp, Dragonite, Ting-Lu etc.. This makes sure it gets unbreakable on the physical side, coupled with Special Defense boosts from Quiver Dance. After a boost and a wisp to its check, it is guaranteed to win.

It can alternatively run Giga Drain to beat bulky waters like Dondozo. It can also Tera into any type it likes to beat any check (for e.g. Tera Fairy Terablast for Roaring Moon). You really don't know what it packs until it actually starts sweeping. We need Heatran back, or else it is a suspect candidate.

:Garchomp: -> A

Garchomp may not be as good as it was in gen 8 OU (No Scale Shot :( plus new grounds like Tusk and Ting Lu), but it is still better than what A- suggests. It is very versatile - on one hand, it can spam both Hazards with a Tank + Rocky Helmet set to maximize chip damage on opponents, especially Rapid Spinners like Tusk. On the other hand, it packs an unresisted Dragon-Ground-Fire coverage with great bulk. It can also run sets like Scarf, SD + Substitute with only STAB coverage since there are very few Fairies and Flying types in this meta. SD in particular seems to be making a comeback (preferably with substitute) to break obnoxious balance cores like Volcarona + Garganacl + Toxapex. Alternatively, It can also lure physical walls like Dondozo and smack them with Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor, and Fire Blast for Corviknight (this also lets it set hazards on Corviknight) so that other physical attackers like Kingambit can sweep late-game. Overall, it can do whatever your team wants.

:Glimmora: -> A

Glimmora needs to rise back to A, but not for its hazards set - it needs a raise because of its wall breaker sets. Like Garchomp, it can break the Volcarona-Garganacl-Toxapex core with a set of Power Gem, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Sludge Wave. With a special attack of 130, these moves can really sting hard. Even when it doesn't have any hazard moves, it does set Toxic Spikes automatically on contact, so it's still fulfilling Hazard duties. Besides, it can still go the old route of hazard stacking or removal (make sure that does only 1 of Stealth Rock, Spikes, Mortal Spin - it needs at least 3 attacks to be effective)

:Clodsire: -> B+/B

Clodsire only fits well on stall teams now - on balance you have better unaware mons like Dondozo (much better bulk and typing, plus less passive) and Skeledirge (way, way less passive - its offensive presence means that it fits on BO and HO as well if you build around it). You also have better ground types like Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, and Garchomp. That's it - its outclassed.
 
:Veluza: UR -> D

Veluza's unique combination of water STAB, incredible immediate boosting with Fillet Away, access to stored power, and mold breaker ability positions it to be a reasonable role player on certain shed tail hyper offense teams, and a great partner to Espathra. Many of the things that typically check Espathra such as Ting Lu and unaware walls fall to either tera water surf or mold breaker stored power.

Veluza @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 12 HP / 52 Def / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Fillet Away
- Surf
- Stored Power

Surf is used to beat Ting-Lu and Skeledirge (and, occassionally, mons that resist Psychic) immediately after clicking Fillet Away. Substitute allows you to set up on certain mons, such as Garganacl, as well as sub down to Petaya to get an extra boost to break past certain mons that would give you trouble otherwise. Speed EVs are enough to outspeed scarf rotom-wash at +2, and enough HP EVs to have an evenly divisible HP number for substitute.

:Ting-Lu: Ting-Lu: Veluza is almost always able to one shot Ting-Lu after a Fillet Away, oftentimes giving the opponent not enough time to switch in Ting-Lu and also click whirlwind before Ting-Lu dies. Given that Ting-Lu is maybe the single most reliable Espathra check right now, Espathra greatly appreciates a teammate which can consistently beat it.

Given how immediately Veluza is able to threaten Ting-Lu, Ting-Lu effectively needs to switch in on the shed tail turn, which can be taken advantage of by Orthworm's body press if you predict it. This is a case where simply having Veluza in your team preview forces Ting-Lu to play in a much more risky manner, as Espathra is much slower to get set up and threaten it.

+2 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Tera Water Veluza Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 512-604 (99.6 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

:Clodsire: :Dondozo: :Skeledirge: Unaware Walls: While unaware walls can fall to Espathra in the long term thanks to stored power's BP increase, they'll almost always effectively force it out before it's able to snowball to the degree necessary to beat them. Veluza is able to beat any of the 3 main unaware walls after a single turn of setup, which can help clear the way for Espathra to clean up the opponent's team. The Skeledirge matchup is more interesting than Dondozo, as +2 SpA Veluza needs to use a supereffective surf to kill Skeledirge; however, Dirge can obviously survive with Tera Fairy. If it does and hits back with a torch song through substitute, Veluza will survive in Petaya barry range and kill on the following turn. This matchup is less interesting if Veluza has already eaten its berry when Skeledirge comes in as Veluza can just click SP and kill as long as it's not tera psychich, steel, or dark. Similarly vs Clodsire, Veluza needs to use a supereffective move to guarantee the kill at +2, but Clodsire is too passive to effectively use the turn it can buy itself by terastilizing to save itself.

+2 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Tera Water Veluza Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 532-628 (129.4 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Tera Water Veluza Stored Power (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 441-519 (107.2 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Tera Water Veluza Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 504-594 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Kingambit: Kingambit: Kingambit's typing makes it very difficult for Espathra to beat consistently, and Veluza can oftentimes OHKO the standard Kingambit spread at +2. Even if it fails to OHKO, Kingambit is chipped enough to be defeated before a future Espathra sweep attempt. Veluza at +3 OHKOs even bulkier Kingambits consistently, with the opponent needing to invest heavily in both HP and SpD to have a chance to survive.

+2 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Tera Water Veluza Surf vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 350-414 (94.8 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Mold Breaker Tera Water Veluza Surf vs. 252 HP / 78 SpD Kingambit: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Teammates for Veluza:

As mentioned earlier, Veluza is not a mon that you should expect to sweep the entire team (though that does occassionally happen), but rather basically exists to help enable Espathra to sweep later on. It also benefits from similar support to Espathra, such as screens and Orthworm's slow shed tails. As a result, a lot of the teammates will look similar to common Espathra teammates, including Grimmsnarl, Orthworm, Kingambit, and Dragonite.

Replays:

All these replays were taken from 1500-1700 on ladder and demonstrated Veluza being used as a role player on an HO team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1784951494-222m9q1ahaktvvjg0synq44uhix7jtupw - Veluza defeats Skeledirge, Corviknight, and Greninja, paving the way for Kingambit and Espathra to clean up.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1774723200-ideh2qc8w7l5z9skxorsarvthfx3kv3pw - Veluza defeats Dondozo, causing the opponent's defensive core to fall apart and forcing a surrender

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1774726895-hx3ul8sjuhwptqn7bbxjwh68lo2m6kqpw - Veluza pulls off a complete sweep after setting up after receiving an Orthworm shed tail

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1777684621-jhvohz2004chlcllsigew5xnm0n3j7npw - Veluza breaks down the opponent's defensive core paving the way for Espathra to win the game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1774734676-dcu3df6uugx64gqp8g0i0yo4gtixf2apw - Veluza sweeps after Grimmsnarl and Orthworm chip down Ting-Lu.

Summary:

Veluza is a very niche pick, but one that serves a real role on OU Hyper Offense Teams. I believe the pokemon has serious unexplored potential on this style of team as demonstrated through the above analysis and replays, and should be ranked accordingly.
 
I think Gallade should be higher because psyco cut night slash and sacret sword ohko every mon in S and A+ tiar If dnite has become a normal type which it often does
in peactice it also is fine thou not A tier like in theory
 
RohAn Y said:
I think Gallade should be higher because psyco cut night slash and sacret sword ohko every mon in S and A+ tiar If dnite has become a normal type which it often does
in peactice it also is fine thou not A tier like in theory
On paper, this sounds awesome. In practice, it does not work. Gallade's mundane speed tier and bulk means that the Pokemon in S or A+ Tier can outpace it and put the hurt on it before it can do anything in reply. On top of that, you'd have to drop Night Slash for either Shadow Sneak or Swords Dance, which isn't something Gallade wants to do. Garganacal is a VERY common abuser of Terastalization, so chances are that Gallade will wind up doing minimal damage to it anyways. Gallade's too wanting for speed or bulk to warrant a higher rating.
 
Finchinator said:
PEX_VR_BANNER.png

art by ausma | VR concept credit goes to PK Gaming | run by Finchinator
​
Welcome to the first ever Scarlet and Violet Overused viability rankings!

In this thread, we, as a community, will be ranking every single justifiably usable Pokemon into "tiers" ranking their viability in the metagame. You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are viable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes, but the ultimate decision will be handled by OU Viability Rankings council vote during each slate of rankings -- more on this later.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Rotom-Wash can be ranked in the A- tier as a supportive presence, Iron Moth can be ranked in the A- as an offensive presence, and Skelridge can be ranked in the A- tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:
SV OU Viability Ranking Tier List

S Rank:

S Rank

:Chien-Pao: Chien-Pao
:Gholdengo: Gholdengo
:Great Tusk: Great Tusk

S- Rank

:Garganacl: Garganacl

A Rank:

A+ Rank

:Dragapult: Dragapult
:Dragonite: Dragonite
:Iron Valiant: Iron Valiant
:Kingambit: Kingambit

A Rank

:Cinderace: Cinderace
:Corviknight: Corviknight
:Dondozo: Dondozo
:Espathra: Espathra
:Hatterene: Hatterene
:Roaring Moon: Roaring Moon
:Rotom-Wash: Rotom-Wash
:Skeledirge: Skeledirge
:Ting Lu: Ting-Lu
:Toxapex: Toxapex
:Volcarona: Volcarona

A- Rank

:Amoonguss: Amoonguss
:Clodsire: Clodsire
:Garchomp: Garchomp
:Glimmora: Glimmora

B Rank:

B+ Rank

:Breloom: Breloom
:Iron Moth: Iron Moth
:Iron Treads: Iron Treads
:Meowscarada: Meowscarada
:Scizor: Scizor
:Slowking: Slowking

B Rank

:Azumarill: Azumarill
:Baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:Ceruledge: Ceruledge
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:Iron Hands: Iron Hands
:Quaquaval: Quaquaval
:Tauros-Paldea-Fire: Tauros-Paldea-Fire
:Torkoal: Torkoal

B- Rank

:Hydreigon: Hydreigon
:Orthworm: Orthworm
:Pawmot: Pawmot
:Pelipper: Pelipper
:Slither Wing: Slither Wing
:Tauros-Paldea-Water: Tauros-Paldea-Water

C Rank:

C+ Rank

:Floatzel: Floatzel
:Hawlucha: Hawlucha
:Sandy Shocks: Sandy Shocks
:Slowbro: Slowbro

C Rank

:Alomomola: Alomomola
:Barraskewda: Barraskewda
:Blissey: Blissey
:Charizard: Charizard
:Gallade: Gallade
:Gyarados: Gyarados
:Hippowdon: Hippowdon
:Iron Jugulis: Iron Jugulis
:Kilowattrel: Kilowattrel
:Magnezone: Magnezone
:Masquerain: Masquerain
:Quagsire: Quagsire
:Rotom-Heat: Rotom-Heat
:Scovillain: Scovillain
:Scream Tail: Scream Tail
:Toedscruel: Toedscruel
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar

D Rank:

D Rank

:Arcanine: Arcanine
:Avalugg: Avalugg
:Bellibolt: Bellibolt
:Chansey: Chansey
:Cloyster: Cloyster
:Ditto: Ditto
:Flamigo: Flamigo
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon
:Gengar: Gengar
:Haxorus: Haxorus
:Indeedee: Indeedee
:Iron Thorns: Iron Thorns
:Klefki: Klefki
:Lokix: Lokix
:Maushold: Maushold
:Mimikyu: Mimikyu
:Pincurchin: Pincurchin
:Polteageist: Polteageist
:Rabsca: Rabsca
:Salamence: Salamence
:Sylveon: Sylveon
:Talonflame: Talonflame
:Tinkaton: Tinkaton
:Umbreon: Umbreon

Rules - Updated as of 12/12/22
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted and potentially infracted if it is a repeat issue. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
  • Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
  • Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
  • Being OU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
  • When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the OU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an OU Moderator in this thread.
  • Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
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I am hoping for a productive discussion to take place in this thread throughout the generation. I am looking forward to seeing the metagame develop in front of our eyes; I find this to be a very cool prospect and it is one of the main reasons why I elect to run this thread. With this said, I am still only one person and our moderation team only consists of so many people, so try not to make our lives too hard here...post intelligently, lurk before commenting if you are new, and do not expect everything to be moderated super closely 24/7. We are all volunteering our time and effort to maintain threads like these, so we expect a certain degree of respect and understanding of this.
I think that staraptor should get a C+ ranking at least, because it hits a good part of the metagame quite hard, with tera fighting close combat and banded reckless brave bird and double edge. from hitting amoongus, great tusk, OHKOs physdef volcerona, along with being able to talk a banded bullet punch from LOrb Scizor then revenge killing it ( 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 187-222 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ) ( 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor: 331-391 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO ) along with being able to switch in on the banded flower tricks from meow. it also handles a few niche counters for chien pao like the paldean tauros as well as more prominent one like quaquaval. these reasons and more is why i think staraptor should be put in the viability ranking. the only prominent weaknessess i can think of at the moment, is how prominent stealth rocks are thanks to funni cheese string man. i hope you recieve this well
 
BrakeSeer said:
I think that staraptor should get a C+ ranking at least, because it hits a good part of the metagame quite hard, with tera fighting close combat and banded reckless brave bird and double edge. from hitting amoongus, great tusk, OHKOs physdef volcerona, along with being able to talk a banded bullet punch from LOrb Scizor then revenge killing it ( 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 187-222 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ) ( 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor: 331-391 (117.7 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO ) along with being able to switch in on the banded flower tricks from meow. it also handles a few niche counters for chien pao like the paldean tauros as well as more prominent one like quaquaval. these reasons and more is why i think staraptor should be put in the viability ranking. the only prominent weaknessess i can think of at the moment, is how prominent stealth rocks are thanks to funni cheese string man. i hope you recieve this well
Bestie you need replays to prove your points.

+it’s immense frailty, rocks weakness, and the fact that it’s killing itself with its stabs make it really hard to use. maybe it’s worth D rank, but C+ is over extending.
 
Noms:

:greninja: A+ - Greninja should be in A+. It has really good offensive utility thanks to its Speed + U-Turn, and it has a pretty flexible movepool with Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Rock Slide, Ice Beam, etc, and it's scarier when combined with Protean. Clearly a cut above the two other Protean/Libero Pokemon.

:garchomp: A- --> A - It's a really good entry hazards setter. Deters spinning thanks to Rough Skin, and can be combined with Rocky Helmet for a bigger punish. It can also Dragon Tail potential sweepers like Volcarona, which can be helpful. Clearly better than the rest of the A- Pokemon

:scizor: B+ --> A- - With Chien-Pao being a topic of discussion lately with the suspect test, Scizor should rise to A- if Chien stays in the tier. It's able to revenge kill both Chien-Pao and Tera Fairy Espathra with Bullet Punch, and can deal serious blows to other sweepers like Tera Flying Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant, and it becomes scarier with Band.
 
glimmora.png A- -> A
While straight hazard stack sets are less prominent than before, and arguably not quite as effective (though still quite good), the rising usage of wall breaking sets gives Glimmora more depth and flexibility in how it's used, making it less one dimensional/predictable. With the coverage it has, it can handily cover a wide range of common bulky pokemon, while still being able to lay down toxic spikes at minimum. The wall breaking sets in conjunction with existing hazard sets make it more deserving of A imo.

greninja.pngto A-/A
Honestly there's a distinct lack of fast special offense, outside scarf Ghold and Iron Valiant. Combined with it's excellent speed and offensive typing, Greninja is positioned to threaten common defensive structures very well. Specs sets are arguably the better set atm, and it's decently customizable. I've seen stabs+ice beam and U-turn, stabs+spikes and U-turn, four attack variants... It's a generally good, reliable pokemon that deserves at least A-.
 
:Greninja: UR --------> A

Its a special water type, we are low on those these days, it hits hard thanks to protean, it can break with specs and clean with scarf, forget U-turn and Spikes, Grass Knot is where the real money is, because it turns the tables on many heavyweight mons including public enemy 2 :Garganacl: and there are so few actual walls that you can just reel in, get a kill or heavy chip, and reel back out. Now, greninja does have a problem and that is the fact that he is literally paper against even neutral attacks, protean can somewhat alleviate this, but gren is frail, so to A rank it goes
 
hotdog.png said:
This is just a curious little question, but why is Blissey in C-tier and not anywhere lower?
Questions like this can go here after the initial 24h pass: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3710772/

But for the sake of your inquiry, it still provides a premium on the special defense end that validates certain bulky and stall cores. It’s very passive and mediocre overall, but we feel it’s best fit there for now alongside comparably viable options.
 
coral fan said:
i kinda took a break from SVOU for a few weeks so i dont have as much to say as i otherwise would, but quick thoughts based on my games in the past few days where ive played a few hours per day
  • S ranks are fine, I'd maybe promote Pult and Gambit to S- since they're about as viable as Garganacl and clearly a step above the other A+ mons imo. :dragapult: :kingambit:
  • A ranks are also mostly fine, I'd promote Garchomp to A (the same tier as Ting-Lu, since I think they're around the same level of viability and fufill similar roles as spikers+hazers+elec immunes, though Chomp matches up better vs all 3 OU electrics and Tusk, who he also chips with roughskin helmet if it spins on a chomp) and maybe demote Corv/Pex to A- since their use is mostly limited to balance rn. :garchomp: :corviknight: :toxapex:
  • I feel Breloom is too high in B+ for a mon that just doesn't match up well vs the current meta, Gholdengo is a pretty free switch, Pult and Dnite are the best dragons rn who both do great vs it, Spore immunities are common enough for it not to be guaranteed value, and its speed tier is just too low for it to excel rn imo. Overall I'd demote Breloom to B- :breloom:
  • Scizor isn't too great now it's lost Defog and Knock and, assuming Pao gets banned, its already-limited use as an offensive BP user will be lessened. Gholden and Gambit are by far the best steels and leave Scizor with a pretty small niche so I'd demote Scizor to B-, too. :scizor:
  • Azumarill is great in the current meta and I'd suggest for it to be promoted but since I'm expecting a Pao ban, I might not feel that way later on. Same goes with Quaquaval but it's probably fine in B either way. If Pao remains legal in SVOU, Azu should rise to B+. :azumarill:
  • I doubted them at first but Srn was right about Arboliva. I used it and it's crazy good. Vouching for their nomination to promote Arboliva from UR to B+. :arboliva:
  • Rain is great now, so I'd promote Pelipper to B and Golduck to C+, since it's on par with if not better than Floatzel imo, and should have risen alongside it, since Dondozo/Pex are continuing to rise in usage and Golduck gets progress vs them more quickly. :pelipper: :golduck:
  • Pawmot is a great, underlooked mon that's so far mostly been dismissed as a Revival Blessing gimmick mon. Grass Knot + Sash has worked great for me, since it can 2hko Tusk and 3hko Dozo, and can revive important teammates if you're about to lose to a setup sweeper. Very little resists Double Shock + CC (and Clod+Pult fear Ice Punch), and revived teammates count towards Supreme Overlord, making it a good partner to Kingambit, too. I think Pawmot's a pretty interesting, underexplored mon, and will take skill to master but for now i think a rise to B+ is a fair estimation of its viability ceiling, and the recent drop to B- doesn't accurately reflect that, imo. :pawmot:
  • Scovillain should be demoted from C to D or UR, it's a bad mon that struggles with most common Dragon and Fire types, and fire-spam sun is less good now Chi-Yu is gone. I know it's already dropped but C wasn't really far enough imo. :scovillain:
I haven't really gotten around to using or fighting many of the lower tier mons enough to have a strong opinion on them, and most other mons are ranked pretty accurately. Appreciate the council's work in providing and maintaining these resources & am hoping for a Pao suspect to start this weekend if the survey results are what I expect them to be (if they're live i haven't read them yet) :)

bonus minor spelling mistake in thread description
View attachment 487072
Señor Fuego...
I also agree that Golduck is at least on par with Floatzel if not better. Floatzel puts in work when the opponent only has one or two decent answers to rain, but Golduck can shred through teams with multiple good rain checks with just a little prediction.

Here is the set I’ve been using:

Golduck @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot

I found choice specs to be too prediction reliant and life orb to be best in order to maximize damage output and use Golduck as an early game wallbreaker for common rain checks. Grass Knot is for Dondozo (and Slowking) and Psychic hits Amoongus, Toxapex, as well as water-resistant neutral targets super hard when Tera’d at +2 (most notably 252hp Rotom-W is cleanly OHKO’d from full health). Even without nasty plot boosts Golduck still hits pretty hard and has no problem forcing switches to get off nasty plots when under rain.

I’d promote Golduck to C+ so the rankings adequately reflect it is on par with Floatzel as a rain abuser

Mandatory Replays
 
Srn said:
Been a while since I posted something substantial and I wanna share some metagame analysis! And then some noms (I've been cooking)

GREAT TUSK

Uuh Great tusk is on like 90% of serious teams fr (75% usage in SPL week 1). It's the only viable hazard removal on 90% of teams. Quaquaval can be spin blocked by dragapult/bulky gholdengo and hates giving up a moveslot for rapid spin. Iron treads is a sufficient spinner but lets in great tusk for free, and letting great tusk in for free is a massive flaw that otherwise viable pokemon have to wrestle with (tinkaton, iron hands, etc) Great tusk is just the best hazard removal and its not even close, and with how many good hazard setters we have, almost every team is gonna need some removal. You can say "just run boots bro" but boots spam is only an option on super defensive teams, offense needs some speed/power which is difficult to provide when everybody has boots on.

So now that I've briefly explained why great tusk is S rank and #1 usage, let's see what effect that has on the meta.

Offensive great tusk is a beast to try and switch into. Daddy Lando-t is not here to save us from ground/fighting 120 bp stabs combined with knock off. As far as soft checks go, we are pretty much stuck with washtom (and mowtom)/corv as your most common options. Water Tauros was raised to B- recently to reflect its ability to kind of soft check great tusk alongside kingambit/pao and I'm glad its getting that recognition too. Slowbro is also solid and rose appropriately. There are some other fringe options that barely avoid a 2hko like max defense gastro and slowking, but they're very shaky:

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(keeping leftovers in that calc bc gastro has sticky hold so lefties won't get knocked off)

I think this is reflected in the SPL usage stats, rotom-wash and corv had high usage at #4 and #6 respectively. So with that in mind, I've been testing some anti-meta techs to take advantage of the sparse few ground resists that teams are forced to carry to check the omnipresent great tusk.

Magnezone

Body Press
Magnezone @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 152 Def / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute / Volt Switch
- Body Press

Choice specs
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Steel Beam

I think the first set is a cool way to trap kingambit as well as the usual corv, although you lose out on a lot of initial power+ maybe volt turn action. First set's speed evs hits 200 to outpace adamant max speed kingambit/azu/iron hands. Magnezone naturally has great matchups vs lots of common fat mons like toxapex, garganacl, corviknight, dondozo, and hatterene. Cloak lets you become a garg check, but watch out for curse eq sets. Great tusk also has poor sdef, so the most common ground type doesn't wanna switch into your flash cannon.
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 216-255 (58.2 - 68.7%)
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 216-255 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The fatter grounds like clodsire and ting-lu will take on the first set more easily, but specs is strong and can punish even clodsire:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Steel Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 208-246 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Magnezone: 152-180 (54 - 64%)
Paired with some strong u-turn mons to take advantage of other special walls like blissey, you can form a real fat busting volturn core.

There's loads of mons that can take advantage of corviknight being trapped and eliminated: Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Scizor, and of course Great Tusk. I've used magnezone with cb dragonite and cb meow to decent success, and I think there's a lot of potential in some old zone classics. Here's a replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1771868095-7gjuz0ccgr1zmme7p1i0wjdvijp10qqpw
You can see in this replay that once Corviknight is trapped, tera normal cb dnite espeed claims everything else.

Of course, trapping kingambit isn't as easy but can also be done, and prominent ghost types like dragapult and gholdengo can flex even harder with gambit gone. I'll give an honorable mention to Magneton which can also trap corv while holding scarf and having a much better speed tier being able to revenge kill unboosted iron valiant and being faster than cinderace, but will struggle to do much vs kingambit and is much weaker in general. I would like it a lot more if it was faster than chien pao, but alas it hits only 393 and pao is at 405. I think magnezone's potential is high and its pretty unexplored rn, so I would support a rise to C+ at least. I think it belongs in B personally, but we can take baby steps with this one.

Now I'd like to show another under the radar great tusk check, much more solid than corv or rotoms:

Slither Wing

Defensive
Slither Wing @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Atk / 172 Def OR 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant / Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Close Combat / First Impression

This mon resists ground+fighting, has reliable recovery, can cripple with wisp and give a slow u-turn off of tusk. It is sturdy af vs even CB tusk, and does well vs other physical threats:
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%)
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 147-174 (39.3 - 46.5%) (0 allies fainted tbf)
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing: 174-205 (46.5 - 54.8%)
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Slither Wing on a critical hit: 114-135 (30.4 - 36%)

Chien pao's matchup is much shakier than the rest, but keep in mind your first impression will OHKO and thus force it out, allowing you to get a morning sun. If you choose to go close combat, the attack investment can 2hko sdef corv after rocks:
88+ Atk Slither Wing Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 189-223 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Personally I like first impression and max defense, I feel that slither wing should just focus on spreading burns and giving slow u-turns to your wallbreakers. Common mons like toxapex, skeledirge, volcarona etc will fully wall you even if you use CC. Tera Water is great for Fire Blast LO Chain chomps, Cinderaces, Rain threats, etc. I would rank it a little higher than Tauros-Water and bump it up to B to reflect its reliable recovery and wisp access over it.

So now that we've taken advantage of Corviknight and shown another solid ground check, let's take advantage of rotom-wash (and to a lesser extent rotom-mow)

ARBOLIVA

YES, ARBOLIVA
Violence (Arboliva) @ Leftovers
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power
- Giga Drain

I know this mon is unranked but seriously this thing is a hidden gem. I was blown away by how good it is in practice. First I'll explain why arboliva is anti-meta at all, then why this set is better than specs, and finally some replays.

The key here is the grass/normal typing. I was on the same page as everybody else at first that grass/normal typing isn't great, but I've come around on this recently. A grass type special attacker is very well positioned rn bc it can switch into rotom-w and not care about wisps. The only other viable special attacking grass types are amoongus and toedscruel, and toedscruel doesn't even resist hydro pump. Amoongus on the other hand is pretty passive outside of spore and hampered by the omnipresence of gholdengo. Arboliva is much less passive than either option, and is well positioned to punish rotom-w, garg, pex, ghosts and more.

The normal typing is important for obvious reasons: the ghost immunity is big in a meta where many top tiers like gholdengo and dragapult are spamming ghost moves. Of course, my biggest gripe with this was that it brought a fighting weakness. Whats the point of a ground resist that can't check great tusk? Unfortunately yeah, you do need to bring a more solid great tusk answer on your team. However, many great tusk have been dropping fighting stab in order to fit in stealth rock or bulk up. So if a great tusk carries earthquake/knock off/rapid spin/stealth rock or BU, arboliva can beat it easily.

Now why is Sub+3 attacks better than specs? A grassy terrain boosted leaf storm is very scary, but unfortunately there are lots of common and viable 4x grass resists all over the meta. Corv, volcarona, iron moth, amoongus, dragonite etc. Furthermore, many of the pokemon that arboliva takes advantage of such as rotom-w and garg often use protect, allowing specs to be easily scouted and its damage be minimized. Leaf Storm/earth power/tera blast (fire)/dazzling gleam is near impossible to wall but in practice it is slow, scouted, and easily revenge killed by chien pao, cinderace, iron valiant, iron moth etc. I didn't want sub+leech seed because I felt that arboliva needed at least 3 attacks to be a real threat, and in general I think subseed is better on faster mons. You want earth power to hit gholdengo without resorting to tera and skeledirge, and u want tera blast to threaten corvs/amoongs if needed. Don't forget that tera blast is normal and thus STAB before you tera, so it's excellent neutral coverage to hit amoongus, volcarona, dragonite and others. Grassy terrain+leftovers+giga drain gives u plenty of health to create subs with, and your base 39 speed tier is conveniently faster than the crowded 35 speed tier, naturally letting u get up subs on garg, pex, dondozo, and clodsire.

Finally, setting up grassy terrain is sweet. You naturally disrupt some dangerous psychic terrain/electric terrain teams, neutralize your teammate's weakness to eq, give extra recovery to your allies, and power up already strong grass moves like cb meowscarada flower trick. Grassy terrain+leftovers also negates salt cure chip damage, although you're still taking 14%~ from the attack itself. It does weaken your own eq's, but your great tusk can easily just run headlong rush so it's not a big deal. What other ground types are there anyway? :woo:

I got 5 high ladder replays to show you this mon is not a hoax, it plays a lot better than it seems:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780415337-8tilhvcqjrs2vxaymqb1ppotv1y7grkpw
Arboliva's ghost immunity+high natural spdef lets it comfortably handle dragapult and keep subs up vs toxapex. Seed sower+leftovers+giga drain gives tons of recovery, and the opposing team straight up folds. Arboliva was the MVP vs 1960.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780106828-oanfepcmy2p7juvho9j0iqdjsunj8sipw
I was able to pressure volcarona early with cb meow, but removing boots+keeping up rocks would've been enough. Arboliva was able to keep up with gholdengo and tera fire on specs pult's flamethrower+tank its draco naturally. CB meow uses grassy terrain to clean up in the end.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1779928356-iqhbw35nhwktc35de2zuz8mlie4rerjpw
Again, volcarona gets its boots knocked off and rocks are kept up, so it has trouble checking arboliva. It was able to get up a sub vs garg, and you can see how tera blast put in work even before using tera. EQ+espeed dnite can't set up as tera blast does a solid 45%~ back to pressure roosts. Once volc and dnite go down, tusk+garg+gholdengo lose to arboliva, and Im carried up to 1930.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1779332890-b9xvieh5nqinoguve5eco7yw28dl6frpw
I was able to push through volcarona by using tera fire on kingambit, leaving arboliva to beat garg+dnite+clodsire in the end. Again, dd+roost+eq+espeed dnite doesn't beat you 1v1.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1780052322-2ouo6dsvp4g6jxhu5n4usw1hzz9kxzxpw
Here's one from my good pal Pinkacross, the olive just gets in vs garg and the opposing team in 1900s gets dismantled. Keep in mind that tera fire would've dunked on the opposing skeledirge but arboliva's natural spdef + ep means it wasn't necessary.

Unfortunately that team is a bit too weak to chien pao so I've tilted, but I got plenty of evidence while I was high up. I peaked at 1941 and Pinka peaked at 1978. With these replays and its commanding performance in mind, I have moved beyond baby steps. It is time for big boy steps.
Arboliva should go UR --> B+ This is not a drill go back and watch those replays.
It is a bit weird to teambuild with (hint: skeledirge is an amazing partner), but its strengths and anti-meta properties are on par with mons like scizor and meowscarada. It is not as influential as mons like glimmora or clodsire, so I don't think it's quite A-. Hopefully our high ladder replays have shown its very real niche.

the arboliva set is great!

just made a quick team with it, and first game in, it’s pulling heavy weight

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1788487200-b6o8mizvcp48vlwzmke05irmt9kykkepw

I think it’s a sufficient nomination in the Garg meta. I used pivot slowking with it to easily set a sub and completely nullify Garg.

generally speaking, Tera fire is really good on so many things right now.

edit: after a few games with it: arboliva is definitely not a meme. It just fits into the same category as slowking: a slow Pokémon that is weak to one of Chien Pao’s STABs, and therefore needs very sturdy support so it doesn’t forfeit a KO every time a Chien Pao is doubled in. The uncommon fighting STAB on great tusk is also a big problem.

it matches up decently vs multiple offensive Pokémon too, here’s a 1900s game against a terrain team where her terrain barely got used

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1788590809-ptzsa0up5a4e7mo1mkk49h8u07nss67pw

had about 12 games so far whilst over 1900 and it’s been a little hit or miss. Matches slow king in viability I reckon. It will definitely improve when CP goes

-

Edit 2:

I take back what I said about Arboliva against CP, it’s forced out but it’s not useless, this thing was made for Tera fire and tusk is by far its best partner. Here is a game against offense with MVP arboliva to watch:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1788705088-9hnwa6p3acmm6sbw2vmb93w0navpji4pw

understandably, the opponent had a fresh team so probably needed to learn its quirks, and it’s a 1700s game (although this Arboliva has stayed about 1900s Elo -1975 after that game - over a LOT of games and it’s been useful in most games, so that’s definitely a sign it’s pulling heavy weight), however it’s still worth watching to see how potent Arboliva is at forcing an opponent to sack something once the matchup is in your favor. The bulk is surprisingly good too!!

disclaimer: I do not intend to be misleading, this team and it’s minor variations is staying above 1900 Elo mostly because of decent OU spread + great tusk, which is by far and away the most useful Pokémon in OU. I’m just shocked by how well Arboliva has worked with it, and it contributes value in a lot of games

edit 3:

here’s an example of how hit or miss arboliva is:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1789574020-tjdvbdmv2vbyy1cszzf04s2cgantpb8pw

Unfortunately I lost the game on stupid predictions about when the toedscruel was going to spore (it never did), so instead of sleeping, skeledirge got KOd. Also, the turn that I used an attacking move instead of substitute against the garganacl, was a big mistake. Didn’t get to keep the catch 22 pressure on the opponent until he sacked something. Finally the stupid hubris on the turn I kept slowking in on chien pao, trying to cripple it, is the turn it used Tera dark to KO

it goes to show arboliva is frustrating against people who have learned it’s standard set, there’s lots of counter play options. In that case it was PP stalling the Terablast, and then trying to predict a good switchin opportunity, so the Arboliva Tera was completely wasted.

finally capitalizing on the misplays, as I’m not used to toedactual and it’s sets and, in hindsight, switches in and out of it far too many times

edit 4:

Try metronome over leftovers
 
Last edited:
VR is good for the most part, just a couple of my personal Noms :

:Garchomp: -> A

Garchomp may not be as good as it was in gen 8 OU (No Scale Shot :( plus new grounds like Tusk and Ting Lu), but it is still better than what A- suggests. It is very versatile - on one hand, it can spam both Hazards with a Tank + Rocky Helmet set to maximize chip damage on opponents, especially Rapid Spinners like Tusk. On the other hand, it packs an unresisted Dragon-Ground-Fire coverage with great bulk. It can also run sets like Scarf, SD + Substitute with only STAB coverage since there are very few Fairies and Flying types in this meta. SD in particular seems to be making a comeback (preferably with substitute) to break obnoxious balance cores like Volcarona + Garganacl + Toxapex. Alternatively, It can also lure physical walls like Dondozo and smack them with Life Orb boosted Draco Meteor, and Fire Blast for Corviknight (this also lets it set hazards on Corviknight) so that other physical attackers like Kingambit can sweep late-game. Overall, it can do whatever your team wants.



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Echoing this mon for a rise, underrated SD set due to magnet pull being less used which beats Corv and chunks Dozo unless it teras, making it week to something else.
252 Atk Tera Ground Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 436-516 (106 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO beats spdef dirge
252 Atk Tera Ground Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 316-372 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and beats dirge if it's chipped or chomp is behind a sub.
Utility chomp also hasn't fell of and chain chomp is a threat. The set variety is enough for A or higher in my opinion
 
:gastrodon: D -> C
This is a rather cautionary nom that I'm only making because this thing has a niche of being a guaranteed counter to scarf ghold, but not much of anything else in all honesty. It'll beat greninja not locked into hydro pump I guess, it stonewalls scarf washtom, which isn't very common overall, beats iron moths lacking energy ball though I don't think that mon is doing too hot rn personally, and hatterene I suppose, though it does take an uncomfortable amount of damage from an unboosted psyshock.

It isn't amazing, but it stonewalls scarf gholdengo as long as the bastard doesn't tera, and I think that's a valuable niche, as you can run it with faster ghost types such as dragapult to either wall gholdengo entirely, or scare it out with your own ghost type, as if ghold can break through gastro, it can't outspeed pult.
 
That_Dwayneee said:
:gastrodon: D -> C
This is a rather cautionary nom that I'm only making because this thing has a niche of being a guaranteed counter to scarf ghold, but not much of anything else in all honesty. It'll beat greninja not locked into hydro pump I guess, it stonewalls scarf washtom, which isn't very common overall, beats iron moths lacking energy ball though I don't think that mon is doing too hot rn personally, and hatterene I suppose, though it does take an uncomfortable amount of damage from an unboosted psyshock.

It isn't amazing, but it stonewalls scarf gholdengo as long as the bastard doesn't tera, and I think that's a valuable niche, as you can run it with faster ghost types such as dragapult to either wall gholdengo entirely, or scare it out with your own ghost type, as if ghold can break through gastro, it can't outspeed pult.
Honestly, with how well Gastro has been working for me, I feel like C+ or B would be a good spot for it. It stone walls non-Hex Washtom, deletes Dengo, sits on Garg all day, makes Expert Belt/Specs/Scarf Special Valiant sad, and beats most variants of Skeledirge 1v1.
 
SpritePony said:
Honestly, with how well Gastro has been working for me, I feel like C+ or B would be a good spot for it. It stone walls non-Hex Washtom, deletes Dengo, sits on Garg all day, makes Expert Belt/Specs/Scarf Special Valiant sad, and beats most variants of Skeledirge 1v1.
I feel the need to mention that I was referring to sticky hold gastrodon rather than storm drain
 
SpritePony said:
Honestly, with how well Gastro has been working for me, I feel like C+ or B would be a good spot for it. It stone walls non-Hex Washtom, deletes Dengo, sits on Garg all day, makes Expert Belt/Specs/Scarf Special Valiant sad, and beats most variants of Skeledirge 1v1.
Wouldn't it have to run covert cloak for Garg? Or are you saying it should be running it
 
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