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I honestly adore mentioning all these offensive checks and 8 of them are ohkod by thunder wave, or lose to cm variants when the mon who's job it is to come in first comes in first aside from trick zoro / gengar who again, cant come in safely.
Not going to mention anything else from this post besides these parts as part as Feli did an excellent job of showing how flimsy these arguments are, but I'll specifically mention the part of "by no means as broken as the rest of RUBL were" That's the point. The entire point is banning the most broken elements first, of course slowbro won't be as broken as hydreigon or comfey thats why they got nuked first. The most basic rule of tiering is not voting based on what your personal metric of "too much" is based off of whats already gone. Imagine if OU voters voted dnb on baxcalibur because it isnt as broken as annihilape, that logic is both flawed and counterintuitive.
Moving on to discussion thats productive so i'm not beating a horse so dead it makes BDSP look like a carnival, I'll move on to discussing the prospects of a next slate. Personally, I don't find the next suspect candidates particularly urgent, so we can take our time pumping a survey out to gauge thoughts on 5 pokemon mentioned from previous survey.
All 5 of these either were present on the previous slate, or received noteworthy mention in the extras section for action to be taken on them. While under normal circumstances, I'd argue to swing on Slowbro I've seen multiple dissenting opinions on what should be struck first, and I think a slate would be a good way to gauge this. Strictly personally, I'd wager against going for slowbro first, and find blastoise revavroom or okidogi as more tantalizing targets. Slowbro is oppressive and stupid for many reasons, but those 3 are more glaring issues in my eyes. Jirachi is here because it got mentioned enough to be noted in the others section, and I look forward to seeing it get the 2 i think it deserves. Reuniclus is excluded as i've seen practically zero support for it after the cope of the CM psychics exploding in the early weeks of RUPL, but I've seen enough Jirachi support/hatred to justify it's inclusion. I would like to see a suspect commence and conclude before the end of the month though, as while the projected shifts aren't expected to give us anything too obscene, I'd rather strike while the iron is hot.
Dogi feels like the biggest offender of these mons, as frustrating as jirachi, revavroom, blastoise, and yanmega are. Dogi is extremely hard to account for at the moment and just kind of feels like too good of a breaker with its bulk up sets and choiced sets alike and just unlike the others mentioned just feels like a more clear cut case of being too strong rather than being cheesy like the others mentioned.
I think discussions of whether Slowbro is "broken" or not completely miss the point that it exerts a stupid and unhealthy amount of pressure on the tier.
Yes, there are certainly answers that can deal with and abuse Bro, but as MC pointed out above, where it becomes problematic is its ability to neuter checks for both itself and its teammates via status spam over the course of the match. Most of the special attackers that can answer Bro get screwed by paralysis, while physical attackers that deal with Bro's teammates are afraid of getting burned by stupid ass Scald. Bro can spread burns and paralysis with relative impunity and then heal off any damage it takes simply by switching out or with Slack Off. Amoonguss is kinda similar in this role (minus the burns), but where the two differ is that Amoonguss is extremely passive and cannot also be CM setup sweeper if it wants to. Slowbro's typing, ability and fatness give it ample opportunity to either set up and/or spread status in a way that other mons can't, which make it a nightmare to play around.
Alright survey responses: got a 6: I don't think its broken but Shell Smash cheese isn't fun to deal with also got a 6 but mostly because of the same reasons because it is a terrifying sweeper that can feel admittedly cheesy as well if you team doesn't do well into it got a 7 because well this thing is fat and annoying and not the healthiest thing but also I don't think action is super urgent despite it promoting some not so healthy dynamics its not quite at that level for me yet got a 7 as well, mostly for the serene grace flinching antics that I feel could push it over the edge, but to me doesn't feel urgent at the moment with a certain nuclear doggo running around... got a 10, this mon just has no switch ins, and it feels like every game you have to sack mons to it due to how hard it is to account for what it can slot into its bulk up sets like taunt to stop opposing setup and other coverage options and the tera antics that follow, choice band sets are also a bit too strong as well, even 2hkoing the likes of the RU defensive slowbro set via knock off and 2hkoing defensive moltres via gunk shot. I think this thing needs action, because ever since we got the OP psychic types out of here like and this thing has become a little too dominant for my liking and definitely isn't healthy at all if it can 2hko the likes of and "Slowbro: (Who is already controversial lmao) with its choice band sets. Mon just feels like it is too much for a lot of teams to account for and definitely is not healthy in the slightest for a lot of teams to have to sack something or multiple mons to banded or bulk up boosted dogi every game.
I don't have super strong feelings about the other mons but I do think Dogi definitely stands out with the results it has been putting out in tournaments and how it just feels like you can't really truly defensively answer it, because even stuff like slowbro and moltres can lose their item or get 2hko by gunk or knock off. Dogi just feels too good, where with the other mons i'm not super sure they are broken, despite me not liking their presences.
I am the resident one-trick pony spamming one Wish-Turn Vaporeon team. You might know me from insta-forfeiting vs Psychic-Noise. I type on these 5 from personal experience with that one team, and that team does not showcase any of these pokemon.
King. This doge is difficult to face for me whose main Phys Def pokemon is Chesnaught. It is a good pokemon. What makes it good is its longevity and power in one. Sweeper sets typically run set up move like Bulk Up, Health draining move Drain Punch, 100+ BP move like Gunk Shot, and coverage in fourth slot (but its always Knock Off). This is good strong set of moves that scales its power, heals its HP, and nukes an opponent in 3 slots, allowing flexibility in a fourth.
Some weaknesses, typing. Okidogi is 4x weak to Psychic, giving it the profile of most Dragon-Types that are very powerful with a fatal flaw of being 4x weak to ice. Unfortunately there is no psychic ice shard, and because of that, revenge killers need to be faster. Given its base 80 speed, that is a reasonable request. Its ability Guard Dog further supports is set-up power by giving in phazing immunity, meaning you gotta beat it or eat it. Terastalization comes into play here because, as the Okidogi trainer knows it can't be phazed out, and they know that it poses an immediate threat, Tera-typing into something favorable is a very safe play. Because of terastalization, typing is less of a weakness.
Another weakness is of course special defense. It naturally lies at 86, which isn't low, but is a target point for other breakers in the tier, and this lop-sided stat makes sure Terastalizing isn't a fool-proof panic button.
Okidogi can also run other sets like Choice Band, or All-Out-Attacker, although they are rarer. With the reputation of the Set-up sets, these alternative sets can catch opponents off guard because they expect one thing and pivot to their "answer," only to get smacked by a Choice Band Gunk Shot/Close Combat/Knock Off/Other move.
Okidogi is a powerful pokemon, and is made even more powerful by the state of the RU tier's lack of good ground types. One good check I can think of is Colbur Palossand. It is one of the few ground types that hits on the special side, and resists both stabs. Knock Off is the most threatening move against it, and it fires back on the weaker Special Defense stat with a STAB Earth Power. If it forces a Tera, it is likely forced to the countermeasure for Psychic-Type Attacks, rather than ground.
Big Stoise comes in and demands attention. This is another pokemon whose set-up sets people have a problem with. In my experience, Blastoise runs Shell Smash/Water Move/Coverage Move/Tera Blast. The item isn't always White Herb, and I think White Herb is a mistake anyway. This things Shell Smash sets are meant to sweep and/or deal big damage. As a water type it is not weak to any priority (in the tier), and it can often survive with the -1 in both defenses so long as it outspeed the opponents team.
Although strong, it is not an instant win. Blastoise operates, in my opinion, as a great cleaner that can finish a game after some work has been done to weaken the opponents team. This work comes in the form of hazards to break Focus Sashes, Bulky mons weakened within range of coverage moves, scouting for atypical sets. Blastoise should also be positioned in front of an opponent that poses no immediate threat, or is very passive. Otherwise, strong attack + priority usually stops a sweep before it ever starts.
Assault Vest is also a great item, however Shell Smash boosts both offenses, so it is not the Flex Tape for a team's Shell Smash weaknesses. Maybe action should be taken before people start flinch-spamming with Waterfall.
I often handle this thing with offensive pivoting to Vaporeon, which takes 1 of anything and can phaze it out. This thing is dangerous and doesn't need a ton of support to operate well, but it isn't a braindead button-clicker. My team comp can handle it well enough.
I hate this clown. +1 Gunk hits so hard, and Iron Head is the most annoying move on a +2 Speed pokemon. And again, physical attacker with poison coverage, so Chesnaught loses. This is a similar mon to Blastoise, however I have more of a problem with it because again, I spam the same team that has a weakness to this thing. It differs from Blastoise by having no defensive drawback other than the 4x ground weakness from its typing.
I don't think Revavroom does much else in this tier than serve a sweeping threat. It is again very similar to blastoise in that its alternative moves like Rapid Spin are vastly overshadowed by the power of its main set (and by Cyclizar doing it better).
This is the third mon in a row that is a set-up mon, and I think the tier as a whole needs to handle set-up threats better. Off the top of my head Hippowdon is a great answer to this thing, resisting the power STAB and probably shrugging off +1 Iron Heads. Rev usually runs balloon, but Whirlwind doesn't care, and U-Turn can pop the Air Balloon later.
High Horsepower is most commonly the 4th slot on this thing. Otherwise Magnezone would be the premier answer. This thing in combination with Blastoise are like a Yin and Yang combination. The pair are very strong, because I don't think the checks for Blastoise cover the checks for Revavroom. Rev is often a one-trick pony in its movepool, and with proper planning someone could build a strong offensive core where Blastoise covers that Revavroom doesn't.
This thing with Tera Ground vs Magnezone makes Terastalizing feel like Sucker Punch mindgames. Throat Spray or Specs, either are very powerful Special Breaking sets. Although, pretty sure Chansey just sits on this clown. More often than not this thing is used naively, and players have burned Tera early. Its frail, but a fantastic cleaner. If Yanmega is in the back, and Terastalization is still available for the opponent, I always gotta keep it in mind. This is the case with a lot of threats though.
I typically have Lycanroc, and threaten Accelerock. Yanmega players can either Protect if not sash, or Tera Blast Ground if specs, or something like that, depending on the state of the match and their strategy. Throat Spray sets are nice because you just gotta deal with it once and force a switch/phaze it. It does deal a ton of damage in that turn, and then it boosts speed to require priority to revenge kill, or a tank with enough power to KO it back.
I'm actually happy for Yanmega. It's proving you don't need Heavy Duty Boots just because you're 4x weak to rocks. Though by the mere existence of Stealth Rock, I think Yanmega is always going to be manageable in RU.
This thing is very healthy for the tier. It does a handful of things well, and none of these things are overbearing. Its like a creativity outlet with good defensive typing. I'm surprised it came up at all in suspect discussions.
In my experience, the unpredictability is the worst part, because that Meteor Beam era was scary. But other than that, it is a good rocker than doesn't care about most common spinners in the tier. Gives Forretress a path to viability. I usually try to get a leech seed off and chip it down over time. If Jirachi had reliable recovery I'd be worried, but at the moment all I see are utility Wish-Pass-Rocks, or Body Slam Iron Head sets. There are too many good physical walls in the tier to ever be worried about Scarf Iron Head, or maybe my team comp just doesn't care about that set.
Good mon, please keep
I never see this thing so I have no comments. I could speculate from the discussions above, but I wouldn't be adding anything of substance.
So after finally putting down The Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown, for more than five minutes, I decided to do the RU Survey. So here is what I put down that nobody wanted to know lmao.
Enjoyablity/Competitivness: 7
Found this tier to be quite good, though of course there are aspects that should be improved, which I will get into later.
3 (this section is going to be long, since slowbro is contentious)
I'm in the camp of "this thing isn't broken". Is slowbro annoying? Absolutely. But idk, it doesn't really feel broken. A lot of top mons, such as gengar, bisharp, horoark, basc-f and krook all threaten it, while others such as rhyperior, terrakion and okidogi can either tech on moves to destroy slowbro (like rhyperior and terrakion) or have moves that it doesn't want to switch into they normally just have (such as okidogi). One could say "Well, they are having to use these moves specifically for slowbro" and while sometimes that is the case, these aren't too dead of a slot with reun also being a good mon (though not broken). If you do tech these moves on, then slowbro is much easier to deal with. None of these really like switching into slowbro, but slowbro doesn't like switching into them. There of course is tera, which slowbro can abuse, but tera fairy makes it weak to okidogi, cobalion and jirachi, while tera poison makes it weak to opposing psychics and the ground types. Combine this with hazard pressure (slowbro usually switches into knock off), and its easier to deal with. Despite all this, slowbro is still a great mon, but I don't think its broken. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
10
Blastoise is broken. The only counterplay to it is OHKO it before it shell smashes, which is difficult to do since you need to position yourself carefully and due to its bulk it can survive most hits that are not super effective and strong, hit it with a really powerful move before it kos your mon than revenge kill it with prioriy, which is limited to bisharp, sither wing, breloom and conk, or phaze it out when it smashes. These are all very unreliable and a good player will position the toise in order to avoid these scenarios, which isn't that hard. Once it smashes, its ggs. Seriously, get this thing out of here. It is just a bs presence that forces team constraint.
6
Revavroom is an annoying mon that I wouldn't mind seeing gone, but I don't know if its broken. Once it gets a boost off its very powerful, but it can be revenge killed by a few of the bulkier mons in the tier and multiple mons threaten it for big damage as it sets up. It's like a healthier version of toise, which isn't saying much but I wouldn't say ban it yet. If we ban toise and this thing shows that it is a problem, than of course ban it.
2
Yeah, this isn't it chief. Okidogi I think is the definition of a good mon. Great wincon, with the ability to screw over defensive mons with knock off and poison, and amazing power, but not broken. Slowbro, armarouge and reun all force it to tera, as they can take a hit (armarouge outspeeds) and ko it back with a psychic move. It doesn't like getting statused at all and while the CB set is powerful, it also has not the most spammable stabs, as letting in jirachi/cobalion/bisharp or gengar/basc-f/horoark for free if it locks itself into a move isn't good. It also has quite a bit of 4mss (this is for the bu sets, the scarf and band sets don't have this issue). It wants all of bu, stabs, knock, psychic fangs and taunt, and not having one can really screw it over in the wrong matchup. Again, just a good mon, and hates that psychic types are better in this meta.
2
Again, definition of a good mon. Many pokemon tech tera electric, and people say its the main culprit, but tera electric also does well into the electrics, so it isn't the worst thing in the world. The paraflinch sets are annoying, but dealable. Idk how much more I can say, its just a good mon and I think that it shouldn't be banned at all.
I know this is probably me just being bad, but gengar feels really annoying to deal with in this meta. It has a really good speed stat, with a wide movepool to abuse. Options like knock off, encore, destiny bond, t-spikes and taunt are all utility options which it can use. This is just with the np/hex sets. Trick is annoying for any mon if it uses the scarf set, and its coverage is quite deep with energy ball, t-bolt, d-gleam, psychic noise and f-blast all being viable options. I've even experimented with air balloon sets which work wonderfully alongside encore to punish ground types, which should check it, even krook can't do anything. I think this mon needs to have an eye kept on it, it could easily break the metagame open if it wanted to.
I also just want to drop my quick thoughts on the survey:
I'm p sure I said that I don't find the RU meta enjoyable or competitive at the moment, but it's mostly because of how all over the place HO is. I tried laddering the other day during a meeting and I got an electric and a grassy terrain team at the same time, then classic Kleavor HO teams back to back to back. To me that is a sign that just loading 5 set up mons and hoping for the best is commonly viewed as the best plan, which already indicates a non-competitive state for tier in my eyes.
With this being said, I also posted that I don't find either Blastoise or Revavroom to be that annoying to handle. It might be just the amount of experience I have, that playing vs HO is usually just following a sequence for the common set up mons, and those HOs that load up a random 6th set up mon are those that actually feel annoying to beat.
These are the common 5 mons I see over and over on the good basic HO structure. Swapping a Maushold for like an Armarouge usually means I have to play more carefully against the special attackers like Yanmega and Blastoise to not get my wall broken before I can answer all of them. This is what I mean when I say that a random last mon is what throws around how you play against HO.
Where am I going with this? That HO at the moment has even more annoying options than when Iron Leaves was around occupying a slot on these teams, so that makes handling HO a more volatile task. One of the HO mons will probably have to go to nerf the playstyle a bit, but I don't even know which one I'd support leaving. I still stand that neither Blastoise or Rev are the targets here but who knows.
I 100% agree with the post above on these 3. They just provide with unique offensive and defensive options that handle lazy and passive teams. I already went into detail on Slowbro, but I will add that it's a very necessary presence in this tier, especially with so many breakers around. Okidogi is great at breaking lazy, fat and slow teams. The main issue here is item removal and Toxic Chain, when something like a Covert Cloak is usually enough to handle Jirachi and Fezandipiti and the secondary effects they have. I've never really been swept by an Okidogi, but I know I have swept with it, so I can understand the sentiment. I still believe that it's just a very needed noob killer vs BO and Balance. Jirachi is just an amazing utility mon to have, in both typing, coverage and what you can do with it. It gives a different layout of preparation ingame and makes games less linear if you kinda need to guess the set. It's not immediately threatening if it's an offensive set. The only argument I can see here is people getting tired of Serence Grace flinshes but like, we have options vs that. Flame Body, Covert Cloak, Regenerator spam, even Bellibolt Static (I want to mention Umbreon here cause I think it still has value vs HO if phys def and vs Slowbro thanks to Toxic). The issue is if you get lured by Meteor Beam or a different set, but come on, did nobody play SM where luring stuff with Z moves and playing around those was the standard? If you actually think of how not to get lured by it then it's not too hard unless you have a very passive team. This isn't a case of broken checks broken, but without Jirachi there would be too many mons that would completely break the tier again, so banning a mon that doesn't even feel broken to begin with would be regrettable.
Just a random post, I didn't offer any solutions but I thought that I should at least defend these last 3 mons that add a layer of gameplay to what otherwise would be a very linear and boring tier to play.
Blastoise is broken, puts insane pressure in the builder AND in-game and is always a handful of chip damage away from being unstoppable (esp if you don't have Tera to handle it). All 3 of these mons makes HO an extremely non-interactive low-skill playstyle that also has easy ways of fishing for haxx thanks to Iron Head Revavroom / Air Slash Yanmega. Please make something happen.
Again I reiterate, it is not that I think dogi is broken because it rolls over the tier, I find it broken because the amount of defensive answers is super duper limited and it feels really difficult to switch around the combination of CC/Knock Off/Gunk Shot and or poison jab with whatever filler move it slots in its 4th slot. I think it is broken because it has very limited defensive answers to actually be able to deal with it, and I feel as if it does limit teambuilding for fatter teams since the answers that these fatter teams have to it are super limited, especially against choiced sets. It is not that it is a good sweeper necessarily, I find it broken because it feels too good against fatter teams and kind of limits them in a way that isn't really healthy, I mean when banded sets can score 2hkos on the likes of slowbro, cobalion, jirachi, and moltres who are known to be defensive titans of the RU metagame, I think it shows that it is too good at trading kills and just breaking holes in these fatter teams.
Also 4mss doesn't feel like an issue, because even if you don't have the coverage you need, the 4th slot is super flexible since CC/Drain punch, Gunk/Poison Jab, and Knock Off are enough to cripple and smash giant holes into fat teams and cripple things in most cases.
To conclude, I think dogi is broken for being too good of a breaker not that it is too good of a sweeper that has pretty limited defensive switchins, and personally I think it should be the one to get action as with it gone we could see fatter teams become a whole lot better and that could potentially help keep the likes of Blastoise and Revavroom from being cheap and could keep them in line, as Dogi does invalidate a lot of defensive pokemon that could be helpful as Blastoise/Revavroom checks
I propose a Zarude unban. He is checked by , just to mention a few, and would give bring a healthy check for Pokemon such as Slowbro, Reuniclus and Blastoise.
I propose a Zarude unban. He is checked by , just to mention a few, and would give bring a healthy check for Pokemon such as Slowbro, Reuniclus and Blastoise.
I propose a Zarude unban. He is checked by , just to mention a few, and would give bring a healthy check for Pokemon such as Slowbro, Reuniclus and Blastoise.
Doesn't the tera poison BU jungle healing set beat all of these?
like moltres aint doing much, Cobalion has to deal with Drain Punch & Koff, Fezendipiti does well but kinda become setup fodder, Revavroom has to not switch in to actually work, Mimikyu just does the disguise red card and not much else, Slither Wing at least is fine, Gapdos, does ok, Salamence does ok into Zarude, and Okidogi wins the BU war in the end.
Not really the most fun thing to do, and another factor about Zarude's ban was that you could easily handle it's bad matchups with its teammates. A moltres, Glowbro, and Mimikyu alongside the Zarude would render its bad matchups pretty much moot. I don't want Zarude meta 2.
Yes, this unevolved PU mon is doing better in tournament than half of the tier and he's underrated. Can you believe it?
Cool abilities wow: Hyper Cutter, Immunity He has moves: Earthquake, Knock Off, U-turn, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Toxic, Taunt, Tailwind lol
Example set:
Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Toxic
- What does he do?
Act as a physical sponge, hazard setter, poison spreader and pivot in Offense teams. Is immune to both Ground and Electric. It beats all the fat Grounds in the tier such as Rhyperior, Hippowdon, Palossand, and Quagsire thanks to Toxic. It is a general switch-in to many top tiers like Okidogi, Krookodile, and Zapdos-G that are otherwise extremely difficult to respond to defensively. Then, it can pivot to a teammate with U-turn, set any hazard you want, or simply click Toxic on fools like Slowbro, KOing it on the spot.
- Give me cores I can try!!! / /
Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Toxic
Cyclizar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 104 HP / 152 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail
Pretty basic defensive/support base for a Bulky Offense team. Run these 3 + 3 random offense mons you like and have fun. (make sure to have something for Fezan lol)
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Slam
- Iron Head
- Encore
Cyclizar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 104 HP / 152 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail
Same deal as the previous one but answers different matchups. Jirachi makes it so you don't autolose to Fezan and Tera Poison CM bozos if you aren't careful. You can go the hazard stacking route and have a Ghost somewhere or replace Stealth Rock on Jirachi with Wish or U-turn.
Enamorus-Therian was still in the tier when Zarude was allowed, it only acted as a short term check as after losing it's Heavy Duty Boots, it would get chipped while Zarude could stay healthy via Drain Punch or Jungle Healing or the combination of both.
we could unban Comfey, Enam-T, Iron Jugulis, Hydregion (for fun) just to balance out Zarude's unban and the ape would STILL be top of the tier lists and winning, the only reasonable option is to never let the guy near the tier again
Hi, I am once again animated by the will to not let this forum die and to show random lower tier mon who can actually do things in here.
Today's contestant is Diancie.
DO IT FOR HER
I like stats: 50/100/150/100/150/50 Cool Moves: Calm Mind, Iron Defense, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Encore, Draining Kiss, Moonblast, Diamond Storm, Earth Power, Power Gem, Light Screen, Reflect, Meteor Beam, Stored Power, Rock Polish, Trick Room, Misty Explosion Cool Rocks Facts: Did you know that rocks somehow get a 50% SpDef boost under Sandstorm? Cooler Rocks Facts: Did you know that one of RU's best Pokemon and premier wall has Sand Stream?
so, why use the no recovery having, slow defensive rock-type unmon? Well, she does have a few traits that stand out:
She DESTROYS every single hazard control in the tier (Cyclizar, Noivern, Maushold, Talonflame, Conkeldurr, H-Lilligant) while having both Stealth Rock AND Spikes
She synergizes well with Hippowdon, which gives her a 50% SpDef boost while helping in dealing passive damage through Sandstorm
High-powered mixed STABs in Diamond Storm and Moonblast backed up by 100 base in both attacks is no slouch even uninvested
Encore is broken
Just look at how many sets she can run
These traits make Diancie a formidable Spikes setter that will guarantee that they'll stay on the field consistently.
High Special Defense and the ability to boost it further with Hippowdon's Sandstorm makes her able to tank many special attackers like Gardevoir, Gengar, Horoark, Thundurus, Moltres, or Yanmega for a long time. Just take a look at how absurdly tanky she is:
252 SpA Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie in Sand: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Needless to say, the previously mentioned special attackers ain't breaking through that any time soon, and it actually makes Leftovers a strong source of recovery somehow since you take so little damage.
Encore is an important part of the equation, as it prevents Slowbro and other slow CMers to use Diancie as setup bait while punishing opponents trying to get too greedy and doing whatever in front of Diancie.
Here is a sample set:
Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Spikes
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Encore
Diancie is an excellent Spikes setter due to her previously mentioned great matchups against every hazard control form. I just explained why Encore is great, and Diamond Storm+Moonblast are 2 high-powered STABs with nasty secondary effects.
As you probably saw when reading this post, Diancie pairs well with Hippowdon, giving a physically bulky Stealth Rock setter that also summons Sandstorm for the SpDef boost.
Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Spikes
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Encore
For the curious ones, here is some sets Diancie can also run:
Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Fighting / Ghost / Fairy / Water...
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Body Press / Stored Power
This is your usual Double Dance set, Diancie has the advantage of having high bases in both Defenses and access to STAB Draining Kiss.
Diancie @ Mental Herb
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room
- Power Gem
- Misty Explosion
I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that Trick Room is viable in any way, but Diancie is definitely one of the main supports for the playstyle.
I hope this post will give you the incentive to try Diancie out because I believe it's still a vastly underutilized Pokemon that has its place in the metagame.
I will also make a Diancie Post, this time detailing a bit of my thoughts on her perceived place in the metagame, why Diancie deserves a second chance, and a bit on a particular set that I've talked a bit about that I want to bring into the limelight. I also kinda wanna spark some life back into this thread while everyone's waiting for the metagame to improve w/ Geezing.
First, off, Diancie as a whole, lets talk about her options, stats, etc.
Diancie - Rock / Fairy typing
Weak to: Grass, Ground, 4xSteel, Water
Resists: Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Normal
Immune to: Dragon, Sandstorm Damage (gets the 1.5 Spd boost from sand!)
This means that against the Pokemon listed below, Diancie ain't having the best of times. , , but female, , (on fraud watch, however), (!!), , , , technically, when it's not the froslass ver., , , , , ,
However, Diancie also gets to easily wall the following members of the RU community. , , (fraud watch), , , , (fraud watch), (still hits hard w/ Shadow Ball)
Next onto Diancie's stats.
50 HP
100 Atk
150 Def
100 SpA
150 SpD
50 Speed
7500 Physical Bulk
7500 Special Bulk
1,125,000 bulk overall (i don't actually know if that's a thing that people care about, but big numbers are big numbers)
For the sake of not making this too long, I'll compartmentalize the comparisons, but in this section I compare Diancie's bulk to the bulk of common Pokemon in the metagame to show how she stacks up.
vs.
7500/7500 vs. 7980/9120
480 points lower in physical bulk, 1620 lower in special bulk
vs. (w/ eviolite)
7500/7500 vs. 9750/6825
2250 points lower in physical bulk, 675 points higher in special bulk
vs.
7500/7500 vs. 10736/6600
3236 points lower in physical bulk, 900 points higher in special bulk
vs. (w/ AV)
7500/7500 vs. 4550/6825
2950 points higher in physical bulk, 675 points higher in special bulk
TLDR, Diancie isn't like the -worst- when it comes to bulk, especially in on the special side, and is able to hold a candle to the bulkier members of the metagame. I also want to put out that uninvested Diancie's defenses reach 336, which is kinda good, putting Diancie's uninvested bulk far above the bulk of other pokemon, even when investment is taken into account sometimes.
Notable Moves of Diancies includes: Body Press, Calm Mind, Diamond Storm, Draining Kiss, Earth Power, Encore, Flash Cannon, Gyro Ball, Iron Defense, Meteor Beam, Moonblast, Play Rough, Power Gem, Psychic, Psyshock, Rock Polish, Spikes, StealthRock, Stored Power, Trick Room
Already this, combined with Diancie's balanced stats allows Diancie's flexibility as team member shine, allowing her to play as a Body Press gamer, set both hazards, and even fight on the special side with plenty of options.
Diancie has the ability of Clear Body, which really doesn't help much, but at the least it blocks Thundurus Kick's def drop from Gapdos?
But with all these positives, why is Diancie not seen more? especially considering the fact that around December of last year, Diancie was at the top of the tier lists? Well I think it comes down to three factors: the main one being the influx of legendaries and power creep.
The common trend that I saw looking at past tier lists was that once the UU drops that contained Zarude, Enam-T, Hoopa-U, and such along with the unbans happened, new toy syndrome caused people to start ignoring Diancie. There simply were much better options, and some options just beat Diancie outright. Then the monkey months rolled in, and with Zarude being the premier wincon, Diancie simply could not be run viably. After that point, Diancie had dropped, and slid further and further down the tierlists and eventually became forgotten, often being overshadowed by mons such as Cobalion (does body press better), Enam-T (does the calm minding better) and even alcremie for some reason??? idk about this one tbh. but that, being forgotten, and in an NU position, is Reason Two.
Reason Three, is that just like Wo-Chien, a now PU mon that used to be pretty good in RU, Diancie is a Tera Sink, and requires Tera to beat her unwinnable matchups. The most common tera, imo, is Water, as that lets you beat Bisharp and the Water types that roam the tier, and with Zarude out of the picture (don't unban him the poll in the RU room LIES), Amoonguss becomes the only obstacle, especially with Thundy-T also out of the picture, with very few contestants coming in to replace em, aside from Magnezone.
However!
Despite that, in today's meta, a large amount of the mons who brought trouble have been banned, fallen off, or are back up in UU!
Additionally, you don't need to always have a tera ready for an endgame, so Diancie can infact be run viably! If I can be real, Diancie is like a A- mon i'm not kidding.
I mean, being able to set spikes just as part of a regular moveset is kinda good y'know? unlike Deoxy's or Brambleghast, you're not only bulky, but you're able to exert meaningful pressure and beat Cyclizar, which is a great quality to have, along with just generally benefiting from a large moveset that gives you options, but doesn't force you into 4MSS, which luckily diamond girl here doesn't suffer from.
But, onto the real meat and potatos.
And yeah this is the exact same set I used for the Victim of the Week thread.
Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
This set may look familiar. This is because it is almost identical to the moveset Enam-T used to run :3
For the EVs, I went all in on HP, since that's the stat that matters most and needs to be boosted up the most to be at an acceptable level, and all in on SpA, since you wanna be doing as much damage as possible with Draining Kiss to be doing the most amount of damage.
However, unlike Enamorus-Therian, Diancie has several upsides, with only a few downsides, in comparison.
First off, is that Diancie does NOT have a Stealth Rocks weakness, being neutral to the hazard. However, Diancie is weak to Spikes, so keep those hazards away, but it's not as immediately an issue as Enam's SR weakness.
Additionally, Enam-T had an issue with wanting to invest in bulk, speed, and power all at the same time. Diancie with this set doesn't really care about speed (you outspeed araquanid and amoonguss ig), but she does have plenty of bulk to spare, so you can invest all in on power, and don't have to dedicate EV's to defense like how Enam-T had to do sometimes.
The big difference is that, obviously you don't have a 135 SpA statline. However, as I've pointed out, Diancie trades this in for generally higher bulk and less of a need to invest in bulk
If you don't believe me, Diancie with 252 HP and no Def Invest has the following numbers:
304 HP
336 Def
336 SpD
While Enam-T, with the same investment, has: 352 HP (48 points higher)
256 Def (80 points lower)
236 SpD (100 points lower)
Enam-T, in terms of bulk, has to invest fully into Def to reach 319, pretty far from Diancie's uninvested Def stat. So as you can see, Diancie is the more bulky of the two. This allows Diancie to set up Calm Minds more easily, and take hits with ease that would decimate Enam's chances at setting up a win.
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Enamorus-Therian: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All in all, the closest comparison that can be made is that Diancie is a slightly worse version of Enamorus-Therian (which got banned) if it were to invest fully into HP and Def. It doesn't hit as hard, but it can set up, abuse tera, and does great in a meta where people aren't prepared for Enamorus-Therian 2. It also beats Moltres and Rotom Heat, and the last moveslot can be changed to be whatever to be honest. It can be Encore, Psychic/Stored Power (to beat Amoonguss), Flash Cannon, whatever.
Like, honestly. Don't let the word "worse" fool you. Diancie is a legitimate threat that if I can be honest, feels easier to use than Enam-T ever did. Idk what it is, but Diancie kinda fits into teams a lot easier, and certainly feels more consistent in getting the ball rolling than Enam-T.
Tera Water, I want to mention, also just like with Enam, goes absolutely stupid, and allows you to find so many setup opportunities that I wanna just quickly list em out.
Tera Water lets you get at least ONE free turn to set up cleanly on (and still act afterwards w/ a draining kiss): , , but female, (now you resist heavy slam), , , , (do not recommend tbh, kill with someone else or chip it down), , (again), , (assuming Air Balloon is popped), , (assuming not froslass ver.), , etc.
And that's not to mention the various other mons that you can just set up on normally without fear of retribution, such as:
(beat em no matter what tbh), (you have to CM on the switch, and have no prior damage, but at +4 you outheal Seismic Toss w/ DKiss), (if it's Drain Punch), (big one!), , (assuming not CM), , (assuming not Red Card), , (you can't "win", but you can cripple em w/ EP), (gotta play proactively with this one), , , and so many more NU mons
So if you take away anything, please. Consider Diancie. She's not an unmon, not some unranked garbage that gets thrown on there by some random 1200 ELO ladder player, Diancie has legitimate strengths and weaknesses that very much can be handled by Tera or your teammates.
TLDR, you can go with the tried and true BP Diamond Storm Spikes set, or you can game with Enam-T 2, and both will pull their weight.
REPLAY ZONE to show y'all that I ain't just yapping.
(these last 2 are reused from my victim of the week submission but idc I keep forgetting to click "save replay" on my "did ok, played meh" and losing games cut me some slack)
anyways that was my post on Diancie! hope I've convinced a few of y'all, otherwise my two hours of work will go to naught...
you know maybe it ain't the best idea to make every post of mine an essay
also here is my team i was using, for anyone wanting to try it out. Everything there is standard (minus amoonguss, but that's to not auto-lose to Zone), as I'm not locked in enough to be optimizing stat spreads in accordance to the metagame to avoid blastoise rolls or something
have a good day y'all, and as always criticism is welcomed!
i know I just made a post... but I had to make this.
(and yes I did win solely off of one air slash flinch)
also shoutouts to mystical eonis who lost to a bisharp clicking iron head 5 times against a tera poison slowbro and lost due to 4 consecutive flinches, this one's for you
I'll be honest, I kinda would at least like some dicussion being made about whether or not flinches or flinching moves deserve a place in the RU metagame, especially since some of the best mons have flinching moves as their main form of offense, so games often get decided more due to luck and speed rather than skill and positioning (heres looking at you choice scarf Jirachi.)
i know I just made a post... but I had to make this.
(and yes I did win solely off of one air slash flinch)
also shoutouts to mystical eonis who lost to a bisharp clicking iron head 5 times against a tera poison slowbro and lost due to 4 consecutive flinches, this one's for you
I'll be honest, I kinda would at least like some dicussion being made about whether or not flinches or flinching moves deserve a place in the RU metagame, especially since some of the best mons have flinching moves as their main form of offense, so games often get decided more due to luck and speed rather than skill and positioning (heres looking at you choice scarf Jirachi.)
I do believe that there is a REAL problem with flinching in RU, between:
Revavroom Iron Head
Yanmega Air Slash
Gyarados Waterfall
Jirachi Iron Head
Bisharp Iron Head
even Salamence Iron Head
These are already some of the best Pokemon in the tier who don't need a lot to roll over entire teams.
Notice how, outside of Jirachi (who is not a problem imo btw, he hits like a wet noodle), they're all setup sweepers who you cannot afford to give free turns to, especially when they often need only 1 flinch to beat their checks and counters ; which you cannot really avoid for some of them since both Revavroom and Yanmega are impossible to outspeed, forcing you to roll the dice. This is further compounded by paralysis being relatively easy to spread thanks to Body Slam Jirachi and Twave Slowbro/Thundurus/even Raikou for that matter/Stun Spore Amoonguss?. No matter how you look at it, even if you believe that we should just l2p, we can definitely have a discussion on whether the RNG element of these threats is too much (especially when they work really well together) in a competitive standpoint, and how we could find solutions to this phenomenon.
As usual with previous generations, we lose Cobalion after it becomes a good influence in the tier. Losing Moltres also means that physical attackers who were scared of Flame Body burn do not need to worry anymore. We also lost one of the top Stealth Rock user in Rhyperior.
On the bright side, we got another hazard control!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Weezing-Galar and Goodra-Hisui are new additions to the tier! Oh and yeah, Indeedee-M is NU again.
With the (potential) advent of psyspam as a playstyle, and not many ways to deal with terrains overall, the shifts brought us a bad great way to passively counteract it:
With Misty Surge, you can contest the terrain out of psyspam teams, both weakening their STABs and blocking the activation of their Seed items. Misty terrain also help by blocking status, making setup sweepers like the recently dropped H-Goodra and Okidogi much harder to check in that way. The set focuses on special bulk to ease switching into special attackers. Tera type can be either flying to keep the Ilusion of Levitate or Dark to be a bigger nuisance to psyspam.
On a more serious note, I'm glad we got this mon. It's quite versatile, and brings some unique tools to the tier. Losing moltres and rhyperior kinda sucks tho XD
got a 6: I don't think its broken but Shell Smash cheese isn't fun to deal with
also got a 6 but mostly because of the same reasons because it is a terrifying sweeper that can feel admittedly cheesy as well if you team doesn't do well into it
got a 7 because well this thing is fat and annoying and not the healthiest thing but also I don't think action is super urgent despite it promoting some not so healthy dynamics its not quite at that level for me yet
got a 7 as well, mostly for the serene grace flinching antics that I feel could push it over the edge, but to me doesn't feel urgent at the moment with a certain nuclear doggo running around...
got a 10, this mon just has no switch ins, and it feels like every game you have to sack mons to it due to how hard it is to account for what it can slot into its bulk up sets like taunt to stop opposing setup and other coverage options and the tera antics that follow, choice band sets are also a bit too strong as well, even 2hkoing the likes of the RU defensive slowbro set via knock off and 2hkoing defensive moltres via gunk shot. I think this thing needs action, because ever since we got the OP psychic types out of here like 
and 
this thing has become a little too dominant for my liking and definitely isn't healthy at all if it can 2hko the likes of 
and "Slowbro: (Who is already controversial lmao) with its choice band sets. Mon just feels like it is too much for a lot of teams to account for and definitely is not healthy in the slightest for a lot of teams to have to sack something or multiple mons to banded or bulk up boosted dogi every game.
, just to mention a few, and would give bring a healthy check for Pokemon such as Slowbro, Reuniclus and Blastoise.
/ 
/ 
Diancie.
, 
, 
but female, 
(on fraud watch, however), 
, 
technically, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
(fraud watch), 
, 
, 
(still hits hard w/ Shadow Ball)
(w/ eviolite)
, 
, 
, 
, 
(you have to CM on the switch, and have no prior damage, but at +4 you outheal Seismic Toss w/ DKiss), 
(if it's Drain Punch), 
(gotta play proactively with this one), 
