Leftovers is better than the extra 20 SpD if you want to be defensive. Most Dialga sets I see though are Choice Scarf so Dialga-O can't do that either.
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Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Spectrier Ban @ Post 702)
- Thread starter KineSquared
- Start date
Historically, Dialga has been preferred to Dialga-O due to being able to hold items, especially Leftovers and Boots, Dialga-Origin has always been incredibly vunerable to chip, especially Spikes, from the Magearna that has consistently hit over 50% Usage rate.
So it's been a couple days, how has the penguin in town been doing? To me this is the latest part of valuing stealth rocks over spikes, and its another thing that can do great damage to magearna. Our mascot may truly be losing its top spot to giratina, which looks stronger than ever to me.
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I have heard mixed things about the bundler, some say it's great, some think it's meh, personally, i think it is very much a good Pokémon. Boots is way too weak in my opinion, though Specs
in the words of our former tier leader
It appears Iron Bundle is really not as great as expected. Decent revenge killer, but doesn't have the greatest damage output.
Its not even a great revenge killer when its slower than Zacian and doesnt come in on most offensive Pokemon not named Landorus unfortunately.
Go sign up for the ubers uu open! https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/unofficial-circuits.665/
Alright so sleep ban is good because it not only demods the format (tiers should strive for that) and it also fixes a shitty clause that would've been laughed out of discussion if proposed nowadays, comparing it to para is disingenuous as the moves that inflict sleep as a secondary effect are very rare and few in-between and another issue is moves like hypnosis isn't 100% accurate so if they miss said hypnosis after you bring in the mon you want to sack to the sleep they get a free turn. removing uncompetitive rng in a competitive game is what you should do and you cant go "but para and freeze can also do this" as what are you gonna do ban all moves that inflict para/freeze as a secondary effect? sleep is cheese, you cant deny it. there are also ways to avoid para commonly (ground types) and less so freeze. if I need to explain further I'd love to enlighten you by that's it for now.
but on a serious note, when asking for sleep ban you're not asking relic song ban lol. Its obvious that the only move we are talking about when comparing sleep to para is thunder wave, which can as easily as hypnosis or sleep powder steal games.
This isnt a defense though lol. A tier should be as close to cart accurate as possible. Saying sleep clause mod shouldnt be replaced by the superior sleep ban. If you want to argue about twave there is a funny type immune to electric attacks thats a mandatory type on almost every team. But if you want to use that as an argument advocate for a twave ban not prevent the demodding of a tier that also improves it. Infact i would say those who dont like the sleep ban should realize the fact that after this gen that will be the thing replacing the sleep clause mod. And thats just the truth.
I would not assume that the goal is to "be as cart accurate as possible". If that was true, smogon never would have had sleep clause (or freeze clause) in any tier in the first place. Sleep and sleep clause has a place in the competitive pokemon environment, and whether its worth it (sticking to ubers does have some merit) over other options isn't set in stone and is a reasonable discussion.
actually, yeah, thats roughly half my goal when supporting a sleep ban
Remember those are relics of the past! Those arent from modern smogon, the goal of sleep ban isnt just to get rid of a broken element it is also for cart accuracy.
SV Ubers is the basis of our tiering system, and is very much not a relic of the past. Old gen games are constantly inspected and thought about in terms of bans, and sleep clause does not usually (gen 5 lifted it) come under inspection. These metagames are larger and arguably more relevant that uubers. Some people might prefer cart accuracy, but its not a requirement or a definitive goal the way "making a balanced metagame" is. There are arguments for sleep clause being lifted and sleep moves being banned, and arguably making the game more cartridge accurate. That doesn't mean people who suggest the current system is good are wrong. Speak for your own experience and opinion, don't just blanketly say "This isnt a defense though lol. A tier should be as close to cart accurate as possible." like its an indisputable fact
Just want to note that, since we are based on SV Ubers, it isn’t really our place to ban something for not being “cart accurate” since the tier we are based on should dictate the rule set. If the argument is that sleep is uncompetitive in the tier and should be removed for reasons related to competitiveness and balance, that would make more sense, but I can’t really see how we should entertain arguments against sleep on cart accuracy when our parent tier has already made the determination for us on what is acceptable re: cart.
It is an indisputable fact? You misinterpreted what i said, the clauses are from a bygone era of smogon. If you want examples of tiers banning a mechanic from a higher tier check ndru or was it nduu regardless. Your argument to defend sleep is inadequate at best unfortunately. I think as a tier founder you should already know going for cart accuracy is a thing smogon goes for now in the modern era. And you also ignore the fact that if said clause was brought up nowadays itd be laughed out of discussion. Why are we fighting to use a clause from early smogon when cart accuracy wasnt as sought after (obviously) but seriously. You haven't given an actual argument as to why sleep shouldnt be banned.
Forgot to reply to this but thats the point of it. It does both at the same time. If you want more indepth arguments theres this funny little thread about why sleep was banned
I have no clue what you’re talking about but if your point is that sleep should be banned everywhere including in SV Ubers you’re in the wrong thread, you gotta go to the PR subforums.
No. While i do think that would be a good thing to happen my point is as sleep is problematic here you can hit two birds with one stone by implementing sleep ban which is the point of the original sleep ban in ou. The point is those who are anti sleep ban here when it would benefit are being a lil silly. The para comparisons are disingenuous at best. But overall if you need more clarifications im happy to answer
I mean genuine question what even actually uses sleep beyond rest-talk?
surveying the viability rankings, what viable mons even actually use sleep? amoonguss AND darkrai are vibing in unranked, why is sleep being looked at when cheespathra and gyattatina are the only mons who could maybe run it?
surveying the viability rankings, what viable mons even actually use sleep? amoonguss AND darkrai are vibing in unranked, why is sleep being looked at when cheespathra and gyattatina are the only mons who could maybe run it?
I think the para comparisons are mostly memes and not serious, I don’t think that’s actually advancing the discussion in any meaningful way, but neither are cart accurate arguments since that’s not really something we look at since we are beholden to Ubers.
The para argument is brought up because sleep right now has no argument over other luck driven mechanics for it to be banned, there's one abuser of it, which is hypnosis espathra, any thunder wave arceus or just the spread of it because of giratina-origin can also abuse luck to get an undeserved win, sleep was banned in OU due to the high amount of mons that could simply just learn sleep moves (Iron Valiant, Darkrai, Lilligant-H were brought up on the Policy Review), The variance of sets with it (Espathra has one set) and the meta not being able to deal with it.
Banning a whole mechanic just because of one mon abusing it is laughable and until another mon comes and proves me wrong I will think that or you either ban Espathra or Do Nothing (preferably do nothing espathra is niche at best)
Whats your favorite type of playstyle right now in ubers uu? What type of playstyle do you wish was better?
I am a fiend for offense right now. give me a few defensive, sackable pivots and a lot of revenge killing potential and I'm a happy gamer. I think the uubers environment is particularly open to that right now, as we have a lot of semi-real/depends on set answers for the biggest threats like zacian, arc-poison and gouging fire.
I wish sandstorm bulky teams were better. Tanny had a pretty cool pure sand stall, but besides that there's a lot of opportunity there. Tyranitar actually has the special bulk and utility (dtail/knock off) to stand up to a lot of special attackers in the tier, exca is great into mag/solg, and you have a ton of other decent options like mandibuzz, arceus-rock, and other that also have synergy with the weather. chipping terapagos isn't as important anymore, but we also are seeing sash deoxys and hamurott that don't like the chip. I can't tell whether sand just needs more development, or it's lacking some fundamental pieces that make it worse off than other playstyles.
I wish sandstorm bulky teams were better. Tanny had a pretty cool pure sand stall, but besides that there's a lot of opportunity there. Tyranitar actually has the special bulk and utility (dtail/knock off) to stand up to a lot of special attackers in the tier, exca is great into mag/solg, and you have a ton of other decent options like mandibuzz, arceus-rock, and other that also have synergy with the weather. chipping terapagos isn't as important anymore, but we also are seeing sash deoxys and hamurott that don't like the chip. I can't tell whether sand just needs more development, or it's lacking some fundamental pieces that make it worse off than other playstyles.
HO is love HO is life
Historically I’ve always been a fan of balance but the meta in its current state favors offense way too much to reliably run defensive cores to enough success to make it worth. This tier’s best defense is not letting your opponent’s get into a position where they are the ones who threaten you. Our best checks to threats are often to just to kill them back better than they kill you. The obvious exceptions are like mandi, tine, mola, and mag but teams with those feel very cookie-cutter like which I don’t like with the exception of the palafin chi yu one I’m known for which is kinda ass atm.
I have always been known as an BO/Offense/HO player, being one of the main users of many styles of it throughout the metagame's existance, from old days of Rain, from being one of the main TR players, to LAM (precursor to MALT, usually more offensive), to Sun, to Deoxys-Speed Hyper Offense, to Shed Tail, to Sticky Web. It is no surprise that i am enjoying the current proactive state of the metagame. Right now, both Sun teams and Deoxys lead HO both feel great, though i am also enjoying some BOey ideas with Quagsire+Mandibuzz teams.
As for a playstyle i wish was better, Rain, it has very cool ideas, with Pokémon like Palkia-Origin and Palafin, though sadly, it is simply bad.
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