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I didn't play with Fez in OU; I saw the stats and saw that it was trash. But now that I'm looking at it a little more closely, I don't think it's as trash as I thought. It has both SD and NP, along with decent defensive stats and a pretty damn good typing, so it should get some moments to set up. Is it going to be great? Absolutely not, but I think it might be NUBL, which is better than the PU I was predicting when I first saw it. Not gonna be a UU mon, unfortunately for it (especially with so many ground types around lol).
Oddly I agree - I tried Technician Sword Dance and it surprisingly hits just enough hard and has just enough speed to be somewhat viable, especially with its typing.
Not saying it is the best mon ever but I am always surprised how good offensive Fairy is.
*vine boom*
Also
Kommo-o: its so sad Steve Jobs died of ligma
Opposing Pokémon: who the hell is Steve Jobs?
Kommo-o, about to use Boomburst at +2: Ligma Balls
SD weavile is incredibly strong right now, often times if it gets an sd up it claims atleast one or two kills. The tier doesnt really have switchins to +2 tera dark knock off in combination with icicle crash and a large majority of the tier just drops weave lol, the only real counter to it being quaqaval. Yes it can be revenge killed with things like iron handino or priority and defensive teras but i still think its a unhealthy presence and i think it should go.
He is still doing the same stuff he did pre home in poltergeisting everying to death and being annoying hard to kill because of bitter blade recovery and its surprisingly good bulk. This time around we do have mandibuzz to check him but we cant have every team without a mandibuzz losing to SD ceruledge lol, focus sash ceruledge sets can even beat mandibuzz 1v1 if you sd on the turn they switch in mandi. We also have garganacl as a check but that has to burn your tera if you actually want to check ceru because of close combat. He is still unhealthy imo and i think should be re-banned.
Things i think are potentially broken?:
/ Rain running around with torn and thund therian as well as mons like flip turn barraskewda and basculegion male seems like a bad idea to me, but i think this meta has pretty good tools for handling rain so maybe its fine.
Lots of people have been telling me this thing needs to go. Personally i havent had much trouble with it on ladder but thats ladder, the quality of play there isnt exactly the greatest. Clangorous soul sets are on paper pretty broken, but kommo-o also has a fuck ton of different sets and different tera types it can run very well which makes it scarier to face.
I think people were sorta overreacting about this at first, it is way well broken than i initially thought it would be. SD scale shot stuff can get out of hand pretty easily especially with tera in the mix. You can use things like defensuve tera and priority to beat it, aswell as alot of mons can take one hit and revenge back like foul play amoong or chesnaught. The priority route doesnt really work unless they have already used tera mind you because they just tera steel and resist your prio and kill you. I am still not sure if this is broken yet but from ladder im leaning on the side of it not being broken i think.
& I havent seen a SD quaq or a iron hands yet on ladder but i think these guys might still be broken?
Garg:
Garganacl is just pesky at most, this does not need a ban lol.
Hi, Gen 9 OU mainstay here; I apologize on behalf of OU for letting our monstrosities come down here, and wanted to make sure you were all okay and drinking plenty of water.
As an OU peruser myself, I'm beginning to think someone deciding the DLC Mon rosters at GF is trying to selectively introduce OP stuff to OU so that the UU drops will free something they like from UUBL, be it Quaquaval or Iron Hands. It's the only explanation for the consistent barrage of stuff that's so ridiculous/centralizing without QUITE getting them to Quickban status (with the one or two exceptions like Ogerpon-H or Snow pushing Baxcalibur over). The tier roster is turning into Mr. Burns' immune system.
Somewhat related
Kommo-o's performance down here in UU is something I'd be interested to see, because it's always struck me as a Pokemon that can do a lot of things potentially well, but is always outdone by some specialist in OU, which Gen 9 Min-Maxing emphasized up there, while the lower tiers seem (at least comparatively) like the dominant stuff has a smaller gulf from their competition, which works better for Kommo-o who has to worry less about its mid-ceiling than its High Floor. I also expect early tiering action to play a major role in what some of the Pokemon both existing and newly dropped choose to run. Weezing-G might prefer Levitate a lot more while grounds like Garchomp are here, but Neutralizing Gas probably does it a lot more favors into a bunch of Fighting types like Conkeldurr, and Donphan vs Iron Treads probably favors normal Elephant a bit more while a lot of (decently) bulky Grounds and Fighting types are around
From my experience, the tier honestly doesn't feel that bad. I don't think there is a very clear Pokemon that is just so broken to the point of defensive and offensive counterplay feeling mute. While I do feel this way there are definitely some that stand out way above the others for me, which I'll talk a little about below. Assuming we give the metagame another week before a council vote is potentially held I think these would be my main highlights.
Personally, I believe rain is manageable but it comes down to the same question of whether the tier benefits from having it around. Every time we deal with Pelipper rising and dropping between OU and UU it proceeds to dominate the ladder in terms of usage. In doing so it does in some capacity warp the tier to accommodate it. I say to some capacity because a fair amount of the time most of the rain checks are fairly easy to put onto a build, but the point I'm trying to make still stands. Probably worth looking at anyways.
If something is likely to end up broken I can see it being clanger. From experience, I have only run into the Clangorous set and in most of my games, I feel it was never properly utilized. Looking at that set on paper though it has very few pivots like Skeledirge and Soundproof Kommo-o. Then you also have to account for how flexible Kommo-o is as a Pokemon. Offensive mixed rocks, defensive rocks, ID + BP, DD, SD, BD, etc. Now I am kind of just listing them and I am sure not all of those will be that good but I'm mainly doing it to highlight the flexibility of it. Just like most of our offensive mons it is a good tera user to get those setup turns and has three amazing abilities to meet your needs.
Imo Garchomp isn't that bad to deal with. The SD Scale Shot is deadly for sure but it isn't simple to just bring it in and get those two turns to truly pop off. You have to SD and ideally drop the Pokemon coming in with Scale Shot without taking too much damage otherwise you just get revenge killed most of the time. Tera can obviously make it easier to potentially get those chances but I still don't believe it is consistent at doing so. It is fairly flexible as I have seen/used ChainChomp and Scarf. I saw some people mention mixed, which I can also see as having potential. While I don't think it is busted I have seen a good amount of support to quick ban it so it is worth looking into.
I have not seen much discussion about Meow at all but I think it should be watched carefully. It does the exact same thing as before. CB is frankly an absurd wallbreaker and it is very easy to get it into positions to dismantle teams. The Speed tier is key because Tornadus-T is slower and most offensive variants just drop to Knock. Weavile being pretty good does limit it a bit but I just feel it muscles through its defensive checks fairly easily. Play Rough deals with Kommo-o and Chesnaught. Amoonguss is one of the better responses but U-turn does 35 while generating momentum. I think its other sets are less extreme, Scarf is a great revenge killer against all the HO and boots is a solid offensive pivot. My main worry stems from the banded set so I wanted to mention it.
I took the time to try Hands for a good bit. It is less extreme than before; however, I still think it is a tad too much. You still have the ability to send this in against most offensive Pokemon and use it as a safety net to get out of most bad situations because of how bulky it is + having a good defensive typing. It is very hard to trade with it and come out on top in the exchange. Ice Punch as coverage deals with most of the things that would pivot into Hands to check it defensively so I don't even feel you need to go to any extremes either. If you get the SD off you are dropping something and tera can just turn most attempts to revenge it into 50/50s as there are quite a few good choices.
Garg isn't busted but man is this the most unfun thing I have ever played against bro. Salt Cure is not enjoyable to play around and it is rather lame the counterplay is limited to an item, Covert Cloak. It isn't impossible to break by any means, though I have seen quite a few different tera types like Fairy, Water, etc. which can make the gameplan against it vary. I know it isn't ideal to want to remove something based on 'fun' but I would appreciate it if it was still at least considered for a vote if one does happen.
I love this dude so much. It is remarkably bulky and is a very annoying Pokemon to remove when you combine Strength Sap + Matcha Gotcha burn chance and heal. I have predominately been using Hex + Foul Play and using it as a defensive pivot into Luna, Chomp, Hands, etc. I have also ran into a lot of CM sets and they can be difficult to remove thanks to Matcha healing scaling based on the damage you do. I saw Poison the most on those to prevent being poisoned. Can't comment on whether the spread would be the same though. Mine is just faster than Crawdaunt. Give him a try!
I agree with Liz, Washtom is god. You can slap it onto most teams and it just nicely glues them together.
Here is a Sinistcha team I have been enjoying. It has a lot of ways to spread burn. This was to make Hex feel more worthwhile but it also gives the breakers chances to set up more easily and do their thing. Have a free replay vs. rain too. Pog.
Alright so I played quite a lot during the last 48h, and overall I think the tier has more major issues that will be adressed later on this post. Overall it's really tough to know how things will be in a few weeks because there is some key threats which are omega broken or beyond cringe and they just warp the whole metagame around them. I firmly believe there is many Pokémon with good potential but they just can't shine among the broken ones.
Garchomp @ Loaded Dice / Leftovers / Lum Berry / Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Steel / Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot / Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Tera Blast / Substitute / Stealth Rock
Let's be honest, Garchomp is just too good at what it does. It's not as OP as I would have thought but it's still incredible. Swords Dance Garchomp is frankly insane as a Pokémon and even tho it's speed tier isn't perfect (because we have so many faster threats), it's insane how it can smash threw teams / forces Tera super early into the game. Even regular Swords Dance Garchomp can run a ton of variants and this is even worst when you take Garchomp as a whole. Like.. Lead Garchomp with Dragon Tail and Rocky Helmet is 100% worth it because you fuck over Rapid Spin user with Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet and because Defog is basically a mirage on the tier (we have like 2-3 Pokémon which can really use it). I've been playing LO Mixed Chomp as a Lead too and it works too..even Choice Scarf has it's niche. I trully think this Pokémon is way too good overall and shouldn't stay too long in the tier.
I'm beyong shocked no one is complaining that much about Garganacl. This Pokémon is stupid, because Salt Cure is the cringest move which was ever made by Gamefreak. For real, Curse Garganacl invalidates almost on its own a shit ton of balanced teams which have to rely on Covert Cloak to not be 6-0ed by it. It just too bulky with too many Tera types option, it handles so many threats with ease it's really fucking disgusting. You can't even cripple that bastard with status this is so dumb, it has a built in Ghost-type resist too, making it an insane check to Skeledirge but also Ceruledge with Tera Water. I really hate that Pokémon (even tho I'm using it). Like for real this thing being considered only "pesky" is absurd imo as it invalidated a lot of defensive Pokémon much like insane breakers we banned in the past. I don't think this is something healthy for the tier and a path we should pick for the future of the tier. Just fuck that mon, period.
While I don't know if Kommo-o is too good for being banned right now. I don't see a world where it will stay in UU. Kommo-o is just too versatile overall and can basically do anything. Stealth Rock ? Check. SD or DD variants ? Check. Clangerous Soul on physical or special set ? Check. Sub Belly Drum set ? Check. Like even bulky variant with Iron Defense + Body Press are legit. I've been messing with what I called the KoMoute-O and I swear much like in SS when I was spamming Screens offenses, it's still insane. You can setup on so many Pokémon and just abuse Clangerous Soul behind your Substitute it's hilarious to see. Paired with the right Tera, Kommo-o is able to handle a shit load of stuff. Definitively something to keep in mind in the future.
Is rain too much..mhhhh let's see the Pokémon which can abuse it shall we ?
Water-types :
Pivot / defensive enjoyers of the Rain :
Rain teams can run effectively many variants and all of them are stacking abusers which are able to break for each others. You have a check to a Water-types ? Well you can maybe check one BUT can you check three ?! Like for real, we have a few Wave Crash Swift Swim abusers and on the other hand things such as Azumarill or Crawdaunt which are nuking af. On the other hand, special Swift Swim users are really effective to remove most Water-type resistances thanks to their coverage. And if this wasn't enough there is a shit ton of Pokémon that enjoy Rain thanks to their typing (Grass/Steel-types) and also Thunder/Hurricane spammer..I'm not sure if it's too good right now, but like before, is this healthy and is this what we want the tier to be ? Frankly not sure on that one.
That's all for me. Too lazy to talk too much. I think there is other things which may be problematic such as Iron Hands, Ceruledge or Quaquaval. It's good to see old staples being still great such as Iron Treads, Scizor or Tornadus-T (insane right now with its Nasty Plot/Taunt variants). It's also great that we have new defensive backbones for bulkier archetypes. Things like Sinistcha, Rotom-Wash, Weezing-Galar or Clodsire feels great, even Heatran doesn't seems too bad for real and may be a good thing for the tier as a good way to stallbreak. Like I said in the introduction of that post I also feel like some things such as Mamoswine, Ogerpon, Mienshao or Okidogi will be great once all the broken/unhealthy shits are gone.
Ok so I've also been playing the tier alot and i truly must admit, this tier is very fun right now. Obviously has some brokens that just gotta go, but overall for a meta its not as chaotic as you'd expect. That said, I'll name a few highlight makers.
Have not seen people compliment this Pokémon enough. Meowscarada got you down? Garchomp got you doing mental gynmastics on how you handle it? Need a defogger? Look no further at the A+ candidate himself. The amount of things this pokemon can check / do for teams is genuinely amazing, and Pain split helps keep it around long enough for to ensure what it's trying to check doesn't get to do a damn thing all game. Just for fun, I'll list some more things it checks or atleast soft checks.
Iron Hands, Mienshao, Infernape, H-Lilligant, Lokix, Ogerpon if it's not CB Zen, Zap-G, and barely Mamoswine, Weavile and Ursaluna if your willing to never see G-Weezing again.
Yknow, if this thing wasn't broken I think i'd be very mad. This thing is one of the most cheater cheater pumpkin eater ass pokemon I've seen in awhile, and it feels amazing knowing that it's checks are incredibly fake. Despite all my clamor of G-Weez checking chomp, Tera fire SD Iron head basically trivializes it, and also does the same to Enam-T. the rest either struggle to kill it back like Moltres, Cress without 24 hours of prep time, or even scald alomomola bouncing off. Washtom and Mandibuzz don't want to take SS much either, but they can. Honestly it's not as broken as I expected/wanted but it's still definitely too much.
I am pleased to announce this Pokemon remains very good. Knock CB Tar is an incredible wall breaker that is very capable of finding opportunities of entry on common stuff like Heatran, Mandibuzz, and just using Volt switch with Rotom-wash. Alot of the things that stuffed it before like Hippowdon, Chesnaught and Quag are far less common and alot of common fighters like Mienshao or Infernape don't exactly like taking hits. Kommo-o is obnoxious but I have a hunch that Pokemon leaves by the end of the week so frankly just wait for a check to leave. Iron hands and Quaquaval are fairly annoying but Quaq takes a ton from Knock/Edge and Hands is one EQ away from not checking it again. "Oh it just drains back to half bro" if you aren't using a good enough fighting resist when your using Tyranitar idk what to tell you.. Like G-Weezing! Honestly this pokemon is very nice, give it a shot it definitely has it's merits.
Considering how good and extremely common Knock off is, the fact this mon isn't getting bashed on more is shocking to me. It's incredibly disgusting, and having like 5 Tera types to pick from is incredibly obnoxious. Tera Dragon blanket checks a metric ton of the tier while also flipping rain on its head, Tera Fairy because the only special answers are pmuch H-Goodra and Gengar (lol), Tera water is a mainstay and there's probably even more. This Pokémon doesn't have checks, it has covert cloak as cope and idt there are enough good answers to let this mon rock in the tier for any longer than the end of the week. I expect to see this thing in UUBL by Sunday and I hope im not alone on this lmao
Haven't been able to use this yet but oh boy this Pokémon is incredibly goofy. I don't have much input to say in particular, but I will say there is alot of sets to this thing that look incredibly lame, and I think chucking 33% out the window is a good way to put yourself in Mienshao range, which idt is worth it when DD sets and choiced sets are amazing. Specs or Scarf Boomburst looks incredibly silly, phenomenal IronPress threat to any team without a G-Weezing (you see a trend yet?), and a solid offensive rocker that can just slap rocks on its boomburst set and still be a strong breaker. Also expect this to leave by next Sunday
Think both of these are getting fairly underutilized right now. Ursaluna still does the same stuff but I think it has incredible potential with Quick claw honestly. It can simply rely on it's 140 base attack and high end BP clicks to do a ton of damage and this 20% chance provides outs for a lot of the stupid stuff in the tier right now, and it still has the trait of being able to generally facetank any 1 hit. Hoopa-U on the other hand actually finds alot of benefit out of Mienshao and Meowscarada being able to easily get it infront of what it wants. Amoongus, Alomomola, G-weez, you get the picture. I think Tera fairy Sub sets also find merit with how common Rotom-wash is, Tera fairy preventing Scale shot from just killing you sub or not.
Other things im too lazy to mention / not enough use to mention like Lokix, Hands, Salamence and Okidogi seem interesting, and Weavile and Ogerpon may become too much in the future, but we'll see.
It is arguably the most broken in this meta and requires a less versatile check dedicated to this Pokémon. If this Pokémon is not banned, then garchomp and iron hands do not deserve a ban.
This is the Pokémon to ban other than kommo-o, but it is possible that kommo-o is currently just too weird to load a stable check.
I feel that it is like a home hydreigon, although it could be broken if the garchomp goes away, and does not deserve a qb. It is a stabiliser against the meta, as there are currently more attackers that can only be stopped by iron hands than those that iron hands can defeat.
alright, played meta for a bit, time to drop some takes
this thing is kinda fucking insane LOL, the only real check to it is clodsire and maaaaybe skeledirge, but soundproof kinda fucks over the latter in terms of getting anywhere meaningful. +2 boomburst is simply unmanageable for the majority of teams and it's not difficult to achieve either since kommo resists rocks, isn't frail, and also gains bulk after setting up! i do agree that there are some situations where clangin' isn't the best option since chucking 33% of your health out of the window can put you in a bad spot, but DD and other non-setup sets also exist and can perform similarly well. tera took what was previously a large wealth of options and made it quite frankly unreasonable, this should probably be one of the first things we take a look at.
i don't think this one is quite as busted, 102 speed ain't what it used to be and it struggles to exist at times in a tier where things like meowscarada, gweez, mandibuzz, enamorus-t, and torn-t exist. scale shot sd is incredibly fucking deadly and can be a little silly when it comes to running away with games, but i don't think i'm quite convinced yet that it's to the extent of being banworthy. I feel like, unlike kommo-o, the checks aren't too hyper-specific and it moreso comes down to just preserving your answer until the chomp decides to pop off.
FUCK YOU, GO BACK TO HELL WHERE YOU BELONG. hands has shown us, once again, that it has a very uncanny ability to adapt to the meta. we have actual offensive grounds now, which is great, and we do finally have some things that can one tap it! regardless of this, the problem still exists that hands is just too damn fat and the set variety is too damn large for something so immediately pressing. it's now not so much a question of "do i have a check for hands?", but instead a question of "do i have a check for this hands?". still a trade machine that can pick and choose counters in the builder with little to no struggle and i think the tier is a better place without it.
this little shit is actually really nice rn, hits very hard and toxic chain is super good at forcing progress against fatter stuff that you need a nasty plot to break otherwise. relying on tera/focus blast to hit steels is kinda sucky at times, but the offensive profile is different enough compared to glowbro that this has merits despite lacking flamethrower or something else more consistent. it gets a pretty wide utility movepool too, i think offensive pivot sets with parting shot have potential to be really strong, especially on more offensively geared teams. cool guy and i'm glad we ended up getting him!
does the exact same thing it's always done (hit like a runaway freight train). has an exceptional number of pivots that can get it in reliably, both fast and slow, and an extremely low amount of things in this meta can face tank both a knock and a crabhammer. even chesnaught can still take like 30% which is comically insane for a resisted phys hit. not much else to say other than it just deletes shit if you're not careful.
still insanely good, flower trick and knock are the best stab moves an offensive pivot could ask for and it gives us a reliable offensive spiker, as well as a mon that's consistently faster than torn-t. play rough is nice to hit the dragons, the benefit of being 4x effective against kommo is super swag if you're scarfed. i don't think band is quite as good as it used to be since this meta is waaaaay more offensive at the moment (which will obviously change after it settles a bit), and you end up missing out on a lot of opportunities to come in due to lacking the speed or having to deal with hazard chip. very solid though and definitely something you always have to think about in the builder.
if your grass isn't meowscarada or ogerpon, it's this. naught is the hoover dam keeping all hell from breaking loose at the moment and pairs well with so many defensive staples while also probably being the best knock absorber we have. body press deals very respectable damage to a lot of things, and you generally go positive or at least break even against the common removal options. the return of rain does make synthesis less reliable, but outside of hurricane you match up well into staple rain breakers too, so it's not really the end of the world. very very solid mon.
offensive hole patching 101. special sets are really good right now! focus blast as a main stab is a bit tricky but otherwise you just absolutely blow holes in a lot of teams, things like iron treads and heatran just have their day ruined once you come in. all varieties having access to priority is very good as well since most of the things you want to hit with it are weak to fighting anyway.
every bit of what i wanted, dice icicle spear is insanely reliable and earthquake and knock off cover most of what it doesn't kill. thick fat lets you live some quite silly damage rolls as well, and ice shard makes matchups into more offensive builds feel playable. probably has a lot to be explored in terms of items, but I think boots is just generally the way to go.
do not sleep on this, it lost nothing and gained ice spinner so it doesn't have to run stone edge to hit birds anymore. it can literally just run the same four moves and slap on any article of clothing and EV spread you like and it will function decently.
Ngl this is just as insane as ever lmao. In theory, you should have pretty consistent answers with 3 different unawares in the meta, so many Ground types and Amoonguss, but I've been using it and it kinda just... runs things over. Clodsire and Skeledirge have a rough time in the meta rn, in part due to being fat mons that can't control the pace of a game which is really important rn with how good HO is. Hands also appreciates most Ground types either being too weak and folding to repeated hits or getting worn down quickly. Substitute is crazy to take advantage of stuff like Garg and Amoon and you have flexibility with your Tera and coverage still. Oh yeah and once again it's the only non-guts mon to function while burned. I don't think anything has changed and this is probably still banworthy, it'd still get to choose its answers even if the metagame was better for them.
Please get this thing out of here. We went from 0 counters (assuming they're holding an item) to having Mandibuzz beating it, but it also gets trolled by Sash or Tera Fight and if you don't have Foul Play, you are dead. Offensive Washtom is also a decent check, but yeah absolutely terrible long-term. Besides that, the only thing that changed is that we have a few Aqua Jet users and Scarf Meowscarada makes it want to run Jolly more. I suppose it might get fewer setup options in general, but it's still crazy hard to stop and its good special bulk makes it really hard not to play into Weak Armor if you can't one shot it or it runs Sash. It also gets setup opportunities on the popular GWeezing so many people run to check Chomp.
A bit more open to keeping this, Chesnaught is not doing that well, but we also have Amoonguss right now. Issue is that both can get targeted by Brave Bird in theory. Ogerpon and Meowscarada give you more tools to stop a sweep and Clodsire might end up quite good, but it's still rough to beat comfortably. I still don't love having to plan around Tera against it and being unable to properly sacrifice anything against it due to Moxie is really awkward. The main thing holding it back for me is that there are enough mons that just stat check it well enough and that makes steamrolling teams a fair bit harder. Worth mentionning we also no longer have rilla to RK it.
This isn't insta-winning that many games, but it puts way too much strain on bringing one of very specific counters for it or dedicating your tera to countering it. It gets especially bad if your plan to counter it involves something like Weavile Ice Shard and it just teras out of range of it. Both Tera Fire and Steel are deadly and hard to play around. HO especially can force enough chip on GWeezing or Mandibuzz to get them into range. Anyway realistically, it can be dealt with, yes, but it's way too efficient at breaking when you also have to play around an extremely serious chance for it to sweep.
Ngl I haven't encountered that many, but I have no idea how to beat it besides Dirge and Clod who are pretty bad right now. Like what do you throw at this with its bulk and its ability to Tera Normal at any point? Even Scarf Tera Grass Meowscarada can't properly kill it with Flower Trick after Tera and ClangSoul despite critting through the boosts. Btu yeah I may not be the best to talk about whether this should be banned, but it seems insane in theory.
I think tier would be better off with Hands/Ceruledge/Chomp gone ASAP and I also have a feeling Kommo-O is too good. Incomprehensible 1:30 AM thoughts over.
Chomp is for sure the Mon that should go first, followed by Garganacl and maybe Kommo-o. I think Ceruledge is fine, it does more in practice than in theory, but still haven't found it to be broken at all. Saw exactly one Hands yesterday, so can't comment. Rain and Sun are fine, they check each other and have enough counterplay outside of themselves, the ugly duck is much worse than before, but since it's ugly, I wouldn't be opposed for it to be banned again.
A Mon I haven't seen many people discuss. Personally in my games I have found it obnoxiously difficult to break. Very good defensive typing, very good Bulk and Regenerator makes it pretty difficult to break since it takes neutral damage from most things and resists a lot of others. Chomp EQ at +2 doesn't even threaten OHKO, Max Attack Iron Hands barely threatens OHKO at +2. It's very good at resisting most breakers in the tier completely clowning on Meowscarada for example. Spore and Sludge Bomb means it can very easily generate a lot of value while taking minimal damage thanks to afformentioned qualities.
Ime the best ways to get through it is with either Heatran Magma Storm since even if you get slept Magma Storm is trapping it and you take nothing from it. Tornadus-T Hurricane deals massive damage to it too. That being said it still requires you to be careful since you need to position very carefuly to not have your counter get Slept on switch in and Tornadus hates being Poisoned by Sludge Bomb; relying on 75~% accurate moves doesn't feel great.
There are probably other counters to it I haven't tried yet but it did stood out to me.
Looking at some of the pokemon that were top in viability before the drops and unbans:
: IMO, Skeledirge is having a bad time right now. UU gained a number of major threats that can pressure Skeledirge (), along with some checks from OU that have always given it difficulty in that tier (). Add in a couple of the unbanned mons (), and it is tough out there for the crocodile. More tera reliant than ever, really doesn't like knock off, and can be overwhelmed more reliabily than in the past. Still can do a job, but harder to splash on any team.
: Torn is still very good, but I don't know that I would put it S tier right now, as UU gained some mons that annoy it. It doesn't appreciate the return of, which slightly outspeeds it (the rise ofis even worse). and More or less wall Torn's common sets (especially Rotom), forcing it out unless it runs a move like tera blast grass. Doesn't particularly like sun. Needs to carry weird moves, like focus blast, in order to beat and. On the other hand, Torn does have good matchups against some of the drops and it still fits on many teams.
: Has some of the same issues as Torn. Can manage some of the above mons, but doesn't like the speed creep of the tier and has more 4MSS limitations than ever. outspeeds it by 1 point, andsets up on it unless it teras and uses a super effective tera blast.
: As viable as ever. The best rapid spinner in the tier with great role compression. Is threatened by some new mons, but checks a number of others. Booster energy sets can handle new set up threats. I'm seeing a lot of ice spinner for , specifically.
Just run Tera Fairy variants to beat yourself silly animal.
Anyways, I'm seeing Garchomp, Garg, Ceruledge, Hands, Kommo-o and Meowscarada being on the first quickban list, and Garchomp, Ceruledge Kommo and Garg getting their asses handed to them. With those gone I can see a very dynamic shift in how the meta is ran so I look forward to that!
ngl, i really don't see the issues people are having with garg?? salt cure is mad annoying but that's really it, you can still smack it hard and it hates having to deal with the regen cores that are super plentiful rn. most of the fat waters it would usually victimize don't really care because they heal off more than 25% after switching out and garg's recovery is suuuuuper limited. purifying salt is an incredibly good ability, but it only gets you so far, especially in a meta where toxic access is rather limited and the main offensive ghosts have other ways to blow past you. it's a strong defensive mon that has some good matchups, but nothing super overbearing imo.
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
Sub means you cannot get Spored, Tera Steel means neither Giga Drain nor Sludge Bomb are doing much if anything at all. You can sweep games if you manage to set up on it. Never the less Amoonguss is still dangerous.
That out of the way. Biggest Suspects
Holy shit this mon is so stupid. Lives so much while also dealing massive damage and healing through it even supposed checks dont want to eat hits from it especially if it got an SD off. And its not very hard to get that SD opportunity since it takes so little and heals afterwards. Especially with Tera Flying giving it potentially a free turn against Ground Types. To UUBL begone.
I expected this to SD once and then run over games. To my surprise it's not what's happening. Personally tho I really do not think this Mon is Quickban worthy. Defensively you have Washtom, Mandibuzz, Geezing and Enamorous-T that can live hits with latter two also forcing Chomp to run coverage making offensive sets decently predictible. As for offensive checks, Iron Hands obviously threatens it, offensive Iron Treads outspeeds and OHKO's with Ice Spinner at +0, Scarf Meow outspeeds and OHKO's after 1 Scale Shot, Ogerpon threatens Play Rough and Ivy Crudgel, Weavile. Of course it sucks if Chomp Tera's away it checks but that's not the first nor last mon to do that.
Only met one so far. Can't say much other than Scarf Meow wins once again.
It is still insanely strong and requires you to play very carefuly around it. It really doesn't feel much different than from what it did preban. It might become broken later down the line.
Other
Amazing Mon, amazing coverage and speed control. I am so happy to have Meow back in the tier. That being said I don't think it can afford to run CB anymore. Speed tiers have become rough. My go to is Scarf.
Washtom is god and brings a lot of positive defensive utility to the tier. Love having it around.
Personally I have been somewhat disappointed in it. We have lot's of Water, Ground and Fighting types around. I found it decently difficult to get rocks up. I don't think it's bad but I find meta not quite favorable for it.
When I played against him he felt pretty dangerous and tough to break, especially without special attacker. Probably fine thanks to Torn and Shocks bt definitely something to keep in mind
with Cress, Hands and other slow mons around Trick Room might not be as hopeless as it used to
- Very annoying due to it sometimes being a guessing game of what it can run with it's SD set (Fire Fang, Tera Blast, Iron Head) however I do think there are counters to it, and you just have to be careful. Bulky sets and life orb/scarf feel strong and balanced, Scale Shot SD is where it gets iffy for me.
- Has so many sets it can run and is good however you run it, possibly too oppressive for the tier.
- Have not run into very many, but still seems really strong from games I've watched.
- Just such a good mon. Scarf seems better than band, and it can be a counter to kommo with play rough (if you hit it)
Overall I think banning chomp and kommo would open up a lot more freedom and creativity in team building, however they are not extremely pressing issues that would warrant a quick ban, imo. Excited to see where the tier ends up soon!
Out of curiosity, with Meowscarada being so fast, what makes it a good scarfer? Are there other scarf mons that tend to threaten it?
(I do want to note I really haven't played that many games, so I'm not in the know at all)
after grinding ladder and consulting a mental health professional i think i have a solid enough grasp on how i feel about some of the new drops
- An awesome addition to the tier. Full Defense and HP investment alongside Strength Sap and Heatproof can check a lot of the would-be physical juggernauts in the tier, like
Iron Hands or
Garchomp. Its special bulk might leave a little to be desired, but that's nothing a few Calm Minds can't fix. The issue of being weak to Knock Off and Ice moves means it can't switch in as willy-nilly as it'd like, but assuming the attacker switches in on Sinistcha, you'd be surprised how much punishment it can take before accumulated Strength Saps forces the attacker out. Calcs below.
Knock Off whilst holding
Leftovers:
252+ Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 320-380 (92.4 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Knock Off whilst itemless:
252+ Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 216-254 (62.4 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
"Guaranteed 2HKO" might seem kinda bad, and it's true that Sinistcha can't switch into CB Knock Off whatsoever, but clicking Strength Sap every turn will heal you to full nearly every time, while
Meowscarada is dealing less and less damage to and will eventually be forced to switch out once you start Calm Minding.
Knock Off whilst holding
Leftovers:
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 132-156 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Knock Off whilst itemless:
252 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 90-106 (26 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Ice Spinner:
252 Atk Iron Treads Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 110-130 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
Sinistcha can freely switch in on
Iron Treads for the most part, meaning it pairs nicely with mons that Treads forces out like
Clodsire or
Kleavor.
+2 Earthquake:
+2 252+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 87-103 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 Wild Charge:
+2 252+ Atk Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 117-138 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 Ice Punch:
+2 252+ Atk Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 262-310 (75.7 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With the right prediction, you can switch a healthy
Sinistcha into an
Iron Hands attempting to Swords Dance or use a Fighting move, and from there you can Sap Strength it into oblivion. You might even be able to switch in on a +2 Ice Punch and go to town from there, though beware that an
Iron Hands with Speed investment will outspeed an uninvested
Sinistcha.
Earthquake:
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 57-67 (16.4 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 Earthquake:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 113-133 (32.6 - 38.4%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
Scale Shot:
252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 150-180 (43.3 - 52%) -- approx. 3.5% chance to 2HKO
Garchomp when it's trying to set up with Swords Dance, or switch in on a negligible move like Fire Blast or unboosted Earthquake. This matchup is a little iffy since there's nothing stopping
Garchomp from just clicking Swords Dance a hundred times and then blowing you to smithereens, though it definitely wouldn't like getting burned by Matcha Gotcha.
Fire Punch:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatproof Sinistcha: 98-116 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
Crunch:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sinistcha: 210-248 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Something important to note is that
Ursaluna is very slow, and requires significant speed investment to outspeed even an uninvested
Sinistcha. So even though Crunch threatens a 2HKO (and becomes a OHKO after a Swords Dance), I don't think it's infeasible to mitigate it with Strength Sap and Matcha Gotcha. Just make sure to have a new monitor ready after you punch a hole in your current one when you get the inevitably defense drop from Crunch.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. I'd say the only physical attacker that could really threaten a healthy
Sinistcha on the spot would be
Hoopa-U, since it has enough firepower on both attacking stats to threaten a 2HKO even when taking Strength Sap into consideration.
- Clodsire dropping to UU was something I've waited a long time for, and it lives up to my expectations. It might not seem like such a good fit for the current meta what with all the physical attackers and Earthquakes running around, but it's saved my ass from special attackers and waters on so many occasions, especially now that rain is back in UU. Even without much physdef investment, it still does well against fighting moves. Water Absorb is my preferred ability since it stops a lot of potentially dangerous things dead in their tracks. I find Unaware to be a bit more situational, since the setup sweepers that Clod would want to sit on with Unaware (such as
Garchomp or
Iron Hands) can easily destroy it with an unboosted Earthquake.
- Kommo-o needs to Kommo-go. This thing has a hundred different sets it can run, and guessing the wrong one loses you the game on the spot. The only semi-reliable check to this thing is
Skeledirge, who gets eaten alive by the current meta. And that's assuming Kommo-o isn't running Soundproof and Tera Normal with the express purpose of screwing over its most common check!
- On paper, it has a fantastic check in
Weezing-G and some okay checks in
Quagsire and
Sinistcha. In practice, it Terastallizes into a Steel type and runs over your entire team.
Weezing-G becomes a total non-answer unless it predicts the tera in a 5d chess play (and if it predicts wrong, its entire trump card goes out the window), and even though I was just gushing about
Sinistcha earlier, there's really nothing stopping Chomp from clicking Swords Dance 600 times and bowling it over. I suppose in this case
Quagsire would still be a decent check, but I've seen little to none since the drops happened, presumably because it doesn't fit this metagame well. It's frustrating because I do genuinely believe
Garchomp could be a fun addition to the metagame, but with how easily it can turn the tables on its supposed counters I don't think this thing should stay in the tier.
- It does the exact same thing it was doing a week ago. Nothing changed for it aside from more Knock Offs being thrown around, and maybe a new rocks setter or two. Even then, it's still capable of winning games on the spot if you don't have it in range of a priority move. Back to BL hell with you.
- I haven't seen too much of this guy since the drops, but the ones I've run into are usually stifled by
Sinistcha and
Clodsire with Water Absorb. Generally it feels less likely to run away with games on the spot, though I think it'd be worth keeping an eye on it once the meta settles.
- Haven't seen too much of it since the drops, but I think it's a bit more manageable now. A bit. It can still hit like an absolute freight train, but there's somewhat more solid counterplay in
Weezing-G and to a certain extent
Sinistcha. Does that mean it's healthy for the tier? I'm honestly not sure, because again, I haven't run into it much on ladder.
- Lumping these two together since they do basically the same thing. I don't like these mons. I think they're too fast and they hit too hard. It's far too easy for them to U-Turn out of anything they don't like looking at, and far too easy to force something out only to click Knock Off and cripple whatever supposed answer is coming in. HOWEVER, I don't think they should be quickbanned, at least not at the moment. There's currently far more problematic mons running around in the tier, and I'd like to look at those first before evaluating these two.
- This thing can fuck right off. Any boosters that immediately win the game after a turn or two of setup have a seat in BL hell with their name on it. Cresselia is especially aggravating to me because its colossal bulk + Moonlight + Tera Poison + Levitate make it unreasonably hard to kill. Just about the only consistent answer to Cress that I've seen is physical variants of
Hoopa-U, and God help you if you don't win the Tera mindgame.
- Drizzle enables a smorgasbord of potential Swift Swim abusers, but so far I think it's alright. I believe sufficient enough counterplay exists in Water Absorb
Clodsire and physically defensive
Sinistcha, though I can understand people having reservations about using Clod in a meta full of Earthquakes.
Out of curiosity, with Meowscarada being so fast, what makes it a good scarfer? Are there other scarf mons that tend to threaten it?
(I do want to note I really haven't played that many games, so I'm not in the know at all)
General speed control as outspeeds other scarfers and other speed boosters and has a good matchup into offence. Think of something like scarf in gen 7 OU
Garchomp is a superstar addition to the tier. Formerly UU lacked effective ground types outside of treads. UU also had a couple very strong Base 100 and 101 Pokemon that had sweeping potential because of their speed tier. Garchomp outspeeds both of these with max investment, and is a powerful and threatening Pokemon itself.
Garchomp is a Dragon/Ground type, giving it a 4x weakness to Ice Type moves. This eases teambuilder pressure, because when thinking of counterplay, you just gotta outspeed->Ice. Various Pokemon can accomplish this, including the newly dropped Mamoswine and the rising-in-popularity Weavile . This gen also resulted in the move Ice Spinner being widely distributed, to pokemon like the newly dropped Mienshao and UU-cemented Iron Treads , both of which outspeed Garchomp's base 102 speed. There are various pokemon that receive ice type Priority such as the aforementioned Mamoswine and Weavile, along with reliable spinners like Donphan . Neither of these Pokemon are Copium mons, as they add power and/or utility to any team that wishes to run them.
Garchomp contributes as a win condition to a team by dealing a lot of damage, and doing it quickly before damage can be dealt back. This is done mainly by its above average speed tier, and exacerbated by the speed-boosting, STAB, multi-hit move Scale Shot. With this move, Garchomp cheeses the effect of the move gamefreak refuses to give it: Dragon Dance. In two turns, with Swords Dance and Scale Shot, Garchomp gets to potentially +2ATK +1 SPE and deals big, potentially KOing damage in the process. The downside is the speed boost is hit dependent (fairy types stop the boost + 90% accuracy), and lowers Garchomp's defense by 1 stage. This downside does not add any much more weakness to the Pokémon, as it was already weak to Priority Ice 4x, or a fast scarfer with ice coverage.
What DOES mitigate Garchomp's weakness is Terastalization. Changing type to one resisting, or neutral, to the expected revenge-killing move moves is a very effective way to maintain the momentum of a sweep. If priority gets Tera-countered, another Scale Shot puts Garchomp's speed out of range of any scarfed revenge killer. The downside to THIS is a slight loss of power in STAB moves. The common Tera's I've seen are Fire, Water, and Steel, likely chosen to resist the Ice-Shard. Neither of these Tera-types add to Garchomp's Sweeping power, as it loses 50% bonus damage from Earthquake and Scale Shot.
To summarize the last two paragraphs, Garchomp is a very effective offensive sweeper when it utilizes a specific combination of moves, which have drawbacks only exacerbating its existing weaknesses. These weaknesses are then mitigated by the generation-wide mechanic of Terastalization, which when used defensively, has its own drawback of decreasing offensive power gained by the Same Type Attack Bonus.
Garchomp has other utilities I've seen brought up in chat, more often then faced on ladder, of a defensive set utilizing its natural bulk and ability Rough Skin, alongside two hazard options in Stealth Rock and Spikes (new!). I've also heard of the rare mixed LO chomp utilizing its high speed coupled with STAB Earthqake, STAB Draco Meteor, and Fire Blast to surprise common physical checks like Chesnaught .
The presence of Garchomp in the tier demands the Ice Type to be on teams in the teambuilder. As I mentioned, this can come in various forms, on various mons, who offer various roles, utility, and power to a team. Garchomp will not be an unhealthy restriction on UU Teambuilding, as you just need cold speed. When considering the potential of TeraChomp, it requires a sacrifice of a Terastalization from the opponent, which is a reasonable trade of Defensive Typing for Offensive Power, and the valuable Tera-option being used by the opponent for the rest of the battle.
TL;DR + Point I'm Trying to Make: Garchomp is just fuckin good guys. It demands consideration, and I believe it is healthy for the UU metagame in what it brings, which is an effective but specific sweeper, defensive pivot-punisher, and mixed-set potential surprise factor. Garchomp is an All-Star that, if OU keeps fuckin around with its toys, stays and benefits this tier over time.
and More or less wall Torn's common sets (especially Rotom), forcing it out unless it runs a move like tera blast grass. Doesn't particularly like sun.
Just two comments about this.
Grass Knot, unless I am mistaken, should get the Tera boost when under 60 BP, which makes running Tera Blast for Rotom unnecessary (but you still need to Tera into Grass). This also means you don't strictly need to Tera to beat Sandy Shocks, Gastrodon, Garganacl, Tyranitar, though it helps.
Bleakwind Storm largely alleviates its issues with sun and still benefits from perfect accuracy in rain.
Just two comments about this.
Grass Knot, unless I am mistaken, should get the Tera boost when under 60 BP, which makes running Tera Blast for Rotom unnecessary (but you still need to Tera into Grass). This also means you don't strictly need to Tera to beat Sandy Shocks, Gastrodon, Garganacl, Tyranitar, though it helps.
Bleakwind Storm largely alleviates its issues with sun and still benefits from perfect accuracy in rain.
SD weavile is incredibly strong right now, often times if it gets an sd up it claims atleast one or two kills. The tier doesnt really have switchins to +2 tera dark knock off in combination with icicle crash and a large majority of the tier just drops weave lol, the only real counter to it being quaqaval. Yes it can be revenge killed with things like iron handino or priority and defensive teras but i still think its a unhealthy presence and i think it should go.
He is still doing the same stuff he did pre home in poltergeisting everying to death and being annoying hard to kill because of bitter blade recovery and its surprisingly good bulk. This time around we do have mandibuzz to check him but we cant have every team without a mandibuzz losing to SD ceruledge lol, focus sash ceruledge sets can even beat mandibuzz 1v1 if you sd on the turn they switch in mandi. We also have garganacl as a check but that has to burn your tera if you actually want to check ceru because of close combat. He is still unhealthy imo and i think should be re-banned.
/
Rain running around with torn and thund therian as well as mons like flip turn barraskewda and basculegion male seems like a bad idea to me, but i think this meta has pretty good tools for handling rain so maybe its fine.
Lots of people have been telling me this thing needs to go. Personally i havent had much trouble with it on ladder but thats ladder, the quality of play there isnt exactly the greatest. Clangorous soul sets are on paper pretty broken, but kommo-o also has a fuck ton of different sets and different tera types it can run very well which makes it scarier to face.
I think people were sorta overreacting about this at first, it is way well broken than i initially thought it would be. SD scale shot stuff can get out of hand pretty easily especially with tera in the mix. You can use things like defensuve tera and priority to beat it, aswell as alot of mons can take one hit and revenge back like foul play amoong or chesnaught. The priority route doesnt really work unless they have already used tera mind you because they just tera steel and resist your prio and kill you. I am still not sure if this is broken yet but from ladder im leaning on the side of it not being broken i think.
&
I havent seen a SD quaq or a iron hands yet on ladder but i think these guys might still be broken?
Garganacl is just pesky at most, this does not need a ban lol.
: IMO, Skeledirge is having a bad time right now. UU gained a number of major threats that can pressure Skeledirge (
), along with some checks from OU that have always given it difficulty in that tier (
). Add in a couple of the unbanned mons (
: Torn is still very good, but I don't know that I would put it S tier right now, as UU gained some mons that annoy it. It doesn't appreciate the return of
. Needs to carry weird moves, like focus blast, in order to beat 
: Has some of the same issues as Torn. Can manage some of the above mons, but doesn't like the speed creep of the tier and has more 4MSS limitations than ever. 
: As viable as ever. The best rapid spinner in the tier with great role compression. Is threatened by some new mons, but checks a number of others. Booster energy sets can handle new set up threats. I'm seeing a lot of ice spinner for 
with Cress, Hands and other slow mons around Trick Room might not be as hopeless as it used to
in gen 7 OU
and 101 
. Neither of these Pokemon are Copium mons, as they add power and/or utility to any team that wishes to run them.
