I mean air slash has 95% accuracy so the expected is even worse, 80 expected power vs 71.25. Bleakwind vs hurricane is a real discussion tho, confusion can be nasty.
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Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
oh yeah, forgot about air slash misses
I do think that bleakwind is the better option just because it's harder to switch in when you're leveraging a 30% speed drop chance (same as scald!)
I've taken somewhat of a step back the past couple of weeks, but I've played the current meta a lot so thought I'd share my survey responses.
Enjoyment - 7, competitiveness - 8
Grouped these together, generally find the tier enjoyable atm and I think its pretty skill expressive in spite of some flaws.
Kommo o - 4
I honestly find it hard to express my frustrations with this mon. My main issue is that it feels like it removes agency from the player facing it. Whereas with other mons I consider to be major threats in the current meta you can position around them and preserve important defensive pieces, this is far more difficult with kommo as its very difficult to know what moves or tera it has. Drain punch also means its incredibly difficult to reliably put into range of a revenge killer. There are hard stops to this mon but I don't think its reasonable to fit one onto every team or even most teams, and I consider it to be an unhealthy presence and one of the main factors in skill expression being taken out of games.
Zapdos - 3
I think zapdos is borderline broken and wouldn't oppose testing it at some point but I don't believe it's a priority.
Excadrill - 2
Excadrill is one of the biggest threats in the tier and incredibly restrictive but I don't see it causing problems consistently atm and it brings some positives to the tier, if other stuff were to be removed I could see it being broken but as of now I don't think its a problem, its counterplay is a bit too splashable.
Hydrapple - 4
I think this mon is completely ridiculous, long term it has no real checks or counters and can 1v1 like 80% of the tier if not more, this in combination with regen makes it a really unhealthy presence. Ultimately think the meta with hydrapple allowed is still very skill expressive and in that regard I don't completely oppose keeping it around but overall think it should be looked at at some point.
Tornadus-Therian - 1
Honestly I don't believe this mon is problematic at all, it does the same stuff it always does, I understand why people dislike it's role but personally consider it to be a fine presence.
My preferred order of operations would be to test kommo o in the near future and then have a serious conversation about the other 4 mons here. While hydrapple would be my preferred target removing any of them would lead to major meta shifts meaning any of the others or something else could potentially become problematic, so it's hard to speculate on what would be the best direction for the tier to take.
Enjoyment - 7, competitiveness - 8
Grouped these together, generally find the tier enjoyable atm and I think its pretty skill expressive in spite of some flaws.
Kommo o - 4
I honestly find it hard to express my frustrations with this mon. My main issue is that it feels like it removes agency from the player facing it. Whereas with other mons I consider to be major threats in the current meta you can position around them and preserve important defensive pieces, this is far more difficult with kommo as its very difficult to know what moves or tera it has. Drain punch also means its incredibly difficult to reliably put into range of a revenge killer. There are hard stops to this mon but I don't think its reasonable to fit one onto every team or even most teams, and I consider it to be an unhealthy presence and one of the main factors in skill expression being taken out of games.
Zapdos - 3
I think zapdos is borderline broken and wouldn't oppose testing it at some point but I don't believe it's a priority.
Excadrill - 2
Excadrill is one of the biggest threats in the tier and incredibly restrictive but I don't see it causing problems consistently atm and it brings some positives to the tier, if other stuff were to be removed I could see it being broken but as of now I don't think its a problem, its counterplay is a bit too splashable.
Hydrapple - 4
I think this mon is completely ridiculous, long term it has no real checks or counters and can 1v1 like 80% of the tier if not more, this in combination with regen makes it a really unhealthy presence. Ultimately think the meta with hydrapple allowed is still very skill expressive and in that regard I don't completely oppose keeping it around but overall think it should be looked at at some point.
Tornadus-Therian - 1
Honestly I don't believe this mon is problematic at all, it does the same stuff it always does, I understand why people dislike it's role but personally consider it to be a fine presence.
My preferred order of operations would be to test kommo o in the near future and then have a serious conversation about the other 4 mons here. While hydrapple would be my preferred target removing any of them would lead to major meta shifts meaning any of the others or something else could potentially become problematic, so it's hard to speculate on what would be the best direction for the tier to take.
i did a survey for the first time today!! hooray!!
- 4
I like this mon, I main it, its my favorite but that still can't let me deny that this thing is incredibly busted, Has seemingly infinite coverage, egregiously frustrating setup, and all around can be a pain to beat (I have been swept by a clanger before, so yeah)
- 2
Zap is a meh, static is just really annoying, I wouldn't mind seeing it banned because maybe mienshao would pop up more
- 2
PLEASE KEEP THIS GUY, The Mold Breaker Variant Is Super Fair and Balanced, Sand Rush is just annoying but there's ways to play around that (Hydrapple.)
- 5
BAN THIS MON PLEASE I HATE FIGHTING THIS THING. Fickle Beam sucks to take when it decides to be Goku and go all out and is just really unfun to try and kill.
- 1
imo this guy sucks even though I know he's really good but he's done absolutely nothing to get me interested in using this guy
ban clanger ban apple the end
- 4I like this mon, I main it, its my favorite but that still can't let me deny that this thing is incredibly busted, Has seemingly infinite coverage, egregiously frustrating setup, and all around can be a pain to beat (I have been swept by a clanger before, so yeah)
- 2Zap is a meh, static is just really annoying, I wouldn't mind seeing it banned because maybe mienshao would pop up more
- 2PLEASE KEEP THIS GUY, The Mold Breaker Variant Is Super Fair and Balanced, Sand Rush is just annoying but there's ways to play around that (Hydrapple.)
- 5BAN THIS MON PLEASE I HATE FIGHTING THIS THING. Fickle Beam sucks to take when it decides to be Goku and go all out and is just really unfun to try and kill.
- 1imo this guy sucks even though I know he's really good but he's done absolutely nothing to get me interested in using this guy
ban clanger ban apple the end
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Since everyone else is sharing their survey responses, thought it'd fit to share my own.
Enjoyment/Competitiveness: 8 for both
With all the obscene broken stuff out of the tier, the meta feels more balanced. In my opinion, I think that VoltTurn Bulky Offense / Bulky Balance as a teamstyle feels the most dominant, but it's not an oppressive presence and you can get mileage out of other team styles as well.
: 3
The sheer surprise factor of physical/special, what setup move, tera types, support moves, etc makes this hard to counter. There really isn't a move that punishes all of Kommo-o's diverse movesets, but there still exist viable checks/counters like Tinkaton or Skeledirge and I don't have to pull shitmons from PU to deal with the dino. However, Kommo's diverse movesets still do contribute to an annoying guessing game that punishes you hard if you don't get it right. Overall, I'd say that it's worth a suspect.
: 3
Yellow KFC bucket here discourages physical moves, while providing checks/counters to a lot of mons, including the aforementioned Kommo-o. My issue with this thing is that it makes the metagame so much more bulky. Tera Electric has become a legitimate option for many physical mons, despite Electric as a defensive type being alright at best. The option to leave your Pokemon paralyzed just by switching in is a pretty scary prospect for many offensive mons and I'd honestly love to see how the metagame would develop if Zapdos was gone.
: 2
Driller isn't as broken as the top 2, since many rockers/hazard setters like Cobalion beat this 1v1 or at the very least, force a tera. Also, flyers like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and Torn-T all beat this, especially Zapdos and Torn-T threatening it with Heat Wave. Not broken, don't think it's worth it to suspect.
4
Such an annoying Mon to deal with. It's hard to defensively check/counter this since it leverages its bulk in tandem with its coverage/SpA stat. Even things like Tinkaton get worn down over time while Hydrapple just bounces out and gets its 33% health back a la Regenerator. It doesn't help that a wallbreakers like Apple also gets to provide some decent defensive action. I think that this warrants at least a suspect.
: 2
Not a problem, does a lot of things, not overcentralizing, should have put this as a 1. Idk why I put this as a 2.
Enjoyment/Competitiveness: 8 for both
With all the obscene broken stuff out of the tier, the meta feels more balanced. In my opinion, I think that VoltTurn Bulky Offense / Bulky Balance as a teamstyle feels the most dominant, but it's not an oppressive presence and you can get mileage out of other team styles as well.
: 3The sheer surprise factor of physical/special, what setup move, tera types, support moves, etc makes this hard to counter. There really isn't a move that punishes all of Kommo-o's diverse movesets, but there still exist viable checks/counters like Tinkaton or Skeledirge and I don't have to pull shitmons from PU to deal with the dino. However, Kommo's diverse movesets still do contribute to an annoying guessing game that punishes you hard if you don't get it right. Overall, I'd say that it's worth a suspect.
: 3Yellow KFC bucket here discourages physical moves, while providing checks/counters to a lot of mons, including the aforementioned Kommo-o. My issue with this thing is that it makes the metagame so much more bulky. Tera Electric has become a legitimate option for many physical mons, despite Electric as a defensive type being alright at best. The option to leave your Pokemon paralyzed just by switching in is a pretty scary prospect for many offensive mons and I'd honestly love to see how the metagame would develop if Zapdos was gone.
: 2Driller isn't as broken as the top 2, since many rockers/hazard setters like Cobalion beat this 1v1 or at the very least, force a tera. Also, flyers like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and Torn-T all beat this, especially Zapdos and Torn-T threatening it with Heat Wave. Not broken, don't think it's worth it to suspect.
4Such an annoying Mon to deal with. It's hard to defensively check/counter this since it leverages its bulk in tandem with its coverage/SpA stat. Even things like Tinkaton get worn down over time while Hydrapple just bounces out and gets its 33% health back a la Regenerator. It doesn't help that a wallbreakers like Apple also gets to provide some decent defensive action. I think that this warrants at least a suspect.
: 2Not a problem, does a lot of things, not overcentralizing, should have put this as a 1. Idk why I put this as a 2.
people are sharing their survey responses so i guess i’m gonna do that too
enjoyment: 7
It feels a lot easier to build teams in uu than ou, which is what mainly contributed to me giving a 7.
competitiveness: 6
There’s quite a lot of cheesy setup stuff and stuff that can just deal damage way too easily. Fortunately, some of them did pop up in the survey
Kommo-o: 5 (if i remember correctly)
There are a LOT of different sets, each with slightly different checks. Using skeledirge to check kommo-o? Well, tera normal is pretty much immune to common dirge sets thanks to soundproof. Hazing? Taunt ddance kommo-o. Dtail? Substitute. There are just too many sets to account for, and this is compounded by tera, which is why i feel that kommo-o is one of, if not the most important pokemon to suspect.
Zapdos: 3
Zapdos is an extremely frustrating pokemon to deal with, thanks to its movepool, ability and typing. It’s so annoying that pokemon such as rhyperior and sandy shocks are seeing much more usage to deal with it. With rain’s ban, I feel that there is at least consistent counterplay and zapdos is not the most problematic pokemon in the tier for the time being. However I wouldn’t mind if it is suspected in the future. It tends to be a little rng dependent and forces usage of stuff like rhyperior, which is dead weight outside of certain matchups.
Excadrill: 1
For the time being, counterplay such as hydrapple and physdef slowking and zapdos exist. I feel that excadrill’s removal from the tier would restrict teambuilding, since it’s the tier’s best form of hazard removal. Until hydrapple or zapdos is removed, i feel that the benefits drill brings outweigh its downsides.
Hydrapple: 4
Hydrapple is really hard to deal with. No matter what set it runs, it is capable of exerting immense pressure, even on things that should be able to switch into it, like av torn. For example:
+2 252+ SpA Hydrapple Draco Meteor vs. 208 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 279-328 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now, np hydrapple doesn’t usually invest so much into spatk, but tornadus is still unable to ohko hydrapple, and the damage hydrapple takes can just be recovered by merely switching in and out a couple of times. However, hydrapple doesn’t even need to setup to inflict ridiculous damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydrapple Fickle Beam vs. 208 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 258-304 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(this is assuming 160 bp fickle)
Honestly, I think hydrapple might be worse than kommo-o, especially after considering what others have said about it on this thread
Torn-t: 2
I don’t feel that tornadus is an issue at all. The most “controversial” set imo is nasty plot, but even that set has issues; these sets usually invest heavily into spatk, which doesn’t help with its already mediocre bulk. Without av, torn is just not that bulky. Without boots, it gets worn down by rocks, which makes it a much less consistent switch-in. Additionally, all sets struggle with not having reliable stab, and coverage moves with shitty accuracy. Tornadus is amazing pokemon, but not broken
thanks to everyone who posted their survey responses so that I could remember what i responded with.
wow this was long af
enjoyment: 7
It feels a lot easier to build teams in uu than ou, which is what mainly contributed to me giving a 7.
competitiveness: 6
There’s quite a lot of cheesy setup stuff and stuff that can just deal damage way too easily. Fortunately, some of them did pop up in the survey
Kommo-o: 5 (if i remember correctly)
There are a LOT of different sets, each with slightly different checks. Using skeledirge to check kommo-o? Well, tera normal is pretty much immune to common dirge sets thanks to soundproof. Hazing? Taunt ddance kommo-o. Dtail? Substitute. There are just too many sets to account for, and this is compounded by tera, which is why i feel that kommo-o is one of, if not the most important pokemon to suspect.
Zapdos: 3
Zapdos is an extremely frustrating pokemon to deal with, thanks to its movepool, ability and typing. It’s so annoying that pokemon such as rhyperior and sandy shocks are seeing much more usage to deal with it. With rain’s ban, I feel that there is at least consistent counterplay and zapdos is not the most problematic pokemon in the tier for the time being. However I wouldn’t mind if it is suspected in the future. It tends to be a little rng dependent and forces usage of stuff like rhyperior, which is dead weight outside of certain matchups.
Excadrill: 1
For the time being, counterplay such as hydrapple and physdef slowking and zapdos exist. I feel that excadrill’s removal from the tier would restrict teambuilding, since it’s the tier’s best form of hazard removal. Until hydrapple or zapdos is removed, i feel that the benefits drill brings outweigh its downsides.
Hydrapple: 4
Hydrapple is really hard to deal with. No matter what set it runs, it is capable of exerting immense pressure, even on things that should be able to switch into it, like av torn. For example:
+2 252+ SpA Hydrapple Draco Meteor vs. 208 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 279-328 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now, np hydrapple doesn’t usually invest so much into spatk, but tornadus is still unable to ohko hydrapple, and the damage hydrapple takes can just be recovered by merely switching in and out a couple of times. However, hydrapple doesn’t even need to setup to inflict ridiculous damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydrapple Fickle Beam vs. 208 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 258-304 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(this is assuming 160 bp fickle)
Honestly, I think hydrapple might be worse than kommo-o, especially after considering what others have said about it on this thread
Torn-t: 2
I don’t feel that tornadus is an issue at all. The most “controversial” set imo is nasty plot, but even that set has issues; these sets usually invest heavily into spatk, which doesn’t help with its already mediocre bulk. Without av, torn is just not that bulky. Without boots, it gets worn down by rocks, which makes it a much less consistent switch-in. Additionally, all sets struggle with not having reliable stab, and coverage moves with shitty accuracy. Tornadus is amazing pokemon, but not broken
thanks to everyone who posted their survey responses so that I could remember what i responded with.
wow this was long af
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Survey time woo
- 4
I dont exactly think this thing is busted but i do dislike the volatility it can have. Usually you assume that its the standard Tera Electric Taunt Dragon Dance set, so you play to try and pivot a physdef mon like Hydrapple or Hippowdon in, and then it Clangerous Souls and now youre in a predicament as Hydrapple cant take boosted special hits that well so if Kommo teras it wins the 1v1, and Hippo cant do that much to a +1 defense kommo without roar, which is rough to fit due to it wanting to slot both rocks for support and a rock attack to hit fliers. Now thats not to say Clangerous Souls is as reliable or as good as Taunt DD, but that fact that it can win or punch a giant hole in a team due to the opponent not knowing what set it is doesn't really sit right with me. Of course theres dirge who can at least sort of 1v1 pmuch all sets but dirge is kinda eh atm.
- 1
I dont rlly see what the issue with these two is, and they both feel super important to the tier so removing them would just be a mistake.
Drill feels rlly held back by its speed tier and needs to get both an SD and a spin to get the boosts it needs to easily beat up teams, which is unreliable because needing 2 whole turns is pain because you're usually not gonna get an opportunity to get both unless the opponent is severely weakened and in a position where you can nab both boosts, in which case i think drill is just kinda cleaning and not rlly mowing down teams.
As for Torn I feel the Nasty Plot sets are whatre being addressed here to which i say they just dont seem consistent, both because of the accuracy and because they just seem to need a MU where it can actually get the plot off. In general I dont think its done anything any more crazy than setup mons and its not like its checks are that different than the average bulky torn save for maybe harc not being as good due to it tending to run focus.
- 2
I dont rlly see these two as broken either but they are a tad bit more annoying than the previous two and i can kinda see where people so i bumped them up to 2.
Hydrapple isnt rlly smth you can super easily prep for in the builder but in my experience having a plan for it isnt rlly the craziest thing to do. It generally dislikes special attackers and doesnt have that many safe opportunities to switch in and set up other than Drill or Rhyp, the ladder of which sometimes runs coverage for it. Ofc tera can mess with things like Mamoswine or Latios but leaves it more open to things like Drill or Iron crown, while tink is pmuch always a pain in the ass for it due to resisting stabs and having encore. Ofc the thing that seems annoying is just how much it shifts with tera so i can kinda get why people dislike it, and while i generally think this is what tera does and that its not as volatile as other tera abusers, i think the point is fair enough to bump it up.
For Zapdos im not rlly sure what the issue is other then Static being annoying. I agree that it is indeed annoying but idk if id say its banworthy because of it. Its not like its insanely difficult to answer as we have stuff like Rhyperior and sandy shocks to switch in and Hisuian Arcanine and the aforementioned Rhyp to force it out. Dont got much to say here other than its a 2 bc yes, static is annoying.
- 4I dont exactly think this thing is busted but i do dislike the volatility it can have. Usually you assume that its the standard Tera Electric Taunt Dragon Dance set, so you play to try and pivot a physdef mon like Hydrapple or Hippowdon in, and then it Clangerous Souls and now youre in a predicament as Hydrapple cant take boosted special hits that well so if Kommo teras it wins the 1v1, and Hippo cant do that much to a +1 defense kommo without roar, which is rough to fit due to it wanting to slot both rocks for support and a rock attack to hit fliers. Now thats not to say Clangerous Souls is as reliable or as good as Taunt DD, but that fact that it can win or punch a giant hole in a team due to the opponent not knowing what set it is doesn't really sit right with me. Of course theres dirge who can at least sort of 1v1 pmuch all sets but dirge is kinda eh atm.
- 1I dont rlly see what the issue with these two is, and they both feel super important to the tier so removing them would just be a mistake.
Drill feels rlly held back by its speed tier and needs to get both an SD and a spin to get the boosts it needs to easily beat up teams, which is unreliable because needing 2 whole turns is pain because you're usually not gonna get an opportunity to get both unless the opponent is severely weakened and in a position where you can nab both boosts, in which case i think drill is just kinda cleaning and not rlly mowing down teams.
As for Torn I feel the Nasty Plot sets are whatre being addressed here to which i say they just dont seem consistent, both because of the accuracy and because they just seem to need a MU where it can actually get the plot off. In general I dont think its done anything any more crazy than setup mons and its not like its checks are that different than the average bulky torn save for maybe harc not being as good due to it tending to run focus.
- 2I dont rlly see these two as broken either but they are a tad bit more annoying than the previous two and i can kinda see where people so i bumped them up to 2.
Hydrapple isnt rlly smth you can super easily prep for in the builder but in my experience having a plan for it isnt rlly the craziest thing to do. It generally dislikes special attackers and doesnt have that many safe opportunities to switch in and set up other than Drill or Rhyp, the ladder of which sometimes runs coverage for it. Ofc tera can mess with things like Mamoswine or Latios but leaves it more open to things like Drill or Iron crown, while tink is pmuch always a pain in the ass for it due to resisting stabs and having encore. Ofc the thing that seems annoying is just how much it shifts with tera so i can kinda get why people dislike it, and while i generally think this is what tera does and that its not as volatile as other tera abusers, i think the point is fair enough to bump it up.
For Zapdos im not rlly sure what the issue is other then Static being annoying. I agree that it is indeed annoying but idk if id say its banworthy because of it. Its not like its insanely difficult to answer as we have stuff like Rhyperior and sandy shocks to switch in and Hisuian Arcanine and the aforementioned Rhyp to force it out. Dont got much to say here other than its a 2 bc yes, static is annoying.
1It does not deserve to be banned at all, and banning them will cause many disadvantages to tier.
2Hydrapple possesses obvious weaknesses such as speed and type, and it takes a lot of work to make its np set untenable.
zapdos was quite suspect as of last month, but now that rhyperior and sandy shocks are proving to be viable, it is not strong enough to be banned here either.
3It is bulky to bullshit, withstands moves that exploit its own weaknesses with impunity, and creates 6-0s with ease. skeledirge is currently greatly reduced in viability, and no pokemon can safely stop any set of it. While there are some mons that can stop major sets with some certainty, if those were enough, it would not have been banned in SS.
4No one set is broken, but all of them on the same mon with very little indication as to which it is until it starts clicking buttons is problematic, especially given Kommo-o's tendencies to blow big holes in teams if you guess wrong. There's not much in the way of universal counterplay either- even something like dirge is forced to trade into some sets and is liable to be blown up by a random specs Kommo-o. It's definitely suspect-worthy.
2Outside of rain it's not broken, and rain is not really a concern now that Pelipper's banned. It's a very strong mon, but there are plenty of solid mons that beat it, and Zap's liable to randomly lose matchups it should win off of Hurricane misses. Not really worthy of tiering action unless rain gets good again.
2Another very strong mon, but not broken I don't think. It needs to have a boost from both SD and either Sand Rush or Rapid Spin to sweep, and can't ever run all the coverage it wants to.
3This thing has uncomfortably strong offenses for how hard to kill it is. Its longevity and power make it really difficult to check defensively. However, its poor speed is very exploitable, and it doesn't take special hits all that well. Maybe worth a suspect, but Kommo-o's definitely the priority.
3TBH I probably should have given this a two. It's a very similar profile to Zapdos, but I find it more of a pain to deal with than Zap because of its higher speed and access to Knock Off. It's definitely less broken than Hydrapple though, I don't really think it needs tiering action.
Survey responses woooh
Enjoyability/Competitevness: 7
I enjoy the tier quite a lot, but there def are some improvements that need to be made.
3
Prob would have put this at a 4 after thinking it through, but kommo-o is a slot machine on which moveset its using. No one set is really broken, but all of them combined make it a pain to deal with. But if it stays I won't cry a river.
4
Prob would have put this at a 5 actually, but FUCK THIS MON. And this is someone who loves using zapdos in OU. Simply put, unless you are running one of rhyperior or sandy shocks, zapdos will fuck you up. And even still, shocks has to run power gem to 2hit ko the defensive variants, and power gem is not really useful outside of hitting zapdos, with only lokix (which already doesn't like taking t-bolt), mamoswine (can't take 2 earth powers) and alolatales (which is very niche). So one of its supposed best switch ins has to tech a specific move in order to beat it. Yeah, no, not healthy. Rhyperior is a good ass mon, but I don't want to have to use it constantly. Offensive pressure is best at keeping it at bay, but most mons don't like switching into its stabs. Harcanine is 4hit ko'd by volt switch, mamo can deal good damage with ice shard but is 2hit ko'd by hurricane, rockpon doesn't like taking hurricanes, latios doesn't like taking hurricanes and is forced into specs to threaten an ohko. And that's the only mons that can threaten it for meaningful damage while not getting obliterated by one of its moves. The only thing even remotely holding it back is its slight 4mss, with it wanting all of volt switch, hurricane, heat wave, roost and t-bolt, but t-bolt isn't needed as much when volt switch still hits for decent damage, and hurricanes somewhat unreliability, but a mon that can win off of 70% chances constantly doesn't seem healthy to me.
TLDR because I ranted for too long, but ban zapdos. It forces too much defensive play and has limited switch ins.
1
I don't see why this is being suspected. Maybe sand variants but idk. As others have said, it needs two boosts to be that threat it wants to, but it also needs to accomplish the goal of keeping off hazards as its by far our best spinner (I'm sorry quaquaval). This limits its sweeping potential as it has to do this role otherwise its team will falter. It's stuck trying to do two jobs at once and the hazard clearing duty is more important. If we get something like treads in the future to alleviate this, I could see it becoming broken, but def not rn.
2
Idk where all this apple hate came from, but hydrapple struggles with a mediocre defensive typing and its slow speed. It has to tera in order to be unkillable and that isn't really worth it when tera is a really important tool. It also doesn't like taking special hits so that's a big issue. Just doesn't feel broken, but I might experiment with it more.
1
Nah, this thing ain't broken. NP sets are the closest thing to 'broken' and yet they are still far away from it. It needs to invest in special attack, which makes it frailer, it can sometimes struggle in picking up kills it needs so thats an issue. I would like to see a bulkier set like SD gliscor in OU because that is a disgusting set up there, and torn seems like it has lots of those traits here.
Enjoyability/Competitevness: 7
I enjoy the tier quite a lot, but there def are some improvements that need to be made.
3Prob would have put this at a 4 after thinking it through, but kommo-o is a slot machine on which moveset its using. No one set is really broken, but all of them combined make it a pain to deal with. But if it stays I won't cry a river.
4Prob would have put this at a 5 actually, but FUCK THIS MON. And this is someone who loves using zapdos in OU. Simply put, unless you are running one of rhyperior or sandy shocks, zapdos will fuck you up. And even still, shocks has to run power gem to 2hit ko the defensive variants, and power gem is not really useful outside of hitting zapdos, with only lokix (which already doesn't like taking t-bolt), mamoswine (can't take 2 earth powers) and alolatales (which is very niche). So one of its supposed best switch ins has to tech a specific move in order to beat it. Yeah, no, not healthy. Rhyperior is a good ass mon, but I don't want to have to use it constantly. Offensive pressure is best at keeping it at bay, but most mons don't like switching into its stabs. Harcanine is 4hit ko'd by volt switch, mamo can deal good damage with ice shard but is 2hit ko'd by hurricane, rockpon doesn't like taking hurricanes, latios doesn't like taking hurricanes and is forced into specs to threaten an ohko. And that's the only mons that can threaten it for meaningful damage while not getting obliterated by one of its moves. The only thing even remotely holding it back is its slight 4mss, with it wanting all of volt switch, hurricane, heat wave, roost and t-bolt, but t-bolt isn't needed as much when volt switch still hits for decent damage, and hurricanes somewhat unreliability, but a mon that can win off of 70% chances constantly doesn't seem healthy to me.
TLDR because I ranted for too long, but ban zapdos. It forces too much defensive play and has limited switch ins.
1I don't see why this is being suspected. Maybe sand variants but idk. As others have said, it needs two boosts to be that threat it wants to, but it also needs to accomplish the goal of keeping off hazards as its by far our best spinner (I'm sorry quaquaval). This limits its sweeping potential as it has to do this role otherwise its team will falter. It's stuck trying to do two jobs at once and the hazard clearing duty is more important. If we get something like treads in the future to alleviate this, I could see it becoming broken, but def not rn.
2Idk where all this apple hate came from, but hydrapple struggles with a mediocre defensive typing and its slow speed. It has to tera in order to be unkillable and that isn't really worth it when tera is a really important tool. It also doesn't like taking special hits so that's a big issue. Just doesn't feel broken, but I might experiment with it more.
1Nah, this thing ain't broken. NP sets are the closest thing to 'broken' and yet they are still far away from it. It needs to invest in special attack, which makes it frailer, it can sometimes struggle in picking up kills it needs so thats an issue. I would like to see a bulkier set like SD gliscor in OU because that is a disgusting set up there, and torn seems like it has lots of those traits here.
survey stuff
- 5
5's probably too much, but I don't like this guy and i want him to get banned. He is almost impossible to predict and has too many powerful sets. DD is controversial but not the worst. Physical Clanger is scarier but kinda managable I guess? Special Clanger has like no switch-ins besides skeledirge, and even then skeledirge is famous for being forced to tera and if it does it can get 2HKOed by tera normal boomburst. those are just the ones I think are the scariest, since this Mon has like 20 sets. On top of that, Kommo-o's great movepool means the checks to him aren't usually concrete. I could continue but you get the point, ban kommo-o
- 2
scary Mon but has its benefits and isn't broken right now. honestly hope it stays since its a great blanket check and we don't have a lot of other mons to punish contact
- 1
We're not getting rid of the only good spinner. Mold breaker sets are fine. Sand Rush is annoying but there is plenty of counterplay. he's great support and good at offense. Just a good Mon, not broken but good
- 3
Ok I guess I'm missing something but I'm kinda fine with hydrapple. He's a good breaker but he isn't that hard to beat personally. I'm not opposed to banning him if everyone else wants to but I personally like him here.
- 1
kinda annoying at times but not broken
Enjoyability:9
Competitiveness:8
Honestly I really like the meta rn. only kommo-o feels too powerful at the moment. everything else feels fine. There's a small amount of big threats, the tier's slowed down a bit. Honestly happy with it.
- 55's probably too much, but I don't like this guy and i want him to get banned. He is almost impossible to predict and has too many powerful sets. DD is controversial but not the worst. Physical Clanger is scarier but kinda managable I guess? Special Clanger has like no switch-ins besides skeledirge, and even then skeledirge is famous for being forced to tera and if it does it can get 2HKOed by tera normal boomburst. those are just the ones I think are the scariest, since this Mon has like 20 sets. On top of that, Kommo-o's great movepool means the checks to him aren't usually concrete. I could continue but you get the point, ban kommo-o
- 2scary Mon but has its benefits and isn't broken right now. honestly hope it stays since its a great blanket check and we don't have a lot of other mons to punish contact
- 1We're not getting rid of the only good spinner. Mold breaker sets are fine. Sand Rush is annoying but there is plenty of counterplay. he's great support and good at offense. Just a good Mon, not broken but good
- 3Ok I guess I'm missing something but I'm kinda fine with hydrapple. He's a good breaker but he isn't that hard to beat personally. I'm not opposed to banning him if everyone else wants to but I personally like him here.
- 1kinda annoying at times but not broken
Enjoyability:9
Competitiveness:8
Honestly I really like the meta rn. only kommo-o feels too powerful at the moment. everything else feels fine. There's a small amount of big threats, the tier's slowed down a bit. Honestly happy with it.
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: 4Really, on his own he will almost never be a threat, but the fact is that he is never alone. Those who want to abuse Kommo-o's versatility are going to surround him with equipment that allows safe entrances, paralyze his rivals or lock them in movements, all so that at the best moment Kommo-o can enter and start clicking. You never know what you're going to encounter, what tera he's going to use, whether it's better to paralyze him or poison him, when you finally understand the version of Kommo-o that the enemy is using against you, it may be too late.
: 2I really like this mon and without its presence the contact attack pokemon would level up, it is a good pivot and keeps Lokix, Excadrill, Okidogi, among others, in place. It is usually a bit annoying, but precisely being one of the top 3 in the meta it is your duty to build something against it.
: 1very versatile, there is no object that you must carry, unlike zapdos. Its primary function is to clean the field, and its second role is at your discretion. I've seen Excadrill as a special defensive, attempted Sweeper with SD + Rapid Spin (there are too many turns for it to be dangerous) and even once in a while they surprise me with the scarf version of him. I myself enjoy using it with Rock Blast with the die and Tera Rock, which ensures the kill of zapdos / Tornadus without even investing in SD. His presence is necessary in the meta, and he is not broken in any way.
: 3Annoying are light words. He can't make a match on his own, but what's worrying about this mon is his ability to do a lot of damage in one turn and then just laugh at the damage done to him in return just by leaving the field. It is not a Pokémon weak to rocks and its most common tera is steel, so it is not really punished much for entering and leaving the field, unlike Tornadus.
: 1Currently it's like he only has one set, it's hard to find him outside of his assault vest. His role as a pivot and reducing the enemy's damage while finding a space for his team is admirable, but he suffers too much against Zapdos since half of his attacks are physical, and he is hardly going to be a fearsome enemy in 1v1, even with Nasty Plot. For me he stays.
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Survey:
Metagame enjoyment 7/10, competitiveness 8/10. SVUU is skill expressive and usually not boring but its not perfect and thats fine.
- 1/5, SD exca is really good but its just another threat imo. Its not as bulky and high longevity as Hydrapple or can boost both stats in 1 move like Kommo-o can, so its not broken with tera to me.
- Torn-t is very healthy for the tier and not at all broke, so 1/5.
- 3/5, I think Static is really obnoxious since its often best to just knock it and play into Static. Zapdos is also annoying to pivot around but with good play its not broken at all this way.
- 3/5, if you give Hydrapple long enough it will break through almost any team with Tera and rocks up. Insanely bulky with regen and hits really hard, and is in general really difficult to outlast. Hydrapple holds back fat a lot and is still a very good defensive presence while being a wincon.
- 3/5, I almost put this at a 4/5. Kommo-o is really hard to scout consistently, and is extremely dangerous with Terastalization to many healthy teams. Kommo-o also sets up against a lot in the current metagame, and it takes a lot of resources to beat consistently.
Metagame enjoyment 7/10, competitiveness 8/10. SVUU is skill expressive and usually not boring but its not perfect and thats fine.
- 1/5, SD exca is really good but its just another threat imo. Its not as bulky and high longevity as Hydrapple or can boost both stats in 1 move like Kommo-o can, so its not broken with tera to me. - Torn-t is very healthy for the tier and not at all broke, so 1/5. - 3/5, I think Static is really obnoxious since its often best to just knock it and play into Static. Zapdos is also annoying to pivot around but with good play its not broken at all this way. - 3/5, if you give Hydrapple long enough it will break through almost any team with Tera and rocks up. Insanely bulky with regen and hits really hard, and is in general really difficult to outlast. Hydrapple holds back fat a lot and is still a very good defensive presence while being a wincon. - 3/5, I almost put this at a 4/5. Kommo-o is really hard to scout consistently, and is extremely dangerous with Terastalization to many healthy teams. Kommo-o also sets up against a lot in the current metagame, and it takes a lot of resources to beat consistently.
1: idt its broken, it has many issues with rock slide vs iron head, and even then often times the same pokemon can check it fairly well 1: why is it here? curious 3: bullshit with its attacking sets... if it drops volt on off then smth like slowking becomes invalid and av torn-t cant deal with it by forcing it to switch out and knock off its boots. Static is way to annoying for many things but i think its alr 4: i think hydrapple can be bs at times with its tera type, fickle beam 30% odds and draco just being a nuke, often times it can be its way through by being very fat, strong, and generally u dont want to lose a mon to tera steel/fairy hydrapple which can make it much more annoying to take on esp if you lose smth to it since its very bulky by default. Specs is also bs at times as its able to drop stuff esp if its unrevealed. It is also somewaht getting into speed creep wars often times - 4: very bs, hard to predict, and with tera is often times hard to predict right what its gonig to do without feeling like you might lose on the spot. Even nicher sets like SD can just find a turn and exploit the opponent by taking advantage of them not knowing what clanger set it might beSince usage rates for may are out, I figured it would be interesting to look what July drops are projected to look like
Crown is still projected to rise to OU, so we're pretty much guaranteed to lose it. I don't think this'll be that game changing. Crown is still great but it has been falling out of relevancy a bit. It's still popular(#9 in usage) but I haven't seen it talked about as much. fun to see some form of cobalion in Ou.
Moltres is also projected to rise to OU but that doesn't matter to us.
to no one's surprise, These two are projected to rise. It's nice to see cobal continue to succeed in uu, and Rhyperior is nice to see too. Not much to say here.
more surprising was thundurus Therian being projected to rise. I guess being banned from ru reignited interest in this mon. Kinda funny that as its projected to rise, its fellow B rank electric type Raikou is projected to fall to pu.
On to the Ou drops, which are more interesting
This one is the only one that doesn't really matter. sticky web was mid when it was here so not much will happen
Wake is holding on for dear life in Ou and barely missed the cutoff, but without it sun probably won't do much.At least it has Venusaur unlike last time, so there's still some hope.
Interesting for sure. Great speed tier and Contrary Leaf storm seems broken, but stuff like lokix and Scizor might make it fine? I don't know it seems broken, but there's only one way to be sure
how is this gonna drop and not Meow I thought meow was worse? anyways this also seems kinda broken. it would be the fastest thing in the tier and can hit almost everything in the tier for big damage. kinda feels like iron Boulder 2.0.
game changing.we'd finally have a good spiker(shocks is alright but this is such an upgrade) and a decent hydrapple switch-in (it would need spdef investment )that isn't enamorus. It also functions as a Lokix switch-in that is spikes immune and forces fire punch into ursaluna.
overall the future of UU is looking pretty interesting. I'd be interested in see what every thinks
Crown is still projected to rise to OU, so we're pretty much guaranteed to lose it. I don't think this'll be that game changing. Crown is still great but it has been falling out of relevancy a bit. It's still popular(#9 in usage) but I haven't seen it talked about as much. fun to see some form of cobalion in Ou.Moltres is also projected to rise to OU but that doesn't matter to us.
to no one's surprise, These two are projected to rise. It's nice to see cobal continue to succeed in uu, and Rhyperior is nice to see too. Not much to say here.more surprising was thundurus Therian being projected to rise. I guess being banned from ru reignited interest in this mon. Kinda funny that as its projected to rise, its fellow B rank electric type Raikou is projected to fall to pu.On to the Ou drops, which are more interesting
This one is the only one that doesn't really matter. sticky web was mid when it was here so not much will happen Wake is holding on for dear life in Ou and barely missed the cutoff, but without it sun probably won't do much.At least it has Venusaur unlike last time, so there's still some hope. Interesting for sure. Great speed tier and Contrary Leaf storm seems broken, but stuff like lokix and Scizor might make it fine? I don't know it seems broken, but there's only one way to be sure how is this gonna drop and not Meow I thought meow was worse? anyways this also seems kinda broken. it would be the fastest thing in the tier and can hit almost everything in the tier for big damage. kinda feels like iron Boulder 2.0. game changing.we'd finally have a good spiker(shocks is alright but this is such an upgrade) and a decent hydrapple switch-in (it would need spdef investment )that isn't enamorus. It also functions as a Lokix switch-in that is spikes immune and forces fire punch into ursaluna.overall the future of UU is looking pretty interesting. I'd be interested in see what every thinks
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is the july rise cut-off 4.52%?
If it is, moltres might rise to ou as it's already on 4.52% ish and seems to be on the rise, not too relevant as it wasn't great here but notable
If it is, moltres might rise to ou as it's already on 4.52% ish and seems to be on the rise, not too relevant as it wasn't great here but notable
idk, i actually prefer donphan over exca because it has ice, thats really it, other than that idk why you wouldn't use excadrill
AV phan is solid on hyperoffensive builds as one of the few zap checks and volt blockers, exca is weak to heat wave
Current State of SV UU
I'm making this post with the knowledge that any action this month is unrealistic and with shifts next month it's unlikely that any serious tiering action can be taken until we've dealt with the fallout of that, however I believe that late July/August would be a good time to seriously consider what we want this tier to be going forward. If I were to describe the current feeling among the playerbase it would be that a significant minority hate the tier, probably around 20-30%, while the rest of the playerbase is largely split between indifference and generally enjoying the tier. This makes for a weird dynamic, where there's a genuine desire for change between the people who hate it and a lot of people who are indifferent towards it, without any real agreement on what the target for a potential suspect should be, as highlighted by recent survey scores. I would like to note that anecdotally some people have expressed to me that they feel differently about some of the mons on the last survey after reading my post on my responses, however i think it's still unlikely that anything would experience a huge surge in support if we did another survey now. all that being said, where does this leave us? I am personally of the belief that the best path forward would be to run a suspect on one of the mons with marginal support, for two main reasons:
1. For such a significant number of people to dislike the tier is incredibly undesirable, and I'm concerned that if we continue to take no action that a lot of them will simply quit.
2. I think allowing people a chance to focus their thoughts on if only one of apple/torn/zapdos/excadrill deserves to be banned would be productive. People who feel strongly about one of them and are indifferent to the others are more likely to change their mind on a mon currently being tested, and the support for a ban might end up being stronger than expected.
The flipside of point 2 is that this dynamic could lead to a mon being scapegoated so to speak (ie a mon with a lesser effect on the dynamics of the tier being banned for the sake of banning something without actually improving the tier for people who have issues with it), and this is why I feel that the choice of which mon should be tested is very important and limited to the previously surveyed mons. With that being said, I've ordered them below from what I believe to be the strongest suspect candidate to the weakest.
I feel that zapdos has the best overlap between realistically being able to generate support for a ban, being (in my opinion) banworthy, and it's removal causing a significant shift in the tier. Make no mistake, if we do ban zapdos the fallout would be massive and would likely lead to other bans, however if we examine this mon in a vacuum is it really a healthy presence? Sure, rhyperior and shocks are decent mons, and thund-t is pretty great, but the pool of real checks to zapdos pretty much begins and ends there and none of them are particularly sturdy into it long term. Of course it can also be offensively pressured and it doesn't want to take knock, and it brings positives to the tier which will have an impact on how people feel regardless of whether it should or not, but I think it's an ideal candidate for this sort of test precisely because there's no guarantee it gets banned or even gets close.
I'm not gonna go too in depth on this because I don't personally feel torn is broken in the current meta however I feel that people who take issue with the tier the most generally really want this mon banned, the reality is just that there is not enough support for it rn and testing it won't change that, however i still feel it'd be preferable to an apple or drill test. If zapdos were to get banned this would be next though.
Personally strongly support banning/testing this mon at some point however the reality is it has a pretty limited effect on overall dynamics, with a potential drill ban being the only real fallout i could see. Think there's a very high chance it could fall into the scapegoat category of people voting to ban it just because it's up for testing, and is the most likely of these to be banned in a potential suspect test, but ultimately i believe any test on this should only happen when there is more significant support in the community.
I think drill is kinda clearly not broken as of this moment and seeing as it's one of two viable forms of hazard removal it just doesn't make sense to test, the support isn't there and it's not impacting things significantly rn.
Ultimately can't speak for everyone and for all I know no one agrees with a word i said here but that's why I encourage anyone who feels strongly that the tier is in a bad state rn to share their thoughts, there are also less intrusive forms of action we can take if there's a desire to preserve the current main dynamics of the tier and the tier could look very different by the time august comes but I wanted to start the discussion now regardless as i feel there's a relatively coherent desire for change atm.
I'm making this post with the knowledge that any action this month is unrealistic and with shifts next month it's unlikely that any serious tiering action can be taken until we've dealt with the fallout of that, however I believe that late July/August would be a good time to seriously consider what we want this tier to be going forward. If I were to describe the current feeling among the playerbase it would be that a significant minority hate the tier, probably around 20-30%, while the rest of the playerbase is largely split between indifference and generally enjoying the tier. This makes for a weird dynamic, where there's a genuine desire for change between the people who hate it and a lot of people who are indifferent towards it, without any real agreement on what the target for a potential suspect should be, as highlighted by recent survey scores. I would like to note that anecdotally some people have expressed to me that they feel differently about some of the mons on the last survey after reading my post on my responses, however i think it's still unlikely that anything would experience a huge surge in support if we did another survey now. all that being said, where does this leave us? I am personally of the belief that the best path forward would be to run a suspect on one of the mons with marginal support, for two main reasons:
1. For such a significant number of people to dislike the tier is incredibly undesirable, and I'm concerned that if we continue to take no action that a lot of them will simply quit.
2. I think allowing people a chance to focus their thoughts on if only one of apple/torn/zapdos/excadrill deserves to be banned would be productive. People who feel strongly about one of them and are indifferent to the others are more likely to change their mind on a mon currently being tested, and the support for a ban might end up being stronger than expected.
The flipside of point 2 is that this dynamic could lead to a mon being scapegoated so to speak (ie a mon with a lesser effect on the dynamics of the tier being banned for the sake of banning something without actually improving the tier for people who have issues with it), and this is why I feel that the choice of which mon should be tested is very important and limited to the previously surveyed mons. With that being said, I've ordered them below from what I believe to be the strongest suspect candidate to the weakest.
I feel that zapdos has the best overlap between realistically being able to generate support for a ban, being (in my opinion) banworthy, and it's removal causing a significant shift in the tier. Make no mistake, if we do ban zapdos the fallout would be massive and would likely lead to other bans, however if we examine this mon in a vacuum is it really a healthy presence? Sure, rhyperior and shocks are decent mons, and thund-t is pretty great, but the pool of real checks to zapdos pretty much begins and ends there and none of them are particularly sturdy into it long term. Of course it can also be offensively pressured and it doesn't want to take knock, and it brings positives to the tier which will have an impact on how people feel regardless of whether it should or not, but I think it's an ideal candidate for this sort of test precisely because there's no guarantee it gets banned or even gets close.
I'm not gonna go too in depth on this because I don't personally feel torn is broken in the current meta however I feel that people who take issue with the tier the most generally really want this mon banned, the reality is just that there is not enough support for it rn and testing it won't change that, however i still feel it'd be preferable to an apple or drill test. If zapdos were to get banned this would be next though.
Personally strongly support banning/testing this mon at some point however the reality is it has a pretty limited effect on overall dynamics, with a potential drill ban being the only real fallout i could see. Think there's a very high chance it could fall into the scapegoat category of people voting to ban it just because it's up for testing, and is the most likely of these to be banned in a potential suspect test, but ultimately i believe any test on this should only happen when there is more significant support in the community.
I think drill is kinda clearly not broken as of this moment and seeing as it's one of two viable forms of hazard removal it just doesn't make sense to test, the support isn't there and it's not impacting things significantly rn.
Ultimately can't speak for everyone and for all I know no one agrees with a word i said here but that's why I encourage anyone who feels strongly that the tier is in a bad state rn to share their thoughts, there are also less intrusive forms of action we can take if there's a desire to preserve the current main dynamics of the tier and the tier could look very different by the time august comes but I wanted to start the discussion now regardless as i feel there's a relatively coherent desire for change atm.
I wanted to go over some of zapdos’ checks and counters. Lizzie mentioned the 3 in their post but i’m going to try and go over them in a little more detail. There really isn’t much consistent counterplay and every team needs more than one check. Zapdos restricts team building way too much imo
Rhyperior
Rhyperior usage has been on the rise and i’m pretty sure this is because it’s one of the best answers to zapdos, resisting all of zapdos’ moves bar water/ice weather ball. It also has some utility with its ground type and access to rocks. However, its typing also leaves it with several weaknesses, and is not very useful outside specific matchups. It’s reliant on lefties for recovery and gets worn down by spikes
Sandy shocks
Sandy shocks is an ok check to zapdos and is more useful than rhyperior in matchups without zap. However, it gets worn down pretty quickly by heat wave. I’ve seen people mention how it also requires power gem to properly deal with zapdos, but it’s not that much of a sacrifice imo. The main problem with shocks is its average bulk and lack of recovery
Ttar
While it cannot block volt switch, it at least has the bulk to stomach all of zapdos’ attacks comfortably. It has similar issues as rhyperior but has more going for it outside the zapdos matchup, such as dd
Latios
Choice specs ohko’s offensive sets and has a chance to ohko defensive ones. Calm mind sets can take advantage of recover to set up. Outside of checking zapdos, it’s still a great pokemon.
The following pokemon are either rarely seen or cannot deal with zapdos as effectively as the ones above
Thundurus-t
Thundy has a niche over zapdos thanks to volt absorb proving role compression on certain teams and checking zapdos. However, it’s pretty frail and worn down by heat wave, getting 3hko’d by uninvested zapdos, while thundy can’t reliably 2hko defensive ones in return. Additionally, it needs boots to not get destroyed by rocks. Still, its presence on a team greatly discourages spamming volt switch
Harcanine
It fears zapdos’ electric moves the most. If you can get it in on a defensive zapdos it can outspeed and threaten it. Offensive zapdos is a bigger issue for it since it outspeeds and volts out
Cornerpon
Cornerpon is hates switching into hurricanes, almost always getting 2hko’d by uninvested zapdos. Additionally, it cannot reliably ohko defensive zapdos. However, it’s a good pokemon that can 1v1 it
Bellibolt
It resists zapdos’ stabs and has reliable recovery in slack off. It gets toxic to hurt zapdos’ longevity for the course of the whole game.
Raikou
It has good special bulk and access to calm mind, but lacks recovery, thus getting worn down easily. It’s not seen much either
Hoodra
It walls zapdos very well but lacks recovery outside life dew and lefties. Its matchup into zap is similar to ttar’s except it’s less immediately threatening, can’t sweep with dd, and doesn’t enable teammates like drill. Hoodra’s typing is way better defensively but thats about it
it’s not an exhaustive list. However, it’s safe to say that zapdos counterplay is limited and it’s something that could be looked into once the meta settles down. Zapdos and hydrapple are the most problematic with kommo gone imo
Rhyperior
Rhyperior usage has been on the rise and i’m pretty sure this is because it’s one of the best answers to zapdos, resisting all of zapdos’ moves bar water/ice weather ball. It also has some utility with its ground type and access to rocks. However, its typing also leaves it with several weaknesses, and is not very useful outside specific matchups. It’s reliant on lefties for recovery and gets worn down by spikes
Sandy shocks
Sandy shocks is an ok check to zapdos and is more useful than rhyperior in matchups without zap. However, it gets worn down pretty quickly by heat wave. I’ve seen people mention how it also requires power gem to properly deal with zapdos, but it’s not that much of a sacrifice imo. The main problem with shocks is its average bulk and lack of recovery
Ttar
While it cannot block volt switch, it at least has the bulk to stomach all of zapdos’ attacks comfortably. It has similar issues as rhyperior but has more going for it outside the zapdos matchup, such as dd
Latios
Choice specs ohko’s offensive sets and has a chance to ohko defensive ones. Calm mind sets can take advantage of recover to set up. Outside of checking zapdos, it’s still a great pokemon.
The following pokemon are either rarely seen or cannot deal with zapdos as effectively as the ones above
Thundurus-t
Thundy has a niche over zapdos thanks to volt absorb proving role compression on certain teams and checking zapdos. However, it’s pretty frail and worn down by heat wave, getting 3hko’d by uninvested zapdos, while thundy can’t reliably 2hko defensive ones in return. Additionally, it needs boots to not get destroyed by rocks. Still, its presence on a team greatly discourages spamming volt switch
Harcanine
It fears zapdos’ electric moves the most. If you can get it in on a defensive zapdos it can outspeed and threaten it. Offensive zapdos is a bigger issue for it since it outspeeds and volts out
Cornerpon
Cornerpon is hates switching into hurricanes, almost always getting 2hko’d by uninvested zapdos. Additionally, it cannot reliably ohko defensive zapdos. However, it’s a good pokemon that can 1v1 it
Bellibolt
It resists zapdos’ stabs and has reliable recovery in slack off. It gets toxic to hurt zapdos’ longevity for the course of the whole game.
Raikou
It has good special bulk and access to calm mind, but lacks recovery, thus getting worn down easily. It’s not seen much either
Hoodra
It walls zapdos very well but lacks recovery outside life dew and lefties. Its matchup into zap is similar to ttar’s except it’s less immediately threatening, can’t sweep with dd, and doesn’t enable teammates like drill. Hoodra’s typing is way better defensively but thats about it
it’s not an exhaustive list. However, it’s safe to say that zapdos counterplay is limited and it’s something that could be looked into once the meta settles down. Zapdos and hydrapple are the most problematic with kommo gone imo
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Iron Crown moved from UU to OU
Moltres moved from RU to OU
Ribombee moved from OU to UU
Serperior moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to UU
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Lost a silly cheesemon and a very niche defensive pick and in return gained a webber, a sun setter, and a snake. How do we think these are gonna shake things up?
Moltres moved from RU to OU
Ribombee moved from OU to UU
Serperior moved from OU to UU
Torkoal moved from OU to UU
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Lost a silly cheesemon and a very niche defensive pick and in return gained a webber, a sun setter, and a snake. How do we think these are gonna shake things up?
Shifts Yay!
Rises to OU
- Good riddance, that Iron Defense Calm Mind booster set was a big pain to deal with, hopefully this leaving slows down HO thats been pretty wack recently
- This certainly existed
Drops to UU
- Will probably be alright, probably not gonna cause any major meta shifts but glare will be a good tool for messing with torn while maybe popping off every now and then
- Bad, sun needs abusers, not setters. NEXT
- Specs might be ok? webs definitely not though seeing how common excadrill is lol
Rises to OU
- Good riddance, that Iron Defense Calm Mind booster set was a big pain to deal with, hopefully this leaving slows down HO thats been pretty wack recently - This certainly existedDrops to UU
- Will probably be alright, probably not gonna cause any major meta shifts but glare will be a good tool for messing with torn while maybe popping off every now and then - Bad, sun needs abusers, not setters. NEXT - Specs might be ok? webs definitely not though seeing how common excadrill is lol