Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

[Catcus]

Usage stats for August are out

- BELLIBOLT STOCKS RISING!!! This is pretty major since zap is still a pretty major gatekeeper on whats viable. Scizor gets better, Serp and quaq appreciate losing a check, thundy-t doesn't like losing a good match-up but also loses its main competition, metagross might be slightly better but realistically doesn't get that much better, and Rhyperior and Shocks probably just kinda die off.

- Once again, obvious rises. These mons have only been getting better as time goes on.

- obvious drops. these mons all kinda suck and don't have a major place in the tier.

- Stall's a bit more legit now so they'll appreciate this. Still not thatmajor of a change

- Interesting for sure. A specially bulky ground that can set spikes. So its basically gastrodon with toxic. Realistically it'll be alright but a little niche. with water absorb its got a good match-up into most of our volt-switchers besides shocks, but its also passive as hell and the psychic weakness is pretty unfortunate. Probably around a B/B+mon.

- At this point Skeledirge is pretty much our only good fire type, so heatran will be nice. More lokix counterplay is great too.

- I don't it'll be as big of a drop as I did before now that ursaluna left and We're starting to get some actual spikers like gligar, but it'll be decent. My biggest concern is how many mons it kinda lets it for free, but realistically it'll still be good.

 

[correcthorse666]

- Stall's a bit more legit now so they'll appreciate this. Still not thatmajor of a change

- Interesting for sure. A specially bulky ground that can set spikes. So its basically gastrodon with toxic. Realistically it'll be alright but a little niche. with water absorb its got a good match-up into most of our volt-switchers besides shocks, but its also passive as hell and the psychic weakness is pretty unfortunate. Probably around a B/B+mon.

- At this point Skeledirge is pretty much our only good fire type, so heatran will be nice. More lokix counterplay is great too.

- I don't it'll be as big of a drop as I did before now that ursaluna left and We're starting to get some actual spikers like gligar, but it'll be decent. My biggest concern is how many mons it kinda lets it for free, but realistically it'll still be good.

This is actually a pretty major change for stall. Chansey can't run boots, so stall has to be removal spam. Chansey also can't hurt ghosts. Blissey on the other hand gets to run boots so stall doesn't need removal that's anywhere near as aggressive. Blissey also has enough SpA to make CM + Shadow Ball strats usable. That kind of flexibility really opens up the builder.

Additionally, Clodsire and Skarmory are both fat hazard setters that ease some problematics mus into things like Okidogi and NP Pecharunt. I don't know how they'd fit onto stall teams in practice but on paper they look like pretty appealing options.

Stallbreaker Heatran is going to be pretty dumb though, but I'm sure that's beatable.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Usage stats for August are out

- BELLIBOLT STOCKS RISING!!! This is pretty major since zap is still a pretty major gatekeeper on whats viable. Scizor gets better, Serp and quaq appreciate losing a check, thundy-t doesn't like losing a good match-up but also loses its main competition, metagross might be slightly better but realistically doesn't get that much better, and Rhyperior and Shocks probably just kinda die off.

- Once again, obvious rises. These mons have only been getting better as time goes on.

- obvious drops. these mons all kinda suck and don't have a major place in the tier.

- Stall's a bit more legit now so they'll appreciate this. Still not thatmajor of a change

- Interesting for sure. A specially bulky ground that can set spikes. So its basically gastrodon with toxic. Realistically it'll be alright but a little niche. with water absorb its got a good match-up into most of our volt-switchers besides shocks, but its also passive as hell and the psychic weakness is pretty unfortunate. Probably around a B/B+mon.

- At this point Skeledirge is pretty much our only good fire type, so heatran will be nice. More lokix counterplay is great too.

- I don't it'll be as big of a drop as I did before now that ursaluna left and We're starting to get some actual spikers like gligar, but it'll be decent. My biggest concern is how many mons it kinda lets it for free, but realistically it'll still be good.

Wait weavile escaped potentially dropping? Neat.

 

[Avira]

Any of you have any thoughts on potentially losing Zapdos, which is by far the best check to Excadrill? I know Zapdos has fallen off a little compared to its peak, but it has a niche that pretty much nothing else in UU can replicate. Rhyperior will probably drop back down to a lower tier if Zapdos rises to OU since checking Zapdos is its main niche.

 

[ThatOneApple]

Any of you have any thoughts on potentially losing Zapdos, which is by far the best check to Excadrill? I know Zapdos has fallen off a little compared to its peak, but it has a niche that pretty much nothing else in UU can replicate. Rhyperior will probably drop back down to a lower tier if Zapdos rises to OU since checking Zapdos is its main niche.

It not really the best Drill check ever considering Rock Slide does a pretty decent portion of its health, but we still have plenty of serviceable answers to drill in Grasses like Zarude and Hydrapple, while torn can also help to dissuade Earthquake. As for mons that get better/worse, here's what I personally think:

Better

Obviously it doesnt become broken or anything but it does appreciate being able to rapid spin without getting static procced.


Best static competition gone so itll likely see more usage, at least in tours anyways it was never a popular ladder mon, can also static proc on drill spin if you're feeling a little crazy.


Zap is the main thing holding it back from running CC in a lot of cases so being able to slot it is super nice for Coba.

In general contact move users like sciz or lokix obviously get better because static procs aren't as common but these are the main ones imo, other ones like Metagross and Quaquaval also like losing a check or dodging static procs though.

Worse:
Tbh this is a little harder to think about bc its not rlly as easy to predict how the meta will shift and how that affects the viability of other mons, but there is one i can probably assume, and thats:

Loses one of the main reasons to use it, being an offensive volt blocker that doesnt just explode to one of Zap's other moves (even though heat wave does sting), and bellibolt being used as a sort of replacement is worse for thundy due to belli actually checking it instead of losing to it.

As stated this is just kinda assuming things as theres no way to know for sure, but i doubt the tier collapses with Zap leaving.

 

[kimerCat]

I'm afraid of what might happen if UU loses zapdos

I see constant complaints about the huge spam of volt turn in the tier and if zapdos comes out this could be the target of even more constant complaints

Scary things:

considering that zapdos' main replacement is going to be belibolt Scizor will become a real danger sword dance u-turn sets will simply destroy belibolt and anything else that dares to try to stop scizor

Lokix has always been a Pokémon that everyone finds annoying, but now without the presence of Zapdos to distribute some statics, this will become even more unbearable and will probably get out of control easily

 

[Jonbot]

I'm afraid of what might happen if UU loses zapdos

I see constant complaints about the huge spam of volt turn in the tier and if zapdos comes out this could be the target of even more constant complaints

Scary things:

considering that zapdos' main replacement is going to be belibolt Scizor will become a real danger sword dance u-turn sets will simply destroy belibolt and anything else that dares to try to stop scizor

Lokix has always been a Pokémon that everyone finds annoying, but now without the presence of Zapdos to distribute some statics, this will become even more unbearable and will probably get out of control easily

While these mons may get better if zapdos leaves, I think they will still be balanced because skarmory and heatran will also drop. While lokix and scizor can click u-turn into skarm without fearing static, skarmory can run rocky helmet to try and punish them in a similar way. Heatran may also drop, which could run flame body as a way to cripple lokix and scizor in a similar way to zapdos. Both skarmory and heatran also aren’t as afraid of knock off as zapdos and take u-turns better than it as well.

If neither skarm nor heatran drop at the end of this month, then lokix and scizor may become very scary, but if they do drop to uu, then it’ll probably be fine

 

[bungeegum_420]

pretty sure heatran will keep both in check, although skarm may surge in usage in ou post gouging fire ban

 

[Geopolitics]

Haven't posted here in months but have recently gotten back into UU after taking (and as of yesterday, passing!) the bar exam.

While I usually play offense, I've been exploring more balance options - they seem to fit the tier a little better right now. UU has a ton of Pokemon who are amazing but lack recovery - think things like Tinkaton, Keldeo, Lokix, Cobalion - so I decided to try and supplement these Pokemon with Wish support. I was pretty disappointed by the Wish users who were usable in the tier, including but not limited to Eeveemons, Jirachi, Gardevoir, Scream Tail, and Florges. All of these Pokemon have pretty substantial flaws: the Eeveemons (outside of Sylveon) have pretty limited utility, Jirachi's moveset is extremely cramped with Wish, Scream Tail doesn't have an effective way to actually passing Wish, and Florges is bad. That pushed me to explore more Wish options, and I have found moderate success with the following:


Farigiraf @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Future Sight
- Thunder Wave

Unconventional? Yes. Effective? Also yes. I originally added this to one of my teams due to Wish + the ability to hard counter Sinistcha (Sap Sipper + Normal type) but was immediately impressed by this Pokemon's ability to open up Wish pass opportunities with Future Sight and generally provide excellent speed control with Thunder Wave. It is EV'd to avoid the 2hhko against utility Excadrill, eat anything from Tornadus-T (taking a max of 70% after Knock off + U-Turn), and sit on LO Greninja (if you tera) or at least be able to avoid the OHKO so you have the opportunity to para.

A good replay of this mon is here.

As far as how the giraffe fits into team comps, I think it pairs nicely with things like Cobalion (who can chip Lokix with Rocky Helmet and still get recovery via Wish), Keldeo (similarly a bug resist, but also appreciates the Wish support if Specs), Metagross (gives you Rocks and loves T-Wave), and Azumarill.

I don't think it's the best Pokemon in the tier - far from it - but when Wish users are this hard to come by, I thought I'd throw it out there as an option.

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Hey, as you might know, council held a survey a few weeks ago regarding Hoopa-Unbound where it got a result of about 2.8/5. This score is a bit on the low end as we generally expect an average above 3 for anything to get banned through a suspect test, so we decided to hold off on testing Hoopa at the time. We will not be holding a test this month either, rather we will wait for October shifts to judge the metagame again, but most likely, we won't get any magic answer that makes Hoopa suddenly extremely manageable. As such, I wanted to get my thoughts on it out there to get people thinking about it.

The basics of Hoopa
This section is mostly just to establish how Hoopa-Unbound works on the most basic level which will help us establish how those dynamics trickle down to its effect on usage and viability. Here is Hoopa's most standard and, most likely, most problematic set:

Main Set

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot / Drain Punch

The main idea behind this set is quite simple: with a Scarf, Hoopa is capable of outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame all the while hitting very hard with its 160 base Attack and 100BP STAB Hyperspace Fury. When Tera Dark is added on top of that, Hoopa becomes capable of outspeeding and 1HKOing staples such as Tornadus-Therian and Excadrill who are neutral to the move and who are not particularly frail. Additionally, Hyperspace Fury is an especially spammable option when it comes to power compared to the main other Dark STAB, Knock Off, which makes avoiding a 2HKO from Hoopa with neutral targets nearly impossible, with even Bold Hydrapple struggling. Its Speed and Power combined means it gets a lot of opportunities to hit the field and can force switches quite often, most often to some sort of Dark-resistance. If you lack proper Dark resists, it can force a kill every time it gets an opportunity which, again, is quite often, and may outright sweep if you lack any ways to revenge-kill it. Its remaining moveslots serve to enable its offensive potential by weakening or removing switchins to Hyperspace Fury. Psychic hits physically bulky Fighting-types such as Cobalion and Okidogi while Knock Off serves to remove Leftovers from the aforementionned fighters or Heavy-Duty Boots from the likes of Lokix, Mandibuzz or Hydrapple. Gunk Shot allows it to hit Zarude and Hydrapple especially hard, all the while fishing for poison and also lets it deal with Tera Fairy walls. Drain Punch is sometimes used as a midground for Steel- and Dark-types all the while hitting Tyranitar particularly hard.
So, to summarize, Scarf Hoopa is both a fast and powerful threat that can force out a lot of the metagame and has tools to help cover some of its more difficult matchups. Pretty spooky. Fortunately, we have many options to help handle its onslaught. Let's look into them.

Checks and Counters
Here is a list of Hoopa counterplay organized in categories based on their effectiveness and reliability. I'm generally going off of Pokemon that have some sort of recognization in tournaments.

Checks and Counters

Tier 1 (Can switch into every move once, at least to help scout it. May need a teammate to switch into certain coverage moves)
The best dark resist in the tier, it's a bit easy to wear down using Knock Off and Spikes, but having a Cobalion on your team will allow you to take Hyperspace Fury well. It's pretty weak to Psychic, but it's not dying instantly to it and can probably recover somewhat with Leftovers.
One of the few options that can scout Hoopa's move choice, though it can't 1v1 it. You'll need mons that can switch into both Hyperspace Fury and Psychic, but once you know what move it's locked into, that's generally a much easier fight. It's a bit scared of Gunk Shot poison and hazards if it gets hit by Knock Off, however.
Hoopa pretty much can't heavily damage Mandibuzz, making it the best option to sponge whatever hit is coming your way. However, it's extremely easy for Mandibuzz to be worn down by Stealth Rock if Knocked Off as well as by Gunk Shot Poison, but it'll never lose short-term.
Technically resists all of Hoopa's moves with respectable bulk, but very passive and easy to wear down in general. Tinkaton can take Psychic unlike Cobalion, but I'd also say Cobalion is more capable of staying at high health, so it's weaker to Dark moves in a way.

Tier 2 (Can safely switch-in, but only once or can switch in while taking some sort of risk.)
Technically one of the best options to take Hyperspace Fury, but it's pretty much an HO exclusive and gets nuked by Gunk Shot. Still helps out the playstyle a lot though.
Scarf Hydreigon can take every move once and force Hoopa out with U-Turn. Switching in repeatedly is very risky however, but it can still revenge-kill it later if needed. Non-Scarf sets are a bit worse into it, but they sometimes use Thunder Wave which can be crippling to Hoopa, forcing a switch.
Same as Hydreigon, can take one hit from any move, but drops pretty easily once chipped, but can always force it out thanks to First Impression.
Dogi can shrug off Hoopa's Dark moves pretty well and heal them off with Leftovers and Drain Punch. More offensive sets using Close Combat can get worn down more quickly however and you probably need a way to scout Hoopa's choice-lock, or else Psychic puts you in trouble.
Kinda like Cobalion and Tinkaton in the higher tier where it can take most of its moves pretty well, but it's also quite easy to wear down and sometimes randomly gets nuked by Drain Punch.
Pretty bulky Dark-type, but unfortunately gets hit very hard by Gunk Shot and is also slower, so you need to keep its health pretty high if you want it to check Hoopa. I suppose there's also potential for Scarf, but I'd say those sets are pretty poor and not that hard to wear down.

Tier 3 (Generally pretty flawed at switching into it, but can force it out reliably through priority, speed or resistances)
Tera Normal Extreme Speed kills Hoopa at -1 Defense.
Has priority and decent resistances to force it out, but generally takes too much damage to switch in properly.
Takes Dark moves extremely well, but can't take Psychic.
Can take Hyperspace Fury in a pinch and pp stall with Roost, but needs to be at incredibly high HP and is also unable to switch into Psychic.
Scarfed Moonblast serves to revenge-kill Hoopa and it can also technically switch in on Psychic.
Can take a Dark move once if you really need it, but aside from that, it's 3HKO'd by Hyperspace Fury and 1HKO'd by Psychic.
Can attempt a reverse-sweep on Hoopa locked into a Dark-move as it gives it an opportunity to Aqua Step and start snowballing.
Gives you strong priority to revenge-kill Hoopa.

I'd say to be safe into Hoopa, you generally need a Tier 1 and a Tier 2 check, though a mix of weaker options can also sometimes be sufficient. This counterplay isn't particularly hard to fit or to use and, as a result, Hoopa has generally not proven itself to be broken in-game. However, its effect on the builder is still crystal clear as you have to go out of your way to make sure your switch-ins to it are good enough. At this point, it's not all that bad to keep in check, but the more you dig, the more Hoopa's pressure on the teambuilder becomes difficult to bear. Let's go further.

Hoopa's Anti-Offense capabilities
Now, we start getting into the meat of the argument and into how Hoopa limits creativity in the builder. As stated before, Hoopa is faster than every unboosted pokemon in the tier and hits hard enough to 1HKO a good amount of neutral targets. This becomes a major issue when it comes to a team's offensive core. Hoopa itself is quite threatening and limiting its switch-in abilities is ideal, or else it'll wear down your answers quickly. Furthermore, you don't want your win conditions to be easily revenge-killed by a common form of speed-control, especially not from high health. Trying to work around both of these issues is the death sentence of pokemon such as Latios and Serperior.

Both of these mons have seen extremely succesful games at some point in the metagame (a relatively short time for Serperior, but it still proved its potential). However, with Hoopa's rise, both of these have gotten much rarer. Serperior is pretty much nowhere to be seen as, on top of other issues against Flying-types and Okidogi, it has to contend with a Scarfer that can 1HKO it at full health through a Substitute. This is especially tough for a pokemon that needs to start a snowball effect to get things done as Hoopa is a complete stop to its attempt at sweeping. Latios has it a bit better with Soul Dew and Scarf sets still seeing some usage, but Latios teams generally have to be extremely careful about their Hoopa matchup as a result of Latios letting the threat in so easily. Calm Mind sets, previously seen as potentially banworthy, are also now rendered little more than a matchup fish as they are so easily revenge-killed.

While I've highlighted those two mons as key targets, they are far from the only ones affected by Hoopa. NP Tornadus-T, Ogerpon-C and Thundurus-T are also examples of offensive threats that can be instantly forced out if the opponent manages to get Hoopa on the field. The natural reaction to these offensive mons being limited in such a way is to start using ones that are more capable against Hoopa, or at least less weak to it. As it stands, there are pretty few great offensive mons that aren't too vulnerable to it, with a lot of teams falling back on Okidogi, Hydrapple and Lokix for their better matchup into Hoopa. If you want to use an offensive mon that's less stellar against Hoopa, you will probably have to surround it with pokemon that match up into it properly and all that leads to much poorer team variety.

Hoopa and Spikes
Hoopa makes Spikes extremely powerful in this tier as it encourages both singular mons as well as teamstyles that are less resilient against hazards. There are few mons that can take multiple Hyperspace Furys through the course of a game, only Okidogi and Cobalion are truly common options in that regard. However, both are quite easily worn down by Spikes and, if you are relying on those to take Hoopa's hits and your opponent can easily stack Spikes, you are at a high risk of being overwhelmed. Certain other answers such as Mandibuzz or Hydrapple are much more likely to run Heavy-Duty Boots to make them resilient to hazards, but even in those cases, Hoopa's powerful Knock Offs will expose them to hazards whether they want to or not. Racking up hazard chip is not something that's done slowly either, Cobalion and Okidogi are unlikely to be able to switch in more than once as soon as Spikes damage starts racking up and I've been able to get through opposing Mandibuzz by turn 8 with slightly aggressive play.

Ok so if mons that try to answer Hoopa risk getting worn out by hazards, what about trying to use mons that are much more difficult to wear down through passive damage? There are a few ways to do it, one of which being to just use Excadrill which is excellent removal, but you can also use pokemon like Latios that are naturally immune to Spikes or you can focus on a team with a lot of Boots users like Tornadus-T or Slowking. You may have noticed however that, if you were to stack a few of these mons, your team would quickly become extremely vulnerable to Hoopa itself. Using so many mons outsped and 1HKO'd by Hoopa is just asking for trouble as it will be able to come in and throw out its powerful moves over and over. You can still use some of the checks mentionned above, but they may have a tough time dealing with hazards even with Excadrill as it can only handle so much.

Since Hoopa has become more popular, teams have started using Spikes much more frequently as they're very strong against the kinds of teams Hoopa encourages, teams using the two main Fighting-types as well as teams using Hoopa itself as it is quite weak to hazards itself. Being weaker to Spikes than to Hoopa is desirable as you can at least contest the former, whereas letting the latter take kills on every entry is pretty much a death sentence. As a result of Spikes becoming so powerful, we've seen a major rise in usage of, for lack of a better term, shitmons like Gligar, who is especially notable as it can switch in and set Spikes on Cobalion and Okidogi, the two main Hoopa switchins, and Gastrodon who are both currently PU. Not that these mons don't have good traits, but, especially in the case of Gligar, its presence allows them to push the few advantages they do have extremely far.

Conclusion
Throughout my building in UUBD and SCL, I've felt that Hoopa-U's presence forced the metagame into a direction where Bulky Offense is way advantaged over any other playstyle, but even that is often forced into using one of Okidogi or Cobalion, a Dark-type and a Spikes user, all the while trying to avoid mons that are particularly weak to Hoopa like Latios. Slower-paced teams are a poor fit for our best Dark-resists and also give Hoopa more time to make progress which can get them pretty easily overwhelmed on top of the pressure other threats like Okidogi and Hydrapple can already apply. Hoopa's overall Speed and power, while extremely good, isn't necessarily overwhelming in-game. However, it has a ripple effect on the teambuilder that leads to team variety being much lower than what it otherwise could be.

Conclusion, but biased and unprofessionally written

Spam Kix+Fighter+Spikes and the tier is solved because everything else dies to Hoopa, please let me experiment with other stuff.

 

[Lizzie]

Hey, as you might know, council held a survey a few weeks ago regarding Hoopa-Unbound where it got a result of about 2.8/5. This score is a bit on the low end as we generally expect an average above 3 for anything to get banned through a suspect test, so we decided to hold off on testing Hoopa at the time. We will not be holding a test this month either, rather we will wait for October shifts to judge the metagame again, but most likely, we won't get any magic answer that makes Hoopa suddenly extremely manageable. As such, I wanted to get my thoughts on it out there to get people thinking about it.

The basics of Hoopa
This section is mostly just to establish how Hoopa-Unbound works on the most basic level which will help us establish how those dynamics trickle down to its effect on usage and viability. Here is Hoopa's most standard and, most likely, most problematic set:

Main Set

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot / Drain Punch

The main idea behind this set is quite simple: with a Scarf, Hoopa is capable of outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame all the while hitting very hard with its 160 base Attack and 100BP STAB Hyperspace Fury. When Tera Dark is added on top of that, Hoopa becomes capable of outspeeding and 1HKOing staples such as Tornadus-Therian and Excadrill who are neutral to the move and who are not particularly frail. Additionally, Hyperspace Fury is an especially spammable option when it comes to power compared to the main other Dark STAB, Knock Off, which makes avoiding a 2HKO from Hoopa with neutral targets nearly impossible, with even Bold Hydrapple struggling. Its Speed and Power combined means it gets a lot of opportunities to hit the field and can force switches quite often, most often to some sort of Dark-resistance. If you lack proper Dark resists, it can force a kill every time it gets an opportunity which, again, is quite often, and may outright sweep if you lack any ways to revenge-kill it. Its remaining moveslots serve to enable its offensive potential by weakening or removing switchins to Hyperspace Fury. Psychic hits physically bulky Fighting-types such as Cobalion and Okidogi while Knock Off serves to remove Leftovers from the aforementionned fighters or Heavy-Duty Boots from the likes of Lokix, Mandibuzz or Hydrapple. Gunk Shot allows it to hit Zarude and Hydrapple especially hard, all the while fishing for poison and also lets it deal with Tera Fairy walls. Drain Punch is sometimes used as a midground for Steel- and Dark-types all the while hitting Tyranitar particularly hard.
So, to summarize, Scarf Hoopa is both a fast and powerful threat that can force out a lot of the metagame and has tools to help cover some of its more difficult matchups. Pretty spooky. Fortunately, we have many options to help handle its onslaught. Let's look into them.

Checks and Counters
Here is a list of Hoopa counterplay organized in categories based on their effectiveness and reliability. I'm generally going off of Pokemon that have some sort of recognization in tournaments.

Checks and Counters

Tier 1 (Can switch into every move once, at least to help scout it. May need a teammate to switch into certain coverage moves)
The best dark resist in the tier, it's a bit easy to wear down using Knock Off and Spikes, but having a Cobalion on your team will allow you to take Hyperspace Fury well. It's pretty weak to Psychic, but it's not dying instantly to it and can probably recover somewhat with Leftovers.
One of the few options that can scout Hoopa's move choice, though it can't 1v1 it. You'll need mons that can switch into both Hyperspace Fury and Psychic, but once you know what move it's locked into, that's generally a much easier fight. It's a bit scared of Gunk Shot poison and hazards if it gets hit by Knock Off, however.
Hoopa pretty much can't heavily damage Mandibuzz, making it the best option to sponge whatever hit is coming your way. However, it's extremely easy for Mandibuzz to be worn down by Stealth Rock if Knocked Off as well as by Gunk Shot Poison, but it'll never lose short-term.
Technically resists all of Hoopa's moves with respectable bulk, but very passive and easy to wear down in general. Tinkaton can take Psychic unlike Cobalion, but I'd also say Cobalion is more capable of staying at high health, so it's weaker to Dark moves in a way.

Tier 2 (Can safely switch-in, but only once or can switch in while taking some sort of risk.)
Technically one of the best options to take Hyperspace Fury, but it's pretty much an HO exclusive and gets nuked by Gunk Shot. Still helps out the playstyle a lot though.
Scarf Hydreigon can take every move once and force Hoopa out with U-Turn. Switching in repeatedly is very risky however, but it can still revenge-kill it later if needed. Non-Scarf sets are a bit worse into it, but they sometimes use Thunder Wave which can be crippling to Hoopa, forcing a switch.
Same as Hydreigon, can take one hit from any move, but drops pretty easily once chipped, but can always force it out thanks to First Impression.
Dogi can shrug off Hoopa's Dark moves pretty well and heal them off with Leftovers and Drain Punch. More offensive sets using Close Combat can get worn down more quickly however and you probably need a way to scout Hoopa's choice-lock, or else Psychic puts you in trouble.
Kinda like Cobalion and Tinkaton in the higher tier where it can take most of its moves pretty well, but it's also quite easy to wear down and sometimes randomly gets nuked by Drain Punch.
Pretty bulky Dark-type, but unfortunately gets hit very hard by Gunk Shot and is also slower, so you need to keep its health pretty high if you want it to check Hoopa. I suppose there's also potential for Scarf, but I'd say those sets are pretty poor and not that hard to wear down.

Tier 3 (Generally pretty flawed at switching into it, but can force it out reliably through priority, speed or resistances)
Tera Normal Extreme Speed kills Hoopa at -1 Defense.
Has priority and decent resistances to force it out, but generally takes too much damage to switch in properly.
Takes Dark moves extremely well, but can't take Psychic.
Can take Hyperspace Fury in a pinch and pp stall with Roost, but needs to be at incredibly high HP and is also unable to switch into Psychic.
Scarfed Moonblast serves to revenge-kill Hoopa and it can also technically switch in on Psychic.
Can take a Dark move once if you really need it, but aside from that, it's 3HKO'd by Hyperspace Fury and 1HKO'd by Psychic.
Can attempt a reverse-sweep on Hoopa locked into a Dark-move as it gives it an opportunity to Aqua Step and start snowballing.
Gives you strong priority to revenge-kill Hoopa.

I'd say to be safe into Hoopa, you generally need a Tier 1 and a Tier 2 check, though a mix of weaker options can also sometimes be sufficient. This counterplay isn't particularly hard to fit or to use and, as a result, Hoopa has generally not proven itself to be broken in-game. However, its effect on the builder is still crystal clear as you have to go out of your way to make sure your switch-ins to it are good enough. At this point, it's not all that bad to keep in check, but the more you dig, the more Hoopa's pressure on the teambuilder becomes difficult to bear. Let's go further.

Hoopa's Anti-Offense capabilities
Now, we start getting into the meat of the argument and into how Hoopa limits creativity in the builder. As stated before, Hoopa is faster than every unboosted pokemon in the tier and hits hard enough to 1HKO a good amount of neutral targets. This becomes a major issue when it comes to a team's offensive core. Hoopa itself is quite threatening and limiting its switch-in abilities is ideal, or else it'll wear down your answers quickly. Furthermore, you don't want your win conditions to be easily revenge-killed by a common form of speed-control, especially not from high health. Trying to work around both of these issues is the death sentence of pokemon such as Latios and Serperior.

Both of these mons have seen extremely succesful games at some point in the metagame (a relatively short time for Serperior, but it still proved its potential). However, with Hoopa's rise, both of these have gotten much rarer. Serperior is pretty much nowhere to be seen as, on top of other issues against Flying-types and Okidogi, it has to contend with a Scarfer that can 1HKO it at full health through a Substitute. This is especially tough for a pokemon that needs to start a snowball effect to get things done as Hoopa is a complete stop to its attempt at sweeping. Latios has it a bit better with Soul Dew and Scarf sets still seeing some usage, but Latios teams generally have to be extremely careful about their Hoopa matchup as a result of Latios letting the threat in so easily. Calm Mind sets, previously seen as potentially banworthy, are also now rendered little more than a matchup fish as they are so easily revenge-killed.

While I've highlighted those two mons as key targets, they are far from the only ones affected by Hoopa. NP Tornadus-T, Ogerpon-C and Thundurus-T are also examples of offensive threats that can be instantly forced out if the opponent manages to get Hoopa on the field. The natural reaction to these offensive mons being limited in such a way is to start using ones that are more capable against Hoopa, or at least less weak to it. As it stands, there are pretty few great offensive mons that aren't too vulnerable to it, with a lot of teams falling back on Okidogi, Hydrapple and Lokix for their better matchup into Hoopa. If you want to use an offensive mon that's less stellar against Hoopa, you will probably have to surround it with pokemon that match up into it properly and all that leads to much poorer team variety.

Hoopa and Spikes
Hoopa makes Spikes extremely powerful in this tier as it encourages both singular mons as well as teamstyles that are less resilient against hazards. There are few mons that can take multiple Hyperspace Furys through the course of a game, only Okidogi and Cobalion are truly common options in that regard. However, both are quite easily worn down by Spikes and, if you are relying on those to take Hoopa's hits and your opponent can easily stack Spikes, you are at a high risk of being overwhelmed. Certain other answers such as Mandibuzz or Hydrapple are much more likely to run Heavy-Duty Boots to make them resilient to hazards, but even in those cases, Hoopa's powerful Knock Offs will expose them to hazards whether they want to or not. Racking up hazard chip is not something that's done slowly either, Cobalion and Okidogi are unlikely to be able to switch in more than once as soon as Spikes damage starts racking up and I've been able to get through opposing Mandibuzz by turn 8 with slightly aggressive play.

Ok so if mons that try to answer Hoopa risk getting worn out by hazards, what about trying to use mons that are much more difficult to wear down through passive damage? There are a few ways to do it, one of which being to just use Excadrill which is excellent removal, but you can also use pokemon like Latios that are naturally immune to Spikes or you can focus on a team with a lot of Boots users like Tornadus-T or Slowking. You may have noticed however that, if you were to stack a few of these mons, your team would quickly become extremely vulnerable to Hoopa itself. Using so many mons outsped and 1HKO'd by Hoopa is just asking for trouble as it will be able to come in and throw out its powerful moves over and over. You can still use some of the checks mentionned above, but they may have a tough time dealing with hazards even with Excadrill as it can only handle so much.

Since Hoopa has become more popular, teams have started using Spikes much more frequently as they're very strong against the kinds of teams Hoopa encourages, teams using the two main Fighting-types as well as teams using Hoopa itself as it is quite weak to hazards itself. Being weaker to Spikes than to Hoopa is desirable as you can at least contest the former, whereas letting the latter take kills on every entry is pretty much a death sentence. As a result of Spikes becoming so powerful, we've seen a major rise in usage of, for lack of a better term, shitmons like Gligar, who is especially notable as it can switch in and set Spikes on Cobalion and Okidogi, the two main Hoopa switchins, and Gastrodon who are both currently PU. Not that these mons don't have good traits, but, especially in the case of Gligar, its presence allows them to push the few advantages they do have extremely far.

Conclusion
Throughout my building in UUBD and SCL, I've felt that Hoopa-U's presence forced the metagame into a direction where Bulky Offense is way advantaged over any other playstyle, but even that is often forced into using one of Okidogi or Cobalion, a Dark-type and a Spikes user, all the while trying to avoid mons that are particularly weak to Hoopa like Latios. Slower-paced teams are a poor fit for our best Dark-resists and also give Hoopa more time to make progress which can get them pretty easily overwhelmed on top of the pressure other threats like Okidogi and Hydrapple can already apply. Hoopa's overall Speed and power, while extremely good, isn't necessarily overwhelming in-game. However, it has a ripple effect on the teambuilder that leads to team variety being much lower than what it otherwise could be.

Conclusion, but biased and unprofessionally written

Spam Kix+Fighter+Spikes and the tier is solved because everything else dies to Hoopa, please let me experiment with other stuff.

I don't entirely disagree with banning hoopa but I have very different thoughts on it which I figured I'd add for diversitys sake.

Checks And Counters
I don't have much to add here beyond the tiers being kind of arbitrary and not really how I would view things, generally think the main thing is you want hoopa to have as difficult a choice as possible which means not having everything lose to Hyperspace + Psychic or Hyperspace + Gunk. I don't really think this dynamic is unique to hoopa, gren had a somewhat similar dynamic before hoopa really picked up and basically kicked it out of the meta, although there was momentum for banning gren at this time and some better gren counterplay has risen since then. I think that regardless of action on hoopa you're still gonna see a lot of coba/dogi because they're two of the only relevant mons that resist cornerpon stabs, but it would lessen the need for a secondary dark resist.

Hoopa's Anti-Offense Capabilities
To be honest I personally find it strange that this is brought up as a negative. Its undeniable that hoopas presence limits all of the mons you mentioned as well as greninja which you didn't but this is probably the biggest point in its favour in my view. You acknowledge that cm latios has gone from borderline broken to non existent as a result of hoopa, how is this even remotely a bad thing?

Of course the flipside of that is that it limits other mons that aren't borderline broken, but that's kind of the nature of any metagame ever. Ultimately hoopas effect on these mons isn't that it makes them completely unviable, it's that it means they require more specific structures and are riskier to bring. I am personally of the belief that this is a good thing. I'd also suggest that scarf latios has risen a bit partly as a means of exploiting hoopa teams often having a pretty soft mu into latios, due to them relying on hoopa to punish it, which it can no longer do so well if latios is throwing off modest dracos while outspeeding it, which is a pretty solid example of adapting to deal with the thing that invalidated its previous best set.

Spikes
Agree with most of this but I'm much more indifferent towards it. Unclear how hazard metagame will change post shifts too with zapdos rising hurting gastro and skarm dropping (skarm prob sucks though).

Conclusion
Bulky Offense has been advantaged over every other playstyle since we banned the broken ho mons, banning hoopa isn't suddenly gonna make fat good but it prob does make ho better a bit so there's that.

My own view is that hoopa is kinda broken; it's the fastest mon in the tier and its incredibly awkward to switch into. However I don't view its dynamics as being overly restrictive and I think it holding back everything slower than it is good and makes the meta better. I don't really see that it's a restrictive presence cos if you ban it you're restricted to using similar stuff anyway except now you also have to account for all the slower guys. If I thought other people would support doing what I wanted after a hoopa ban then I'd ban it but as is I'd rather deal with hoopa being kinda dumb than a metagame I think would be bad, who knows what shifts will bring though.

 

[ThatOneApple]

I would like the chime into the Hoopa discussion and say that I agree with Mossy in that it has a very restricting effect on the builder. Teams being required to double up on things that resist dark because Hoopa can pretty easily just mash through them is very rough and limits team diversity. Hoopa does kinda limit other threats like Latios and Serperior to a degree by forcing them onto specific structures, but I believe that the counterplay to them would be a lot more diverse than just "throw hoopa at the problem and hope it works" in a Hoopaless metagame. Take the Latios example, Latios seems like itd be pretty threatening in this metagame with Hoopa pushing things like the AV Torn + Drill core and Slowking to lesser usage in tandem with spikes being popular and Coba being the most common steel. Now you could argue that Hoopa providing an answer to this is positive, however my problem with that is that I feel as though by removing Hoopa the counterplay to other mons, such as latios, will be more diverse and effective as a result of not needing to dedicate so much to Hoopa, thus increasing team diversity.

Onto the topic of Spikes
As Mossy said Hoopa + Spikes is pretty ridiculous to deal with as a result of most Hoopa checks being very spikes weak. However I'd like to throw on that when I teambuilld I usually feel like the best way to beat Hoopa is to throw the spikes back at it. A lot of times I feel as though I can't sufficiently wear hoopa down fast enough as it comes in and out and throws hits at me with a spike up, so I end up just trying to spike back in hopes that I can stay alive long enough for it to go down. Now this could very much just be a "me" thing but generally it feels a lot harder to beat by just taking hits and hoping its teammates crumble before you do, especially considering that even if they dont have a good switch to say... Okidogi, it just takes one good Psychic click from Hoopa to obliterate it. I dont rlly have anything else to add here so I will once again echo what Mossy said, Hoopa has heavily centralized the meta around itself and spikes.

As for the whole "We would still be using these mons even without Hoopa" argument.
Yes, we would, what we wouldnt doing however is using like 2-3 of these checks on every team purely because a single check just doesnt work. Coba is probably the best answer as it is good in general, takes the dark moves well, and doesnt instantly explode to a coverage move. However with spikes and repeated hits it still isnt even that hard to beat down even without prediction. This means that you have to load up on multiple Hoopa checks, most of which are spikes weak, and leads to really cruddy dynamics in teambuilding as well as repetitive teams.

Conclusion
The tier is way better off without Hoopa imo, it makes building anything that isnt BO incredibly difficult as slower teams cant put up enough offense to contest with Hoopa while more offensive teams get bowled over too quickly to be reliable. Also, none of the possible drops really help with Hoopa, the best thing for it in that group is Skarmory, who probably just adds to the cruddy spikes dynamics more than it answers Hoopa.

Sorry for the not so high quality in this post, typed this up while half asleep bc i was worried I wouldnt be motivated to do it any other time lol.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I have not seen this yet.. but

This set achieves similar things.... but running less speed allows you to slow u-turn out on opposing gligar, mandibuzz, you can even go slower than 200 and under speed stuff like chesnaught, ttar, scizor, metagross (not as useful) but it can generally be a good boon to have a slower gligar than the opponent just like having a slower slowking allows you to outrun them and slow pivot out to smth else
I think min speed gligar is much better than running a neutral nature for the sake of just having a better mirror, better MU into some mons around its speed lvl, and i dont think the loss in speed is ever relevant while a slow u-turn is much more noticable
---------------------------------------------------

Ogerpon-C idt is broken... as was speculated like a week ago or smth... forgot to comment on it tho since i was dead from PMPL

- in this meta its 110 speed is nice,... but a lot of things outspeed it like torn-t who may or may not have focus blast and nuke, u-turn into smth like coba, okidogi, hydrapple
- while yes it can cream everything in this tier in 10 seconds if it gets stuff right... when is it gonna happen. Sure if you land a stomping -> stomping on coba that is a good play but u can also say that about hoopa, dogi when it clicks the right buttons, or specs greninja always having the right option. Idt its gonna land
- so hazard vulnurable... even taking spikes + rocks is gonna accumulate quickly... and the def boost from the tera isnt gonna do much when you are just dying to first impression after a few rounds from gligar, shocks, chesnaught, and our best removal being exca which cant spin well...

While i think its a solid breaker esp in non spike MU's, its just gonna struggle, esp with stuff like chesnaught, coba shitting on its stabs, phys def hydrapple eating a lot it throws at it, being unable to counter tera to deal with opponents.. it feels way weaker than I feel people make it out ot be

 

[Goro Yagami]

I think Scrafty has a nice niche on HO Screen teams based on my games with it

1. Resists/Typing

- Resisting/being immune to Hoopa-U's main stabs is very helpful (and also Greninja's Dark Pulse) especially on HO where some players want to take advantage of lead Mew. Its quad-dark resist helps add some risk what would otherwise be a relatively free click of Hyperspace Fury or Dark Pulse.

- Being a Dark-Type also means it is immune to Psychic Fangs, which is invaluable in keeping Screens up if your setter is not Grimmsnarl Screens Serp is the best setter considering the existance of Metagross and Okidogi with Psychic Fangs.

- Although Foul Play is a relatively uncommon move nowadays (Mandibuzz being the most relevant mon atm that runs it), quad-resisting it when it does come up is an invaluable trait for a physical sweeper, allowing to set up without fear of being punished for it.​

​

2. Ability

- Not having to worry about status as much due to Shed Skin (whether it be burn/para/poison) is a very handy trait for Scrafty (and sweepers in general)

- Moxie is another option, and a very good ability that gives Scrafty immense snowball potential
​

3. Movepool/Tera

- Scrafty's movepool is quite nice (aided by STAB Drain Punch and Knock Off). It has variability in its set up moves (Bulk Up vs Dragon Dance), and it can run Zen Headbutt to punish mons that would otherwise wall it in Okidogi and Toxapex.

- I've personally been running Tera Poison to resist Fighting/Fairy, but I feel you can also experiment with Tera Elec as well (whichs comes with the positive of completely flipping the Zapdos MU, although the bird will be gone soon anyways, so meh)
​

Replays
EPL Week 3
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2212322657-v6q1n26zac7n6a08yiq2th8dna0pvocpw

Scrafty helped out immensely in allowing me to get hazards up in the game (by acting as a Dark Pulse sponge against Specs Gren turn 2 and influencing my opponent in clicking Surf later)

Ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2198349415-frrlnj4d1zb4o1q6c9p57b011r04zsdpw

Scrafty casually punishing stall (albeit my opponent did not run Avalugg, which would've made the game more interesting) Scrafty's coverage and ability came up big in this match (Zen Headbutt allowing me to hit Toxapex and Tera Poison Dirge decently well, while Shed Skin freeing me from the Toxic timer).

Ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2212929869-x8yscopmbwiykajgnogs7x1092hbby8pw

Scrafty putting in work, 1v1'ing a Milotic

Ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2196861645

Opponent misplaying/underestimating Scrafty led to a sweep

---

All in all, I feel this mon has a role in certain teams, and it performs those roles well enough

 

[Ehmcee]

neat

 

[Lily]

Zapdos moved from UU to OU

Blissey moved from OU to UU
Clodsire moved from OU to UU
Heatran moved from OU to UU
Skarmory moved from OU to UU
Weavile moved from OU to UU

--

We've lost a staple and gained 5 very good Pokemon that will all almost certainly shape the meta in some way - a certain weasel may even be too much...

Very excited to see how this shift plays out. What're you guys most excited for?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

almost certainly broken... SD + 3 attacks is generally very dumb esp since ice shard i think at +2 kills hoopa u

+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this isnt even hard to achieve because hoopa takes so much hazard chip from switching in and out of battle.

+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I pressed enter to early)

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 150-177 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And other resists like coba take so much dmg

almost certainly top tier... more hazards means hoopa u is prob getting banned esp since this mon is act way better than gligar at spiking esp since body press nukes the fuck out of exca

160+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 288-340 (72 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And ID + Press allows it to 1v1 mandibuzz (who isnt even that good) and with the loss of zapdos means less mons can act just screw with it

Flame body allows us to finally punish the crap out of lokix, thank fuck lol.

Great rocker and timid heatran outruns bulky drill which should force drill to be faster rn, this also means with tera blast it is one of the better lures to stuff like slowking, rotom-w, pex and magma storm + chip allows it ot heavily damage torn-t

Excellent mon in the tier although im not sure how much spikes and bad removal will hurt it

Tree stall gets better esp with clod and skarm so interesitng to see

walls the crap out of waters so stuff like rotom-w, slowking, choice gren, keldeo, azu, pex are just walled by it and free spike fother. With EQ + Toxic it can accumulate a lot of chip dmg and i assume we will see a lot more Tera flying + sub and tera steel latios

 

[BolTingBlazie]

almost certainly broken... SD + 3 attacks is generally very dumb esp since ice shard i think at +2 kills hoopa u

+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this isnt even hard to achieve because hoopa takes so much hazard chip from switching in and out of battle.

Now I wish we got meowscarada... Why does OU want to preserve meowscarada so much? Low ladder must love that mon or something because it isn't even that good.

Hope Weavile gets quick banned because what the hell are you supposed to do when Weavile clicks tera ice and starts throwing off nuclear triple axels at this lower power level tier? Only heatran seems like a reasonable answer besides lokix.

 

[correcthorse666]

We've lost a staple and gained 5 very good Pokemon that will all almost certainly shape the meta in some way - a certain weasel may even be too much...

Very excited to see how this shift plays out. What're you guys most excited for?

I'm honestly excited for stall. Blissey is much better than Chansey, it makes boots spam an option and can run stuff like Shadow Ball because it has more than 35 SpA. Skarmory's a great physical wall and knock absorber. And Closure is a special unaware wall that is good into some very problematic matchups in Pecharunt and Okidogi, and can run rocks to free up the moveslot on Blissey. Heatran is gonna be a bit of a menace though, as will Skarmory spike stack and old problems like Hoopa-U.

Also, Weavile is almost certainly gonna displace Hoopa-U as the tier's most broken dark type. I can't wait until I have time to try it out.

 

[mintwinter]

this is absolutely going to be much more impactful than the last drop

upgrade from chansey i guess. not too familiar with stall but it doesn’t seem to do anything too different

new hazard setter and special wall, absolutely a win for fatter structures. it’s better than gastrodon and it doesn’t have to compete with shit like ting-lu here

unfamiliar with uu when heatran was here, it’s probably going to be a pain to deal with especially with tera. we have slowking and now clod, and loads of things that deal with it offensively before tera, so it might be ok?

super excited for this one, we finally have a first impression switch that doesn’t mind getting knocked off at all, with reliable recovery, another win for bulkier structures. i think i’ve seen people point out how a reliable spikes setter could enable already threatening mons in the tier even further though

basically the fastest mon in the tier. we have stuff like keldeo, quaquaval, azu and skarm but i imagine this is going to be horrible to deal with.

oh yeah almost forgot the zapdos rise… i think skarm and torn should be able to handle most of the threats that zap used to check

overall really excited to build new teams, i’ve got a couple of ideas that i’ll try out and might even post them here if they’re successful

 

[ant4456]

we have stuff like keldeo, quaquaval, azu and skarm but

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 202-240 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 224-265 (72 - 85.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 224-265 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 227-269 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

it seems that basically all of its checks lose if they have 30% chipped tbh, also this is before tera

+2 252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 304-360 (91 - 107.7%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

(i mean, idk if this would be the skarm spread here i just took what was in the calc)

but i mean ofc other mons can tera too so its not like weavile alone can do that, but still

tbh this mon looks like a headache

 

[BolTingBlazie]

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 202-240 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 224-265 (72 - 85.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 224-265 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 227-269 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

it seems that basically all of its checks lose if they have 30% chipped tbh, also this is before tera

+2 252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 304-360 (91 - 107.7%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

(i mean, idk if this would be the skarm spread here i just took what was in the calc)

but i mean ofc other mons can tera too so its not like weavile alone can do that, but still

tbh this mon looks like a headache

Soooo the only real checks are Scizor, Lokix, and Heatran. Yep this thing is already an issue

 

[udongirl]

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 202-240 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 224-265 (72 - 85.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 224-265 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 227-269 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

it seems that basically all of its checks lose if they have 30% chipped tbh, also this is before tera

+2 252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 304-360 (91 - 107.7%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

(i mean, idk if this would be the skarm spread here i just took what was in the calc)

but i mean ofc other mons can tera too so its not like weavile alone can do that, but still

tbh this mon looks like a headache

I am not sure, but if you attacked your opponent at +2, then it would probably be knocked down by one hit. For example, if you are keldeo, you can switch to sd and withstand its attack and defeat it with a counter attack.

 

[seiuqq]

Heatran. You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME RN.

ok as a person who's heavily biased towards a slightly niche playstyle in sun, heatran basically removed all viability for sun. This is biased but I have other reasons why I don't like this.

Fire types in this tier now suck. Except for tran of course. Flash fire powers up heatran's own magma storm which is just a nuke.

My prediction is the fall of Mamoswine and the rise of alternative grounds like Donphan (jk they get willo wisped)

 

[ant4456]

I am not sure, but if you attacked your opponent at +2, then it would probably be knocked down by one hit. For example, if you are keldeo, you can switch to sd and withstand its attack and defeat it with a counter attack.

ofc but you have to assume your checks will get chipped throughout a game

for instance if you have hazards up, every time weavile SDs and keldeo switches in its taking damage, and eventually it won't be a check anymore

30% chip is very achievable especially since you might want your keldeo to be doing other things, with 1 spike and it coming in to attack a few times + check weavile a few times, it'll be in range very quickly

its still a check but its a very abusable if a mon only has so few checks