Metagame SV UU Metagame Discussion - The Indigo Disk

[correcthorse666]

ofc but you have to assume your checks will get chipped throughout a game

for instance if you have hazards up, every time weavile SDs and keldeo switches in its taking damage, and eventually it won't be a check anymore

30% chip is very achievable especially since you might want your keldeo to be doing other things, with 1 spike and it coming in to attack a few times + check weavile a few times, it'll be in range very quickly

its still a check but its a very abusable if a mon only has so few checks

Well, for Keldeo in particular can't be worn down that easy since Vacuum Wave one shots even without specs.

 

[ant4456]

Well, for Keldeo in particular can't be worn down that easy since Vacuum Wave one shots even without specs.

oh my bad I fucked up the calc on keldeo

but also it still kinda does matter because it can't switch in to triple axel consistently (if weavile predicts it and just clicks on switch), and if its specs locking it in on a 40bp move on a switch kinda sucks

you cant just rely on priority, you need actual defensive checks for a mon for it to not be busted

 

[Twilight]

Heatran. You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME RN.

ok as a person who's heavily biased towards a slightly niche playstyle in sun, heatran basically removed all viability for sun. This is biased but I have other reasons why I don't like this.

Fire types in this tier now suck. Except for tran of course. Flash fire powers up heatran's own magma storm which is just a nuke.

My prediction is the fall of Mamoswine and the rise of alternative grounds like Donphan (jk they get willo wisped)

Sun doesn't become dead with heatran. The best abuser was Sandy Shocks and that is a mon that couldn't care less. If you only run sun teams for the purpose of spamming Specs Overheat/Eruption then sure but not every Heatran will be Flash Fire + Heatran itself is a sun abuser.

Fire types in this tier already sucked. Like there are literally none besides from Skeledirge and that mostly sees play for its defensive value over offensive on most teams. Harcanine exists but that mon fell off hard ages ago and spams Head Smash more than anything.

I don't have a strong opinion on how the tier will shape though Zapdos leaving does mean a lot of mons no longer have to fear being crippled. Torn is a big winner here in that regard. Anyway I'll be curious to see how it plays out.

 

[MC Squared]

Now I wish we got meowscarada... Why does OU want to preserve meowscarada so much? Low ladder must love that mon or something because it isn't even that good..

Because it's been an OU mainstay since 2022. Never dropped out of OU

 

[ant4456]

Sun doesn't become dead with heatran. The best abuser was Sandy Shocks and that is a mon that couldn't care less. If you only run sun teams for the purpose of spamming Specs Overheat/Eruption then sure but not every Heatran will be Flash Fire + Heatran itself is a sun abuser.

also while we'll have to wait and see, heatran going flame body as a weavile check is reasonable at this stage of speculation, which would make that fire immunity not even really relevant

 

[seiuqq]

I am not sure, but if you attacked your opponent at +2, then it would probably be knocked down by one hit. For example, if you are keldeo, you can switch to sd and withstand its attack and defeat it with a counter attack.

And weavile can use something known as terastallize ground

 

[seiuqq]

Sun doesn't become dead with heatran. The best abuser was Sandy Shocks and that is a mon that couldn't care less. If you only run sun teams for the purpose of spamming Specs Overheat/Eruption then sure but not every Heatran will be Flash Fire + Heatran itself is a sun abuser.

Fire types in this tier already sucked. Like there are literally none besides from Skeledirge and that mostly sees play for its defensive value over offensive on most teams. Harcanine exists but that mon fell off hard ages ago and spams Head Smash more than anything.

I don't have a strong opinion on how the tier will shape though Zapdos leaving does mean a lot of mons no longer have to fear being crippled. Torn is a big winner here in that regard. Anyway I'll be curious to see how it plays out.

Well yes you bring up a good point but I have precedence. That one month heatran was on the ladder could be in Oxford Dictionary as a definition of "hell". Actually now that I think about it, this may be good! In gen8 OU there was an era where volcanion rain was on top because it was an abuser and a failsafe against the playstyle and I think sun may be similar with Heatran, that it's a stop and an abuser.

My favorite sun abuser was:
Brute Bonnet @ Black Glasses
Ability: Protosynthesis
- Growth
- Spore / Crunch
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
and this thing has its existence ended by heatran.

As for sandy, you are very correct. If it's air balloon (which i'm sure will be the most common item), it just volt switches out into something else on the team suited to counter heatran, it just comes back in and claims the thing for free.

But as with gen9 always, tera complicates things and from my experience this is always in the Heatran player's favor. Heatran defensively pulling tera to bug or grass is pretty bad and could lose the sun player the game on the spot.

So I think a viable (or as viable as sun can be in this meta) setup for sun would be:
- Torkoal: Ideally with hazards and rapid spin
- Sandy Shocks: Best abuser
- Brute Bonnet: Game ender but you have to be cautious about okidogi and heatran
- Venusaur: Stacking double grass here to have a speedy game ender as well
- Heatran and/or Hisuian Typhlosion/Arcanine: literally just spams fire damage. If fire types suck, fire resists won't be that common.
- Scream Tail - Eject Button user that can also wish pass to teammates to give them a second chance at sweeping

 

[UnusualBoy]

Because it's been an OU mainstay since 2022. Never dropped out of OU

iirc Meowscarada dropped to UU last year, it only returned to OU when it gained triple axel.

 

[udongirl]

And weavile can use something known as terastallize ground

+2 252 Atk Tera Ground Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

thoughts of this shifts:
Needless to say, this is a rise that will cause damage to this tier. With the leaving of zap, which has served as a deterrent to many pokemon, the UUBL list will swell significantly.
I am also concerned about the negative impact on this tier of a much more powerful spiker than gligar: as a hazard setter it is advantageous to both excadrill and mandibuzz, it is an extremely troublesome pokemon that possesses recovery and also has excellent bulk.
This is the most exciting thing in this drop, bringing a new fire type option to the tier and providing a counterpoint to the newly dropped stall option.
The extent to which options are developed will determine whether this mon will be banned. When I was SS OU, low kick was not very popular while effective for many pokemon in the tier, so it is quite possible that the set will be restricted.

 

[Moyashi]

Because it's been an OU mainstay since 2022. Never dropped out of OU

This is completely wrong. Meow was in this tier for a very lengthy time this generation when it fell during the HOME meta game and didn’t rise back until earlier this year.

 

[Magcargo]

With two great new checks to it in skarmory and Weavile, I think it's time UU considered giving Garchomp another chance.

 

[Catcus]

Happy October Shifts! We got some pretty major ones this time.

Static bird was more annoying than anything. Realistically I doubt anything is pushed over the edge by it leaving, it mostly just results in certain mons changing coverage (iron head on exca, cc on scizor, Etc). However, It leaving lets a ton of niche mons shine like Gapdos and bellibolt. Overall I'd say it's a positive change.
Biggest drop imo. I'm kinda iffy on it. On one hand, it's super easy to revenge kill with pretty much all of our rkillers taking it on handily, but on the other hand, It almost no good switch-ins. With Stabs + fighting coverage, pretty much all of the tier gets dropped, and the few that don't still get knocked anyways. I doubt it's ever sweeping teams but it's great at slowly picking off mons till you lose. It reminds me a ton of boulder, but unlike boulder it gets to hold boots. Feels like too much.
A fire type! Skeledirge was really the only fire type before( and it usually terad anyways) and one that punishes contact is pretty cool. Magma storm is nice for beating some bulker mons(though it often needs tera). Idk how good it'll be but it's at least decent.
spiker with a godly defensive profile that hard walls excadrill. Spikes were already rising a ton before so this just solidifies it. It has some major passivity issues, but It still looks great for bulkier teams.
Waiter! Waiter! More Spikes Please!! Realistically I doubt it's that good of a spiker since drill destroys it, but it looks good anyways. Water Absorb gives it a great match-up into most if all of our major volt-switchers (Shocks isn't real sssssshhhhh). Toxic is a rare commodity as well as the poison type in general. I doubt it'll be top tier, but it'll be pretty decent.
jesus ou gave us a lot of stall mons. Easily the most niche drop since its pretty much exclusive to stall/semistall, but with the rest of the stall mons, the playstyle looks rife with potential so it could be ok

I Might make a post later about all the winners and losers, for now I'll say I think the big winners are and . also, lets all take a moment to pay respects to rhyperior cause that mon is dead in the water without zap

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Because it's been an OU mainstay since 2022. Never dropped out of OU

Honestly meow isn't even that good in OU, but ladder really wants to make it work. It was good for a time but fell off hard.


Weavile is still very much OU relevant though so it is surprising to see it down here even if ladder didn't use it probably because Kyurem was right there and is a far more potent ice type.

 

[Magcargo]

So some initial impressions on the drops I've used.

This Pokémon feels.... good? I'm not a fan of weavile whenever I used it earlier in the gen, in both DLC1 UU and OU, and it felt iffy in gen 8 as well, but it feels great here. Being one of the few guys who can make brainless Torn-T switch out in fear is awesome and it's got some nice utility against other Pokémon like latios as well. The strong defensive partners like Skarm and clod really help leverage it's strengths as a strong Knocker. I love that it's also so good against the 3 big regen Pokémon of UU, which imo are extremely annoying and limiting. I hope this Pokemon is not QB'd or suspected any time soon given its awkward MUs into Skarm, opposing Weav, Dogi / Coba, etc.

feels amazing. I think this Pokémon will fall down in viability as time goes on, with crap like magnezone probably being used, but it has strong utility against all the other drops + staples like lowkix. Very good spikes setter and with its buddy weavile, it can create tricky situations pretty fast.

i think this guy's role compression is worse than OU, but eh, it's got good MUs into common shitters like Gren, Pecha, Pex, etc, can setup its own hazards on opposing skarm, etc. Not bad at all but will prob fall down in VR over time.

With the Skarm / Clod hazard epidemic, I'm liking Pokémon like Reuniclus and Sinistcha more rn because they can help maintain pressure with their passive damage immunity and spin locking capabilities respectively. Sinistcha loves Zapdos going making Stun Spore Hex sets much better.

 

[seiuqq]

+2 252 Atk Tera Ground Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

thoughts of this shifts:
Needless to say, this is a rise that will cause damage to this tier. With the leaving of zap, which has served as a deterrent to many pokemon, the UUBL list will swell significantly.
I am also concerned about the negative impact on this tier of a much more powerful spiker than gligar: as a hazard setter it is advantageous to both excadrill and mandibuzz, it is an extremely troublesome pokemon that possesses recovery and also has excellent bulk.
This is the most exciting thing in this drop, bringing a new fire type option to the tier and providing a counterpoint to the newly dropped stall option.
The extent to which options are developed will determine whether this mon will be banned. When I was SS OU, low kick was not very popular while effective for many pokemon in the tier, so it is quite possible that the set will be restricted.

Tera ground from my experience exists as a way to lure and KO heatran

 

[Medeia]

Tera ground from my experience exists as a way to lure and KO heatran

Low Kick pretty much achieves the same against Heatran, you would mostly tech Tera Ground Tera Blast to screw over Tinkaton (if no Air Balloon intact), Cobalion (tho Low Kick also hits that mon), Toxapex, healthy Okidogi and Keldeo + Ququaval after SD.

 

[ant4456]

Weavile @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Tera Blast
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 300-354 (96.4 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 76-90 (27 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 247-292 (79.4 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 258-305 (90.5 - 107%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 686-810 (240.7 - 284.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 540-636 (167.1 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Electric Weavile: 111-132 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 300-354 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
160+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 136-160 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 594-702 (174.1 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 169-201 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Azumarill: 450-530 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 410-486 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 594-702 (190.9 - 225.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 217-256 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 329-391 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Okidogi Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Weavile: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 220-259 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-Wash: 211-250 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-Wash: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 152+ Def Toxapex: 282-332 (93 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tera Electric Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera: 289-341 (96 - 113.2%) -- approx. OHKO after Stealth Rock


I think this is a very good set that kinda just owns a lot of checks. Not entirely uncheckable (mainly CB Lokix, Heatran at higher percent, uhhhh) but it fixes a lot of its matchups, and while having something like Low Kick is nice, I don't see it as a massive loss to "only" have Triple Axel and Knock Off without Tera when those moves do insane damage. I think for a third attack this gives the most options while still having genuine defensive Tera utility, losing your weakness to a decent amount of attacks, letting you 1v1 even when you're so frail.

 

[vivalospride]

gonna drop tidbits of thoughts, I haven’t touched these mons yet since they’ve became active on ladder but starting next week I’ll be touching them quite a bit (pause)

but wanna lay out some random stuff that comes to mind when I think about their potential impact on the metagame

- I wanna say I have kinda been waiting for this thing to rise, I think the “oh golly we can’t lose zapdos it’ll ruin the tier” stuff is strange. I think zapdos was a great glue pick in this tier that helped a lot of different matchups, most notably Excadrill and Tornadus-T which many would consider either the top 2 or top whatever pokemon in the tier in terms of viability and/or splashability. Regardless of this, Zapdos was kind of a bitch to deal with and I think was a root to a lot of annoying dynamics and sequences like Static fishing… and a defensive pokemon being threatening as all hell due to how ill equipped the tier mostly was for electric + flying + fire coverage. Anyways I don’t feel super strongly abt this, I mostly have been wanting to see how the tier shakes out with it gone for a while and while I don’t know it’ll be better and it even could be worse, I 100% wouldn’t be surprised if it ended up being more enjoyable down the road with no zap.

- At a glance ye this thing should be very good. It’s another fast as fuck boy option which I always personally appreciate. I am not quite sure what impact it will have on the tier that is specifically positive. I feel like two spikers dropping and another great rocker, and then this guy? Idk I am just kinda assuming spikes will be very good LOL. I suppose Weavile’s existence helps cushion the blow of zapdos leaving in regards to torn’s dominance but this is obviously a VERY small cushion as zapdos and weavile are not alike in the slightest lol. Basically I wanna see what tera’s/3atks people use. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some Tera Ghost on it for Body Press and to spinblock cheeky excas. Fast knock wincon/breaker dropped w spikers def a vibe to be aware of. We will see how it pans out

- LpZ Sorry this was all I could do… hope it’s good enough. Skarm is a weird vibe but it is actual that the removal in this tier is legitimately not equipped to click a removal move on this thing as it spikes. Excadrill and Mandibuzz permanently lose :(. It’s defensive capabilities are definitely something to take note of and there’s definitely a fair few threats that get hard walled by this man, but as per usual I believe it’s gonna have to choose between body press or bb or whirlwind or ID or whatever, and maybe lose out on some of it’s defensive capabilities depending on which it chooses. I think tera ghost on physical wincons will be good as hell, with Zapdos leaving and making tera electric not rly as necessary, although torn is a demon. IDK I bet we as a community will pull some PU hazard removal option out of our ass or something to deal w spikes in totality if it comes to it.

- Idk what to say abt this thing really I don’t care for it as it’s just some big backed bitch. Any Unaware pokemon that is fat as hell is a mon I am not interested in seeing in my tier unless its name is Skeledirge. With that said similarly to Skarmory this guy does click Spikes pretty confidently, Mandi doesn’t beat and Exca cannot come in on it without fear. I bet clod will be splashed onto teams in a similar fashion to skarm bc of how well it’ll just blanket check a myriad of special threats even if you go the Water Absorb route. This thing probably would’ve been semi-cool to have in a tier with a dominant Zapdos but ye idk? idc we will see

- Shiba come home the kids miss you

- Honestly I think it’s a hot take but I loved the short era of UU that Heatran absolutely ran the fuck through. I think it’s a fun pokemon with both offensive and defensive utility and capabilities. Will it have a specifically amazing impact on the tier, idk it’s probably hard to say. I enjoy another steel typing being added to the mix, and I enjoy another fire type being added to the mix, I also enjoy a viable rocker being added to the mix. Honestly this tier has had hardly any sturdy steels, sturdy rockers, etc. In its life span, somehow Tinkaton is still going semi-ish strong-kinda in late 2024. So I am excited for my own personal gain of this mon being in the tier, less excited to face it though.

—-

- I wanna note that I think this thing probably even got better by a decent margin with these drops despite Heatran coming into the picture. You will probably just have to run EP on it, Skeledirge is great at abusing certain mons in kind of an “offensive way” bc it’s STAB boosts it’s SpA, so I think this thing kinda infinitely coming in on Skarm will be pretty annoying for those structures.

 

[Twilight]

IDK I bet we as a community will pull some PU hazard removal option out of our ass or something to deal w spikes in totality if it comes to it.

Not PU but I've been using Talon a bit as a means to deal with how Spikes-heavy UU is rn.

Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Talonflame is the only Pokemon I have liked that can remove hazards against Skarmory and it also has the benefit of outpacing Weavile. You have to go Flamethrower or you lose to Skarm 1vs1... It does well into Coba, Sciz, and Drill + loves Zapdos leaving to avoid being punished by Static. U-turn seems pretty impossible to give up with Heatran here now, so it is hard to run Wisp. Not sure what tera is best, I never really pressed it so perhaps a more common one pops up. Anyway, if people are desperate (like me) then Talon may work on some builds.

Aside from that, I'll just highlight another mon I tried for quite a bit rather than regurgitate opinions on the new stuff.

No Zapdos makes Gapdos actually usable now. Yes Skarm dropping blows but you can at least break through it and removing its Helmet is easy enough for it to do itself or with support. Choice Scarf does well into the common Scarfers rn in Hoopa and Gardevoir. I have yet to try CB as of right now (Will maybe later today or tomorrow) but it has the ability to 2HKO Skarm and hit the rest of the tier hard. Worth exploring more too.

 

[Lizzie]

Early impressions:
It's good but has some issues getting on the field, there are good revenge killers for sd and reasonable punishes for its moves.

feels somewhat awkward to slot, it will probably take a couple weeks to see its full potential but its movepool is broken and it has interesting defensive utility so how bad can it be.

assume people will find a way to make use of it but it's so passive compared to existing spikers and let's your opponent do basically whatever they want which feels bad in such a momentum heavy tier.

Didn't see clod or bliss, clod I think has pretty solid potential, the mons it lets in aren't as threatening as mons skarm lets in and its pretty disruptive for volt-turn stuff so it's spikes are worth. Overall don't feel the tier has changed too much, tran shakes things up a bit but the rest kind of fit in with a lot of existing dynamics.

 

[haunted paper]

The drops are very interesting for me as well. Tornadus-Therian and Hoopa-U have always been top threats for me. Scizor and Excadrill came in close tied for 3rd place. Those 4 mons were always highly problematic to go up against and take on in long games. And now I think Excadrill might not be so bad, but Torn-T, Hoopa-U, and Scizor might still be problematic.

As many people have pointed out already, Skarmory is a great physical defensive wall and a possible good spiker. Here's the thing though, that might be understated. Skarm + Bliss might make a rude comeback. Weavile has terrible bulk and defensive typing, but Skarm + Bliss can fix this. Skarm setting up spikes and being a defensive pivot for Weavile could be really good. Put rocky helmet on it and Knock from Weavile + Rocky Helm chip + Spikes can wear down physical checks like Scizor, Cobalion, Azumarill, and Tinkaton big time. Blissey with HDB will be a great hole patcher due to its' overwhelming special bulk and access to stealth rocks + heal bell. The last 3 team slots can be so easily taken. These 3 mons can fit on stall, balance, or bulky HO. If Keldeo is a problem: Slowking or Toxapex or AV Torn-T. Honestly, Hazard Stack Weasel Balance.

This just pairs so well with physical walls like Skarmory, Cobalion, and Toxapex. I could see counter sets being annoying too.

Heatran will just be a solid blanket check to so many mons but never really doing a lot. This is a ground type tier with so many mons carrying coverage for steel types. Torn-T has focus blast, Scizor has CC, and Weavile has low kick. Then there is Keldeo, Azumarill, and Quaquaval, as well as Okidogi and Cobalion. So, it won't be easy using this mon but it will be rewarding with the right predicts and burns. Great answer to Lokix the Menace.

 

[Slip]

Hello! I'm supposed to be packing for a trip and doing the dishes, but instead I feel like writing out my day 1 findings. I am going to go over the new drops first, highlight some of the mons we already had, and finally what I think is going to fall off. For context: I have not made a team with every new mon yet, but I have faced or played with every mon that I will mention.

---

New Drops
Stall players rejoice! You now have a great Sp. Def option that will not get instantly owned by spikes! The downside for the play style (not to even mention the amount of taunt mons available) is that it is still extremely easy to fit knock off on your team and excadrill runs your pockets (unaware mons shaking in their boots). Having access to rocks is very nice to free up your ground type move pools, thunderwave can be great for a more balance team approach, and it being the only real mon that can access heal bell makes it great glue to any fat team. I expect to see it a lot tbh as it does quite well to block most Sp. Atk users, and the ones it needs help with are easy to account for. Maybe one day I will become evil and load it up on ladder but until then hf and pray you don't run into taunt users.

I already defended GOATSIRE in the uu cord, but this mon is gonna be OK ! I think we will be able to find some really neat sets for it to where this thing will be some form of a mix wall, toxic spreader, and either unaware sweeper stopper or water absorb cuck beast. I do feel like it has very big downsides in the fact that it gets walled by skarmory and balloon steel / poison types, but those kinda all fit into the same category of coverage to build around imo. I think this thing will have a slow start but will end up being a B- to B mon on the VR the further into the meta we get.

Having a good fire type is pretty sick. Ability flexibility depending on wanting to make certain mons think twice about clicking u-turn or wanting to win the heatran 1v1. Magma storm trapping with taunt being a huge issue for the 3 new stall mons we got, and also access to rocks makes this mon great glue for any team. Gonna be high VR and I think we will see it in most styles of play.

My king has finally returned....... goated ass mon. Has some new troubles that it didn't have in the SS days, but still a great glue. Access to spikes makes stacking so much easier while also letting you run more offensive ground types (EXCADRILL EXCADRILL EXCADRILL). I have this thing soft checking serperiors and hydrapples too. Rocky helmet feels great and tera ghost is a great backup option for gettting chipped down vs okidogis. Keep this one on your radar its a meta shifter fs.

Honestly when I saw it was gonna come back I was thinking to send it to the shadow realm ASAP due to a lot of the old meta team setups. But actually I think its fine. Our bulky waters and steels do a great job dealing with it to keep it in control meaning you have to at least position right to get the late game sweep off imo. It'll be a great offense mon but not a must bring for the style imo. Great knocker too !

Still Around / Rising Stars
This mon is still strong as hell. CC chips skarm extremely well for a physical mon, choice scarf gunk has put me into positions where I just threaten an entire team a handful of times, and the respect the oppenent has to give a lot of the time makes for easy doubles. I dont think this mon is going anywhere soon and is probably still one of our top dogs.

Goated mon rn. Spreading will-o + pivot feels unbelievably good. Easy to pain split a lot more now too. Pairs great with heatran as always. Not much to say as the set hasn't changed much other than it being a great electric option to replace zapdos. Keep an eye out for this mon.

Think this mon is going to be a lot better now with Zap gone. Torn is still great and threatens sini a lot, but skarmory or other flying types have more abilities to replace torn on teams now, making sini have one of its checks a bit less prevalent and the main one completely gone (tera on this mon is always great too). I think the meta is going to get a bit fatter to deal with some of our strong attackers now that we have the tools, and the last time I felt the meta was like that Sini was always great to have around. I expect it to keep getting better and better with these shifts.

Man this mon is surprisingly annoying for how I want to build rn. Tanky as hell mon that a lot of the drops kinda struggle with on top of the team structures around them. I feel like if it brings the right tera it will just claim half your team. More offensive builds with EP are definitely viable too right now with heatran running around and the slight drop in some speed tiers on certain teams makes it work well. Its also great at stopping okidogi from doing its thing which can give a lot of opportunities to get some mileage off. Overall probably a bitter better of a bring now (even though it was still good before shifts)

Putting this one last cus I'm sure a few eyebrow raises have already happened before anyone started reading this section. Magneton is not only good/viable, but it is also better than magnezone. Magneton is a great enabler for our main offensive drop Weavile on teams. Choice scarf outspeeds and threatens all of our fast mons in some way, shape, or form and can make up for damage loss by being paired with our plethora of regenerator pokemon that would be carrying an eject button. It is the same idea from SS days (who woulda thought since we have all the same steel types), except now you can also threaten excadrills with tera ground / fire / water / fighting. I am personally a tera ground fan as you can also have a lot easier of a time trapping heatran and can catch pokemon like sandy shocks or pokemon that like to tera electric (serperior) or steel (hydrapple) off guard. Choice specs variations can also still run modest while outspeeding and killing offensive scizor spreads while threatening bulkier pokemon (usually tera'd bulky pokemon) better. I understand this is a bit of a gimmick at first glance, but the steel types / tera types are a very important glue in this tier imo. Having a pokemon that can reliable disrupt their plans in order to release strong attackers the tier has access to (weavile, latios, hydrapple, scizor, etc.) can be extremely valuable to have. I recommend you go try it yourself and see if it brings you success as it has for me on day 1.

Send to Shadow Realm
Suboptimal glue mon became more suboptimal today imo. Having access to toxic and knock is great, but usually has 4mss with trying to control hazards or foul play setup mons so your team doesn't lose to the one mon it's weak against. I think other mons are just able to prevent sweeps better or remove hazards better rn. Better knockers in TTar or weavile, and better toxic users in Toxapex, Clodsire, and poison touch okidogi (this counts). Expect to see less and less of this hopefully it gets good RU usage.

A lot less reliable of a ground type now that it isn't able to annoy zapdos. I do think an offensive set has some potential on certain teams with substitute + para spam or rock polish + spikes, but overall it is going to need to be reimagined. A quick look at the VR says B+ right now and I think it's easy to say thats a quick step down.

Better ground flexibility for offensive mons + skarmory gap + weavile drop + no roost + early 2010s tongue in picture pose + i don't like this mon anyways. Cool that it has u-turn and toxic I guess (and can't get toxic'd) but I would rather use anything else.

Think cornerstone will still be fine, but I think ogerpon feels a little lost rn. It is probably still a great encore + knock + pivot option, but I think finding the mileage it once did could prove to be a little hard. Maybe I can pair it with skarm trapper and it actually goes hard still but I haven't been impressed when I see it.

It was cool this thing had viability, but I kinda think it will struggle into a lot of the main walls now. Maybe it can get its chance still but I think the set is either going to be tera reliant / have 4mss now to maybe fix some mu issues.

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Thank you for reading if you made it this far! I actually had a lot of fun playing the meta today I havent enjoyed the ladder this much in a long while. I think the meta development rn will be very good and I think if I just play it when I feel like laddering I will have a great time. I'm reading through all the other posts right now as the takes have also been fun to read. Maybe I will make an update in a month or so and we will see how things have changed lol.

 

[correcthorse666]

I've actually had a chance to play the tier since the drops now, and here are my early impressions:

: Surprisingly balanced. Best team building practices already include stacking dark resists and our fat waters not named Slowking tend to do pretty well into it. On top of that, our revenge killing tools are good into it as well. Maybe further developments will prove it broken, but for now this is joining Cornerpon as really broken on paper but less so then practice.

: It's a good physical wall, knock absorbed, and spiker. Has 4mss issues though, and generally gets farmed by tera ghost. It's kinda being spammed by ladder last I was on, but I think it'll still be solid once new toy syndrome wears off.

Huge boon to stall, since it can wear boots, and has the ability to run non-Seismic Toss attacking moves. The one stall I ran into on ladder I was able to dismantle pretty easily though, and stall still has a lot of issues in the builder. I think it'll still maintain fringe viability though.

This thing has stupid levels of special bulk and toxic + EQ is still really annoying to switch into. Between that and hazards spam I think this has a place on fatter teams.

This thing is good. It's a lot like Zapdos- a fat contact punisher and gambling merchant. Gets shredded by hazards though, and generally lacks longevity even with lefties. It's gonna be pretty defining element of the tier moving forward, but it's not broken by any means.

Obviously not a new mon, but my initial impression is that this is the biggest winner of the shifts. No zap for competition, immune to spikes, not weak to rocks, checks all but one of the drops (not water absorb Clod, but even that hates burns), it's great. I don't know where it is on the VR right now, but I think it needs to go up a couple ranks.

 

[ASKOV]

IDK I bet we as a community will pull some PU hazard removal option out of our ass or something to deal w spikes in totality if it comes to it.

(with levitate it also defogs vs clodsire which is nice)

 

[Cheryl.]

Some observations from spamming HO for 2 hours and then getting mad that I'm fighting the same players because I'm playing one session without any breaks:

This guy has been the star of my laddering so far. Iirc it was originally innovated on HO as a sweeper that could withstand hits from Lokix without the help of Screens, and while that is a great niche on its own, this mon is a legitimately insane sweeper in general. Gunk Shot/High Horsepower/Temper Flare covers like 98% of the non-Tera'd tier on its own (barring Flash Fire Air Balloon Heatran, the shockingly rare Grounds that are neutral to HH like Krookodile and Hippowdon, and Hippo has to deal with popping your Balloon first) and when boosted Vroom actually hits like two trucks at once for some reason. Its typing is rather decent paired with Air Balloon giving you plenty of natural setup opportunities on stuff like Excadrill and Ogerpon-Cornerstone. The unique trait of Temper Flare's power becoming doubled when you fail an attack actually comes in handy quite a bit when using this mon because its other attacks have a lot of common immunities. It can lead to funny calcs like +1 Temper Flare annihilating a Skarmory that thinks its being fat after it's swapped in on a Gunk Shot. I do think part of my success with the mon comes from unfamiliarity, though. Revavroom, until a couple of weeks ago, was a RU shitter that nobody playing UU would have any reason to worry about. It didn't help that a couple of weeks ago, HO was on a severe downtrend. Now with some more experimentation being given to HO as a playstyle (and the rise of Zapdos helping a tad) more "niche" setup mons like Revavroom are being given a spotlight as potentially real meta mons. I'll say this; if your team can't deal with boosted Poison/Ground/Fire coverage, scrap it immediately and try again. You do not want to deal with the rise of the modern-day car.

Didn't use this mon on the HO squad, but since this is SV UU, I ran into Torn a lot. And uh... am I in the minority for feeling that Torn isn't being used to its fullest potential with Zapdos gone? Zapdos was one of Torn's biggest roadblocks both as a pivot and as a potential sweeper with Nasty Plot. NP Torn was practically extinct during Zapdos meta cause you were forced to Tera to even function, but I think there's room for that set to come back with Zap gone. Its no longer a huge Tera hog and I feel like a set of NP/Flying STAB/Focus Blast (yes Focus Blast not your wimpy Tera Blast Heatran lure we dont need that shit here)/Heat Wave or Taunt or something something just kinda... cooks the entire tier? Like pop a Tera Fire on that bad boy and Scizor is no longer an issue, or hell Tera Electric isn't even the worst idea still with stuff like Rotom-W and Thundy-T still existing. I guess there are some good checks lurking out there still for NP Torn (Rotom-W getting a million% usage post-shifts likely won't help) and it certainly won't become broken with Zapdos gone, but I encourage people to give it a try once more. Like, SURELY its not bad.

Ladder can't get enough of Cornerstone but the more I run into it the more I feel it's terribly inconsistent at doing its job. The moment hazards are up its on life support because it can barely switch in on anything in the first place, and now its lifeline of a guaranteed life via Sturdy is cooked. And even when it gets onto the field, it barely kills more than a single mon unless you majorly outplay because it never OHKOes anything neutral with Ivy Cudgel/Power Whip and once again its got mediocre bulk + a meh defensive typing. On paper, sure it cooks everything and I could see it benefitting from teams opting for Heatran as their Steel over something like Coba but then again they're probably gonna run like Okidogi the goat with Heatran and now you either run Zen Headbutt or do 0 with Stomping Tantrum and die. Skarm also looks like a FeelsBad for this mon but at least you can Encore it? Idk man Grasspon has looked much more consistent to me and that mon has 0 coverage

HO Screeners are a competitive market right now, I've seen some really cool ones like Webs + Screens Ribombee. But Serp is really the ol' reliable I feel. Combining a naturally threatening mon standalone + Glare cheese + fast Screens can never go wrong. Some games I use it and I feel like writing a rant to ban this mon for how cringe Glare can be (I've had some games where I feel bad even using it lmao), and other games its just alright, but its never bad in this role. As for other Serp sets, Sub + Glare isn't very well positioned in a Heatran meta, but I can see it being able to pull a game out of its ass sometimes. Glare is just that kind of move. Also a broken Tera Blast user

Either mid or broken as hell depending on how the opponent plays/matchup. Hate when Draining Kiss is sometimes just a little too weak to KO important threats but the satisfaction of a full Comfey sweep is great. I wonder if a Misty Surge Geezing build could be able to work with this mon so you can avoid rando Toxics/para moves without having to spend a turn Taunting.

I think I found one of these. Not gonna say much since I wasn't using a playstyle that would be very weak to it, but idk use it more?

Overall I'm surprised to say this but the meta feels like it has improved with Zapdos' leave. Genuinely thought a core defensive piece like it leaving would cause some major broken threats to rise up but it hasn't really felt that way so far. The experimentation from players on playstyles like HO help to diversify the tier that much more from the VoltTurn allegations it was facing in the past, and now with the drops I can see stall popping up a bit more too (only found one in my sesh today!). Gouda fun meta