SV UU Suspect Process Round 11 - Poison [NEW SUSPECT PROCESS]

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:sv/okidogi:
Hey all, we're back for yet another suspect test, and this time it's Okidogi!

quick note: yes, the Weavile test's voting process isn't technically over yet! we had already decided to test Okidogi after Weavile regardless of result, so this is just in the interest of time. thanks for your understanding!

For a while now Okidogi has been one of the most consistent and dreaded progress makers UU has to offer. We've all been on the receiving end of a nasty Toxic Chain proc; the ability is arguably the main catalyst behind Okidogi's viability, and there's no worse feeling than correctly predicting a Drain Punch and bringing in your Tornadus-T only to get poisoned anyway. This ability lets Okidogi theoretically break down any non-Poison-type given a long enough period of time, since no Steel-type wants anything to do with its Fighting moves, and Okidogi's great bulk and staying power provided by its great typing and Drain Punch give it the opportunity to do exactly that. Okidogi's STABs alone are already very nasty, but its coverage lets it bring even more pain; between Knock Off as an all-purpose progress maker and Psychic Fangs as a way to damage other Poison-types - most notably opposing Okidogi - there's not much Okidogi can't get through. With Tera at its disposal, it's not uncommon to see Okidogi clean up games incredibly easily after a single Bulk Up, since it can wall anything and everything given the opportunity with its great bulk and Defense boosting. It's not just beholden to these sets either; it's still plenty strong with Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Substitute + 3 Attacks, and just flat 4 Attack sets.

It's not all sunshine for Okidogi - it does have some notable weaknesses. The two best Pokemon in the tier, Excadrill and Tornadus-T, hit it super effectively with their STAB moves, making it forced to trade or Tera out of its weaknesses quite often. Some other Pokemon that are especially strong also threaten it heavily like Hoopa-U and Latios. It's also not super fast by any means, so if you do manage to get it low on HP it can be revenge killed quite easily by Pokemon that aren't particularly fast themselves like Lokix, Rotom-W, and speedy Heatran. Lots of Pokemon also run Psychic coverage for it, like Ogerpon and its Cornerstone sister as well as Thundurus-T.

This test has been talked to death by now, so let's get some results. What should we do with Okidogi?

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NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played UU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, vivalospride, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900. The deadline for getting requirements will be Sunday, November 10th. Good luck to all!
 
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  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
when i try to do this it just says "linking…" and never gives me any other feedback. is that what's supposed to happen or is it broken?
 
May as well be the first one

I think okidogi is banworthy.. if weavile is not ban worthy then this at least is. This mon is kinda a ridiculous progress maker ... not only is it amazing at trading with every mon in the tier but after a bu your options vs it are basically poison dirge, trade torn-t with it, or try to force tera...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-799524?p2 - this replay shows the power of BU dogi and its ability to trade very well.. despite there being a donphan in the back, donphan still often time loses thanks to toxic chain, drain punch recovery, and the defense boosts
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-798740?p2 - this replay shows how it bullies bulky pokemon who cannot do really much against it... sure thundy i could have had psychic but if tree called it out as many thundy to my knowledge dont have it still.. this would go from bad -> worse as now you are down 2 mons. And even late game it comes in and about to take a 3rd if not for a full para
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-796493 - tree here uses tera to their advantage to get 2 mons at the cost of a tera and forces a counter tera from don bork

compared to weavile whose usage was sky high, and dogi mainly being a common scarfer, its harder to find replays compared to weavile but i feel the times when BU dogi was being used it often did pretty well... and while there are other dogi games such as

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2221131014-0ztnfpto16igclwgtwm2gl2hvyossp6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2221127414-91a2xxa8z7vtuaw3giei2if5p7710m6pw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-797220
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-797224?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-796564
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-799221
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-799531
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-802063
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-802416?p2

The teams that bu dogi loses to is either havings mons like WW skarm, tera poison dirge, or relying on a good switch in to get going,... while tera poison dirge is viable for pecharunt idt its very viable outside stall if it was not for dogi, skarmory i find likes brave bird way to much to really go into WW esp with the amount of SD duck going around and also not being dead into boots torn t. I think compared to weavile, dogi at least has the tour results to show it just running over opponents

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2223004758-wkxsprytrqcjwa287b5dmf6x7wpedoepw?p2 - while the future ones are ladder replays from me, i wanted to showcase how hard it is for a team to answer dogi. Where i am able to find a turn and just click gunk, land it vs dirge and get the poison, and thanks to the para on torn t i was able to easily sweep the game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2222996844-5l5goduj0s49ot9lackma3oxccwkih6pw?p2 - if i clicked gunk shot instead of toying around on t8 or 9 i wouldve easily won the game thanks to having tera to counter my opponents drill

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2216895103-e2v7eoja3ccseji1szqcpbsebxuag0zpw?p2 and one more dogi vs stall game cuz taunt is amazing sometimes

I think dogi is just a headache to deal in the builder, u rely on dodging 30% chances, getting ur turns right more often than usual as dogi is stupid strong, it has tour results to back it up, and has had results for a long time to back it up, idt its gotta any worse post shifts as the addition of heatran adds smth that relys on luck to beat it, clodsire loses to BU, while skarm needs roar to actually win which gets farmed by taunt, and while tera poison dirge became 20x more common... do you really wanna justify using tera poison dirge outside of the dogi MU

_______________________
Dogi's checks are also... weird, you have mons that can off check it but either do not ko it and lose the 1v1 (torn-t, exca, zen headbutt ogerpon-c to a +1 dogi, etc) and are just mons you either consider not as good / sets like WW skarm (BB skarm is considered better, poison dirge, psychic thundy, chople heatran)

I think out of dogi, hoopa, and weavile i think its dogi > hoopa > weavile which is saying smth but yeah... hope this test is smooth sailing
 
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aloha, didn’t post on weavile thread due to miscellaneous things (mostly irl stuff). But I definitely wanna kick off the Okidogi discussion with my thoughts.

I will more than likely be voting ban on the dawg. I believe it to be more troublesome for the meta than Weavile is in fact, which I don’t think is a hot take really. Main reasoning being that this mon has relatively specific counterplay and has relatively uncompetitive sequences within the tier.

Hard defensive Okidogi answers are relatively non existent and even those can mostly be fucked over by poison chance. The more offensive ones like Latios or whatever else generally cannot switch in or even really think about switching in unless at 100% HP, without risking poison chance or crit just taking them out.

In SM UU common Scizor counterplay was slotting miscellaneous fire moves onto teams to limit it’s breathing room to click a move that isn’t unboosted BP. In SV we have Okidogi here that is 4x weak to Psychic and even less direct defensive counterplay than Scizor had in SM UU, while having altogether better bulk and a better speed tier. Any reliance whatsoever on Psychic coverage being a primary out vs. Okidogi is likely to be punished in this generation by tera, or even simply set variance. For example a sand team of some sort with Latios can theoretically keep BU Okidogi at bay with nothing but pressure and extremely soft defensive answers, however the same team will get absolutely waxed by a scarf dog clicking STABS and Knock Off.

This isn’t specifically new and is definitely something we’ve seen plenty of times before ofc. Not to mention its set variety isn’t really that insane whatsoever in comparison to other examples like Kommo-o.

But the fact that common Okidogi counterplay seen in SCL and the ladder alike is two of them sitting in front of each other as they both click Psychic Fangs on the speed tie or hoping/assuming they successfully crept the opp’s dogi spread, is an unfortunate and accurate representation of the meta in and out of the builder. I do not think Okidogi is super omega broken, but I do think it offers next to nothing specifically positive for the tier while consistently contributing to unfun and uncompetitive sequences in-game.

This combined with the general lack of consistent defensive and offensive counterplay (the latter mostly being due to threat of tera or scarf), I will for sure be voting ban unless something drastic happens on my reqs run that makes me feel otherwise.

I do think this tier is in a worse spot than it was directly prior to shifts, and the overlap of hoopa/weavile combined with what I’ve written above about Okidogi is my best bet as to what we can think about to make it better. I think the foundation of the tier isn’t a specifically unfun one and it is potentially as simple as a ban or two away combined with putting our heads together to push the meta forward to end up in a pretty positive situation (especially compared to misc uu past gens that aren’t great).

I will potentially post a team in the thread later on if it seems necessary/i feel strongly enough abt the team for it to be worthy of the community.
 
has anyone else tried guard dog bulk up? I'm a big fan of something like this:

Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Guard Dog
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 152 HP / 108 Atk / 132 SpD / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Psychic Fangs
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

guard dog turns the table on stuff like skarm trying to phase you out and also is nice for the occasional intimidate
 
Since the beggining of this gen, whenever im giddily terastalizing my pokémon to make
funny plays that are absolutely contrary to every law of this game and a new suspect pops up, I am giddy no more.

After what feels like 100+ bans across the tier board, and inexorably finding players mention Tera as an argument or support to an argument against whatever particular pokémon found itself at the pillory of balance, I am starting to think, that maybe, eventually, PERHAPS EVEN, we've made a mistake allowing Tera as a gimmick.

In what I can only call a fit of mass group hysteria, we've all agreed on Tera as a valid gameplay option but we were playing god then.

Repent.
 
this game and a new suspect pops up, I am giddy no more.

After what feels like 100+ bans across the tier board, and inexorably finding players mention Tera as an argument or support to an argument against whatever particular pokémon found itself at the pillory of balance, I am starting to think, that maybe, eventually, PERHAPS EVEN, we've made a mistake allowing Tera as a gimmick.

In what I can only call a fit of mass group hysteria, we've all agreed on Tera as a vali
Unfortunately we are probably stuck with it until after the gen ends, I think we will find out if we were better off without it going into the next gen
 
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(ik bot automatically did this but posting that anyway just to remind myself i did do it <.<)

got my reqs super early this time because i'm not a shitter apparantly. used a variant of HO team Monky25 passed me for weav test but with cresselia as my final mon instead of rev/salamence, its a bizarre choice according to a lot of people but i really liked it on paper as this like good dogi answer, considering a lot of things like gren/quav/heatran are gonna be giving it entries and you really both want a check to it and something that actually forces a healthy dogi out too, and a pretty nasty sweeper that kept putting in tons of work. helps that its a pretty decent way of checking shit like keld/quav too. tera flying scizor is probably a bizarre one on paper but i kept running into too many matchups where back exca was stopping sciz do anything, swapped it to tera flying and then never ran into the situation again LOL but i never really tera'd sciz anyway.

https://pokepast.es/8ee7d74f8194ebc1
:heatran: :scizor: :quaquaval: :polteageist: :greninja: :cresselia:

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On topic of Okidogi, I plan to make a more indepth post about how I feel about it tnmorrow since its pretty late but I'm definitely voting Ban on it. Others have said it all before but this mon is annoying enough with just Choice Scarf sets having like very little in the way of unpunishable switch-ins due to Toxic Chain making it an incredible clicker, but when you factor bulky sets into the mix too and their ability to trade with almost anything, and honestly heal up an infuriating amount too while doing it with no good switch ins too you end up with a mon thats risk vs reward ratio is completely skew-wiff since even bad clicks have a 30% chance to still be perfectly good, nothing worse than predicting a drain / psyfangs correctly and getting eg. ur torn-t poisoned anyway.

While I do think its a valuable breaker and scarfer in a way, I do 100% believe its just got too much of an unpunishable nature and too much trickery between its sets that makes this even harder to deal with and it'd definitely open up teambuilding a lot more to not be so terrified of it constantly, while idt we're remotely lacking for alternatives that can cover what it brings.
 
Since the beggining of this gen, whenever im giddily terastalizing my pokémon to make
funny plays that are absolutely contrary to every law of this game and a new suspect pops up, I am giddy no more.

After what feels like 100+ bans across the tier board, and inexorably finding players mention Tera as an argument or support to an argument against whatever particular pokémon found itself at the pillory of balance, I am starting to think, that maybe, eventually, PERHAPS EVEN, we've made a mistake allowing Tera as a gimmick.

In what I can only call a fit of mass group hysteria, we've all agreed on Tera as a valid gameplay option but we were playing god then.

Repent.
don't think of suspects as "tera is the problem and therefore this mon shouldn't be banned". if a mon is broken in a tera meta, it should be banned, whether you want tera gone or not. think about it: if a tera suspect is ever held, would you rather ladder for it in a meta with multiple brokens running around, or a meta without them?
I disagree with this mindset. These tests are just going to keep happening until we deal with the actual problem
tera hasn't had close to the support for even a suspect, let alone a ban, for ages. it's a safe bet to say it's sticking around. tera blast maybe, but the mechanic itself is staying and there's really no use in continuing to call for a test (especially during the testing of something else, which we should be talking about instead). honestly, take it as a gift—the more the testing continues, the more likely you are to get a tc badge before the end of the gen
 
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tera hasn't had close to the support for even a suspect, let alone a ban, for ages. it's a safe bet to say it's sticking around. tera blast maybe, but the mechanic itself is staying and there's really no use in continuing to call for a test (especially during the testing of something else, which we should be talking about instead). honestly, take it as a gift—the more the testing continues, the more likely you are to get a tc badge before the end of the gen
I know its not going away, that doesn't mean its not unhealthy/uncompetitive
 
I know its not going away, that doesn't mean its not unhealthy/uncompetitive
Tera is not broken, it breaks. The mechanic in and of itself adds a new layer to battling, but that layer also has sent a lot of stuff offer the edge. Banning Tera Blast will mitigate this, but that’s not happening until next year.
 
Tera is not broken, it breaks. The mechanic in and of itself adds a new layer to battling, but that layer also has sent a lot of stuff offer the edge. Banning Tera Blast will mitigate this, but that’s not happening until next year.
yeah, it breaks quite literally any pokemon with decent stats and a setup move
 
Can we please stop talking about tera. Its fine to think its broken or not, but this isn't what the suspect is about, its about okidogi and whether it should be banned or not. There is still the metagame discussion thread for you to talk about tera in UU.

I'll add my own thoughts on okidogi rn, though they will be quick. From the people I've talked to, it seems okidogi is broken, and to that end, I'll agree with them. Not many things can switch into its stab combo while not also being threatened by coverage/crippled by poison. The best is maybe toxapex, but that can't do much in return to okidogi, so yeah. UU doesn't have walls that okidogi had in RU (mainly slowbro and hippowdon), so its a lot harder to wall. If I get reqs (maybe I will, but idk if I will be bothered to in a tier which I admittingly don't play a whole lot), I will be voting BAN.
 
Can we please stop talking about tera. Its fine to think its broken or not, but this isn't what the suspect is about, its about okidogi and whether it should be banned or not. There is still the metagame discussion thread for you to talk about tera in UU.
Tera is a big part of its potential brokenness, not talking about it would be ignoring a major part of the mons role in UU
 
Tera is a big part of its potential brokenness, not talking about it would be ignoring a major part of the mons role in UU
That's fine, but say WHY it breaks okidogi specifically if you believe tera helps break it. Is it "okidogi gets free turns to set up on x check" or "y revenge killer can't revenge kill it reliably, meaning it can snowball too easily". Using generalised statements like "tera breaks quite literally any setup sweeper with decent stats" is not really contributing at all to the thread, and just clutters up the thread.
 
shoutouts vivalospride for keeping my sanity intact for reqs. skeledirge is the goat. If you're struggling with reqs I recommend him.

laddered with a barely BO team (for context)

unfortunately i think i will have to bend the knee to Big Regenerator and vote ban on dogi. and personally I don't think it's the bulk up sets that feel most problematic. I think the av and the scarf sets and other random items that end up putting a lot of work early game feel most problematic to me. when the knocks + poisons get spread early it's hard to come back from those games, unlike bulk up which is 'typically' reserved for mid-late game set up and sweeps, and gives you a little more freedom to handle it, or force progress with your own game plan esp since the teras for it are usually fairly routine. But even those can be overbearing as without a dedicated counter pick like np pech or covert cloak ID sinis, you will still struggle with tera in tact.

For all the defensive prep you can do, it generally doesn't feel like enough cuz they get chipped and poisoned throughout the game making your team in a match up against dogi, feel sort of papery. That is unless you resort to some niche bad mons (gligar). and it has the staying power to trade with 1-2 mons against offence as well. As a result you're often stacking multiple soft checks (not necessarily going out of your way to do so) that are going to have a hard time checking it throughout the course of the game, or cannot favourably trade / flat out risk dying if tera is intact. There were multiple games while getting reqs where I ended up just throwing multiple mons at dogi to chip it down, obviously drain punch making that harder.

I think an outcome of banning dogi is going to be a lot more breathing room both in the builder for all playstyles and a lot more breathing room in practice. probably a net positive if he goes.

:eeveehide:
 
Struggling with reqs?

Get yourself 30 games max reqs by following those two steps:

1) load this https://pokepast.es/243744e4b3723cda until you start facing opponents that somewhat know what they're doing and/or start facing bu dogis

2) finish your remaining games with this team amukamara used in scl that i ended up adapting for my liking https://pokepast.es/5a92c78bff0c4013

Now that you got yourself reqs both facing and using okidogi you should have gathered enough knowledge to do the right decision.

(This post is sponsored by Big Stall Corp)
 
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Struggling with reqs?

Get yourself 30 games max reqs by following those two steps:

1) load this https://pokepast.es/243744e4b3723cda until you start facing opponents that somewhat know what they're doing and/or start facing bu dogis

2) finish your remaining games with this team amukamara used in scl that i ended up adapting for my liking https://pokepast.es/5a92c78bff0c4013

Now that you got yourself reqs both facing and using okidogi you should have gathered enough knowledge to do the right decision.

(This post is sponsored by Big Stall Corp)
i ran into bu dogi on game 2, this strat doesn't work now that low ladder uses him too
 
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