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SV UU Suspect Process Round 11 - Poison [NEW SUSPECT PROCESS]

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Tree69420 said:
tera poison dirge wins if you get the tera off before they get to tera or if you skillfully dodge all toxic chain procs
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i mean yeah you don't lose the matchup if you play right but if the plan is "run this team until you start seeing bu dogi" and you run into him after a single game it's not much of a plan at all is it
 
I initially did feel that it was alright[sorry] but after a few toxic chain procs , I'm convinved, this dog is broken

Joking aside, I think Dogi is fine without chain and it does provide some interesting value to the tier without being able to completely warp the tier if not for toxic chain, the ability gives it a lot of ease in terms of crippling possible soft checks, and this is more apparent in long games where you can have a plan to slowly take it out but your plan gets foiled midway due to toxic chain .

Ofc it's not the ability alone, this mon is able to click many save moves which demand specific responses and prediction, and an ability to punish even a good prediction with a free status is too unhealthy and imo banworthy
 
If I had a nickel for every time that some ugly ass Legendary Fighting type dog with stupid amounts of both bulk and attack AND obscenely abusable boosting moves was an issue in a Gen 9 tier, I would have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it’s happened twice.
 
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Quick post tu summarize my thoughts on Okidogi since I got reqs yesterday.

This Pokémon is a pain in the ass to check due to Toxic Chain allowing it to punish most of its checks in the long run. It lacks durable and good answers and you most of the time have to burn Tera to check it. Unlike Weavile (which is also disgusting), Okidogi is beefy af making it nearly impossible to OHKO without Psychic-type moves or super effective moves from strong hitters. Choice Scarf variants are incredible to provide some speed control to a team while providing a decent check to many Pokémon due to its bulk while Bulk Up variants can just win games on their own thanks to its bulk and many variants of Tera. Toxic Chain is the cherry on top and what pushes this Pokémon over the edge imo because it allows it (as I said above) to punish some of its checks such as Slowking, Tornadus-T or Sinistcha and Skeledirge (if you haven't used Tera Poison yet for those latter). In the long run, Okidogi is able to chip the opponent's teams which opens doors for the dozens of other threats the tier has right now. It puts some nasty pressure on some more bulky and defensives cores/teams and is imo one of the reason those are not as great atm. Overall, I dislike the current state of UU, we have way too many offensive threats and it's nearly impossible to check them defensively, they just break defensive backbones for each others. I want things to change and that's why I voted ban on Weavile (and will do once more if we had to) and this is also why I will vote ban on Okidogi. Underused need some air to breathe and I hope the ban of Okidogi will lead to a (toxic) chain reaction that will lead to more bans.
 
I do not know if I will have time to get reqs as despite the easier requirements of UU I just have a lot of stuff going on rn but I am firmly in the Ban camp. Okidogi’s stats have no inarguable flaws and can beat just about anything that’s unboosted. While it doesn’t enjoy switching in on strong attacks, its sheer bulk allows it to usually recover all the damage it took with Drain Punch, while Choice Scarf variants can heal up right away. Its coverage is not only strong, but has great utility as well, Psychic types can easily be threatened out with Knock Off in addition to also just being able to reliably remove items thanks to its bulk. Every type of team structure has the capacity to abuse this thing, and every team structure simultaneously has a lot of pressure to be prepared for it. Your best bet to beat it is to have already set up your sweeper and hope that it doesn’t Tera or otherwise survive the attack to heal up with Drain Punch.

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 329-391 (92.6 - 110.1%) -- approx. 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 329-391 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OKO

All of this is without mentioning Tera and the fact that it comes prepackaged with Poison Touch on steroids, giving it a chance to muscle past something that it might not have been able to otherwise. There are no reliable answers to Okidogi, defensively or offensively, as it can very easily wear you down through the course of a game due to its combination of reliable recovery, obscene bulk and attack, and very reliable capacity to remove items, all of which in tandem give it many chances to cheese you with Toxic Chain.
Moutemoute said:
I hope the ban of Okidogi will lead to a (toxic) chain reaction that will lead to more bans.
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I mostly agree with the points that you make but this last line is just utter sheep mentality, the tier is mostly fine except for the dog (it’s nearly guaranteed to be banned) and I guess Poopa-Unbound.
 
Got reqs and i have got to say this is the most HO filled ladder i think ive ever played. If u want free reqs Lum DD Mence + SD Quaq is giga broken on ladder bc nobody is prepped for either. Also new reqs system lets u just spam 10000 games on any alt and auto qualify
 
Reqs were kinda a bitch there’re some shenanigans on this ladder i CANNOT LIE

I will post what i got reqs with even tho I wouldn’t recommend using from 1000-fin. I think this team is mediocre to get through the low ladder but is serviceable if necessary. Better to go with a full HO route probably instead of this, and then switch to this at around 1350 or whatever probably, or even if just for your last 5-10 games.

:cobalion: :skeledirge: :thundurus-therian: :weavile: :salamence: :scizor: (click me)

HOs with random Skeledirge placed onto it is one of my favorite archetypes this gen ever since wc-ish when I had the azu crown dirge mew rockpon gren team that popped off.

Cynde and I were talking about it together and kinda came to a six that we both ended up not liking for miscellaneous reasons, and editing ourselves into our own respective versions. This was mine, it’s basically a HO larping as a BO, with multiple lead options that pretty much account for every possibility. Pretty much worst possible outcome is lead Heatran in which I’ve found it best to just lead thund and click tbolt into it. Trading breaking tran’s balloon for a mon is also not bad bc it means mence can use it as fodder and likely win the game bc that guy is broken. Biggest challenge otherwise is water resist being mono mence, but all outplayable since teraing dirge is usually pretty high floor, can adjust other tera’s w this in mind to your comfort as well.

TLDR; here is team if you are struggling in the later stages of reqs. Team summary is: Lead coba or weav usually. Be annoying (click w weav until it dies or click rocks + twave + taunt w coba or whatever) w the intent for smth else (probably mence) to win. Dirge is bullshit repellent espec w tera water into this quack filled ladder, also great late wincon. Fast scizor is very good and being hard stomped by dirge is OK bc it’s just here to punish it teraing. Also I ripped thund set off pdt a while back and it stomps regen heavy builds that rely on hoopa to rkill.

Cynde used his version for reqs as well but it’s pretty different from mine and he can post or share however he pleases.

Reiterating I’ll be voting ban for sure on the dawg.
 
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Got reqs, grinding my way to 143 games(!) and #14 on the ladder in the process. After trying many different teams along the way and giving up on HO once the ladder became clogged with Clodsire, shout-out to HydreigonTheChild for submitting a truly excellent team in the sample team submissions thread. Skarmory was absolutely incredible, blanket checking so many of the problem Pokemon and eating the dedicated anti-HO teams alive.

I went into this test not especially impressed with Okidogi, but right away I found the Bulk Up set to be obnoxious; it is extremely difficult to actually kill or even really cripple when it gets a a Bulk Up in so easily and can afford to spam Drain Punch or Gunk Shot against even resists because Poison Touch is so good at making progress. The best Dogi answer was often speed creeping and Tera with your own Dogi, and that's a bit absurd. In particular, Dogi made defensive play a great deal harder since not many slower Pokemon handle it well. I am likely to vote ban.

The metagame was (mostly) fun, but I am a little concerned about the glut of very challenging offensive threats. Greninja and Polteageist in particular really push on team building. Weavile, interestingly enough, was very fun to use but not especially difficult to find counterplay for.
 
haven't got my reqs yet but my latest run is looking very promising and i've been playing for long enough that i think i've gained a good enough feel of uu at large to have an informed opinion on okidogi. my stance is:

FUCK THIS GUY.

okidogi is canonically a bully and a murderer according to teal mask lore, but that's forgivable. what isn't forgivable are the stupid ass toxic chain procs that let swole doge muscle past virtually all of his checks. don't get me wrong, though, toxic chain is the dealbreaker here—it's uncompetitive bullshit, yeah, but it's just the tip of the shitberg as far as okidogi is concerned. scarf dogi is scary good and has a nice offensive and defensive matchup spread that might, in some alternate universe, even be healthy. unfortunately for that set, here in smogon underused civilization, no one chooses to run scarf okidogi. it's better to be safe and run the bulk up set rather than risk your entire win for just another revenge killer. and good lord does that bulk up set win. the bastard has about four reliable switch-ins after getting a bulk up… well, up… and they're entirely dependent on him either not having psychic fangs (all of them do) or having psychic fangs but not getting the toxic chain proc. this would be almost-sorta-ok if he were revengeable, but he's too swole to kill, especially considering that his main fighting stab slurps up your hp bar like a big ol' milkshake from bulky-offense-fil-a. your best answer to okidogi is to bring your own okidogi and tera at the right time. aside from that, the main options are, i don't even know, torn-t and prayer? dirge maybe? phazing skarm until someone invents a guard dog set? pecharunt into losing the 1v1 anyway somehow? the op says things are running psychic coverage for dogi but i haven't been seeing most of the stuff mentioned, nor have i found any space to slot in a psychic move on said mons without gimping them against a whole host of other things i really need them to be good against. all in all, okidogi is a very obnoxious mon to both play against and cover in builder and i will be voting ban on him when i complete my reqs run
 
I feel like others have already gone over bu dogi and how much rng it causes so i'm going to talk about the scarf set. I used the second team posted by askov (which i highly recommend) for the majority of the run i got reqs with, and feel that even scarf dogi alone has a negative effect on the tier. It hits harder than hoopa-u on the physical side, except unlike hoopa-u (which i also feel is broken) it has actual defensive utility even when uninvested, as well as a rock resistance. The only pokemon i've seen brought up that can actually switch into scarf dogi safely are gligar, (we would be using skarm for a spiking flyer in a meta without broken dogi) and pecharunt, which is 3hkod by psyfangs without physical investment. As a result, it's often able to make progress simply by clicking mostly cc and teraing when required; most mons that switch into cc such as sinistcha fear getting hit by gunk+poison
 
Got Reqs with this crack team (palossand sucks ass but it lets me cope vs dogi, klefki is epic tho)
:Weavile: :Klefki: :Tornadus-Therian: :Rotom-Wash: :Palossand: :Okidogi:

Reviving this thread just for fun to say that I will also be voting to BAN Okidogi for pretty much what was already stated many times, the only somewhat reliable counterplay to it is just itself. The major issue with a lot of other counterplay is that they either
A) Are ruined by Toxic Chain
B) Don't answer one of Dogi's sets
C) Just aren't very good as a mon and pretty much exists purely for dogi
Below is a list of "checks" and why they arent very good at answering dogi.

:Gligar:
Gligar (whose tournament relevance probably shouldve been a dead giveaway that something was wrong w dogi) is an alright answer to Okidogi's Scarf set, sponging at the hits and being poison immune, but it cannot answer bulk up very well at all because dogi just beefs up until Eq does nothing and then destroys Gligar. Also, its not really useful for answering anything else outside of being an ok coba wall.

:Slowking:
Can pivot around scarf decently and isnt immediately threatened by bulk up, but toxic chain makes it incredibly rough for it to last as it gets pummeled over and over. Especially since its usually tasked with taking hits from more than just Dogi.

:Pecharunt:
The Parting Shot is far too passive to take dogi on on its own and despises getting knocked by Scarf Dogi, while plot is shaky at switching in as it also hates taking knock from Scarf and cant very well take on a Dogi that had grabbed a bulk up as it came in.

Encore: :Tinkaton: :Ogerpon:
Encore, in theory, is a good punish for bulk up shenanigans. Unfortunately, our only encore users are bad into Okidogi, with tinkaton needing both dodge speed creeping from dogi while also getting in on it safely, and Ogerpon just not switching in at all.

Other Poisons: :Toxapex: :Clodsire:
Passive as hell and dont take psychic fangs well at all. Can pivot into scarf decently but just lose to bulk up.

Offensively Threatening Dogi: :Tornadus-Therian: :Latios: :Excadrill: :Sandy Shocks:
Latios is the only thing on this list that actually threatens Okidogi with an OHKO and its facing issues in the current meta with how many fast darks there are. Also, Okidogi can very easily just tera to flip the matchup in its favor if it desires.

:Skeledirge: (Tera Poison)
This is probably the best dogi check that isnt just another dogi but something to keep in mind is that you have to dedicate tera to actually have it answer Dogi. Not to mention the fact that it has to use a tera that, in my opinion, is a good bit worse than its other options in Tera Water and Tera Fairy. Even on stall teams that need it to check Plot Pecharunt I think Steel would probably be better to also be able to check Dragons while gaining a rock resistance in the event its team cant keep rocks off.

There are probably a few other examples I could go over but I feel like I've gotten the point across that none of Dogi's other counterplay is safe into it. This pretty much means that you can either load up on multiple dogi checks and just hope it works while accepting rough matchups elsewhere, play dogi wars and just hope you win out, or load HO and try not to worry about it. This, to me, bears (hehehe) a resemblance to the effect Ursaluna had on the builder, where you either tried to counter it, played into it, or loaded HO to not worry about it much. Seeing how Ursaluna was banned for this effect, I'd hope others vote to ban Okidogi for it too.
 
 
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