Gen 6 Swagger Clause?

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Fixed's team has by itself made the ladder un-enjoyable for me, laddering 'semi seriously' for the first time in well over a year and I faced a fair few teams abusing swagplay, to put it short I got pretty high on the ladder and kept facing the same type of teams.. I'm not going to go into detail about this as I know you are all sensible enough to know the difference between 'fair' and 'unfair' but all in all swagplay prio really doesn't give any type of benefit to any situation at all as you're constantly playing with odds, I know people have mentioned its a 'counter play style vs ho' which don't get me wrong it is but if theres a way people can abuse things to there it gives them more of an even playing field people will. In all honesty its more of a 'respect for other players' thing to not use swagplay.

Just like everyone else I'm salty as fuck about losing to it (oh no my ladder points) and I'm not ashamed to admit it.. But its really not needed here theres nothing positive about it expect a cheap and annoying playstyle which is frond upon and people will keep hating on it untill its gone, and to anyone who actually abuses it you're not special or a troll you're just exploiting a weakpoint in the game which needs to be banned.
 
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Ok normally when it comes to topics like this, I'd write a gigantic wall of text that would make everyone go bug eyed. NOT THIS TIME THOUGH, I'm just going to ramble a bit instead!

I am actually very apathetic about Swagger. Like the rest of the Uber Mods, I am very very anti ban in almost every case, but Swagger is an unusual case. Swagger is very much a luck based strategy. In some ways, it reminds me of Moody, in that it wasn't the most consistent of strategies, but its a strategy that is INFURIATING to play against for most people. And that is totally understandable, with how much of a factor luck is to the strategy! Pair the luck factor with the fact that Swagger is not a Pokémon, Forme, or Mega Evolution, and Swagger becomes one of the VERY few things I am okay with being banned from Ubers.

That being said, that doesn't really mean that I'm going to care too much if Swagger stays too. This is probably going to sound dumb, but I just can't get excited about taking something away from the game, no matter how dumb it is. I joined Ubers and stuck with it precisely because it was almost like the opposite of the usual Smogon metagame: Ubers is the metagame that has tons of VERY scary and powerful Pokémon, and instead of being like "omg op plz suspect and ban", Ubers is like "well I guess you're going to have a hell of a time, aren't ya!" Ubers to me, is pretty much the purest a Smogon metagame can get without going full blown crazy with streetmons and glitchmons, and its a major part of the reason I love pretty much every Ubers metagame in some form or fashion!

That being said, as much as I tend to be very against bans, Swagger just reminds me so much of OHKO and Moody in ways with the "luck factor" (though not exactly the same, not going to make a giant post about the differences now though), that while I will never get "excited" for a ban, I also feel that banning Swagger is a small enough compromise that makes enough people happy that I won't actually feel like we're destroying the "foundations of Ubers" so to speak, and it's not like getting rid of Swagger is a step towards actually going out of our way to actively balance Ubers.

So TL;DR from my rambling post: I hate the idea of balancing Ubers, and am usually very antiban, but due to Swagger's luck factors and some surface similarities to OHKO and Moody, I don't really care about what happens with Swagger, and don't think banning it makes Ubers lose its "core identity" to me!
 
I'd say that the issue is more with the people using this than the actual move itself. No player with a Swagger team loaded in clicks that "Find Battle" button on PS with the mindset "I've made a team, I want to see how it does, if I've missed anything, what needs changing" or "I want to play enjoyable matches where, win or lose, I will hopefully learn and get better with every match". The issue is that these people click that button with the mindset "let's dick around, if this works i'll probably be on the receiving end of some heavy abuse, how fun, let's PURPOSEFULLY IRRITATE OTHER PLAYERS BECAUSE I GET OFF ON THAT, AND WATCHING PEOPLE GET FRUSTRATED, ANGRY AND FORFEIT AMUSES ME". I'll be the first to admit that i've lost to this before, and i've told the other player to do things to himself which i would never say, and only said cause I was driven up the wall. The premise of this entire community is that we get together, play each other competitively and in good sportsmanship, and win or lose (we all whine and bitch about hax, and insult each other, but everybody knows that noone is being serious), we have a good time. That's what I love about the Ubers tier in particular, I feel that we have so much more fun than all the other boringass tiers ;), but Swagger causes huge problems.

Ban it, this causes toxic issues in the community and tempers have flared more than once.

Ban Swagger

(inb4 everyone in this thread gets infracted for mentioning bans in Ubers ;))
 
Since a few people have asked, I'll make a decisions once I've had time to sit down and read all of the comments. I have exams until the 17th, so probably around the 18th/19th.
 
I'm all for getting rid of Swagger from the Ubers metagame, although I do have reservations on adding another clause. If you look at the tier rules here you see that OU and below don't have a 'Swagger Clause' but rather have the move simply listed as banned. I think Ubers should do the same rather than add a 'Swagger Clause' as the title of this topic would suggest. Or put Swagger in the same category as Moody and call it a Luck Clause or something, as these two facets of Pokemon are much better at forcing luck than anything else in the game. I share the same sentiments as shrang that adding another clause just to ban the move Swagger would detract from what the Ubers metagame is meant to be. It may seem like I'm arguing semantics but really it's the difference between saying "Swagger is banned" versus "Swagger is banned per the Swagger Clause and Moody is banned per the Moody Clause" versus "Swagger and Moody are banned per the Luck Clause." Even if having two different clauses would have the same effect on the metagame as having one clause, wouldn't you rather have the latter just to say that Ubers has as little clauses/restrictions as possible? Just my 2¢
 
I don't like the name of the Luck Clause because it implies that with the clause enacted Pokemon is now free of luck when it's something that is impossible to get rid of. The ironic thing is that even if all teams were 6v6 Mega Gyarados with nothing but Dragon Rage matches would still be decided by a series of coin flips.
 
The argument that ubers is a place for everything overpowered just makes me feel that ubers is not taken seriously or with love. I mean, why are we just letting broken and unhealthy things here? Some people of community wanna play this competitively and in a healthy environment, not in one where shit like this (and others like evasion, but ignore this) are just allowed because "HEY THIS IS UBAAHzz, FUCK THE PLAYSKILL, STROMGEST MONS". Everything can be countered or checked, see hackmons, but theres differences that we should consider.

Tl;dr: ubers needs more love as a real tier, not a stupid banlist.
 
DontStealMyPenguin said:
this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-125555693 'nuff said. If any of you think it shouldn't be banned, then well, watch that replay.
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Not to nitpick, but any ubers replay including the Chansey is automatically void in my book. If someone has yet to catch up with the fact she's no longer viable, as this replay clearly shows, they have bigger issues than Swagger.
Being able to reach the top with Chansey speaks volumes of the current quality of the ubers ladder.
 
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Minority Suspect said:
I don't like the name of the Luck Clause because it implies that with the clause enacted Pokemon is now free of luck when it's something that is impossible to get rid of. The ironic thing is that even if all teams were 6v6 Mega Gyarados with nothing but Dragon Rage matches would still be decided by a series of coin flips.
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I don't really care what it's called, I just think Swagger should be banned without creating another clause.
 
Now is the time to end Swagger.

Swagger has no reasonable use since the game was obviously a competition. If others treat this as for fun, well the user’s opponent is not actually having fun of hurting itself while the user is getting amused watching him frustrate and irritated. Anticipate then the insults, rage and hostility.

If others are using it to compete, its basically not competitive since everything will be based only on luck like everyone said so. Swagger has been banned in OU, then our Ubers community obviously want it banned too. We got sleep clause, species clause, moody clause and etc.,why not add swagger clause?

Ubers is the place for the most powerful pokemons to compete while Swagger does not require skill to be applied.

Based on ladder experience, you will never help yourself not to be frustrate, annoyed and breakdown when the swagger user uses it for its entire prankster team! >.<

Enforce swagger clause and the Ubers community will have peace. Thank you.
 
I agree with most of what's been said, and feel Fireburn's and Problem's post best sum up the issues with swagger and my viewpoint on the situation. They also don't give me the urge unlike most posts in this thread to complain about how it's a metagame we use in a huge amount of official tournaments, yet refuse to attempt to bring close to a balance. (I'm leaving that to another place, another time)
 
I find it funny that this community cries and bans something just cause they dont like battling it. Its part of the game, dont blame a move for your loss blame your skills not being up to par and not running a few checks. You say swagger is uncompetitive, and based on luck? Yet regard the randomness and luck based game of pokemon argument irrelevant. If thats the case then ban para flinch shenanigans, lame stall teams and boosting. This is a mean game with lame messed up tactics. Just cause one comes around thats messed up that you guys dont like, you start to whine and cry because its actually hard to beat and you cant land your random crits or boost your way to victory. The main reason I play ubers is cause I like playing against the best tier pokemon and the best tier sets. Strats thats so broken that its the best of the best. Swagplay is one of the best strats in the game of pokemon right now. I enjoy fighting it even if I dont have a swagplay team. Because its good and playing good stuff is how I enjoy playing games.
 
So I'm going 180 on my opinion on this matter after encountering two things for the first time. I've faced SwagPlay two dozen or so times on several accounts. All low to mid ladder teams, however I have never face a user/abuser who was any good at all. I however encountered two today.
After dicking around with a BP team on the ladder I decided to use a normal team and ladder. I faced five teams built around swagger, and swagger xern which was really annoying, I won 3/5 matches. But the three I won where all really bad players who got there based on luck. So I actually now understand the frustration that people can feel when such bad players can just win on BS luck alone. Also unrelated but they were all horrible people, they started off as assholes and they ragequit as assholes. They were degrading and rude and had no ability to accept that they lost. I was already used to that after the rest of the day.
The two matches I lost where weird. I never felt outplayed or outmatched like I usually do when I lose. I felt the game was winnable the entire time. And this feeling made the frustration worse. I think I was better than the players I lost to and more interestingly one lost to SwagPlay caused a seven game tilt.
I honestly think it effect peoples mentalities when they play against and it has unintended side effects on the other player. So I will now say Ban Swagger.
 
I do believe Swagger should be banned. But if not, we could limit it from possible combinations, such as

Swagger + Prankster
Swagger + Thunder Wave
Swagger + Foul Play
 
Minority Suspect said:
The best strat in poker is to be dealt the best five card combination every hand.

The best strat in Monopoly is to be the first to get a monopoly.

The best strat in life is to win all your money via the lottery.
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Nah the best strat in poker is to read your opponent, and the best strat in life is to be happy. You got monopoly right though :) . But its kinda bad that you used poker to make a point cause its prolly the most skill based card game out there that has pros and million dollar tournaments.... anyways what point are you trying to make here?
 
MegaMetazero said:
Nah the best strat in poker is to read your opponent
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You don't need to read your opponent if your cards are always unbeatable, just as you don't need to read your opponent if they always hit themselves in confusion.

Claiming that swaggplay is "one of the best strats" is exactly the same as claiming that it's easy to win million-dollar poker tournaments by having the strat of getting dealt an unbeatable hand every round, or winning a Monopoly tournament by using the strat of being the first to get a monopoly, or using the strat of winning the lottery to get income rather than going to college or learning a skill.

Strategy implies the manipulation of things within your control, so all of these "strats" are actually just oxymorons. That is the comparison being made. I can't believe I have to spell out such basic metaphors when it is very clear what is being compared.
 
Swagplay isnt a royal flush, nor does it ensure a win everytime just because your using it. Your examples are just not plausible cause you make it sound like swagplay is like a free win everytime. Like it works every time. I even tested it to see if its as bad as I thought it was. Trust me if it was like that I would be with everyone crying ban just like everyone else. Its a high risk high strat. The problem here is everyone here is always assuming worst case scenario when going against this team when there are solid checks to it and forget that this strat can backfire and blow up in the other players face. What about the times when swagplay beats itself? I know losing to it sucks, but dont ban something because its annoying and random. This game is meant to be random. Its what makes it great, crits are in the game, paralyze is here, why not ban those too? I'm a purist when it comes to the games I play. If something is busted I find ways around it.
 
MegaMetazero said:
I find it funny that this community cries and bans something just cause they dont like battling it. Its part of the game, dont blame a move for your loss blame your skills not being up to par and not running a few checks. You say swagger is uncompetitive, and based on luck? Yet regard the randomness and luck based game of pokemon argument irrelevant. If thats the case then ban para flinch shenanigans, lame stall teams and boosting. This is a mean game with lame messed up tactics. Just cause one comes around thats messed up that you guys dont like, you start to whine and cry because its actually hard to beat and you cant land your random crits or boost your way to victory. The main reason I play ubers is cause I like playing against the best tier pokemon and the best tier sets. Strats thats so broken that its the best of the best. Swagplay is one of the best strats in the game of pokemon right now. I enjoy fighting it even if I dont have a swagplay team. Because its good and playing good stuff is how I enjoy playing games.
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I'd like to direct you to the posts by fireburn, problems, and malefic (particularly the one by malefic with %s). At no point is swagger competitive. It may not get banned, but it sure as hell isn't competitive.
 
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