SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Anty]

crits are competitive we dont disable. Why? Because its an inescapible part of the game. Swagplay is something that you need to account for in team building much like aeigislash or any other threat. Any decent team builder accounts for this. Dont ban this simply because you were annoyed by it. Face it this whole game involves luck.

Not really, aegislash is a viable threat which take lots of skill to use, swagger is stupid and luck based. Most teams wont have a swag check, who are you going to use, lickylicky?(own tempo)

Examples of situations akin to a coin flip scenario:
Using Stone Edge.
Using Hydro Pump.
Using Thunder when it's not raining.
Switching out.
Using Hypnosis
Using Paraflinch
Using Swagger on a physical attacker
Using Twave on something that can OHKO you
Setting up hazards when the opponent has a magic bouncer
Setting up hazards/using status moves when the opponent has someone who can use Magic Coat

To name a few. These things are all based on luck, as is being confused.

Stone edge is 80, not 50. Hydro pump is 85. Noone uses hypnosys. Switching out can take skill, eg double switching. Paraflinch is rare, and again, takes no skill. 'when the opponent has someone who can use Magic Coat' That is a very comon move, magnezone gets it, so does jellicent. It is only viable on deo-d/deo-s

 

[Cheir]

Ban Confusion?
Yes, while we're at it, let's get rid of secondary effects, ban Cute Charm, kill crits, and make the RNG consistently roll 0 to ensure moves never miss. /sarcasm


The Pokémon that use it in question are annoying; that's what they do.
But one thing in common with all of them (Bar the Genies) is that they all pretty much suck stat-wise, so, taking care of it should not be a massive issue.

It doesn't even have to be an offensive solution, you have Magic Coat/Magic Bounce, Own Tempo to get them out, Taunt on a faster Prankster user, Torment to stop them going Foul Play mode, Lum Berry, and more. I understand that you wouldn't want to change your team around, but isn't the whole point of teambuilding to adapt to an occasionally changing metagame? If the popularity of this tactic annoys you, then respond to it!

On top of that, it wears off after a few turns. If you're still in, you can dent them quite a bit on the turn that you lose the confusion ailment.


Don't get me wrong, I do agree with it being noncompetitive and an underhanded tactic, but it's no different to those who constantly use Roar/Whirlwind on hazards, or ParaFlinch abusers. Regardless of how you complain, it will always be a viable tactic, as it does its job.

However, getting rid of it just because you can't deal with it is even more noncompetitive. That being said, those who use 6 mons with identical movesets + Prankster do need to be nipped in the bud.

tl;dr
My opinion? Don't ban Prankster + Swagger at its core, instead, a more complex ban that prohibits 2 or more mons from having Prankster + Swagger/etc on the same team would be more suitable. That way, those that do use the tactic to aid in teambuilding won't be affected, and this only hits those that aim to troll.

Who cares if it's luck based? For as long as the RNG exists, the game will -always- be skewed by luck.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Great God! Why are people still saying you can beat this with skill? There's a single Pokemon that can beat sash klefki 100% of the time, and while thundorus is nice, EVERY other Pokemon can be beaten by a lucky confusion streak, most of the time,

 

[sidakarya]

Confusion aside, how is swagplay luck? It's a valid strategy.

Because of confusion. :^)

Seriously though, it's being put in an instant 50/50 scenario, in which you hit yourself for probably 20%+ of your health, that is so frustrating. That is not skillful strategy, that is a coinflip. What's worse is that, like Double Team, every fully evolved mon save for Ditto, Unown and Wobbuffet can learn it - so what's to stop you from creating an instant 50/50 machine, to which you have absolutely no answer outside faster prankster Taunt? I cannot be expected to run Thundurus on every single team, even if it's S-rank. At least paraflinchers have not the luxury of wide distribution - there are what, two viable ones?

Full paralysis is not nearly as bad, because you're immobilised only 25% of the time. The speed drop from paralysis is far worse. Sleep mechanics have reverted to Gen 4, so yes, with enough turns switching, it will wake up. Those are different.

 

[Pan.]

So the opponent can Swagger the switch-in AND get behind a Substitute before you can start attacking it?

ok, tell me one dangerous attacker that is working with Swagger, Substitute, stat-boosting attack and attack-move?

correct, nothing competitive and intelligent on earth would / can do that. Every Pokémon has more and better options than wasting two slots for Swagger & Substitute. Otherwise just juse Roar / Whirlwind / Perish Song and you're fine. Plus it has only 24 PP, come on guys, stahp this.

Didn't Smogon want to stop complex bans after the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban?

 

[Plat]

Makes it clear to me that this poster has no idea what the fuck they're talking about. He's implying that in order to beat Swagger teams you have to waste your time draining the PP out of not 1, not 2, but 6 Pokemon. What kind of horseshit is that? How is this competitive at all? How can you even begin to explain to me how this is healthy? This isn't fun or enjoyable, it's just a pointless stalling match. It's not healthy at all, and if you're using Klefki on a SwagPlay team, you're probably gonna use Spikes and probably something with Stealth Rock to limit switching, which makes is impossible to PP stall without dying to entry hazards first. Pretty much all of the good defoggers and spinners are completely obliterated by Foul Play at +2. Anyways, that's enough about this post. It's probably a troll anyway.

Just to say Mandibuzz is a defogger that absolutely does not care for foul play at all, even at +6. It is a pretty decent counter to any prankster team without taunt as it can knock off lefties, blow away subs with whirlwind, and roost off damage if it is able. It can generally last long enough to get a favorable roll from the RNG.

 

[Subject 18]

Kyurem-Black? Did I hear generation 5 calling again?

Many high level players called for it to be banned and the OU council didn't deem it to be broken. Saying that a Pokemon beats a playstyle doesn't mean its broken and it should be banned. Thundurus-I eats Rain teams for breakfast, lunch and dinner, does that mean Thundurus-I should be banned? No. You need to look at how it is in the Meta as a whole not just one playstyle.

It forces people to use more balanced team setups, which make the game more fun.

If I'm understanding you correctly it's better to have everyone play similar playstyles like balance or bulky offense because its more fun? That isn't how a healthy Metagame should be like. You want to have a diversity in playstyles and all of those playstyles to be as viable as possible. Forcing people to run a "more balanced setups" is bad, not because of the playstyles but because you are being forced to run specific things to have a viable team. This is way Blaziken was one the reason that lead to its banning. You were forced to run Talonflame and Azumarill to prevent yourself from losing to it. Thats not a good at all. A lot of people didn't like BW2 OU because playstyles like stall weren't as viable as Hyper offense. It was monotonous, repetitive and boring I don't see this being a desirable meta. You have to run specific mons to have your team be considered good and viable.

If I misinterpreted what you said, let me know but thats what you made it sound like.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I am all for the banning of moves that induce confusion as the main effect. Confuse Ray, Flatter, Swagger, Supersonic are just random luck factors that really don't have a place in a competitive metagame.

 

[Toljik]

I've used SwagPlay teams before. These are a few Pokemon that gave me trouble:

Rotom-W: The #1 Pokemon in OU is immune to Thunder Wave, takes little from Foul Play and can break Substitutes with Volt Switch.

Alakazam: Magic Guard gives it an immunity to confusion damage, it outspeeds Foul Play users and it has the movepool to take out both Sableye and Liepard.

Crobat & Chandelure: Infiltrator means that they can bypass Substitutes. Prankster users are frail and cannot survive a Brave Bird or Fire Blast at 75% or less health.

Garchomp: A Pokemon with a Thunder Wave immunity, it often carries Lum Berry and loves that Attack boost. It demolishes Klefki and Whimsicott despite them being fairies.

Tornadus and Thundurus: The fastest Prankster users in the game can Taunt any Prankster user slower than it. The latter is immune to Thunder Wave.

Chansey and Blissey: Shaky counters, but I always had trouble with them because they take no damage from Foul Play and they have reliable recovery and Natural Cure. I ran a Conkeldurr just to deal with them.

Charizard-Y: Seriously. On paper it seems like a bad counter, but nothing on my team liked taking a sun-boosted Fire Blast. There's no Fire resists with Prankster, and in fact many are weak to it.

Talonflame: Like Charizard, it has strong Fire type attacks and like Tornadus/Thundurus, it outspeeds other priority users.

Trevenant: While I never actually encountered the Lum Berry variant, it can handle confusion and paralysis. But it has to look out for Foul Play.

 

[wonny2000]

I've always had fun just straight up trolling with Liepard in BW NU, but I feel it may not have been as amusing for the opponent. While I was initially torn between supporting the ban of SwagPlay and being against it, I now think it wasn't exactly fair.

Yes, luck is undeniably ubiquitous in Pokémon, and to completely shun it is unreasonable. But taking advantage of luck and pushing its boundaries turns a mostly (key word: mostly) strategic game into a gamble. This can be detrimental to one's Pokémon battling experience. However, banning Pokémon capable of using these tactics is unreasonable. Outside of SwagPlay, Klefki is an excellent lead and dual screener. Liepard can run Encore instead and still be a decent annoyer. And they would just downright stink in Ubers.

Some say "why not ban Toxic Stalling?". Well, Toxic Stalling is at least controllable and is a valid strategy. It can be countered by the right Pokémon. But SwagPlay, like Moody, is luck-based. Luck can turn the tide of the battle in a split second. Luck cannot be countered and has the capability to shred through whole teams.
However, I don't think the move Swagger should be banned. But if we were to ban Swagger in conjunction with Prankster, then that would be fairer. SwagPlay's foundation is priority Swagger. Take away the priority, and it starts to lose its appeal. Swagger isn't used much outside of SwagPlay anyways. Additionally, I'm quite sure people will find a way around this sooner or later with so many Confusion moves out there, so why not just group them all under a Prankster Confusion Clause or something?

In conclusion:
Ban Swagger (and possibly other Confusion moves) in conjunction with Prankster

 

[lred123]

Not really, aegislash is a viable threat which take lots of skill to use, swagger is stupid and luck based. Most teams wont have a swag check, who are you going to use, lickylicky?(own tempo)

Why bring up licklickly when there are much better checks. You have to rely on luck in every pokemon battle

 

[pharaohcalvin]

ok, tell me one dangerous attacker that is working with Swagger, Substitute, stat-boosting attack and attack-move?

correct, nothing competitive and intelligent on earth would / can do that. Every Pokémon has more and better options than wasting two slots for Swagger & Substitute. Otherwise just juse Roar / Whirlwind / Perish Song and you're fine. Plus it has only 24 PP, come on guys, stahp this.

Didn't Smogon want to stop complex bans after the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban?

Pokemon like Klefki and Leopard have nothing better to do. As far as phasing goes, you still only have a 50% chance. It is completely luck based. Also we can make a ban without making it complex if we want. Such as banning all Confusion causing main effect moves..

 

[CL0V3R]

Great God! Why are people still saying you can beat this with skill? There's a single Pokemon that can beat sash klefki 100% of the time, and while thundorus is nice, EVERY other Pokemon can be beaten by a lucky confusion streak, most of the time,

252+ SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 206-244 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seems pretty good to me. Lol

 

[Rookie06]

All of the counters that people are listing seem to not be actually viable in OU, which would point to the strategy being over centralizing if stuff like Numel actually got used in any tier outside of LC really.

If I had a vote I would say ban Swagger + Prankster for causing dice rolls on the first turn of any given matchup

 

[Anty]

Why bring up licklickly when there are much better checks. You have to rely on luck in every pokemon battle

'Much better checks'. Im changing my team around some stupid luck based things. I have to be weary of hax, but i shouldnt base my team around it.

If this forces your teambuilding, there should be a ban. Like landorus-i last gen, it made people run obscure counters, eg rotom-h, articuno.

 

[sidakarya]

Examples of situations akin to a coin flip scenario:
Using Stone Edge. 80% accuracy, and the chance is on the side of the user.
Using Hydro Pump. ibid.
Using Thunder when it's not raining. 70% accuracy, and not common at all outside Ubers.
Switching out. That is not purely luck-based, that involves prediction. You can call prediction "glorified guessing" all you want, but they are surely not purely luck. Checking and double-switching require estimation of that, what your opponent will do.
Using Hypnosis 60% accuracy and almost never used.
Using Paraflinch There are only two of these, Togekiss and Jirachi (lol dunsparce). Togekiss especially has problems with Electric-types, and Jirachi can be shut down by a faster Ground-type, especially a Steel-resist. They have highly defined counters. Swagger is like Double Team, almost everything under the sun learns it.
Using Swagger on a physical attacker And yet, sometimes it works. This kind of coinflip is exactly that, what we're talking about. And not all swagplay teams are "fight muh 6 prankster swaggers kek", they might have a ditto, or use the confusion chance to set up Pinsir or X-Zard or what have you.
Using Twave on something that can OHKO you Why would you do that if you're not Thundurus and your team's desperately losing?
Setting up hazards when the opponent has a magic bouncer
Setting up hazards/using status moves when the opponent has someone who can use Magic Coat Those aren't luck, they're terrible plays. Of course you wouldn't send out Deo-D, when you've got an Espeon facing you.

To name a few. These things are all based on luck, as is being confused.

My replies in bold.

 

[Ajwf]

You know, there were a lot of people that wanted Kyurem-B banned from 5th Gen OU. We just ran out of time before XY came along and didn't have enough time for a real suspect test. Besides, "playstyle revenge" is not a legitimate reason to ban or not ban something.

This isn't revenge. I'm fine with banning the prankster/swagger combo, however there are apparently 722 forms of pokemon that can use swagger, and I know a few that have a niche using it. Someone already suggested Swagger Quagsire, which is quite a legitimate strategy. Confuse ray lanturn and others to phaze are a fine way to force an opponent into switching or gambling. There is nothing inherently wrong with doing this. Yawn does the same thing, in essence.

Many high level players called for it to be banned and the OU council didn't deem it to be broken. Saying that a Pokemon beats a playstyle doesn't mean its broken and it should be banned. Thundurus-I eats Rain teams for breakfast, lunch and dinner, does that mean Thundurus-I should be banned? No. You need to look at how it is in the Meta as a whole not just one playstyle.

Your quote was:

Why would it be better to deny an entire playstyle?

I've done nothing more than draw a parallel. Nor, with that post, did you look at the meta as a whole. The meta as a whole wins against PranksterSwagger more as teams get more defensive. This is obvious. It is ALSO the exact opposite with Kyurem. I know how it affects the meta, but trying to take out confusion as a whole is unfair and the whole basis is that less defensive teams suffer due to it. There are uses to it, there are well built teams using this that don't rely on so much luck as they do actual team focus (paralyze/disable pokemon, sweep them with a slower, monstrous sweeper like Garchomp-mega).

Let's be honest: People dislike Klefki and prankster teams using this strategy. NOT this strategy in general.

 

[SmogonTeamJackson]

The overwhelming support this thread has seen only proves the competitive pokemon community is far too mature to find enjoyment in such childish strategies as Swag-Play that are in essence based on pure luck, and not skill.

Thus, not only will we soon be banning all luck-based moves and strategies such as (but not limited to):
Paralysis
Flinch
Confusion

In addition to this, after long and hard thinking, us higher-ups have decided to take this opportunity to go on a spree, nay, a crusade, against luck-based elements in the game.
Thus, we will also be banning items such as Bright Powder, and any moves with less than 100% accuracy. This is in order to maintain a fair metagame where predictive skill will be critical to your success, not the alignment of the stars or other such occult nonsense.

Furthermore, there is a new tier, very soon to be implemented as the standard OU tier, wherein the only allowed moves are SonicBoom and Dragonrage.
There will be an Uber tier later where the only allowed moves are Seismic Toss and Night Shade. This is because the council has come to the decision that damage ranges were detrimental to skillful, strategic play.
For example, a 93.3% chance to 2HKO is still a 6.7% of losing out, by no fault of your own.

These changes will become effective as per March 1st, thank you for reading and supporting Smogon™ University and Pokemon Showdown!©.

 

[noobcubed]

252+ SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 206-244 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seems pretty good to me. Lol

Except that the consensus is that Xatu is no longer OU viable...

 

[Toljik]

252+ SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 206-244 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Seems pretty good to me. Lol

There's plenty of Pokemon in OU that can handle SwagPlay. Mentioning things like Xatu and Numel just weakens our case.

 

[lred123]

'Much better checks'. Im changing my team around some stupid luck based things. I have to be weary of hax, but i shouldnt base my team around it.

If this forces your teambuilding, there should be a ban. Like landorus-i last gen, it made people run obscure counters, eg rotom-h, articuno.

tons of threats cause need for teambuilding if your not prepared you will get plowed by charizard x

 

[SoulRed12]

To the people likening swagger to other moves having a chance to miss:

After one turn, swagger reduces chances of moving to 50%. After two turns, thunder wave reduces it to 37.5%. Which means you have a 50% * 62.5% = 31.25% of not being able to do anything on both turns.

Focus Miss Blast has a miss percentage of 30%. Which means you have a 30% * 30% = 9% chance to miss both turns.

How are these two things anywhere near alike?

Yes, this is a calculated manipulation of the odds. Nobody's denying that swagplay teams do this deliberately. The problem is that it is anti-competitive because it's not strategy, it's autopilot, like "sleep everything." Prankster swagger will instantly reduce everything to 50% chance of moving before they can do anything, except own tempo mons (rare, even rarer if even existent in OU) and faster pranksters (read: Whimsicott) or faster priority users (good luck doing much damage to Thundurus or Klefki with them on turn 1).

To everyone saying "lol just switch out", enjoy getting re-confused before you can do anything thanks to prankster. Not to mention, the switch itself gives the swagplayer a free substitute. Yes, things like ro-dub and sylveon are nice because they make the strategy take longer to pull off, but that doesn't help when you're still hitting yourself every other turn, struggling to break substitutes, and taking foul play damage.

Yes, luck is undeniably ubiquitous in Pokémon, and to completely shun it is unreasonable. But taking advantage of luck and pushing its boundaries turns a mostly (key word: mostly) strategic game into a gamble.

This. This this this. The issue isn't because prankster swagger introduces luck into the game, it's that it makes the game almost entirely luck-based. And who cares the percentage of times the strategy wins? The strategy isn't being discussed concerning because people think it's too powerful, it's being discussed because people think it's anti-competitive. Nobody is suggesting that luck should be eliminated, that's a strawman.

 

[Gehenna]

My god, there are so many troll posts in this thread. Anyways, by all means, ban Swagger if this is really an issue (haven't ran into it yet in XY OU). Reminds me of the Moody debate from early in the B/W meta. I think the key question here is, "does swagplay do more harm than good?" While it's true that the game involves a moderate degree of luck, I believe the same logic that was applied to banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak can apply here.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Except that the consensus is that Xatu is no longer OU viable...

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/xatu

seemed to be viable in ubers last gen

 

[Toljik]

My god, there are so many troll posts in this thread. Anyways, by all means, ban Swagger if this is really an issue (haven't ran into it yet in XY OU). Reminds me of the Moody debate from early in the B/W meta. I think the key question here is, "does swagplay do more harm than good?" While it's true that the game involves a moderate degree of luck, I believe the same logic that was applied to banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak can apply here.

I don't think we need to go that far and ban Swagger entirely. Swagger alone is far easier to stop than Swagger + Prankster, and requires thinking about what you're using Swagger on.

For instance, Umbreon probably shouldn't use Swagger against a Terrakion.