Metagame Sword and Shield CAP Metagame Discussion

[spoo]

Wanted to make a post giving my very initial impressions on venomicon. The mons have only been out for a couple of days so take everything I say with a grain of salt, literally nothing is set in stone for them at this point.

Venomicon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Earth Power
- Roost

This mon is absolutely ridiculous on paper (lol), and while in practice I think you can sort of suffocate it throughout a game to where it won't be too oppressive (especially if it's knocked), it still has a lot of potential to autowin some matchups if you don't have a hard answer. In my experience, the prologue forme excels at repeatedly forcing positive trades. There is virtually nothing in the tier that can OHKO it––your viable options boil down to specs lele, specs zone, zolt under hail, or NMI/Specs Kyurem (probably getting banned)––which ultimately means that at +2 SpA you can eat almost any hit and often OHKO back with Hurricane or EP. Things like Tapu Koko, Zeraora, and Weavile fail to become reliable answers when book is at full health, because they will just deal 80%, die to EP/Cane, and then book roosts up on your lando 10 turns later. This is also largely why I don't think mystical fire is all that good; you lose your ability to cheese past electric-type answers, plus you just get shit on by heatran which is very sad. Defensive "answers" to this mon like Corv are quite bad, too, as you can freely NP on them for all eternity. TLDR, book is good.

Building with this mon was strange at first, but I've found that all it really means is you can't rely on Corv as your bulky steel/defogger or Pex as your bulky water. You can sort of get away with Corv + book because there are worse things to exist than stacking flying-types, but realistically you're also running lando 80% of the time, and running two additional bulky flying-types that overlap defensively with each other in checking fairies + grounds just feels suboptimal. Pex is also not great for similar reasons; two bulky poisons is certainly doable, but still awkward on the majority of structures. Other steel-types like Ferrothorn, Melm, Magnezone, and Heatran are exceptional partners instead, with double steel cores being particularly effective. Tapu Fini has personally been the easiest bulky water to use alongside venom, but either of the slowtwins are also solid (notably colbur bro), as well as argh if you can fit a durable rshifu/lele check elsewhere. Zone is an especially good partner for trapping steel-types that annoy it, but frankly you can work around these steels regardless––venom is a very self sufficient wincon. Offensive partners like Tapu Koko are very reliable for getting book in vs ground-types so it can roost up, Dragapult can do the same vs fairies/sometimes lando, and Weavile is nice because it gives you a soft pult check, which has otherwise been sorta weird to fit in my experience.

Venomicon-Epilogue @ Vile Vial
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Gunk Shot / Knock Off
- Roost

God this one is so fun lol. +2 TL Brave Bird is a damn menace. I don't think there's a ton to say about this that we didn't already expect; there are essentially 0 good defensive answers at +2, and if you play this mon correctly, you are in good standing to claim like 3 kills per game. That said, recoil is huge, as are rocks. I have not found venome/ebook/plane/epipen (but fr what are we calling this mon) to be particularly overwhleming in practice, despite its incredibly high peaks. Teams with a physically bulky regenerator like Pex/Bro, double steel cores (especially those with ferro), and a capable rkiller like Weav/Koko are all decently well-equipped to handle this mon. Not all three are necessary, but you should probably have two out of the three. I have also seen a lot of discussion around this thing's potential sets; things like STABs+Uturn+roost, sub+SD, and sets with rocks have all been discussed, and I don't know if we will have the "optimal" set for a while. Speaking personally though, I am very high on SD + 2 Attacks and think rocks sets are quite bad. Gunk is great for dealing with pex/lando without taking recoil, but Knock is just as good for removing tran/ferro/pex/slowbro's items early game, ultimately paying off a ton in the long run. Both have pros and cons, I don't think one is necessarily better than the other atm, but I'll say I personally favor Knock slightly right now.

Building with this has also been weird, arguably more so than base forme book. It's not quite fast enough for you to use as your sole speed control, you ideally want double removal support, and it has the same building-redundancy problem that the base forme does (though to a slightly lesser degree). Electric-types, especially Tapu Koko and Zone, are superb partners for this mon; Koko solves the speed control issue and can pivot you in on ground-types, whereas Zone's ability to delete steel-types is ridiculously useful. As for double removal, this isn't strictly necessary but is definitely nice. Defog Lando+Fog Astro/Fini/Washtom has pretty good synergy, but again, double removal isn't a "must." The type-overlap making Pokemon like Corviknight redundant is annoying, but you can get away with it better than with regular book because they aren't overlapping as much in their actual role of checking stuff defensively, merely in their type synergy. On the other hand, though, ebook can offer some cool stuff to a team; for example, using only lando or torn as your ground-type answer isn't great because they will usually get knocked/toxiced at some point, but ebook+lando is fairly competent against opposing grounds. A similar thing exists where this mon can soft-check fairies and grasses to take pressure off of its partners on bulky offense builds.

---

Closing thoughts:
I don't want to give a preliminary viability ranking or say whether I think they will end up nerfed or not, because it has legit been three days. However, I feel confident saying I'm really pleased with how these mons turned out, and that both are very strong in their own right. Stamina forme's probably a little better, but not by much. I've been building a decent amount with these two, and with the playtest coming up I don't want anyone to go teamless, so I'm dumping some stuff. Few builds are incomplete but I cba to finish them and maybe they will inspire someone. Enjoy:
https://pokepast.es/8b41e3d90dac6449

 

[spoo]

Hello, I am here doubleposting to rant extensively about cawmodore and advocate for a nerf.

I realize cawmodore discourse is incredibly played out and we are all tired of it. It gets brought up again every couple months (with most of the exact same points) whenever someone forgets why we didn't do anything about it last time, or believes that it has gotten significantly worse. Today that person is me, and I believe that the problematic elements surrounding cawmodore can be felt much more intensely than even just a couple metas/months ago.

Before getting into the meat of my argument, I think it's important to acknowledge that cawmodore is actually a bad pokemon. By "bad" I am speaking in terms of viability/effectiveness and not "it makes me sad." In the majority of games against Cawmodore, if you don't see it outright win, the most it will do is bullet punch a torn for 75% and die to heat wave. This "feast or famine" nature makes it an incredibly inconsistent option, and arguably an outright bad one on many HO structures. True there are certain cases where cawmodore successfully weakens an opponent's pokemon to pave way for a teammate to sweep, or at least lines up a setup opportunity for them nicely, but frankly the mon is uselessly selfish in the vast majority of cases. Its main purpose of existence on HO is to auto-win against teams without one of the few viable answers.

Well, why does it need a nerf then? And what has changed since the last time we had this conversation? I think these two questions are related. I believe that the threat saturation in CAP has increased dramatically since the last time we went over nerfing cawmodore. Previously, one did not have to go out of their way to include a check to it on their team. At this point, however, it feels as though our defensive cores are incredibly pressured to account for everything in the builder –– only further amplified by the release of two new incredible win conditions –– to where options for cawmodore counterplay feel more restricting than ever.

For context, here is a list of viable cawmodore counterplay. It is not guaranteed to be 100% exhaustive, but probably 90 or 95% exhaustive. You can also find it in the PS room's rfaq for cawmodore. (The fact that we were forced to have a cawmodore rfaq should be telling in itself.)

Hide

DEFENSIVE CHECKS-
Aegislash: Lives any hit from +6 aside from Knock Off and can KO with Shadow Ball
Arghonaut: Cannot be OHKO'd due to Unaware and can phaze with Circle Throw
Clefable: Cannot be OHKO'd due to Unaware and can eventually beat it with Moonblast
Cyclohm: Lives any hit from +6 and can KO with Flamethrower
Hippowdon: Has an 81.2% chance to live +6 Acrobatics from full health and can phaze with Whirlwind
Skarmory: Lives any hit from +6 and can phaze with Whirlwind, set up with Iron Defense, or KO with Counter
Tomohawk: Can utilize Prankster + Haze to remove Cawmodore's boosts
Toxapex + Landorus-T/Tomohawk: Has an 81.2% chance to live +5 Acrobatics (after Intimidate) from full health and can remove boosts with Haze
Zapdos: Lives any hit from +6 and can KO with Heat Wave

OFFENSIVE CHECKS-
Arctozolt (Life Orb under hail): If undamaged by hazards, 16 SpA Life Orb Arctozolt lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Blizzard
Astrolotl (Choice Scarf): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with any STAB
Blacephalon (Choice Scarf): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Fire-type STAB
Dracozolt (under sand): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Fire Blast
Dragapult: If undamaged by hazards, it lives +6 Bullet Punch from full health and can KO with Specs Shadow Ball/Flamethrower or cripple with Will-O-Wisp
Heatran (Scarfed): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Fire-type STAB
Tapu Fini (Scarfed): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with 252 Spa Hydro Pump or lock Cawmodore into a move with Trick
Tapu Lele (Scarfed): If Cawmodore has taken Stealth Rock damage, can outspeed and KO with Focus Blast
Tornadus-T: Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Heat Wave
Urshifu-RS (Scarfed): If Cawmodore has taken Stealth Rock damage, can outspeed and KO with Surging Strikes or Close Combat
Victini (Scarfed): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Fire-type STAB
Volkraken (Scarfed): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Fire-type STAB
Zeraora (under sun): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Sun-boosted Blaze Kick

On first glance, there's a ton of shit here. On closer inspection though, there really isn't. If I were to condense this list into counterplay that is both B+ and above on the VR and not (subjectively speaking) niche/demanding of heavy team support/limiting of common defensive structures (read: both good and splashable), here is what we get:

Hide

DEFENSIVE CHECKS-
Arghonaut: Cannot be OHKO'd due to Unaware and can phaze with Circle Throw
Toxapex + Landorus-T/Tomohawk: Has an 81.2% chance to live +5 Acrobatics (after Intimidate) from full health and can remove boosts with Haze
Zapdos: Lives any hit from +6 and can KO with Heat Wave

OFFENSIVE CHECKS-
Astrolotl: (Choice Scarf): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with any STAB
Dragapult: If undamaged by hazards, it lives +6 Bullet Punch from full health and can KO with Specs Shadow Ball/Flamethrower or cripple with Will-O-Wisp
Tapu Fini (Scarfed): Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with 252 Spa Hydro Pump or lock Cawmodore into a move with Trick
Tornadus-T: Lives +6 Bullet Punch and can KO with Heat Wave

So, this sucks now. Also note that many of the things here come with strings attached, such as landing your move (we've all missed heat waves against cawm and it never sucks any less), rolls in your favor (hippo won't always live acro, for example), or certain field conditions like weather/rocks being on/off the field. Not only is your pool of checks quite limited, but ultimately a well-prepped team is still beholden to luck; you can't claim to be "consistent" or "safe" against cawmodore even when using a large amount of the options listed.

Getting more to my main point, I do not want to run a torn, zapdos, argh, or dragapult on every team. And maybe I can't guarantee that rocks are off the field if I use dragapult, or on the field if I use scarf lele. Does this make my team bad? Does this make me a lazy teambuilder? Obviously not. You can have a near-perfect team within the context of the metagame and still get 6-0'd by cawmodore. Personally I feel like this is BS. To illustrate, here is the team I brought in the Venomicon showcase match:
(+ venomicon-e, RIP the minisprite)
I don't think this is a bad team, but it does get 6-0'd by cawmodore. In fact, cawmodore can trivially set up on 3 or 4 pokemon here.

Once again I will reiterate that cawmodore's problems got worse after venomicon's release. I think it's safe to say that tornadus has (at least within recent metas) been the most splashable and effective cawmodore answer, but it recently got a lot less easy to slap on a team. Part of this is just due to how we build teams + many good cawmodore answers being flying types. Let's assume you are running a standard BO/balance, meaning you probably have a landorus. Now let us also assume you want to use venomicon, and you don't want to use a third flying type. Well, cawm counterplay looks sorta dire. Either go max physdef pex and pray you live the roll, add a dragapult/scarf astro/scarf fini (these won't always fit), add an argh and probably lose to venom-e because your physdef wall + bulky water gets OHKO'd by BB, or, like... use whatever niche stuff is left over. In my experience building with both venomicon formes, it's incredibly hard to fit a sturdy cawmodore answer on your team without making major creative or defensive sacrifices. Sure you can add a cyclohm or something and be safe, but because of the insane amount of threats that the CAP metagame demands you currently answer, you will end up losing to much more common & more relevant threats if you go out of your way to safely check the bird.

I would also like to briefly address the "don't give it a free turn to set up" argument. Truthfully, this is an unrealistic expectation in many cases. Say you are in with a weakened lando vs your opponent's BU zera. If you click anything other than EQ or toxic, you stand a chance to lose. However, if they double to cawmodore and you don't click u-turn, you also may lose. Replace the lando with a rillaboom/ferrothorn/whatever else. This is a difficult situation to be in. Alternatively, you're in with your koko vs a moltres-galar. You can't afford to let it set up, so you must click thunderbolt/gleam. However, if they double to cawm you could get swept. I hope the issue is making itself clear. This thing sets up on a BS amount of threats, which makes "simply deny it free turns" unfeasible in a non-negligible amount of games.

Just so this post has a more actionable conclusion, here are the four ways we could theoretically go about a nerf:

1. Remove Volt Absorb
2. Attack Nerf
3. Speed Nerf
4. Movepool Nerf

Option 1 is arguably the cleanest, and adds Zeraora, Tapu Koko, and Krilowatt to its pool of checks. Personally I am slightly less sold on this option because cawm remains a matchup fish and dishonest as hell, just three more things can rkill it now. This also does very little to futureproof cawm because there's nothing stopping these checks from falling off in the future, landing us essentially back where we started. I think that Option 3 has the same problem but with even fewer mons added to its pool of rkillers, unless we are okay with a more severe speed nerf ie >15. Option 4 is pretty bad and I don't even know where we'd start. Removing priorty? Coverage? Really no idea. Option 2 is my personal favorite, as it allows for both greater offensive and defensive counterplay & goes the longest way in making cawm more "honest." Option 1 is a close second.

 

[Pipotchi]

Thats a well written and thought out post. Cawms gunna get nerfed this time for sure

 

[D2TheW]

Time to talk about caps most notorious bird.

First things first, this is just my opinion, it's not reflective of other council members. We've discussed cawm a fair bit as of late and we're nowhere close to a unanimous agreement.

Second things second, cawm should be pretty low priority rn. This meta is in quite the flux atm. We've just introduced two strong caps into the meta, kyurem has been banned, capcl will shake up the meta and there's still plans to run another buff process sooner or later. Keeping an eye on the books, especially thicc book, should be our top priority for the moment. That said, this is still a good discussion to have, and I wanted to contribute to it so let's get into it.

I am of the stance that cawm doesn't need a nerf. Spoo went through cawm answers pretty thoroughly (though he somehow forgot foul play stunfisk :dogsmile:) and honestly? I think that the counterplay we have is sufficient. Pult and Torn are both everywhere rn, astro, fini and lele are both common scarfers, Zapdos is rising again thanks to the books, argh is still a fine mon. Considering that Cawm is a B ranked mon with fair usage in tours, that only reasonably fits on one style, we don't exactly need an extensive list of hard counters.

I think part of the reason that people consider this list to be not enough comes from the dogma that some people have that every team needs a cawm answer. In my opinion that really just ain't necessary. Running teams that lose to cawm is a risk, same as any other teambuilding risk. You take that risk too often, you're likely to be punished but if you're careful about it you can 100% get away with skimping on your cawm answers. Crying is an excellent example, achieving great success in various individuals and cappl with consistently bad mus. Crying was eventually punished in the builder for this, but pushing your luck too much will usually go that way. Some pretty basic scouting will usually do the trick here. Facing ho aficionados like SHSP? Run cawm answers. Facing fat team fans like TNM? You can probably get away with it. Running a cawm answer on literally every single team is a bit overboard, and makes it feel like more of a problem than it really is.

Congratulations, you're about halfway through the post. Keep going, there's a dog at the end as a reward.

There are a few other weird ideas about cawm that are also stuck in my craw, that I think may contribute to some people's issues with cawm. In particular, the well worn idea that cawm either 6-0s on preview or is useless. This just ain't the truth. Cawm doesn't have as many soft answers as most but they do exist. Lando T is one of it's easiest set up opportunities but also annoys it by sacking itself for Intimidate drops, allowing other stuff like pult to answer it better. HO teams are classic examples of teams that almost never use cawm answers but get by through sheer pressure. The idea that cawm is useless if there's an answer is only really true if the team is badly made. Ho mons are pretty universally looking to do 1 of 3 things:
1) Sweep
2) Break for another sweeper
3) Be such a threat that it forces your opponent to play a certain way.
Cawm is obviously pretty good at 1. It's not amazing at 2 but it does break pretty nicely for stuff like kart and lucha, which can do likewise. 3 is where it can really excel, forcing your opponent to play super careful, and often in a ways that can be exploited if the team is built for it. For example if pult is their cawm answer, your oppo is likely gonna do whatever they can to keep rocks off, which you can abuse. All of this is pretty obvious, but the point here is to address that idea of cawm being a 6-0 or nothing. Rather than making cawm out as a broken and in need of nerfing, it makes cawm out as dysfunctional and in need of fixing.

Now while I don't think cawm needs nerfing, I'm not that invested in saving it. If the council and community come to the consensus that a nerf is necessary, I am very much in the attack nerf camp. Specifically, an attack nerf of about 15 in it's attack stat would allow pult to live bp after rocks, would ease the ev burden on Zapdos and would give max physdef pex pretty favourable odds to live with hazards off. A nerf down to around 70 would let pex always live with hazards off. I'm pretty against dropping volt absorb tbh, unless it receives some pretty solid compensation. It 'only' really adds zera, koko and kril as answers but that's still super ass for the bird. Pult, Zera, Koko and Torn are the go to speed control for a huge amount of teams and losing to all of those is a massive hindrance. A lot of teams run two of these because torn is just so good so trying to get a good cawm mu will be pretty awful, especially since most of the teams that don't use these would use scarfers as speed control, which would usually have a solid cawm mu, or are ho teams which cawm already hates. I've seen some people argue that the steel/flying type beating electrics is just fundamentally stupid but tbh, I just don't care. Kril is a volt switcher that beats ground types, oml, ban that shit. Reducing anything down to that level of simplicity can make a whole lot of perfectly reasonable mons sound nutty. Speed nerfs don't really add that much, and I really don't know where to start with movepool nerfs.

TL:DR: I don't support nerfing cawm, but if we have to, nerf it's attack.

Thanks for reading all that

Here's your reward, another pic of Ace my friend's ridiculously cute dog.

 

[reachzero]

My thoughts on Cawmodore have always been clear: it's the single worst aspect of the CAP metagame. No one particularly enjoys other forms of matchup fishing, but Caw is incredibly binary in this regard. I believe the Dracovish comparison has been made before so I'm not breaking any ground here, but it is very, very similar. You can look at a team at team preview and recognize almost immediately whether the team loses to Cawmodore or not, and if not, what the team would have to do wrong to lose to Cawmodore (commonly, allow Sticky Web to stay on the field). Accounting for Caw is such a constraint on team building that most good players in important tournaments are simply choosing to ignore it, and if it does show up they will lose, almost guaranteed. That is not a healthy metagame element, and we have known that for ages.

Something will always feel more urgent than nerfing Cawmodore, and yet it is the #1 CAP problem, and has been for some time. There is no issue more important.

If not now, then when?

 

[Steam Buns]

While I do have lots to say on why to "nerf" cawm, I don't really have the time or energy to fully explore that discussion it right now. But for the sake of keeping the discussion alive I'd like to skip that step and talk about the how.

Now, I don't think we should necessarily be trying to make cawm worse because its not that good in the first place, but rather making it less polarising. Which is why I don't really like options 1-3 brought up by spoo because they either won't fix the issue at all, or will make cawm too ineffective to ever use.
Option 4 on the other hand, has what I believe to be simple and elegant solution:

- Remove acrobatics
- Remove drain punch (will still have brick break)
- Add brave bird

These changes achieve 2 main things:
First of all, forcing cawm to rely on a recoil move to dish out damage without any way to get health back puts a hard limit on how much damage cawm can do to any one team, preventing or at least significantly limiting the chance for 6-0 matchups, while also making counterplay much less linear.
Replacing acrobatics also has the benefit of giving cawm a little more freedom in how it can be used without straying any further from its original concept, ultimately making the mon less of an "all or nothing" experience.

would love to know what people think about this!

 

[spoo]

Usage stats for playtest, enjoy

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   |   95 |  49.48% |  47.37% |
| 2    | Heatran            |   56 |  29.17% |  55.36% |
| 3    | Dragapult          |   54 |  28.12% |  55.56% |
| 4    | Venomicon          |   48 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Venomicon-Epilogue |   40 |  20.83% |  47.50% |
| 6    | Tapu Koko          |   39 |  20.31% |  53.85% |
| 7    | Melmetal           |   34 |  17.71% |  47.06% |
| 8    | Slowbro            |   33 |  17.19% |  57.58% |
| 9    | Ferrothorn         |   31 |  16.15% |  64.52% |
| 9    | Zapdos             |   31 |  16.15% |  64.52% |
| 11   | Clefable           |   30 |  15.62% |  60.00% |
| 12   | Tornadus-Therian   |   28 |  14.58% |  53.57% |
| 12   | Astrolotl          |   28 |  14.58% |  42.86% |
| 14   | Arghonaut          |   26 |  13.54% |  57.69% |
| 15   | Tapu Fini          |   25 |  13.02% |  32.00% |
| 16   | Weavile            |   24 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Equilibra          |   23 |  11.98% |  43.48% |
| 18   | Colossoil          |   22 |  11.46% |  68.18% |
| 19   | Zeraora            |   21 |  10.94% |  47.62% |
| 20   | Tapu Lele          |   20 |  10.42% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Garchomp           |   20 |  10.42% |  40.00% |
| 22   | Cawmodore          |   19 |   9.90% |  36.84% |
| 23   | Pajantom           |   18 |   9.38% |  61.11% |
| 23   | Corviknight        |   18 |   9.38% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Volcarona          |   15 |   7.81% |  53.33% |
| 25   | Toxapex            |   15 |   7.81% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Magnezone          |   15 |   7.81% |  26.67% |
| 28   | Zapdos-Galar       |   13 |   6.77% |  76.92% |
| 28   | Regieleki          |   13 |   6.77% |  53.85% |
| 28   | Scizor             |   13 |   6.77% |  30.77% |
| 31   | Urshifu-*          |   11 |   5.73% |  63.64% |
| 31   | Revenankh          |   11 |   5.73% |  36.36% |
| 31   | Jumbao             |   11 |   5.73% |  36.36% |
| 31   | Moltres-Galar      |   11 |   5.73% |  27.27% |
| 35   | Tyranitar          |   10 |   5.21% |  50.00% |
| 35   | Cyclohm            |   10 |   5.21% |  40.00% |
| 37   | Hippowdon          |    9 |   4.69% |  66.67% |
| 37   | Necturna           |    9 |   4.69% |  55.56% |
| 39   | Mew                |    8 |   4.17% |  62.50% |
| 40   | Rotom-Wash         |    7 |   3.65% |  57.14% |
| 40   | Slowking           |    7 |   3.65% |  42.86% |
| 40   | Blissey            |    7 |   3.65% |  28.57% |
| 43   | Victini            |    6 |   3.12% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Slowking-Galar     |    6 |   3.12% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Voodoom            |    6 |   3.12% |  33.33% |
| 43   | Syclant            |    6 |   3.12% |  16.67% |
| 43   | Rillaboom          |    6 |   3.12% |  16.67% |
| 48   | Tapu Bulu          |    5 |   2.60% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Kyurem             |    5 |   2.60% |  80.00% |
| 48   | Rotom-Heat         |    5 |   2.60% |  60.00% |
| 48   | Fidgit             |    5 |   2.60% |  40.00% |
| 48   | Hatterene          |    5 |   2.60% |  40.00% |
| 48   | Ninetales-Alola    |    5 |   2.60% |  20.00% |
| 48   | Kartana            |    5 |   2.60% |  20.00% |
| 55   | Volcanion          |    4 |   2.08% | 100.00% |
| 55   | Blacephalon        |    4 |   2.08% |  75.00% |
| 55   | Azumarill          |    4 |   2.08% |  75.00% |
| 55   | Chromera           |    4 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Cresselia          |    4 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Crawdaunt          |    4 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Marowak-Alola      |    4 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Buzzwole           |    4 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Tomohawk           |    4 |   2.08% |  25.00% |
| 55   | Krilowatt          |    4 |   2.08% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Skarmory           |    3 |   1.56% |  66.67% |
| 65   | Excadrill          |    3 |   1.56% |  66.67% |
| 65   | Mamoswine          |    3 |   1.56% |  66.67% |
| 65   | Wigglytuff         |    3 |   1.56% |  66.67% |
| 65   | Blaziken           |    3 |   1.56% |  33.33% |
| 65   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |   1.56% |  33.33% |
| 65   | Stratagem          |    3 |   1.56% |  33.33% |
| 65   | Arctozolt          |    3 |   1.56% |  33.33% |
| 65   | Hawlucha           |    3 |   1.56% |  33.33% |
| 74   | Nidoking           |    2 |   1.04% | 100.00% |
| 74   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   1.04% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Kitsunoh           |    2 |   1.04% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Volkraken          |    2 |   1.04% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Naviathan          |    2 |   1.04% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Celesteela         |    2 |   1.04% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Crucibelle         |    2 |   1.04% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Caribolt           |    2 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 74   | Togekiss           |    2 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 74   | Hydreigon          |    2 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 74   | Gastrodon          |    2 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 74   | Nihilego           |    2 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 74   | Latias             |    2 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Reuniclus          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Necrozma           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Swampert           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Mandibuzz          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Aegislash          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Snaelstrom         |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Ditto              |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Glastrier          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Pyukumuku          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Porygon2           |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Jirachi            |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |

 

[SHSP]

| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 95 | 49.48% | 47.37% |

The king is back, mon's even better than it used to be and feels so good to put on teams imo. Very flexible and can handle the Books among others.

| 2 | Heatran | 56 | 29.17% | 55.36% |

If I remember right, playtest predates a lot of the Air Balloon Tran usage we've seen so far in non-CAP tournaments like SPL and even in CAP like CAPCL. Surprised to see it so high here without that additional set, but I expect to see even more Tran going forward.

| 4 | Venomicon | 48 | 25.00% | 50.00% |
| 5 | Venomicon-Epilogue | 40 | 20.83% | 47.50% |

Book Club with a ton of usage but not as high of a winrate as some expected (sure some of these are assuredly mirrors, so it's not gonna hit like 60% numbers). I'm fully expecting to see more Epilogue than base form as time goes on, but both seem quite solid.

| 17 | Equilibra | 23 | 11.98% | 43.48% |

I'm sure a lot of this is Known Libra Afficionado Number Man, but it's interesting to see a Libra resurgence. I haven't thought about it in my building as of late, but I'm curious to hear what other people think of it.

| 22 | Cawmodore | 19 | 9.90% | 36.84% |

More Cawm than I expected to see, truthfully, but lord that is an ugly winrate. More to chew on with everyone's favorite Cawm discourse, I guess.

 

[dex]

9 | Ferrothorn | 31 | 16.15% | 64.52% |

No surprise that everyone's favorite wall has seen an unprecedented renaissance. Though the books match up favorably into Ferrothorn, it still offers so much to a team that it fits on pretty much every balance build seamlessly.

| 9 | Zapdos | 31 | 16.15% | 64.52%

I think the books have definitely given Zapdos a boost in popularity, as it is one of one mons that can switch into both effectively. However, I don't think that the books really have that much to do with Zapdos's success. It matches up exceedingly well into pretty much every Flying-type that is popular at the moment, and given that essentially every team has one, Zapdos has already made its case as one of the best defensive options in the tier.

| 17 | Equilibra | 23 | 11.98% | 43.48% |

I do not doubt that Equilibra is viable currently. It's ridiculous typing + ability combination, along with the role compression it provides, will pretty much always assure that it is usable. I do think, however, that Landorus-T rears its ugly head here. Equilibra has a losing matchup into the more popular Ground-immune Ground-type due to Knock Off and Smack Down Landorus-T variants picking up steam in the wake of Venomicon's strength. The winrate is a little under 50, and as far as I could tell, mostly good players used it.

| 18 | Colossoil | 22 | 11.46% | 68.18% |

Now this is a winrate I did not expect. Colossoil benefits greatly from being essentially the only viable defensive Ghost-resistant Pokemon in the tier. It still offers nice role compression, and while in the past Corviknight made the whale pretty sad, Corviknight's slight drop in usage opens the door for Colossoil to be successful again.

| 28 | Zapdos-Galar | 13 | 6.77% | 76.92% |

Lastly, let's talk about the highest winrate among mons with at least 10 uses. Galarian Zapdos is pretty nuts, mainly due to its dumb breaking ability. The high Landorus-T usage in the tier really gives Galarian Zapdos a boost, and while a 77% is probably a little misleading, this mon is here to stay.

 

[Hpdsd]

I gotta ask this i know it isn't that relevant but why is Protowatt's movepool so small, is it incomplete or this is it?

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

I gotta ask this i know it isn't that relevant but why is Protowatt's movepool so small, is it incomplete or this is it?

To quote the original creator of the movepool, "I wanted to just have a movepool that reflects Protowatt being similar to Magikarp as a weak Water-Type Pokemon. As such, it learns very little moves via Level-Up, doesn't learn anything through TM/TR/Tutor (And also Transfer-Only moves by extension) and evolves extremely early." You can read more here.

In the future, questions that are less about the metagame and more about CAPs and the CAP process can go to the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread in the CAP Process subforum. If you have a metagame-related question, this subforum has its own Simple Questions Simple Answers thread.

 

[Brambane]

Current state of the meta:

 

[spoo]

Yo, seasonal usage stats

Winter Seasonal

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   |  201 |  55.22% |  53.23% |
| 2    | Ferrothorn         |  102 |  28.02% |  49.02% |
| 3    | Heatran            |   89 |  24.45% |  55.06% |
| 4    | Tapu Fini          |   81 |  22.25% |  54.32% |
| 5    | Toxapex            |   77 |  21.15% |  59.74% |
| 6    | Dragapult          |   71 |  19.51% |  53.52% |
| 6    | Tornadus-Therian   |   71 |  19.51% |  45.07% |
| 8    | Zeraora            |   63 |  17.31% |  58.73% |
| 9    | Weavile            |   62 |  17.03% |  54.84% |
| 10   | Astrolotl          |   58 |  15.93% |  48.28% |
| 11   | Venomicon          |   50 |  13.74% |  58.00% |
| 11   | Zapdos             |   50 |  13.74% |  54.00% |
| 13   | Tapu Koko          |   48 |  13.19% |  45.83% |
| 14   | Tapu Lele          |   47 |  12.91% |  51.06% |
| 15   | Colossoil          |   44 |  12.09% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Clefable           |   43 |  11.81% |  46.51% |
| 16   | Garchomp           |   43 |  11.81% |  37.21% |
| 18   | Corviknight        |   38 |  10.44% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Cawmodore          |   36 |   9.89% |  33.33% |
| 20   | Equilibra          |   35 |   9.62% |  54.29% |
| 21   | Venomicon-Epilogue |   33 |   9.07% |  54.55% |
| 21   | Slowking-Galar     |   33 |   9.07% |  51.52% |
| 21   | Blacephalon        |   33 |   9.07% |  39.39% |
| 24   | Pajantom           |   32 |   8.79% |  46.88% |
| 25   | Pyroak             |   31 |   8.52% |  54.84% |
| 26   | Melmetal           |   30 |   8.24% |  53.33% |
| 27   | Dragonite          |   28 |   7.69% |  57.14% |
| 27   | Kartana            |   28 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Rotom-Wash         |   27 |   7.42% |  66.67% |
| 29   | Ninetales-Alola    |   27 |   7.42% |  37.04% |
| 31   | Stratagem          |   26 |   7.14% |  57.69% |
| 32   | Arghonaut          |   25 |   6.87% |  48.00% |
| 33   | Urshifu-*          |   24 |   6.59% |  29.17% |
| 34   | Moltres-Galar      |   21 |   5.77% |  38.10% |
| 35   | Blissey            |   20 |   5.49% |  65.00% |
| 36   | Chromera           |   19 |   5.22% |  68.42% |
| 36   | Buzzwole           |   19 |   5.22% |  63.16% |
| 36   | Slowbro            |   19 |   5.22% |  36.84% |
| 39   | Celesteela         |   17 |   4.67% |  64.71% |
| 40   | Cyclohm            |   16 |   4.40% |  68.75% |
| 41   | Jumbao             |   15 |   4.12% |  26.67% |
| 42   | Magnezone          |   14 |   3.85% |  42.86% |
| 42   | Revenankh          |   14 |   3.85% |  35.71% |
| 44   | Slowking           |   13 |   3.57% |  38.46% |
| 45   | Volcarona          |   11 |   3.02% |  54.55% |
| 45   | Tyranitar          |   11 |   3.02% |  54.55% |
| 45   | Hippowdon          |   11 |   3.02% |  45.45% |
| 45   | Miasmaw            |   11 |   3.02% |  27.27% |
| 49   | Kerfluffle         |   10 |   2.75% |  30.00% |
| 49   | Nihilego           |   10 |   2.75% |  30.00% |
| 51   | Mandibuzz          |    9 |   2.47% |  66.67% |
| 51   | Arctozolt          |    9 |   2.47% |  55.56% |
| 51   | Fidgit             |    9 |   2.47% |  44.44% |
| 51   | Syclant            |    9 |   2.47% |  44.44% |
| 51   | Hawlucha           |    9 |   2.47% |  33.33% |
| 56   | Rillaboom          |    8 |   2.20% |  62.50% |
| 56   | Volkraken          |    8 |   2.20% |  37.50% |
| 56   | Pelipper           |    8 |   2.20% |  37.50% |
| 56   | Barraskewda        |    8 |   2.20% |  37.50% |
| 60   | Reuniclus          |    7 |   1.92% |  42.86% |
| 60   | Necrozma           |    7 |   1.92% |  42.86% |
| 60   | Gastrodon          |    7 |   1.92% |  28.57% |
| 60   | Necturna           |    7 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 64   | Volcanion          |    6 |   1.65% |  66.67% |
| 64   | Tapu Bulu          |    6 |   1.65% |  66.67% |
| 64   | Hatterene          |    6 |   1.65% |  50.00% |
| 64   | Regieleki          |    6 |   1.65% |  33.33% |
| 64   | Mollux             |    6 |   1.65% |  16.67% |
| 69   | Aegislash          |    5 |   1.37% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Plasmanta          |    5 |   1.37% |  40.00% |
| 69   | Zapdos-Galar       |    5 |   1.37% |  40.00% |
| 69   | Crucibelle         |    5 |   1.37% |   0.00% |
| 73   | Swampert           |    4 |   1.10% |  75.00% |
| 73   | Scizor             |    4 |   1.10% |  25.00% |
| 73   | Chansey            |    4 |   1.10% |  25.00% |
| 73   | Krilowatt          |    4 |   1.10% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Victini            |    3 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Blaziken           |    3 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Terrakion          |    3 |   0.82% |  66.67% |
| 77   | Marowak-Alola      |    3 |   0.82% |  33.33% |
| 77   | Aurumoth           |    3 |   0.82% |  33.33% |
| 77   | Cresselia          |    3 |   0.82% |  33.33% |
| 77   | Mew                |    3 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Bisharp            |    2 |   0.55% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Dwebble            |    2 |   0.55% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Dhelmise           |    2 |   0.55% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Mamoswine          |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Nidoking           |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Quagsire           |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Naviathan          |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Primarina          |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Snaelstrom         |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Venusaur           |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Torkoal            |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Jirachi            |    2 |   0.55% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Excadrill          |    2 |   0.55% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Kitsunoh           |    2 |   0.55% |   0.00% |
| 84   | Tomohawk           |    2 |   0.55% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Umbreon            |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Steelix            |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Grookey            |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Smokomodo          |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Shedinja           |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Skarmory           |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Ditto              |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Voodoom            |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Latios             |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Snorlax            |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Porygon2           |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Stakataka          |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Gengar             |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Caribolt           |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Dracozolt          |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Azumarill          |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Avalugg            |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Kommo-o            |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Cobalion           |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Raichu-Alola       |    1 |   0.27% |   0.00% |

 

[kunchi]

| 31 | Stratagem | 26 | 7.14% | 57.69% |

God is dead and we killed him.

 

[dex]

God is dead and we killed him.

 

[Porpoise]

So I don't check in on meta trends super often and I'm not a high level player by any means (don't play in tours, been stable around 1300 on the ladder for the last month or so) but I just noticed that Tomohawk was unranked in VRs? What happened there?
(Also why is the low-ladder nearly exclusively the unranked CAPmons, occasional books, and Pyroak. Like just about every team has a Snaelstrom.)

 

[dex]

So I don't check in on meta trends super often and I'm not a high level player by any means (don't play in tours, been stable around 1300 on the ladder for the last month or so) but I just noticed that Tomohawk was unranked in VRs? What happened there?
(Also why is the low-ladder nearly exclusively the unranked CAPmons, occasional books, and Pyroak. Like just about every team has a Snaelstrom.)

Tomohawk had a lot of things go wrong for it as the metagame progressed. It used to be one of the best physdef walls out there during the urshifu-s metagame, but the introduction of venomicon and the trend towards offensive play, particularly with breakers that beat it like Tapu Koko and Galarian Zapdos, makes Tomohawk difficult to justify. It also straight up loses to both Zapdos and Tornadus-T, both of which are some of the most common Pokémon out there.

As to why you see so much unviable stuff on ladder, most tournament players don’t play on ladder, so the teams there rarely if ever mirror what viable tournament teams look like.

 

[spoo]

Yeah, echoing what dex said about tomo; if you look at the VR, there just aren’t many top tier breakers that tomo reliably beats, and there’s still usually a different mon (Buzzwole, Zapdos, etc) that beats the same mons better. Competition has been really hard for it lately.

I think the main reason low ladder is so bad is because there are a lot of people who just want to try out the CAPs in battle and nothing more. Obviously this is totally fine, but yeah, some people see the CAP mons in the teambuilder and go “woah, cool” so they put 6 of them on a team and load a game up. Some of our least viable CAPs also have really popular designs so that might be why you see those specifically spammed.

 

[Brown4Sides]

What do people think about Saharaja so far?

Here are a few early takeaways I have noticed:

• Swords Dance + Rapid Spin sets are popular
• Camel can be ran with a secondary Ground type
• Serene Grace is much worse than Water Absorb, because without Water Absorb you completely fudge the Tapu Fini matchup

I also haven't given up on Assault Vest yet.

 

[dex]

Camel has this interesting effect right now of really freeing the builder up by not forcing you to run Landorus-T on 70% of teams. I don't doubt that Saharaja is good with Landorus-T, but it is a much more viable alternative as a defensive Ground than the other options (barring defensive chomp on offense teams). I think it does pair pretty well with other Grounds too; offensive Garchomp, for instance, appreciates Camel taking some of the defensive responsibilities allotted to Ground-types. Right now, I do think Swords Dance + Rapid Spin is its best set, as it, like Venomicon, provides a nice mixture of defensive and offensive attributes. Fully specially defensive with Pain Split probably has some use as well on balance. Serene Grace is never going to get used outside of meme ladder sets. Water Absorb simply provides too much value in the face of Tapu Fini, Slowbro, rain, etc. I don't think I could ever see myself dropping Water Absorb. As for Assault Vest, I doubt it will ever be good on Saharaja. Saharaja values its HP more than most Pokemon, and Leftovers are actually quite valuable (to the point where Knock Off is a pretty good Saharaja deterrent). Leaving Saharaja recovery-less is not worth the added bulk, and it probably leaves it more quickly overrun than without Assault Vest.

 

[Zetalz]

On the subject of double Ground I've found Raja + Libra to be a pretty fun combo. Pairing them can make it difficult for your opponent to consistently check both at once and frees up Raja to be more offensive without compromising your bulky Ground backbone. Libra is also just great atm with Raja being everywhere as it handles any sets not running Grass move + SD very well.

Serene Grace is a complete noob trap, don't fall for it lol. Even if you want to do Body Press shenanigans (which are not great) you're still better off using WA.

I really like the variety of sets Raja can use atm. SpDef utility or SpDef SD are both very viable, and offensive SD has pretty flexible 3rd atk options. Rapid Spin is the clear easiest and probably strongest option but Horn Leech is very good to keep Raja topped off so it can still function as a switch-in late-game, hell even Sucker Punch is a viable pick to lure things that would force out Spin Raja, or just offensive raja in general like Blace or Syclant.

Honestly love this mon it's made SS a hell of a lot more fun to both build and play. Now we just gotta nerf Roak and it'll be perfect c:

 

[shnowshner]

So far these are the common (good) Saharaja sets I've encountered:

1. SD + Spin: easily the most terrifying set late-game if your team lacks a solid check. Multiple ways to force things out and continue snowballing, whether its a Diamond Storm boost or the Speed from Rapid Spin. However, this is also the set with some of the hardest answers: Libra is practically a lost cause, Argh is often an issue, Buzz can definitely outlast you (especially if running Toxic/Bulk Up), and in general a lot more stuff has the ability to cripple you before going down or taking a huge chunk of HP like Rotom or Lando.
2. Defensive Pain Spit: I have not seen as much as this one recently but it is by no means bad, Pain Split allows Raja to keep its HP high which is super valuable on it, and having an option to "damage" stuff that can otherwise be an issue is nice. StormQuake is still nasty coverage even when not invested or boosted and Spin is always a great asset to have.
3. SD Three Attacks: Being able to bypass usual checks thanks to Grass coverage (whip for power or horn leech for sustain) is huge honestly, though sacrificing Rapid Spin in the process means this has both less utility and sweeping potential, making offensive checks like Syclant or Kartana a lot more troublesome.
4. Spin Three Attacks: Sorta the reverse situation here, Spin can invalidate some faster checks but without SD a lot of fatter stuff can just sit on you, and getting burned by stray Fire moves or a hard Flame Body read is pretty much a death sentence compared to being somewhat salvageable with SD.

Best items so far are Leftovers and Life Orb. The former I shouldn't have to explain, bulky Ground and all that. Life Orb is neat for teams looking to make use of Raja's inherently strong offensive capabilities and can pick up surprise KOs on an opponent not expecting it. Discussion has picked up on Yache/Lum Berry but as of now I have not seen much of either.

EV spreads have a lot of variety and you can mix-and-match them pretty easy all things considered. SD + Spin can run either full offensive or Max HP Max SpDef depending on what the team needs or user prefers. Zeta had posted a spread of 92 HP / 248 Atk / 16 SpD / 152 Spe Jolly that looks quite good, you exchange some Attack from the usual Adamant 252/252 set but gain a bit of extra bulk, which can go a long way honestly, and Raja has no issue patching up its Attack with SD. Having a decent Attack stat uninvested + high BP moves, Fini's Special Bulk, and a useful Speed tier goes a long way in letting you custom-tailor what you want Raja to do.

Outside of the moves listed above, I've seen Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, Sucker Punch, and Stealth Rock used to decent success, but they're definitely a fair bit rarer just by nature of how this mon likes to play and the unique attributes it brings you primarily want to focus on.

It is still early to call out anything problematic as we adjust to Saharaja's impact on the meta, the mon is extremely solid and has definitely shaken up how you need to build teams, as the SD sets are very nasty to face if you aren't prepared for them. There's some extraneous stuff I think could be removed so counterplay is more consistent but its not a dire situation. With CAPPL literally right around the corner we'll have plenty of data and experience to look at in terms of what our next course of action should be. As it stands, having access to both Swords Dance and Rapid Spin is a bit overwhelming to check in the builder, but both are also what allows Raja to be both a strong pick and open new avenues for teambuilding that honestly were not around before, so I'm not really sold on either going at this point.

 

[KataphraktoiUntaken]

I think the main reason low ladder is so bad is because there are a lot of people who just want to try out the CAPs in battle and nothing more. Obviously this is totally fine, but yeah, some people see the CAP mons in the teambuilder and go “woah, cool” so they put 6 of them on a team and load a game up. Some of our least viable CAPs also have really popular designs so that might be why you see those specifically spammed.

This is just the drive by opinion of someone who rarely posts on the site and only plays ladder, but I do find it quite dissapointing the VR ranks are filled with bog standard OU pokes. My initial inclination was to build a team using only CAP mons and this did fine against others doing the same, or atleast only running the omnipresent Lando-T, which to be honest I also included on my initial teams. Anyway the metagame seems pretty fun or atleast the odd low-ladder version I am playing.

 

[singaporygon]

This is just the drive by opinion of someone who rarely posts on the site and only plays ladder, but I do find it quite dissapointing the VR ranks are filled with bog standard OU pokes. My initial inclination was to build a team using only CAP mons and this did fine against others doing the same, or atleast only running the omnipresent Lando-T, which to be honest I also included on my initial teams. Anyway the metagame seems pretty fun or atleast the odd low-ladder version I am playing.

One way I think about this, is about the history when these past CAPs were made.
They were made to help fix issues with past OU metas, where the power / mons-to-cover was lower than current OU.

It's sort of like how Snorlax was easily a top tier OU mon in a couple OU metas back in the day, but now is a NU mon.
I mean yeah you can try and use a NU team in current OU for the fun of it, but you'll only get so far.

Essentially changes to OU happen alot faster than new CAPs can be made.
Also a CAP isn't going to be made for the sake of it, and it's usually made to provide something that no existing OU mons can provide.

Now, if there were enough people playing ladder, maybe there could be a CAP "UU" that could be like only mons B- rank and lower can be used, and the older CAPs would shine more in this. But the main issue is there aren't enough people playing ladder.

My suggestion for now, is if you always want to use at least one CAP, is to aim to only build around 2-4 CAPs. And be careful you aren't using too many low viability CAPs on the same team especially if one of the CAPs is like B-/C rank or unranked.

Anyways, I can totally see where you're coming from though. Hope you stick around and try to find enjoyment in thinking more about CAP as OU+.

 

[quziel]

Yo, I'd like to discuss a few things within the CAP meta, specifically well, the books.

Base book definitely can feel a bit suffocating when building and playing cause its very rarely out of the game, very rarely in a matchup where it can't threaten a win, and has the ability to completely stonewall teams with a little support. Atha vs Snaga [1] is a great example of this, where book gets knocked early, is facing a SD Camel (this mon does very well into it, and is imo a bit OP itself), Encore Astrolotl, and a Tapu Koko, and still nearly manages to win the game.

Now, that's not to say it has purely fantastic games. Fogbound vs Ausma [2] is an example of it being relatively constrained much of the game (Hurricane Sux), showing its mediocre matchup into mons such as Zapdos, Camel, and Slowking-Galar, however you can argue this team is overprepped for Venom-P. Similarly, it has a rather low impact in Jonfilch vs Omicorio [3], although you can see the impact Stamina has on the matchup, as Weavile is forced to go for a Swords Dance rather than just attack it despite being at "+0" (burned and +2). Potatochan vs Astralydia [4] also shows the mon's main weakness. While Stamina can let it trade excellently vs a lot of the meta, if it gets low, its very likely to stay there. Venom is forced down to 15% using a mixture of Sand chip, and being forced to 1v1 a Camel, and thanks to Potatochan having a Tapu Lele, its unable to heal up again and potentially win.

[1] Atha vs Snaga, Week 4, SSCAP, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8cap-641430
[2] Fogbound Lake vs Ausma, Week 3, SSCAP, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8cap-639851
[3] Jonfilch vs Omicorio, Week 2, Bo3, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8cap-637944
[4] Potatochan vs Astralydia, Week 2, SSCAP, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8cap-1617987349

Ebook's a bit more simple, setup moves on Tinted Lens are sorta very, very strong, and the mon's still got an excellent speed tier even if its power was heavily docked by the PPL. Its power / ability to sorta cheese through what would otherwise be checks is shown best in Jonfilch vs Crying [5], where it manages to set up vs a Melmetal (clicking Coil on the switch), thanks to the defense boosts giving it just enough bulk to successfully PP stall Double Iron Bash.

[5] Jonfilch vs Crying, Bo3, Week 1, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8cap-636476

Would like opinions on these two.