Sylveon [QC: 0/3]

Alphanex20 said:
I'd think about psyshock, it lets you beat Mega Venusaur (who can otherwise wall you) and other sylveons well enough, and being mixed (technically) could never hurt.
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Actually.. that flower dinosaur has been pretty annoying with its Seed/Synthesis set ._. As for other Sylveons, against Defensive Sylveons (who tend to run Bold nature mostly with 252 Def), Hyper Voice deals more damage.

+1 252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Psyshock is interesting though, does it do anything but hit Poison-types though?
 
Toxicosis said:
Psyshock is interesting though, does it do anything but hit Poison-types though?
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In my experience, no. However, Mega Venusaur is a huge threat so it does have some merit.

However, I was able to test the BP set the past few days, and it has been added! QC checks? :)
 
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Regarding the Calm Mind set, why not use RestTalk instead of Wish/Protect? It gives the additional benefit of being able to set up on status, plus mono-Hyper Voice is still good coverage. RestTalk was mentioned in the cleric set but I think it deserves a separate set since it plays more like CroCune than a cleric.

For reference, I've been using:

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spd
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Of course I don't think it's a replacement for CroCune since it's definitely not as bulky on the physical side. I just think it's a viable option from what I've tried of it.
 
I've been using the physically defensive set with Hyper Voice / Wish / Protect / Baton Pass or Heal Bell and it is terrific. Sylveon can tank anything on either side but very powerful STAB moves (Chomp Quake, LO Ninja). I still can't decide which I like more, BP or HB, as both have their merits. The suggested spread stops Conkeldurr, Lati@s and other random non-Chomp, non-Zard dragons cold in their tracks. Latias with Calm Mind could be a problem but I am yet to see one. Conkeldurr is admitedly still annoying as it will Knock Off your Leftovers but that is all it can do.

It is worth of note that Sylveon is slow enough that Baton Pass goes after all relevant users of VoltTurn, such as Genesect, Rotom-W, Landorus(-T), Thundurus(-T), Tornadus(-T), Greninja, Talonflame and Scizor (not that you should be staying in against these last two). Even though you risk a strong STAB, I think only Bullet Punch can KO a healthy Sylveon (can't do calcs right now) and you bring an appropriate counter safely.

Ironically, Heatran is a great partner, absorbing both Will-o-Wisp, Toxic and Steel and Poison type attacks and, you guessed, Rotom-W takes on the physical attackers that give the former two problems (Lando, Pinsir, Chomp, Bisharp). Still soft to Greninja and Keldeo but oh well.

Edit:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 220-261 (56.1 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 383-452 (97.7 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 306-360 (78 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 224-266 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 450-530 (114.7 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sylveon is a goddamned champ.
 
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i tried resttalk cm a bit and it is a beast. i would rather cm get a set of it own with resttalk than keep cm on the main set and clutter it with resttalk -- do that. dealing with status is big.
 
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Jukain said:
i tried resttalk cm a bit and it is a beast. i would rather cm get a set of it own with resttalk than keep cm on the main set and clutter it with resttalk -- do that. dealing with status is big.
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i don't really see the point of resttalk+cm when magic guard clefable exists. clefable can do the whole "laugh at status" thing without having to rely on resttalk, not to mention all of the other forms of passive damage it ignores such as sandstorm and leech seed. also, since it only has to expend one moveslot on recovery, it has room for a coverage move.
 
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 138-164 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 192-228 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pixilate Hyper Voice guarantees a 2HKO on AV Goodra at +1 while Moonblast fails to do so. It's more powerful so Sylveon doesn't really have to rely on coverage to dent resists after a few CMs. I think it's enough to distinguish it from Clefable.
 
While my opinion on Calm Mind (and Sylveon) has changed since I've started this analysis (i VASTLY underestimated Pixelate), I don't think RestTalk + CM has any merit over Clefable if its major boon is to get around status moves.

I can still test it, of course, but I don't have high expectations.
 
deepbluejeer said:
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 138-164 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 192-228 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pixilate Hyper Voice guarantees a 2HKO on AV Goodra at +1 while Moonblast fails to do so. It's more powerful so Sylveon doesn't really have to rely on coverage to dent resists after a few CMs. I think it's enough to distinguish it from Clefable.
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goodra is setup bait anyway, 2HKOing it is meaningless.
 
After more testing with the BP set, I have concluded that, overall... Echoed Voice > Hyper Voice!

It's super easy to get speed + defense boosts passed to her, and after that she can either choose to safely Calm Mind or spam Echoed Voice as it reaches max BP. The Baton Passing style thrives on buildup anyway, and it's overall been the superior option in my experience.

Is there anything else the Skeleton is missing? I think I've addressed all of the proposed sets one way or another. :O
 
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Doesn't Echoed Voice break its chain once you use something like Wish or Calm Mind? Unless you're basically maxed out and ready to roll, Echoed Voice would be pretty darn weak as you try to hit things while boosting. I'm not certain, though, since you've tested it and think it's better than Hyper Voice.
 
Well, personally from the way I see it, Echoed Voice is more of a wallbreaking/sweeping move, while Hyper Voice is something used to deal damage short term. Leftovers/Pixie Plate pairs better with Echoed Voice, Specs/LO goes nicely with Hyper Voice
 
Toxicosis said:
Well, personally from the way I see it, Echoed Voice is more of a wallbreaking/sweeping move, while Hyper Voice is something used to deal damage short term. Leftovers/Pixie Plate pairs better with Echoed Voice, Specs/LO goes nicely with Hyper Voice
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I agree! However, I don't like Life Orb -- Sylveon is too slow. :\

Fuzznip said:
Doesn't Echoed Voice break its chain once you use something like Wish or Calm Mind? Unless you're basically maxed out and ready to roll, Echoed Voice would be pretty darn weak as you try to hit things while boosting. I'm not certain, though, since you've tested it and think it's better than Hyper Voice.
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Check out this post in Sylveon's general thread, it articulates my feelings / experience with the move: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sylveon.3489921/page-18#post-5184059
 
Overall, they're both viable in my experience. I guess it just depends on the player, and whether they feel they need a secondary sweeper incase an Espeon sweep doesn't pan out. Hyper Voice is just as good for those that want Sylveon to do damage throughout the match rather than sweep at the end.

And it was more for the explanation, not necessarily the replay. :s
 
The Great Gastly said:
Overall, they're both viable in my experience. I guess it just depends on the player, and whether they feel they need a secondary sweeper incase an Espeon sweep doesn't pan out. Hyper Voice is just as good for those that want Sylveon to do damage throughout the match rather than sweep at the end.

And it was more for the explanation, not necessarily the replay. :s
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The big thing I find is that you need to hit 3 consecutive Echoed Voice in order to deal similar total damage (90+90+90 < 40+80+160), I'd say more often than not, I'd find that having the freedom to switch up moves is way more valuable.
 
Fuzznip said:
Okay, I'm fine with Echoed Voice being in OO or whatever, but I also would like to see a Choice Scarf Sylveon set that has Echoed Voice as one of the main moves. I've personally been swept by it because I underestimated its power, and I and my friend have used it with good success. You can probably do something like:

Echoed Voice
Hyper Voice
Hidden Power Fire
Baton Pass / Heal Bell

Max SpA and Spe with a Timid nature, of course.
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Add this set. I tested it out, and it works really nicely. Put it third, before BP. After that is squared away I will approve, this analysis is really good (Sylveon is the best ^_^).
 
All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. The Great Gastly, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
 
This is how the Specs set should be imo:

Choice Specs
########
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hyper Voice
move 2: Psyshock
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Echoed Voice
ability: Pixilate
item: Choice Specs
evs: 132 HP / 252 SAtk / 124 Spd

Enough Speed to outrun and 2HKO 252 HP Mega Scizor after SR ~60% of the time after SR with Hyper Voice. Hyper Voice already 2HKOes (Mega) Scizor and Skarmory so i don't see any reason for HP Fire to be in the main set, a 'Moves' mention is fine, to OHKO Scizor and 2HKO Ferrothorn. Hidden Power Ground is the first option on the last slot to 2HKO SpD Heatran and OHKO offensive Heatran, a Pokemon that would otherwise check or wall you. Echoed Voice is very useful against defensive teams with Chansey and Baton Pass teams without Mr.Mime, as it quickly builds up damage and punishes any team that can't do much immediate damage to Sylveon. Baton Pass is fine for 'Moves' but HP Ground and Echoed Voice have much more utility overall.
 
Magnemite said:
All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. The Great Gastly, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
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Magnemite

Oh god, I completely forgot I was doing an analysis! Should I just begin the write-up? The skeleton is basically completed, but I don't have any QC checks... regardless, I'm able start writing now.

Also, I haven't been able to test the Scarf set so someone else would have to do the write-up for it -- my apologies for that.

alexwolf

I've added those changes -- I don't oppose any of them! :)
 
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Yeah, just write it up now. It's alright in its current form, and you really only need one set for the placeholder, it doesn't need to be exhaustive since it will be replaced by the complete one when that goes up. Just write it ASAP and send it to darkie.
 
Yuri said:
Ironically, Heatran is a great partner, absorbing both Will-o-Wisp, Toxic and Steel and Poison type attacks and, you guessed, Rotom-W takes on the physical attackers that give the former two problems (Lando, Pinsir, Chomp, Bisharp). Still soft to Greninja and Keldeo but oh well.
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Sylveon takes on greninja and Keldeo VERY well, neither can OHKO it (or 2HKO, in non-specs keldeo's case) and both are wiped out nuked by hyper voice. Not to mention Sylveon manhandles Kyurem-B who gives rotom and heatran fits (OHKOed even behind a sub and barely 3HKOs you). SubTran is especially nice for taking on mega venus (if you are EVed to outspeed it tho). If all else fails you could go with a Mega Venusaur of your own or a ferrothorn for the FWG synergy (and leech seeding all the things + wish support means you will never die).
 
Sylveon can only tank Keldeo and Greninja if it is the specially defensive variant. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon takes a buttload from them. Also, 244 HP / 252 Def Bold Sylveon still takes 40%+ from Life Orb Latios' Psyshock so it isn't a hardcounter.

Still, the Sylveon/Heatran/Venusaur core is pretty good but you still have to watch out for Pinsir, etc., and some Latios. Zapdos and Rotom-W fullfill that role well.
 
I think this needs a new home. But fuck jukain getting it lol. I should swipe it so he doesnt get his precious.

I kid.

One minor change is if Scarf is staying Psyshock should probably be used before Hidden Power Fire. Sylveon is an okay lure to Mega Venusaur and, to a lesser extent, Tentacruel.
 
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