Pokémon Talonflame

[S0L1D G0LD]

No, the point is, Bulk Up is boosting your Defense anyways, wouldn't you rather make it bulky on both sides? CM users run 252 HP / 252 Def, it would be the opposite for BU users.

Right, although I would split the ev's among Hp sdef and attack if I using bulk up.

 

[Thorhammer]

Right, although I would split the ev's among Hp sdef and attack if I using bulk up.

Splitting EVs tends to not end well. Bulk Up should already get it the power it needs, and it needs those EVs to not die if poked by a special move.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Splitting EVs tends to not end well. Bulk Up should already get it the power it needs, and it needs those EVs to not die if poked by a special move.

And by splitting ev's I meant small investments in attack to land more ko's after different numbers of bulk ups. And I suppose I brought that upon myself for not making myself clearer, yet somehow I knew someone would argue this.

 

[Thorhammer]

And by splitting ev's I meant small investments in attack to land more ko's after different numbers of bulk ups. And I suppose I brought that upon myself for not making myself clearer, yet somehow I knew someone would argue this.

That's fair enough; if anyone has any specific numbers in mind it could be worth going for. Although Speed could be more worthwhile; less than 60 EVs lets you get outsped by Jolly Excadrill, which is no fun to tangle with. Or just changing the nature to Jolly while leaving the EVs in SpD? That'd reach 316 Spe while keeping most of its SpD.

 

[GeneralMLD]

Not training Speed makes Talonflame increasingly reliant on Brave Bird to kill things and ineffective against things it would need Flare Blitz to hurt. Jolly Excadrill, for one, can take a Brave Bird and kill a slow Talonflame with Rock Slide before it can use Flare Blitz. This is on top of it becoming far more vulnerable to priority: Talonflame's advantage is not just super-powerful priority but also super-fast priority.

Would you recommend EVs like 252 Atk and 128 Spd, 128 HP? Or all Speed?

 

[Scorpiopt]

been thinking talonflame is walled by gliscor , HP ice should hurt gliscor a lot?
Edit uppon testing yeah HP ice is great
'

 

[Schpoonman]

From what I've gathered Rotom-W and Heatran wall Talonflame consistently, but Rotom-W has poor HP, Heatran is susceptible to being trapped by Dugtrio, and neither of them have actually reliable recovery. Are there any other Pokemon that might work?

 

[Style_Dota]

From what I've gathered Rotom-W and Heatran wall Talonflame consistently, but Rotom-W has poor HP, Heatran is susceptible to being trapped by Dugtrio, and neither of them have actually reliable recovery. Are there any other Pokemon that might work?

Rest Chesto Rotom has no issues at all being able to handle Talonflame, especially due to its SR weakness. However, Tyranitar is also another solid counter to Talonflame.

 

[Scorpiopt]

Landorus , Dragonite and Salamence , since Talonflame is a revenge and late game killer and i find a lot of people keeping gliscor alive for that reason jut to wall it

 

[Gary]

From what I've gathered Rotom-W and Heatran wall Talonflame consistently, but Rotom-W has poor HP, Heatran is susceptible to being trapped by Dugtrio, and neither of them have actually reliable recovery. Are there any other Pokemon that might work?

Rotom-H is also a fantastic check to Talonflame, and isn't even phazed by the somewhat rare Will-O-Wisp variants. It's in the same boat as Rotom-W though due to its low HP and reliance Pain Split (PokeBank) to get back health, but the ChestoRest sets are still solid counters. Tyranitar is one of the best Talonflame counters out there because it takes little damage from both of its STAB moves, and Mega Tyranitar's massive Defensive stat makes Talonflame basically set up fodder. Problem is, Tyranitar is also trapped by Dugtrio. Gliscor is somewhat decent at walling Talonflame, but only the max HP/Def variants can avoid the 2HKO from a CB Brave Bird or Blitz, so it must be careful. Tyrantrum doesn't necessarily wall it, but it resits both of its STAB moves, has a high defensive stat, and can setup Stealth Rock in its face. Other than that, there really aren't too many reliable counters to Talonflame unless you want to start venturing into the depths of the old BW2 tiers, where you'll find Regirock, Gigalith, and Golem, but those are all highly irrelevant. Just shows how terrifying Talonflame is. I've found that the only proper ways of handling Talonflame if you're not choosing to use any of the Pokemon listed above, is through revenge killing and SR. It's just really hard to wall it properly.

 

[alexwolf]

Both specially defensive Talonflame and utility Talonflame are great sets. I am talking about those two btw:

name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Brave Bird
move 3: Roost
move 4: Substitute / Will-O-Wisp
ability: Gale Wings
item: Leftovers
evs: 212 HP / 236 SpD / 60 Spe<br />
nature: Careful

name: Utility
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Roost
move 4: Will-O-Wisp
ability: Gale Wings
item: Leftovers
evs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe<br />
nature: Adamant


The Bulk Up set is difficult to take down once it gets going, and if your checks are worn down or dead you are fucked. Common checks such as Rotom-W are not reliable anymore, as Volt Switch fails to break the Sub of a roosting Talonflame with this spread, and you can also PP stall rock moves from physical attackers such as Tyranitar and Mega Aggron. WoW fucks up Pokemon that rely on physical attacks to take down Talonflame even more but leaves Talonflame susceptible to status.

The Utility set is great at being a dick in general, with enough Speed to outrun Jolly Excadrill and neutral base 100s, such as Mega Kangaskhan. Spreads burns, has a fast Taunt, checks many Pokemon with its good typing and ok bulk (with the investment), and has strong priority too, as well as priority Roost. What's not to like? Taunt is also great for SpD Heatran, which can't set up SR and use Toxic or Roar anymore, meaning that it loses one on one against Talonflame, as long as it lacks Earth Power. A bulkier spread can be used according to your team's needs, but strong priority is invaluable. With max HP and SpD it is also a great check to choiced Genesect.

 

[Ryolain]

You don't end up getting walled by Steels without Flare Blitz? Do you just stall them out with WoW damage or rely on healing up while whittling them down with resisted BBs?

 

[alexwolf]

You don't end up getting walled by Steels without Flare Blitz? Do you just stall them out with WoW damage or rely on healing up while whittling them down with resisted BBs?

1. Steel types not named Heatran never switch into Talonflame
2. Steel-types are burned with WoW, and get slowly stalled out while you use Roost or Taunt

 

[Punchshroom]

Not to mention a good majority of Steels cannot actually do much back to Talonflame (though these usually don't even resist Flying), especially bulky boosting Talonflame. Skarmory can phase out Talonflame, but I pack Taunt over Substitute for that very reason without drastically affecting any already favorable matchups.

 

[Dude Bro 420]

I wanted to share the most effective revenge killing Talonflame set I have used from my experience.

Talon and Flame (Mixed Talonflame)
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Overheat
- U-turn / Swords Dance / Tailwind

The advantage of this set is that it can hit things with less recoil if needed, and it can 2HKO many switch-ins that would otherwise stop Talonflame short of a 3HKO such as Gliscor and other physically defensive Pokemon. When you have taken out your opponents most obvious defenses to Talonflame, or you are trying to complete a sweep where recoil damage adds up, Talonflame appreciates a STAB and Life Orb boosted Overheat more than an average filler move more times than not. And because Talonflame uses Overheat for utility more than for a main means of attacking, Talonflame does not mind the SpA recoil in most cases.

Most people who see Talonflame will throw their Physical wall at it if they don't have something like Rotom-W that resists its STABs. Many of those walls who don't resist Fire do not enjoy an Overheat to the face.

This set ultimately acknowledges that this Pokemon is frail and has terrible defensive typing in order to optimize the effectiveness of revenge killing. No Roost because who the hell allows Talonflame to live very long?

The last slot is still a bit of a toss-up. U-Turn is nice for momentum but gets Life Orb recoil, Swords Dance is risky but rewarding if a switch can safely be predicted, Tailwind is a nice support move that serves it well with priority if you know it is probably going to die without doing much damage with Brave Bird.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't think flying gem is a huge deal

Even when both were available, I found acrobatics to be too weak and very much favored brave bird anyway.

My preferred set is Choice Band, which also obviously plays better with BB

 

[Pistol]

The definitive best Talonflame counter not in Ubers is Regirock. 80/200/100 defenses and resisting both STABs means even +6 Talonflame with Sky Plate has AT BEST a 4HKO chance. With prevalent Tyranitar he honestly isn't a bad choice on a team if you go full defense or use an Assault Vest in the sand for crazy good SpD as well. He has tons of high BP moves, Drain Punch, Curse, and RestTalk. Clear Body also means he doesn't fear Intimidate users. Impish 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Df really gives you great mixed bulk and the attack you needs to 2-3HKO many important threats. He's actually pretty good if you give him a shot. Definitely advise trying the Assault Vest set with Sand somewhere.

Jaroda, I don't know you but I love you right now. Ever since I replaced Tyranitar on my team with Regirock I have raped every team with Talonflame on it. You guys, this is genius stuff right here. People simple just don't expect it, people don't know what to do you when you send out a Regirock. Its like people have never heard of him before. He can tank almost any super effective hit with the Assault Vest too. Regirock is awesome. Its too bad that you cannot get him in XY at the moment.

 

[AOPSUser]

Jaroda, I don't know you but I love you right now. Ever since I replaced Tyranitar on my team with Regirock I have raped every team with Talonflame on it. You guys, this is genius stuff right here. People simple just don't expect it, people don't know what to do you when you send out a Regirock. Its like people have never heard of him before. He can tank almost any super effective hit with the Assault Vest too. Regirock is awesome. Its too bad that you cannot get him in XY at the moment.

Everyone's heard of Regirock, but no one knows his stats. :P Also just analyzing my current team, I have like one thing that can 2HKO Regirock and that's Mega Gengar. Too bad Regirock lacks recovery other than Rest though, and Assault Vest is...meh, since you don't get Rest or Leftovers. Unless you're into dedicated WishPass Blissey but Mega Gengar really kills that, especially post-Bank.

You can say Talonflame gets *shades* rockblocked. (ugh that was terrible)

 

[Elred]

1. Steel types not named Heatran never switch into Talonflame

I don't know, I've been running a team centered around a (somewhat gimmick I'll admit) Scarf Metagross, and I feel comfortable switching on a Talonflame given the fact I run Rockslide (it's barely like Metagross has any other options for a choice set right now). Most of my opponents think I'm stupid when I do that though. I'm still currently researching if Scarfgross can be viable somewhat this gen. So far it can work against most of its common checks. But yeah as a general rule, you're right, you don't put steels in front of that bird.

 

[farranpoison]

I think this thing should be banned in OU. Priority 120 STAB BP, what were they thinking.

And piss-poor defenses and takes massive recoil every time it hits something due to its low HP stat. And, 4x weak to Stealth Rock.

There's a reason why this thing is called "suicidal bird."

 

[Kakimori]

Still, there's no denying that Talonflame is THE most centralizing force in the metagame right now. Certainly not as bad as Excadrill or Genesect were in the past, but EVERY team that's worth its salt is running something directly for it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Agreed.

Though the measures taken to deal with Talonflame are significantly less than that of previous metagame tyrants. At this point, every team worth their salt should have a 2 checks to Talonflame, minimum.

 

[kapao]

I have a question. I have been reading about Taloflame for a while now.
Does Barbaracle make a good check for him?
72/115/86
he resists fire 4x and flying 2x.
And he can get OHKO by STAB boosted Stone Miss or Rock Slide.
Then can setup with shell smash right after.

 

[Olly]

Still, there's no denying that Talonflame is THE most centralizing force in the metagame right now. Certainly not as bad as Excadrill or Genesect were in the past, but EVERY team that's worth its salt is running something directly for it.

Imo Mega Kangaskhan is the most centralising force in the metagame. Mega Kangaskhan only has 1 possible slot on a team and I would guess it's on around 50% of teams right now. Everyone is running at least one what they hope is a counter to it. It's also induced all kinds of gimmicky Rocky Helmet shenanigans that I'm pretty sure are solely down to Mega Kangaskhan.

Talonflame while good, is just another threat to consider. It's not like people are running gimmicky stuff to deal with him. Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Heatran, all of which would be huge with or without Talonflame's presence. One of these 3 would be on the majority of people's teams regardless.

 

[marcoxx626]

I've had great success with this set

adamant/252 atk/252 Spe
gale wings
Item: leftovers

brave bird
flare blitz
roost
bulk up

I ran acrobatics for a bit but it just wasn't doing the job, so I swapped it for brave bird. Flare blitz is for steel types like mawile, scizor, etc and Roost is there because of the massive HP lost from both attacks. I also found it to be verrryyy useful against things like kangaskhan, mawile and other sucker punchers, basically giving me a free restore. If HP is already full or talonflame is no longer needed I use bulk up on predicted switches/statusmoves/suckerpunches and if going against a suckerpunch user you can usually roost next turn because they'll probably predict an attack (good time to use minds games). I saw a set above that only had attack moves which would get destroyed suckerpunch from kang or mawile.

After testing this set out I'll probably be replacing leftovers for life orb for that extra ohko potential.