Pokémon Talonflame

[TKGriffiths]

The set has roost instead of flare blitz and please tell me how is toxic heatran beating that set when it can just taunt it and setup in its face.

Lets remind ourselves of what I said earlier...."Inb4 you come up with some totally unreasonable set that beats Heatran but is sub-par against everything else." That's a terrible set and it still can't beat Heatran.

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 73-87 (24.4 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 222-262 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's how, if you Roost you die.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Lets remind ourselves of what I said earlier...."Inb4 you come up with some totally unreasonable set that beats Heatran but is sub-par against everything else." That's a terrible set and it still can't beat Heatran.

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 73-87 (24.4 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 222-262 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's how, if you Roost you die.

So by your logic bulk up talonflame is a terrible set but a defensive heatran that is running toxic and earth power instead of stealth rock and roar inst? Also wtf is 4 hp talonflame ?_?

 

[yuseifudo001]

shouldn't talonflame run with at least 164 speed-ev to outspeed max speed jirachi (timid/hasty/jolly/naive nature with 252 speed-ev, no scarf)? talonflame won't be able to outspeed that jirachi with 132 speed-ev.
(I calculated that all:
talonflame adamant 132 speed ev: 321
talonflame adamant 164 speed ev: 329
jirachi naive 252 speed ev: 328)

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Aegislash and excadrill aside, I'm starting to wonder if flare blitz is worth it over fire blast. You don't need any investment to nab the 2hkos and ohkos on steel types like skarmory, ferrothorn, scizor, and forretress with an adamant nature. And you don't needlessly whittle your hp either. I get why banded sets run flare blitz, but I don't really think it's worth it on anything else. You end up suiciding into something when you could have just kept talonflame alive and threatened more of your opponent's team.

Flare Blitz exploits its invested physical attack although it prevents Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet recoil. More importantly, 100% > 85%. Missing equal with Fire Blast could death. Fire Blast seems to be a gift to some Pokemon, especially those with a high special attack, that enables them to act as wall breakers, such as Hydreigon.

 

[BSMEforme]

Let's just agree that heatran is a solid counter for most talonflame sets. That's what teammates are for.

 

[Punchshroom]

Lets remind ourselves of what I said earlier...."Inb4 you come up with some totally unreasonable set that beats Heatran but is sub-par against everything else." That's a terrible set and it still can't beat Heatran.

4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 73-87 (24.4 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 222-262 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's how, if you Roost you die.

4 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. 208 HP / 240+ SpD Talonflame: 75-88 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 240+ SpD Talonflame: 150-178 (42.9 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 129-152 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 14.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's still a challenge for Bulk Up Talonflame to overcome, but Heatran isn't beating Talon easily either. Given that your Earth Power doesn't even override Roost + Leftovers recovery, and the fact that Talon can punish a mispredicted Earth Power with more Bulk Ups, and you can see that it is more of an uphill battle for Heatran than it is for Talon, especially given the former's lack of reliable recovery. (Btw, the set is Brave Bird / Bulk Up / Roost / Taunt, there is little need for Flare Blitz as killing Steels is much less of an urgency, in fact you want to keep them alive so you can set up)

Not denying that Heatran manhandles other Talonflame sets though, bar the gimmicky Natural Gift set.

 

[Tesung]

Although cb brave bird does up to 40% to offensive tran and 34% to spdef tran! and considering that heatran has no reliable recovery, is forced to check many threats throughout a game, (cough cough genesect), and is takes full spikes and rocks damage, heatran isn't nearly as big of problem as everyone's favorite washing machine, who unfortunately shits on every single set no matter what you try

 

[TKGriffiths]

4 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. 208 HP / 240+ SpD Talonflame: 75-88 (21.4 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 240+ SpD Talonflame: 150-178 (42.9 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 129-152 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 14.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's still a challenge for Bulk Up Talonflame to overcome, but Heatran isn't beating Talon easily either. Given that your Earth Power doesn't even override Roost + Leftovers recovery, and the fact that Talon can punish a mispredicted Earth Power with more Bulk Ups, and you can see that it is more of an uphill battle for Heatran than it is for Talon, especially given the former's lack of reliable recovery. (Btw, the set is Brave Bird / Bulk Up / Roost / Taunt, there is little need for Flare Blitz as killing Steels is much less of an urgency, in fact you want to keep them alive so you can set up)

Not denying that Heatran manhandles other Talonflame sets though, bar the gimmicky Natural Gift set.

That's exactly the kind of tailor-made to theoretically beat Heatran, bad against everything else set I was talking about earlier.

252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Scizor Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 221-260 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Scizor Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 328-390 (98.7 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

OMG Skarmory and Gyarados can't counter Scizor guys!

 

[Tressed]

That's exactly the kind of tailor-made to theoretically beat Heatran, bad against everything else set I was talking about earlier.

252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Scizor Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 221-260 (66.1 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Scizor Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 328-390 (98.7 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

OMG Skarmory and Gyarados can't counter Scizor guys!

Your arguments might be worth listening to if you actually told us why that set is bad instead of listing Scizor calcs. Consider Bulky DDNite last gen, was that a shitty set? No, all it needed was Skarmory gone. Talonflame is in a similar vein, although it doesn't have Multiscale, it does have priority Roost, Taunt, and excellent defensive typing. In a nutshell, this thing ruins stall and fares well against bulkier teams, since it can set up on pretty much anything not packing a super effective STAB.

If you'd like to explain why this set is bad against everything else, be my guest.

 

[Vivian23]

Ive seen some peaple putting 60 evs on admant talonflame's speed, but what are that 60 evs for?

 

[Shiruba]

Ive seen some peaple putting 60 evs on admant talonflame's speed, but what are that 60 evs for?

Outspeeding Jolly Excadrill to hit it with a Flare Blitz.

 

[FurryGah]

Excadrill and Rotom-W are great team mates fir Talonflame. They seem to have good matchups with Talonflames counters.

 

[Vivian23]

Whats better with talonflame, sand rush excadrill or mold break excadrill?

 

[AOPSUser]

Whats better with talonflame, sand rush excadrill or mold break excadrill?

Mold Breaker kills stuff like Rotom-W, and Sand Rush isn't useful anymore anyways.

Also, Bulk Up/Taunt/BB/Roost is a legit set. I think it passed QC in Contributions and Corrections. And it manhandles stall and beats Heatran too. Don't bash it.

 

[56k]

Many talonflames out there put EVs into HP instead of speed, because they only thing they're trying to normally outspeed might be the base 100 tier or maybe excadrills. Well, how about putting those extra EVs into SpAtk instead of HP?

Talonflame@Expert Belt
Gale Wings
Lonely/Naughty
252 Atk / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
-Brave Bird
-Overheat
-HP Ground
-U-Turn

196 SpA Expert Belt Talonflame Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: (37.3 - 44.81%)
196 SpA Expert Belt Talonflame Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: (51.03 - 60.88%)

252+ Atk Expert Belt Talonflame U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: (33.16 - 39.85%)

196 SpA Expert Belt Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: (119.33 - 141.5%)

196 SpA Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: (52.09 - 61.51%)


I guess I don't think this is Flame's best set, but it's still good because every set Flame runs with a flying stab is good :| I tried it out on the ladder and it was fine. U-turn was fast enough when it needed to be, brave bird meant there was always a 100% revenge kill against any boosting grass/fighting/bug types, and the HP Ground is just fabulous for heatrans which are EVERYWHERE because of talonflame and genesect.

 

[vonK]

You probably want at least enough EV's invested in speed to outspeed Mega-pinsir, as whoever gets the first hit off in that conflict takes all.

 

[Punchshroom]

That's exactly the kind of tailor-made to theoretically beat Heatran, bad against everything else set I was talking about earlier.

You realise Bulk Up Talonflame isn't made just to beat Heatran right (because that's leaning towards what the Natural Gift sets do); Ancientpower-less Heatran just happens to be one of several of Bulk Up Talonflame's favorable matchups.

I don't wanna ramble to long about what BU Talonflame can set up on, but while there are Pokemon who completely cockblock Talonflame, there are a good number in OU that are helpless before it (Fairies, Steels, Bugs, the Grass / Ghosts, etc.), especially those who rely on residual damage to stop it (Ferrothorn and Gliscor come to mind). It is a very legitimate set that can screw up teams who look out only for CB Talonflames.

Edit: My best run with BU Talonflame; other battles consisted of forfeits from people who realised their Gliscors can't touch me :P

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oubeta-72038046

I admit, I misplayed a couple of turns, but it still shows off Bulk Up Talonflame's stuff. Would you have believed your Gengar would do a measely 37% with its Shadow Ball to Talonflame? (so if you selected Thunderbolt not expecting a Roost, welp you're screwed) The best part is that Mega-Lucario cannot even hope to bring me down with Extreme Speed at the end, assuming it had it.

252+ Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. +3 208 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 56-66 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO

I know Talonflame's fragility makes this set seem highly unlikely to pull off, but you'd be surprised how well its resists work for it, especially when you consider that Talonflame is totally "immune" to Sucker Punch (bar Mega-Absol), not that it would do much after some boosts anyway.

 

[Soul Fly]

DUDE I KNOW

BU-Taunt SpD Talonflame is superfucking clutch. I fell in love with that set. any heatran lacking ancientpower gets really boned. In retrospect the only reason to run Ancient power on any heatran is because of this set.

Another fun fact addendum. After +2 you'll even be eating up Banded Azu aqua jets and just recovering back with prio roost and 2HKO-ing back.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. +2 212 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 158-188 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

meanwhile:

+2 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 261-307 (64.6 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

point to note that my set of choice is less bulkier than being discussed here since i like to speed creep some stuff but it still gets the job done.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Azumarill wouldn't use Aqua Jet though because Talonflame has faster priority, it'd use Waterfall/Aqua Tail which you can't take.

 

[AOPSUser]

Azumarill wouldn't use Aqua Jet though because Talonflame has faster priority, it'd use Waterfall/Aqua Tail which you can't take.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. +2 212 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 318-374 (90.8 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. +3 212 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 254-300 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 471-555 (116.5 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Not that you should use it against Azumarill, but even if you have only two Bulk Ups, go for that third.)

The only problem is keeping SR off the field.

 

[Talpr0ne]

You realise Bulk Up Talonflame isn't made just to beat Heatran right (because that's leaning towards what the Natural Gift sets do); Ancientpower-less Heatran just happens to be one of several of Bulk Up Talonflame's favorable matchups.

I don't wanna ramble to long about what BU Talonflame can set up on, but while there are Pokemon who completely cockblock Talonflame, there are a good number in OU that are helpless before it (Fairies, Steels, Bugs, the Grass / Ghosts, etc.), especially those who rely on residual damage to stop it (Ferrothorn and Gliscor come to mind). It is a very legitimate set that can screw up teams who look out only for CB Talonflames.

Edit: My best run with BU Talonflame; other battles consisted of forfeits from people who realised their Gliscors can't touch me :P

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oubeta-72038046

I admit, I misplayed a couple of turns, but it still shows off Bulk Up Talonflame's stuff. Would you have believed your Gengar would do a measely 37% with its Shadow Ball to Talonflame? (so if you selected Thunderbolt not expecting a Roost, welp you're screwed) The best part is that Mega-Lucario cannot even hope to bring me down with Extreme Speed at the end, assuming it had it.

252+ Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. +3 208 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 56-66 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO

I know Talonflame's fragility makes this set seem highly unlikely to pull off, but you'd be surprised how well its resists work for it, especially when you consider that Talonflame is totally "immune" to Sucker Punch (bar Mega-Absol), not that it would do much after some boosts anyway.

LOL that's why i started to run Stone Edge on Gliscor.

 

[TKGriffiths]

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. +2 212 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 318-374 (90.8 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. +3 212 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 254-300 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 471-555 (116.5 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Not that you should use it against Azumarill, but even if you have only two Bulk Ups, go for that third.)

The only problem is keeping SR off the field.

Oh, so now it's not specially defensive but 252+ invested in Attack? Way to move the goalposts.

How is it getting to +3 though? And Azumarill still beats it even with your skewed calcs since you kill yourself with recoil, hence all the Bulk Up turns wasted. I really don't think it's a good set.

 

[AOPSUser]

Oh, so now it's not specially defensive but 252+ invested in Attack? Way to move the goalposts.

How is it getting to +3 though? And Azumarill still beats it even with your skewed calcs since you kill yourself with recoil, hence all the Bulk Up turns wasted. I really don't think it's a good set.

(Not that you should use it against Azumarill, but even if you have only two Bulk Ups, go for that third.)

It's a really good set because it completely fucks over Stall, which really tends to think they can wall Talonflame well. All you need to do is remove or weaken certain threats, such as Rock-types, Azumarill (not found on stall anyways), and Rotom-W (not really found on full stall).

It also walks over anyone who is expecting CB or SD and doesn't have a Rock-type.

 

[TKGriffiths]

It's a really good set because it completely fucks over Stall, which really tends to think they can wall Talonflame well. All you need to do is remove or weaken certain threats, such as Rock-types, Azumarill (not found on stall anyways), and Rotom-W (not really found on full stall).

It also walks over anyone who is expecting CB or SD and doesn't have a Rock-type.

But it's stopped by so many common stall pokemon though. Sableye, Status Klefki (Paralysis doesn't stop the set but good luck setting up through parahax), Unaware Clefable, anything with Dragon Tail, Rotom, Jellicent (practically every water-type for that matter I won't name them all), Tyranitar (again practically every rock-type I won't name them). Even uninvested Espeon/Xatu are doing about 50% with Psychic and Xatu also threatens with status.

 

[AOPSUser]

But it's stopped by so many common stall pokemon though. Sableye, Status Klefki (Paralysis doesn't stop the set but good luck setting up through parahax), Unaware Clefable, anything with Dragon Tail, Rotom, Jellicent (practically every water-type for that matter I won't name them all), Tyranitar (again practically every rock-type I won't name them). Even uninvested Espeon/Xatu are doing about 50% with Psychic and Xatu also threatens with status.

Sableye is helpless against Talonflame if it can get some Bulk Ups in beforehand, or if it gets hit by Taunt switching in. It's also not common at all. Espeon and Xatu cannot take boosted Brave Birds and the only thing they can do is bounce Taunt. Clefable is completely helpless unless it has Thunderbolt, which I've never seen on one. Stall teams usually don't use Dragon Tail Pokemon, Roar/Whirlwind is good enough for them. Rotom-W and Tyranitar you are not facing anyways. Jellicent only stops you if you don't have multiple boosts.

Don't be stupid when you try to play BU Talonflame. It works well.