Rotom-Wash is an excellent counter. I've been putting EVs into HP and DEF just to take care of Talonflame.
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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While that is true, variants that don't invest in Defense (or a lot of HP) risk bein heavily damaged from boosted hits (so basically, don't let it take a boost before you bring in Rotom-W). But yeah, overall Rotom-W seems to be one, if not the, best counters to this thing, so long as you don't let it get out of hand with it's boosts, it can kick its ass, also it can just Volt Switch so either way you gain the upper hand.
Another counter:
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.53 - 33.96%) -- possible 4HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 165-195 (45.83 - 54.16%) -- 49.22% chance to 2HKO
Used max HP EVs here to just demonstrate that bulky variant can't really do much to survive it all that much. Mandibuzz showing some excellent ability here, as Talonflame cannot really do much to threaten it.
I think I will switch to CB Talonflame for a while, did some calcs and it does quite a satisfying amount of damage with BB. An example, it cleanly OHKOes Tornadus. With 252Attack/252 speed and Adamant (max speed to outsped the many Talonflames that don't invest in speed), I think it could work as a top-notch cleaner.
Of course, unless Talonflame SDs...
But regardless, good point. Mandibuzz is starting to get some credibility this gen.
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Mandibuzz: 243-286 (57.31 - 67.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yup, but Talonflame will just get KOd immediately due to Foul Play. Talonflame has to have already dealt some damage to Mandibuzz, as well as having set up, to KO.
If standard Talonflame uses Swords Dance, Foul Play is running off Talonflame's 574 Atk;
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 88 HP / 0 Def (custom): 330-388 (103.44 - 121.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And that's what I'm talking about. I meant that if Mandibuzz switched into a +2 Talonflame, it'd get killed. It is good, though, that Mandibuzz can threaten to OHKO if sent in as a revenge killer.
Turn 1: Mandibuzz comes in, Talonflame Swords Dances.
Turn 2: Talonflame does over half, Mandibuzz OHKOes.
Under no circumstance should you let Talonflame get Swords Dance before Mandibuzz comes in, because only then would Mandibuzz lose.
Just an addition to what you said:
Even LO variants can't get that OHKO on Mandi, and no amount of Defense investment will save it due to recoil from Brave Bird/Flare Blitz.
To further clarify my statement, I'm assuming, for example, a +2 Talonflame has just KO'd one of your mons. You send in a healthy Mandibuzz. The Talonflame user has to decide whether or not to deal a hefty amount of damage to Mandibuzz and die, or to switch out and lose the +2 boost.
I know that Mandibuzz should not switch into a +2 Talonflame.
If a +2 Talonflame cannot KO Mandibuzz, why not switch in directly as it sets up instead of letting it KO one of your mons? You don't risk it setting up more Swords Dances before Mandibuzz enters battle that way.
Ladies and gents, I believe I have found the perfect Talonflame counter.
Meet Zapdos:
Zapdos is a force to be reckoned with since its inception. It was solid OU for 4 gens, top UU last gen, and now it gets legal Lightningrod to play with.
Calcs (think I did them correctly)
Talonflame vs. Zapdos
252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 87-103 (22.71 - 26.89%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 82-97 (21.4 - 25.32%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 127-151 (33.15 - 39.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Zapdos vs. Talonflame
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 338-398 (113.8 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos AncientPower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 284-336 (95.62 - 113.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 284-336 (95.62 - 113.13%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
Zapdos can switch into any attack, take 2 hits (even with SR up), and OHKO Talonflame right back. If that's not a counter I don't know what is.
Discharge and AncientPower (useless, but dat 10% chance of all stats boost) fall just shy of a KO- with just 60 SpA EVs a OHKO for both is guaranteed. If you do that, Acrobatics still can't 4HKO.
So yeah, anyone else thinking this electric bird could rise to OU again?
EDIT: Didn't account for nerfed Thunderbolt. Still KOes though. 107.74 - 127.27% with no investment whatsoever at 90 BP.
Meet Zapdos:
Zapdos is a force to be reckoned with since its inception. It was solid OU for 4 gens, top UU last gen, and now it gets legal Lightningrod to play with.
Calcs (think I did them correctly)
Talonflame vs. Zapdos
252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 87-103 (22.71 - 26.89%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 82-97 (21.4 - 25.32%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 127-151 (33.15 - 39.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Zapdos vs. Talonflame
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 338-398 (113.8 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos AncientPower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 284-336 (95.62 - 113.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 284-336 (95.62 - 113.13%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
Zapdos can switch into any attack, take 2 hits (even with SR up), and OHKO Talonflame right back. If that's not a counter I don't know what is.
Discharge and AncientPower (useless, but dat 10% chance of all stats boost) fall just shy of a KO- with just 60 SpA EVs a OHKO for both is guaranteed. If you do that, Acrobatics still can't 4HKO.
So yeah, anyone else thinking this electric bird could rise to OU again?
EDIT: Didn't account for nerfed Thunderbolt. Still KOes though. 107.74 - 127.27% with no investment whatsoever at 90 BP.
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There are plenty of better TalonFlame counters, such as T-Tar, Rhyperior, and pretty much every bulky rock type viable in the higher tiers. Rotom-W is a better counter due to resisting both of TalonFlame's STABs and WoWing any possible switch-ins. Zapdos was good in OU last gen, just kinda overshadowed by Thundy-T and not getting enough usage because of that.Ladies and gents, I believe I have found the perfect Talonflame counter.
Meet Zapdos:
A force to be reckoned with since its inception. It was solid OU for 4 gens, top UU last gen, and now it gets legal Lightningrod to play with.
Calcs (think I did them correctly)
Talonflame vs. Zapdos
252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 87-103 (22.71 - 26.89%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 82-97 (21.4 - 25.32%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 127-151 (33.15 - 39.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Zapdos vs. Talonflame
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 338-398 (113.8 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos AncientPower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 284-336 (95.62 - 113.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 284-336 (95.62 - 113.13%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
Zapdos can switch into any attack, take 2 hits (even with SR up), and OHKO Talonflame right back. If that's not a counter I don't know what is.
Discharge and AncientPower (useless, but dat 10% chance of all stats boost) fall just shy of a KO- with just 60 SpA EVs a OHKO for both is guaranteed. If you do that, Acrobatics still can't 4HKO.
So yeah, anyone else thinking this electric bird could rise to OU again?
EDIT: Didn't account for nerfed Thunderbolt. Still KOes though. 107.74 - 127.27% with no investment whatsoever at 90 BP.
Also, in one of those, I think you mean Talonflame, not Gliscor :P
I wouldn't say Rotom-W is a better counter in every way. Zapdos gets reliable recovery in Roost. Also, Rotom-W's standard set is Volt Switch and Hydro Pump, the first which doesn't OHKO, the second which misses 20% of the time. Zapdos can kill immediately with Thunderbolt (granted, you can run it on Rotom too). Zapdos has an excellent electric immunity with Lightningrod (and free SpA), and a utility role in Defog (illegal with Lightningrod though).
Tyranitar is kind of shaky if Talonflame has U-Turn. Also Miss-Edge. Also sand isn't for every team.
Rhyperior has horribad weaknesses, and other rock types are lel. I'm not saying Zapdos is the best counter, but it's a solid choice, with its own niche and all.
EDIT: Yes, not Gliscor.
As Diabolo above said, Zapdos is OHKOed by SD Talonflame, which already makes it a non-counter.
Also, since weather has been nerfed you can really effectively run T-Tar on every team.
And BTW ChestoRest Rotom-W which is what I'm running, can take any +2 attack from Talonflame, rest if need be. I understand that hydro Pump misses a lot, but seriously, it's still a counter.
Allow me to add that Talonflame is faster, so Zapdos is not even a check unless Talonflame has not boosted.
I know, everyone is obsessing over Physical Talonflame, but has anyone even looked at Special Talonflame? I mean, it has just 7 Base Stat Total difference between Attack and Special Attack! I've been playing around and have found a few sets are equally as good as the "norm".
Life Orb Mixed Attacker
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Brave Bird
Sunny Day Sweeper
Talonflame @ Heat Rock
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Brave Bird
Gimmicky Flail
Talonflame @ Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flail
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
Choice Specs
Talonflame @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Overheat
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Fire Blast
Life Orb Mixed Attacker
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Brave Bird
Sunny Day Sweeper
Talonflame @ Heat Rock
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Brave Bird
Gimmicky Flail
Talonflame @ Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flail
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
Choice Specs
Talonflame @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Overheat
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Fire Blast
Talonflame doesn't have the stats to go mixed and he doesn't have a move to boost his special attack. It would be quite a surprise, but not a very dangerous one.
I don't necessarily agree that it can't go mixed. Arcticblast posted about a mixed set he's been using lately a couple pages back that looks pretty neat.
I think Arcticblast achieved a fairly ideal spread here, and I do agree that 252 SpA / 4 Atk with Hidden Power Ice instead of Hidden Power Ground is fairly inefficient. Consider what you're hitting with Hidden Power Ice: Gliscor and Landorus-T, neither of which appreciate an Overheat or a Fire Blast to begin with, Dragonite, which isn't taking that much anyways with Multiscale and can consequently Dragon Dance and hit you with a +1 (or if running Weakness Policy, +3) Extremespeed, and Salamence, which is practically non-existent these days. Arcticblast's spread works as an early game hole-puncher that can clean up later with priority Life Orb Brave Bird after hopefully removing its own checks. Life Orb also compensates for the lack of 252 Atk EVs, so it will still hit pretty hard with Brave Bird. Of course, the recoil is a very real concern, but as long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field, you can potentially lure in and KO checks to standard SD/Choice Band sets, making Talonflame's life much easier as the game progresses.
You'd need roost with sub, simply because of how much Hp you'd be losing, which would mean giving an offensive option. I personally don't think bulk up is anywhere as good as swords dance, but I see it on sets so I assume it isn't all that bad.
I know, I'm talking about running Flareblitz, brave bird, Roost, Subsitute.....Wait I see, no boost lol.
Tho, Flareblitz, Brave bird, Sword dance, Subsitute with left overs could work I'd imagine.
And yeah, bulk up seem alittle stupid but Ithink the extra defence could work on a set with some hp investment.
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