Tangrowth (Special Attacker)

[SlimMan]

Tangrowth
[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: SolarBeam
move 2: AncientPower / Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Power Whip
move 4: Sleep Powder / Power Whip
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest / Rash
evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

<p>Although it appears that Tangrowth's 50 base Speed stat makes sweeping with him nearly impossible, this is easily remedied with Sunny Day support. Thanks to Tangrowth's Chlorophyll ability, his Speed doubles in the sun, allowing him to outspeed almost all of the UU tier and take advantage of his high attacking stats, if only for eight turns (provided the Sunny Day user is holding Heat Rock). While offensive Tangrowth is typically seen as a physical attacker with Swords Dance, this set attempts to take advantage of Chlorphyll and the higher of Tangrowth's attacking stats, his Special Attack. Despite being somewhat overshadowed by the physical sets, this is still a simple and effective set to use. Once a teammate sets up Sunny Day, Tangrowth easily switch in and attempt to sweep, thanks to a base 125 Defense that allows him to effortlessly sponge most physical attacks.</p>

<p>Since this Tangrowth relies on the Speed boost from Chlorophyll to be successful, Sunny Day support is absolutely mandatory. Once sun is set up, Sleep Powder is generally the first thing that Tangrowth should use, as most players will immediately switch in their counter, allowing Tangrowth to quickly incapacitate it. With his counter asleep and his Speed doubled, Tangrowth can then proceed to use his flawless coverage to hit most Pokemon in the UU tier for heavy damage. SolarBeam is a very potent attack, and takes no charge-up to execute in the sun. Hidden Power Fire gets a 1.5x power boost from sunlight, and AncientPower provides near flawless coverage, even without Hidden Power Fire (though Tangrowth should run Hidden Power Rock if it does not have Hidden Power Fire). Power Whip may be used over either Sleep Powder or Hidden Power Fire as a last-ditch attempt to topple to special walls, such as Chansey, who would otherwise wall Tangrowth; though it provides no extra coverage and seems fairly situational, its wallbreaking capabilities alone make Power Whip worthy of consideration. The given EV spread should be used without Power Whip, while an alternative EV spread of 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe with a Rash nature shoud be used if Tangrowth is running Power Whip.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Some damage calculations that demonstrate how Tangrowth deals with some common switch-ins:</p>

<ul class="damage_calculation">

<li>AncientPower vs. 120 HP/0 SpD Arcanine: 57.4%-67.8%</li>
<li>AncientPower vs. 0 HP/4 SpD Altaria: 54.3%-64.6%</li>
<li>AncientPower vs. 0 HP/4 SpD Houndoom: 68.7%-81.1%</li>
<li>AncientPower vs. 248 HP/0 SpD Moltres: 100.3%-118%</li>
<li>AncientPower vs. 224 HP/0 SpD Scyther: 142.3%-168%</li>
<li>AncientPower vs. 0 HP/4 SpD Swellow: 109.6%-129.5%</li>
<li>Power Whip vs. 0 HP/252 SpD Chansey: 58.5%-69%</li>
</ul>

<p>Conveniently, many common Tangrowth counters are weak to Rock-type attacks, meaning that they are either OHKOed or 2HKOed by AncientPower; if Tangrowth can catch these Pokemon on the switch with a super effective hit, it's guaranteed, that they will be unable to touch him. Chansey is included in the calculations as it is arguably the best special wall in UU; however, she is easily 2HKOed by Power Whip. This set may not be able to boost up like the Swords Dance set, but it can hit hard right off the bat and does not have to worry about setting up again each time it switches in and out.</p>

<p>The EV spread is fairly simple and straightforward. First, Special Attack is maxed out in order to let Tangrowth hit as hard as possible. Then, 224 Speed EVs are used, allowing Tangrowth to outspeed Jolly Swellow, the fastest non-Choice Scarfed Pokemon in UU, after the Chlorophyll boost. The remaining EVs are then put in HP to give Tangrowth a bit of extra bulk. In the alternative EV spread, a Rash nature and 32 Attack EVs ensure that Tangrowth can 2HKO Chansey with Power Whip.</p>

<p>As far as offensive teammates go, it's hard to beat physical Life Orb Arcanine. Not only does he resist Tangrowth's Fire-, Bug-, and Ice-type weaknesses, but he is also capable of taking advantage of the sun support that this Tangrowth loves. A STAB Flare Blitz in the sun will easily handle Registeel and Venusaur, both of whom this set has trouble with. His physical attacking prowess greatly compliments the special attacking power of Tangrowth. Houndoom works similarly, but tends to be specially based, and is walled by Chansey (who also walls Tangrowth lacking Power Whip). However, Houndoom's access to Nasty Plot compensates for this, allowing him to break through almost any special wall. Blaziken also fits nicely on a team with Tangrowth, for much the same reason as Arcanine. Fire-types in general tend to work especially well with Tangrowth, as they can counter most of the common Pokmon that can wall this Tangrowth. For instance, Venusaur and Registeel are arguably the biggest defensive threats to this set, but both are KOed by a STAB, Sunny Day-boosted Flare Blitz or Flamethrower from any of the aforementioned Fire-types.</p>

<p>While Fire-types work well offensively, standard Registeel may well be the best defensive partner for this Tangrowth. Registeel can paralyze enemies with Thunder Wave, which helps when Sunny Day runs out, set up Stealth Rock (a necessity for any sweeper), as well as the crucial Sunny Day. Registeel can also use Explosion to take out a counter whom Tangrowth didn't put to sleep. Registeel is either resistant or immune to the Ice-, Bug-, Flying-, and Poison-type attacks that plague Tangrowth, allowing it to easily switch in if Tangrowth is in danger of being KOed. However, you must beware of Tangrowth and Registeel's shared weakness to Fire-type attacks. Chansey makes another good partner, having phenomenal special bulk to go along with Tangrowth's excellent physical bulk. She can do all of the same things as Registeel (minus Explosion), but lacks type synergy with Tangrowth. However, Chansey does have the ability to check Nasty Plot Houndoom, who can pose a significant threat to this set.</p>

 

[Fatecrashers]

posting to say your link for tangrowth goes to heatran

 

[SlimMan]

posting to say your link for tangrowth goes to heatran

I have no idea how that happened. 0.0
Thank you for alerting me.

edit: fixed

 

[DangerMouse]

I love Tangrowth to bad his special movepool isn't as large as his physical movepool. Anyways here are some opinions. You should put Leaf Storm over Solar Beam unless this is just going to be a straight sunny day set. I think you would better off making this set focus on working without sunny day but thats just my opinion. Also put your attacks first since this an attacking set.

move 1: Leaf Storm / Solar Beam
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Sludge Bomb
move 4: Synthesis / Sunny Day

 

[Marcurcio]

Not so sure about synthesis. It may be better replaced with another attacking move. I don't think there is much which is going to attack Tangrowth and not 2HKO, so it seems like a waste of a moveslot. It does have access to focus blast but you may want to avoid that as it is rather unreliable. There was one other thing I was going to suggest, but I can't remember now so I'll edit it in later.

 

[SlimMan]

I love Tangrowth to bad his special movepool isn't as large as his physical movepool. Anyways here are some opinions. You should put Leaf Storm over Solar Beam unless this is just going to be a straight sunny day set. I think you would better off making this set focus on working without sunny day but thats just my opinion. Also put your attacks first since this an attacking set.

move 1: Leaf Storm / Solar Beam
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Sludge Bomb
move 4: Synthesis / Sunny Day

The reason that I didn't slash in Leaf Storm was that it all but makes you switch out, and Tangrowth can't afford to repeatedly switch into attacks. For more than just a hit-and-run strategy, it was not included. Besides, Tangrowth is too slow to sweep without Sunny Day. Anyway, I'll re-order the moves as you suggested, but I don't see what difference it makes as far as the actual set. Thanks for the input though.

Not so sure about synthesis. It may be better replaced with another attacking move. I don't think there is much which is going to attack Tangrowth and not 2HKO, so it seems like a waste of a moveslot. It does have access to focus blast but you may want to avoid that as it is rather unreliable. There was one other thing I was going to suggest, but I can't remember now so I'll edit it in later.

You're right that just about any special attack will 2HKO Tangrowth. However, you're also right that his movepool is limited, which perhaps makes Synthesis the best choice after all. I had neglected to notice Focus Blast, and it definitely deserves a mention, being able to beat down Registeel. But its unreliability is a problem. I'm thinking an AC mention.

 

[YaM]

I think SolarBeam / HP Fire / Ancientpower / Synthesis is the best set. You get HP Fire to use in Sun which gets a 1.5 boost and. which is super effective against Registeel and Venusaur which you originally couldn't deal with with HP Rock and Sludge Bomb. Ancientpower should still be good enough to kill Moltres and Scyther.

 

[SlimMan]

That's true, YaM, and I've toyed with that set myself. In the end, I found that the 10 BP drop (from HP Rock) with Ancient Power was enough to drop it though, as you lose out on some crucial KOes against foes who otherwise threaten you, such as an OHKO on Houndoom after SR, a 2HKO on bulky Altaria after SR, a 2HKO on Blaziken, and some others. Not to mention that Tangrowth becomes completely dependent on team support to set up Sunny Day. I'll certainly re-try it out, seeing as it's been a while, but there are some things that your Tangrowth simply can't do. However, it's certainly a valis suggestion, and I'll try it out. Thanks! :D And I've got work tomorrow, so I can't respond again until ~4:30. Goodnight. :)

 

[Marcurcio]

You're right that just about any special attack will 2HKO Tangrowth. However, you're also right that his movepool is limited, which perhaps makes Synthesis the best choice after all. I had neglected to notice Focus Blast, and it definitely deserves a mention, being able to beat down Registeel. But its unreliability is a problem. I'm thinking an AC mention.

Sounds good, I'm not a fan of 70 accuracy either.

 

[Alan]

I love Tangrowth to bad his special movepool isn't as large as his physical movepool. Anyways here are some opinions. You should put Leaf Storm over Solar Beam unless this is just going to be a straight sunny day set. I think you would better off making this set focus on working without sunny day but thats just my opinion. Also put your attacks first since this an attacking set.

move 1: Leaf Storm / Solar Beam
move 2: Hidden Power Rock
move 3: Sludge Bomb
move 4: Synthesis / Sunny Day

this set is 100% outclassed by victreebel who gains a STAB sludgebomb

 

[YaM]

That's true, YaM, and I've toyed with that set myself. In the end, I found that the 10 BP drop (from HP Rock) with Ancient Power was enough to drop it though, as you lose out on some crucial KOes against foes who otherwise threaten you, such as an OHKO on Houndoom after SR, a 2HKO on bulky Altaria after SR, a 2HKO on Blaziken, and some others. Not to mention that Tangrowth becomes completely dependent on team support to set up Sunny Day. I'll certainly re-try it out, seeing as it's been a while, but there are some things that your Tangrowth simply can't do. However, it's certainly a valis suggestion, and I'll try it out. Thanks! :D And I've got work tomorrow, so I can't respond again until ~4:30. Goodnight. :)

Right. While the set I proposed is more reliant on the Sun, hitting most Pokemon weaker than outside of Sun except for Registeel, Steelix and Venusaur, but still, it hits harder with HP Fire in the Sun. Also, with SolarBeam as your only STAB attack, you're pretty much VERY reliant on the Sun anyway.

I just believe HP Fire / AncientPower deserve secondary slashes at least.

Alan, though Tangrowth is slower than Victreebel, it does boast MUCH higher physical bulk and a higher Special Attack.

 

[DangerMouse]

this set is 100% outclassed by victreebel who gains a STAB sludgebomb

In the sun yes somewhat as a pure sweeper but outside of weather (and even with weather) Tangrwoth is much better at taking hits because of his defense and HP, victreebel is about as bulky as a wet paper towel so I wouldn’t say outclassed just different roles, tangrowth is an awesome wall that only has to worry about special attacks, He can take a STAB Brave Bird from Swellow and live victreebel cant do that. Plus Tangrowth doesn’t need sun to work unlike victreebel who isn't useless but has a much harder time without. I was just saying this set can be effective outside of sun as tangrowth can work outside of weather. In sun solar beam is an option but I definitely believe Leaf Storm should be slashed because this set can work in and out of weather. Sludge Bomb deserves a mention somewhere if HP rock is being used (even though HP fire is superior in sun) every team has at least 1 grass type.

 

[SOMALIA]

this set is 100% outclassed by victreebel who gains a STAB sludgebomb

It does not matter whether a Pokemon is 'outclassed' using a certain set. As long as the Pokemon itself can use the set efficiently there is no reason to make comparisons. Furthermore Tangrowth has useful resistances to Ground and is nowhere as fragile as Victreebel. Also regarding what Dangermouse said, I've tried this set with Sludge Bomb today and it didn't bring any positives to the mixture. Why not try Ancient Power(which OHKO's Moltres) with Hidden Power Fire instead of Sunny Day and Hidden Power Rock. The only notable lose of Hidden Power Rock for Ancient Power is that you are not guaranteed to KO Houndoom after Stealth Rock (69.4% - 81.8%) although you still OHKO Moltres 100% of the time. That again is balanced out with the fact that you 2HKO Venusaur regardless of Entry hazards and have the chance to get a KO after SR damage (Scarf Heracross also gets OHKO'd after SR damage, sweet ha). Also it would be nice if you briefly mention how it's ability helps it. Nice set anyhow!!

 

[SlimMan]

Right. While the set I proposed is more reliant on the Sun, hitting most Pokemon weaker than outside of Sun except for Registeel, Steelix and Venusaur, but still, it hits harder with HP Fire in the Sun. Also, with SolarBeam as your only STAB attack, you're pretty much VERY reliant on the Sun anyway.

I just believe HP Fire / AncientPower deserve secondary slashes at least.

Alan, though Tangrowth is slower than Victreebel, it does boast MUCH higher physical bulk and a higher Special Attack.

Right, but my point was that without Sunny Day, you need other members to use it (more than you already do). Also, on a Sunny Day team, you'll typically have Fire members who can use Fire attacks anyway.

But this isn't about the team, it's about Tangrowth. I do believe that your set can be viable, just that it would mean a different Tangrowth. For instance, when 2HKOes turn to 3HKOes, you would re-distribute the EVs to add bulk, while still getting the 3HKOes. So you would need less SpA EVs to get that KO and have more to distribute to HP/Def.

Your set does deserve mention, but I'll need to find a way to make that work into the analysis (with the changes it would entail).

It does not matter whether a Pokemon is 'outclassed' using a certain set. As long as the Pokemon itself can use the set efficiently there is no reason to make comparisons. Furthermore Tangrowth has useful resistances to Ground and is nowhere as fragile as Victreebel. Also regarding what Dangermouse said, I've tried this set with Sludge Bomb today and it didn't bring any positives to the mixture. Why not try Ancient Power(which OHKO's Moltres) with Hidden Power Fire instead of Sunny Day and Hidden Power Rock. The only notable lose of Hidden Power Rock for Ancient Power is that you are not guaranteed to KO Houndoom after Stealth Rock (69.4% - 81.8%) although you still OHKO Moltres 100% of the time. That again is balanced out with the fact that you 2HKO Venusaur regardless of Entry hazards and have the chance to get a KO after SR damage (Scarf Heracross also gets OHKO'd after SR damage, sweet ha). Also it would be nice if you briefly mention how it's ability helps it. Nice set anyhow!!

Well, I talked about that above. I'm led to believe that, when I used that Tangrowth, I wasn't using it correctly, due to the fact that multiple people are vouching for it. While Fire types are generally the biggest threat to Tangrowth (for whom you would want HP Rock), and HP Rock nets important KOes, the coverage of the set you and YaM proposed is certainly superior. I can't deny that it has its advantages, despite causing Tangrowth flee from foes it otherwise wouldn't have to. I'm still not sure about it, but I'm working, as stated above, to squeeze it in.

A way to keep Sunny Day on that set would be to eliminate Synthesis, but then Life Orb really takes its toll. That would make Expert Belt viable to prevent recoil, and due to the excellent coverage of that set. It's halfway to its own set, but not enough to render its own analysis. Therefore, it becomes even more logical for it to be somewhere.

edit: Put in the set of YaM/SOMALIA. Personally, I still resist it, but competitively, there's no reason why it isn't an option. Thanks to you two. :)

 

[YaM]

Hey thanks for considering the changes, SlimMan. By the way, I forgot to suggest Sleep Powder, perhaps it should replace Sunny Day or be slashed with Synthesis?


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand two leaf storms in a row still do more than 2 energy balls so leaf storm goes in AC?

 

[DangerMouse]

Hey thanks for considering the changes, SlimMan. By the way, I forgot to suggest Sleep Powder, perhaps it should replace Sunny Day or be slashed with Synthesis?

I would suggest putting it in the AC as it does deserve a mention

 

[SlimMan]

Hey thanks for considering the changes, SlimMan. By the way, I forgot to suggest Sleep Powder, perhaps it should replace Sunny Day or be slashed with Synthesis?


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand two leaf storms in a row still do more than 2 energy balls so leaf storm goes in AC?

Sleep Powder's issue is that, due to Sleep Clause, it's typically a one-time use. Also, with only 5 (or 8) turns of Sun, I don't quite see its worth. You aren't trying to use the opponents nap-time to set up, nor are you setting up anyone else. Sleeping moves are certainly useful (just look at Spore), but I think Sleep Powder is in the vein (and bullet point) of Focus Blast, where a miss could end Tangrowth's sweep. I'm not averse to using Sleep Powder, but perhaps you could explain to me how its benefits out-weigh the negatives on this particular set. Thanks. :)

Leaf Storm wasn't mentioned because despite 2 Leaf Storm>2 Energy Ball, your other attacks do sufficiently less that you can't get kills quickly enough, and you must switch out. Two turns of Leaf Storm sweeping doesn't quite seem worth it for the trouble of setting up Sunny Day. When you do switch out after your Leaf Storming is done, you lose valuable Sunny Day turns. I can stick it in, but 2 turns (assuming you use Leaf Storm first) are still hit-and-run to me. Obviously switching to avoid dying is different, but making yourself do it.... Anyway, it would be used over SolarBeam if it was chosen, and 2 SolarBeam>2 Leaf Storm. A lack of Sunny Day turns 2 SolarBeams into 1 SolarBeam, but this Tangrowth depends on Sunny Day anyway, so that doesn't really matter. I'll put it in with Energy Ball, as I don't quite think it deserves its own bullet point.

 

[YaM]

You're right about Leaf Storm. Ignore what I said.

About Sleep Powder, it allows you to safely 2HKO foes 75% of the time that would OHKO/Status you. For example, it would be useful to put Arcanine to sleep and then kill him with 2 HP Rocks, instead of one HP Rock and eating a Flare Blitz. Registeel and Special LO Venusaur and also disabled before they paralyze, sleep or Sludge Bomb you.

 

[SlimMan]

You're right about Leaf Storm. Ignore what I said.

About Sleep Powder, it allows you to safely 2HKO foes 75% of the time that would OHKO/Status you. For example, it would be useful to put Arcanine to sleep and then kill him with 2 HP Rocks, instead of one HP Rock and eating a Flare Blitz. Registeel and Special LO Venusaur and also disabled before they paralyze, sleep or Sludge Bomb you.

That's true. However, if they switch to another 'mon that threatens you, you're screwed. You can't sleep them, and you're in the same boat. Very few people leave a sleeping poke in on a sweeper, which generally makes Sleep Powder be used once, then a move-slot waste for the rest of the match. Also, you said that the pokemon you mentioned are 2HKOed. This Tangrowth is better used late-game anyway, when you could catch them on the switch. I can add Sleep Powder, but I'll want to see that it's generally considered worth it, not just one (albeit very helpful) Smogoner. Not to just blow you off though, I'm just saying that it's like Leaf Storm in that it's generally a one-shot move, which is rivaled by good prediction.

 

[SlimMan]

Sorry to double-post...

I've been testing this, and while Sleep Powder certainly isn't going to kill someone, I've decided to slash it with Synthesis. The right side is not self-sufficient already, and Synthesis can really only be used when you know that the opponent will not attack. Therefore, Sleep Powder does deserve a mention.

But Synthesis is still there because with Sunny Day and HP Rock, Tangrowth can (to an extent) take care of itself, and when it is capable of that, you'll want recovery. Yay YaM.

However, while the set's moves are all good choices, the number of slashes may well affect read-a-bility. Any thoughts on this?

 

[SlimMan]

Normally, I don't like to bump. But I would rather have this set be rejected than ignored (though accepted is the best ;D). I've contacted some QC members, and now all I can do is wait... Does anyone else have more feedback?
Yay triple-post!

 

[uragg]

I'm a bit confused with this set. Is it supposed to be a sweeper on a dedicated sun team or a standalone sweeper for whom sun isn't necessary? I'll test this soon anyhow, looks pretty solid to me.

 

[Bad Ass]

i would suggest removing the slash for sunny day, since tangrowth is not really a great standalone sweeper out of sun (things like venusaur and exeggutor are better standalone grass sweepers). also, i would slash power whip with sleep powder and hidden power fire, since stuff walls the all special set but power whip can remove these threats (lookin at chansey, clefable, etc). put it as the second slash (hp fire and sleep powder first). also add rash as a second slash, since surfs are the only special attacks you're getting in on, and with sun up the damage is minimal

also for the evs you should add a second slash of 32 atk / 252 spatk / 224 speed to go along with power whip and rash. it outspeeds swellow and friends under the sun, which is all you need. i'd make the main spread 32 hp / 252 spatk / 224 speed since really there is nothing in the 126-131 range.

anyway, i have had a lot of success with sweeper tangrowth, so implement this stuff if there is no objection to these changes and i'll stamp it

 

[SlimMan]

I'm a bit confused with this set. Is it supposed to be a sweeper on a dedicated sun team or a standalone sweeper for whom sun isn't necessary? I'll test this soon anyhow, looks pretty solid to me.

This Tangrowth is supposed to work with Sunny Day support, though not necessarily on a full-fedged Sunny Day team. However, getting Sunny Day in without having a team built around it is tough, so it'll generally be used on Sunny Day teams. I can see how the fact that it has Sunny Day could confuse you, but it's simply there as a back-up in the event that Tangrowth loses his teammate support. In short, this Tangrowth can stand alone, but really excels on a Sunny Day team. Also, yes, he does need Sunny Day in effect to function.

i would suggest removing the slash for sunny day, since tangrowth is not really a great standalone sweeper out of sun (things like venusaur and exeggutor are better standalone grass sweepers). also, i would slash power whip with sleep powder and hidden power fire, since stuff walls the all special set but power whip can remove these threats (lookin at chansey, clefable, etc). put it as the second slash (hp fire and sleep powder first). also add rash as a second slash, since surfs are the only special attacks you're getting in on, and with sun up the damage is minimal

also for the evs you should add a second slash of 32 atk / 252 spatk / 224 speed to go along with power whip and rash. it outspeeds swellow and friends under the sun, which is all you need. i'd make the main spread 32 hp / 252 spatk / 224 speed since really there is nothing in the 126-131 range.

anyway, i have had a lot of success with sweeper tangrowth, so implement this stuff if there is no objection to these changes and i'll stamp it

I won't argue that Synthesis and Sunny Day have their flaws. They're very hard to find a turn to use.

I really hadn't considered Power Whip, due to the utter lack of additional coverage. But I have noticed the tendency of Chansey to wall this set, which, as you said, Power Whip would KO. Rash nature makes sense, but I'll have to make sure to mention that it should only be used with Power Whip.

On the EVs, I use the extra speed to out-speed Rhyperior before he can Megahorn you, assuming that Sunlight is not in effect, or that he has achieved a Rock Polish. However, I've already got a variation of your spread in the AC, which means that we drew similar conclusions, Therefore, I do believe that it gets a slash.

edit: put in your changes BadAss. Thanks :)

 

[uragg]

This set is good. Move the alternate EV spread to AC and state that it (and the Rash nature) is for use with Power Whip, be sure to mention sun support in AC because it's huge for this set to function, take out Growth (it's really like OO, if even that), change the EV spread to the one bad ass has, as you can't hurt Rhyperior outside of sun, and make a mention of Tangrowth's excellent physical bulk, which allows it to switch in rather easily an a wide array of attacks and start sweeping, even with no investment. Once these changes are made, I'll be happy to stamp it. good work.

STAMP THIS SHIT