Pokémon Tapu Koko

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> "Bulky Ground types mostly. Even with HP Ice and Grass Knot it still can't touch most of them."

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-Therian: 328-390 (86 - 102.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 312-369 (74.2 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 255-302 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 317-374 (88.7 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

> "I actually think both can drop to UU"

What is wrong with people in this thread ?!...
 

Albacore

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Excadrill is literally the only relevant ground-type that isn't 2HKOed by either HP Ice or Grass Knot, so no, Tapu Koko is not beaten by "most ground types".

And once again, not having a ton of power on coverage moves isn't a big deal when your secondary coverage already hits everything it needs to hard enough. I suppose you can beat all sets by running a combo of Gliscor and Ferrothorn, but neither of these are reliably siwtchins on their own. Tyranitar is straight-up 2HKOed by Dazzling Gleam after SR unless it runs a ton of bulk so why you bother to mention it as a check I have no idea. Excadrill beats it, as does Marowak, but that's pretty much it ouside of Chansey. Tapu Koko doesn't miss NP much becuase it breaks down teams fine without it, and it actually sets up more reliably with Thundurus thanks to CM+Roost.

The fact of the matter is, I have literally not see an single Thundurus since I've started playing SuMo, and I'm pretty sure the reason is that the vast majority of teams benefit more from using Tapu Koko, given that it's much better vs offense, better at running through teams once Electric resists have been removed, doesn't require a hazard remover, isn't complete Greninja and Weavile bait, and is just generally far more difficult to play around. It's very hard to justify using Thundurus on any serious team as long as Tapu Koko is avalible

tldr; if you think Tapu Koko is going anywhere but Ubers, you're out of your goddamn mind
 
I feel like Life Orb-less sets should get proper calcs, since you may be using Terrain Extender for the rest of the team.
 
It's new toy syndrome as much as anything else. Tapu Koko has an awesome design that has been popular with the fan base since its reveal, and as a new gen mon that also shows promise competitively it's no surprise that Thundurus has taken the backseat right now. I still think it's way too premature to be calling for the ban hammer when the metagame is unstable as hell and numerous checks are emerging for this thing. A lot of the calcs I'm seeing are from coverage moves that assume perfect prediction on the switch in. Many Pokemon look broken when calcs are presented in such a way. In practise it's often less black and white.

Ban discussion aside, CM + Roost is a fantastic wincon from testing, although I always end up missing volt switch in the early game. Koko is such an incredible user of the move because it's even more mindless than usual thanks to the terrain boost. I'm going to try a taunt + NM set and see if it has any merit vs. stall.
 
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Excadrill is literally the only relevant ground-type that isn't 2HKOed by either HP Ice or Grass Knot, so no, Tapu Koko is not beaten by "most ground types".

And once again, not having a ton of power on coverage moves isn't a big deal when your secondary coverage already hits everything it needs to hard enough. I suppose you can beat all sets by running a combo of Gliscor and Ferrothorn, but neither of these are reliably siwtchins on their own. Tyranitar is straight-up 2HKOed by Dazzling Gleam after SR unless it runs a ton of bulk so why you bother to mention it as a check I have no idea. Excadrill beats it, as does Marowak, but that's pretty much it ouside of Chansey. Tapu Koko doesn't miss NP much becuase it breaks down teams fine without it, and it actually sets up more reliably with Thundurus thanks to CM+Roost.

The fact of the matter is, I have literally not see an single Thundurus since I've started playing SuMo, and I'm pretty sure the reason is that the vast majority of teams benefit more from using Tapu Koko, given that it's much better vs offense, better at running through teams once Electric resists have been removed, doesn't require a hazard remover, isn't complete Greninja and Weavile bait, and is just generally far more difficult to play around. It's very hard to justify using Thundurus on any serious team as long as Tapu Koko is avalible

tldr; if you think Tapu Koko is going anywhere but Ubers, you're out of your goddamn mind
Agree with everything but your presumption it's going to be banned to ubers. It's possible but let's not jump the gun when the meta is currently dealing with borked crap like Aegislash. I feel like if this thing gets banned it'd be down the line then anytime soon.
 
So I know it has amazing offensive viability, but has anyone tried using it as a support set? It's particularly nice for Porygon-Z with Thunderbolt Z-Conversion for the Electric Terrain boost. Nature's Madness is amazing at whittling down walls. It doesn't have much bulk to speak of, but if it's setting screens anyways it'll be able to take some hits, and can Volt Switch out in a pinch while doing a hefty bit of damage.

In general Nature's Madness is pretty interesting on this guy.
 
Excadrill is literally the only relevant ground-type that isn't 2HKOed by either HP Ice or Grass Knot, so no, Tapu Koko is not beaten by "most ground types".

And once again, not having a ton of power on coverage moves isn't a big deal when your secondary coverage already hits everything it needs to hard enough. I suppose you can beat all sets by running a combo of Gliscor and Ferrothorn, but neither of these are reliably siwtchins on their own. Tyranitar is straight-up 2HKOed by Dazzling Gleam after SR unless it runs a ton of bulk so why you bother to mention it as a check I have no idea. Excadrill beats it, as does Marowak, but that's pretty much it ouside of Chansey. Tapu Koko doesn't miss NP much becuase it breaks down teams fine without it, and it actually sets up more reliably with Thundurus thanks to CM+Roost.

The fact of the matter is, I have literally not see an single Thundurus since I've started playing SuMo, and I'm pretty sure the reason is that the vast majority of teams benefit more from using Tapu Koko, given that it's much better vs offense, better at running through teams once Electric resists have been removed, doesn't require a hazard remover, isn't complete Greninja and Weavile bait, and is just generally far more difficult to play around. It's very hard to justify using Thundurus on any serious team as long as Tapu Koko is avalible

tldr; if you think Tapu Koko is going anywhere but Ubers, you're out of your goddamn mind
Charizard-X beats all variants of it if bulky set (after mega-ing of course), Excadrill as you mentions beats it as does alolan-Marowak, Amoongus & Tangrowth both have basically no issue with the special variant and the physical variant with Brave Bird is just inferior and can be beaten (in addition mixed sets aren't super effective as of now), Raikou (especially AV set) has no issue with it (even though it sucks :p atm), Mega-Venusaur easily deals with it and this is just me using ORAS pokemon and those in OU. I have used a spdef Decidueye with roost and Spirit Shackle to beat Tapu Koko, Bulky Tapu Bulu's (namely Spdef but even those with just simple max hp max def can deal with it adequately) easily handle Tapu Koko overwriting its electric terrain and forcing it out for fear of death, niche pokemon like Rotom-Heat handle it even better resisting both stabs and any physical sets, even more niche counters exist but those aren't viable in OU (like lanturn).

This is why I perceive tapu koko as having been put on a pedestal unduly as it is just performing well because there is no meta especially with various broken pokemon sticking in the tier as it is still new and a lot of pokemon that should be good being hindered as such. It is certainly a good pokemon, that much is undeniable and maybe suspect worthy at one point or another but everyone is taking things way, way, way to far with this hyping.
 
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I think this mon will be good for stalling and defensive teams because it has a free "heal bell" for teammates who rely on rest for recovery. I really believe people will make this work at some point during the gen 7 meta because it will potentially be very strong. Rest on your Tyranitar, then switch into koko who can also then pivot to other teammates afterwards with volt switch or u-turn, which is a ton faster than switching in your cleric, clicking heal bell, then switching out. 3 turns vs 1 without attacking

Tapu Koko also has roost to keep its hp up, and a respectable defensive typing along with speed that remains useful against offensive pokemon with minimal investment. Even though it can be argued to be unreliable thanks to not being able to rest on Electric Terrain itself, you can either a) just deal with it and reap the benefits of a super-speedy wake-up, or b) just use another tapu on your team (not fini). Bulu has a decent synergy with defensive teams along with resisting eq, and doubling up a poison and steel weakness wont spell the end of the world, and both ensure that the other tapu will get full use out of their terrain similar to the zard-y tyranitar combination

edit:this is based off of my foggy and perhaps incorrect memory that et wakes up sleepers
 
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Excadrill is literally the only relevant ground-type that isn't 2HKOed by either HP Ice or Grass Knot, so no, Tapu Koko is not beaten by "most ground types".

And once again, not having a ton of power on coverage moves isn't a big deal when your secondary coverage already hits everything it needs to hard enough. I suppose you can beat all sets by running a combo of Gliscor and Ferrothorn, but neither of these are reliably siwtchins on their own. Tyranitar is straight-up 2HKOed by Dazzling Gleam after SR unless it runs a ton of bulk so why you bother to mention it as a check I have no idea. Excadrill beats it, as does Marowak, but that's pretty much it ouside of Chansey.
There you go. Ttar is TWOHKOed. Bulky Lando's and Garchomps are TWOHKOed by HP Ice. Do you know what Thundurus does? It OHKOs. Meaning Thundurus can afford to come in on these, outright threaten them out, something Tapu Koko can't do and will only get itself KOed. You know what an OHKO vs 2HKO means? It means you can't switch you Bulky Lando-T in on a predicted Tbolt then force Thundurus out, something you can do vs Tapu Koko. You can't send these out at full health vs Thundurus, something you can easily do vs Tapu Koko. Gliscor and Ferrothorn are VERY popular mons that give Tapu Koko much, much more trouble than they give Thundurus. All of these advantages are potentially outcome changing in actual matches, so think about that rather than theorytical "not a check", "2HKO" bullshit.

Tapu Koko doesn't miss NP much becuase it breaks down teams fine without it, and it actually sets up more reliably with Thundurus thanks to CM+Roost.
Are you fucking serious? I would list all the mons that NP LO Thund breaks but CM+Roost Tapu doesn't but I don't feel like wasting a few hours. CM+3 Atks Tapu with Hazards down comes a bit closer but CM+Roost? What's your other coverage? Dazzling Gleam? Lol



The fact of the matter is, I have literally not see an single Thundurus since I've started playing SuMo, and I'm pretty sure the reason is that the vast majority of teams benefit more from using Tapu Koko, given that it's much better vs offense, better at running through teams once Electric resists have been removed, doesn't require a hazard remover, isn't complete Greninja and Weavile bait, and is just generally far more difficult to play around. It's very hard to justify using Thundurus on any serious team as long as Tapu Koko is avalible
Uh, heard of new toy syndrome bro? I definitely agree with the later parts which is why I said Tapu Koko isnt a better Thundy nor is Thundy a better Tapu Koko. Those are very good advantages and surely warrants Tapu Koko a strong place in OU despite already having Thundy. I'm not gonna argue with the last statement because once you lose a bunch of games due to Scarf Landorus-T clicking EQ vs your team late game, Pheromosa gaining that speed boost late game and chopping up your mons (Priority Twave?), or that Zard-X taking your mon's lives after a DD + everything I said in my first paragraph, you'll change your mind and come straight back to this thread to type it all out.

tldr; if you think Tapu Koko is going anywhere but Ubers, you're out of your goddamn mind
No. If you think it's going to Ubers then it's you, who's out of his goddamn mind.

Charizard-X beats all variants of it if bulky set (after mega-ing of course), Excadrill as you mentions beats it as does alolan-Marowak, Amoongus & Tangrowth both has basically no issue with the special variant and the physical variant with Brave Bird is just inferior and can be beaten (in addition mixed sets aren't super effective as of now), Raikou (especially AV set) has no issue with it (even though it sucks :p atm), Mega-Venusaur easily deals with it and this is just me using ORAS pokemon and those in OU. I have used a spdef Decidueye with roost and Spirit Shackle to beat Tapu Koko's Bulky Tapu Bulu's (namely Spdef ) easily handle Tapu Koko overwriting its electric terrain and forcing it out for fear of death, niche pokemon like Rotom-Heat handle it even better resisting both stabs and any physical sets, even more niche counters exist but those arent viable in ou (like lanturn). This is why I perceive tapu koko as having been put on a pedestal unduly as it is just performing well because there is no meta especially with various broken pokemon sticking in the tier as it is still new and a lot of pokemon that should be good being hindered as such.
Yeah, this man is on fucking point, brilliantly said and explained. Fellas, if you wanna see a truly good analytical mind of a pokemon's performance Giagantic is the man.
 
I noticed Ferrothorn is also a pain for this (it doesn't get FB like Lele). Could HP Fire be worth thinking about? Or, idk, pairing it with Magnezone? At least Koko's a decent Ferro lure for stuff that sets up on it (I can only think of SR Tran off the top of my head for now lol I am sleepy).
 
Great thing about Koko is that he doesn't "have" to have the answer to everything. He's so fast you can U-Turn/V-Switch out if you can't solve a problem. So just be concerned with what you "want" him to be able to handle, and let the rest of your team handle the rest.
Which is why I like koko more as an offensive pivot than it is as a say, set up sweeper.
 
Right now I'm theorizing a potential Tapu Koko + Thundurus electric spam core. The mixed wallbreaker set seems to synergize well with Koko's AoA set, and could work like the MManectric+Thundy teams from last gen.

An (untested) example:
Tapu Koko @ Zap Plate / Expert Belt / Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Grass Knot / Brave Bird

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 68 Atk / 188 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Grass Knot

Either of them can run Grass or Flying coverage, so it's your choice what runs what. I think Greninja would also work well here, as it can force out Ground and Grass-types and set Spikes. Greninja is a huge threat in and of itself, so I doubt the opponent would ever use their recovery move on their defensive wall when it gives a chance for Greninja to come in scot-free - meaning Spikes/U-turn damage should rack up freely.
I haven't studied what stall and balance looks like in this meta yet, so I can't really list defensive threats to the core other than the obvious Clefable and Grass types. Pheromosa also obviously outspeeds both of them, so you have to run Aegislash like every other team I guess...

Anyone have any feedback for me? I want to build around this but I haven't fought a single battle or built a team in gen 7 yet and I might need help on moveset and Pokemon choices.

EDIT: Removed the bit about Thundurus using electric terrain
 
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Right now I'm theorizing a potential Tapu Koko + Thundurus electric spam core. Electric Terrain would also affect Thundurus as well, so it could potentially have Electric Terrain + Life Orb boosted TBolts! Potentially. Although it's hard to realistically expect that thundy could really take advantage of Electric Terrain, the mixed wallbreaker set seems to synergize well with Koko's AoA set, and could work like the MManectric+Thundy teams from last gen.

An (untested) example:
Tapu Koko @ Zap Plate / Expert Belt / Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Grass Knot / Brave Bird

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 68 Atk / 188 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Grass Knot

Either of them can run Grass or Flying coverage, so it's your choice what runs what. I think Greninja would also work well here, as it can force out Ground and Grass-types and set Spikes. Greninja is a huge threat in and of itself, so I doubt the opponent would ever use their recovery move on their defensive wall when it gives a chance for Greninja to come in scot-free - meaning Spikes/U-turn damage should rack up freely.
I haven't studied what stall and balance looks like in this meta yet, so I can't really list defensive threats to the core other than the obvious Clefable and Grass types. Pheromosa also obviously outspeeds both of them, so you have to run Aegislash like every other team I guess...

Anyone have any feedback for me? I want to build around this but I haven't fought a single battle or built a team in gen 7 yet and I might need help on moveset and Pokemon choices.
As neat as this would be, A-Raichu would outclass Thundurus due to actually using the Terrain, and being able to kill Poison types that threaten Koko. If you don't wanna use A-Raichu, you still be better off with a Grounded-mon, like M-Ampharos or Raikou.
 
I am currently running the physical variant of Tapu Koko with the Choice band, full investment in attack and speed, with the moves wild charge, brave bird, u-turn, and roost. He is capable of one shotting most things, and is a great lead when Toxapex leads too. Wild Charge one shots Toxapex and that makes the match all the easier. I have been running Koko with A-Raichu and the core is pretty good. I have HP ice on Raichu because we were not doing so well against Zygarde Complete. I see a lot of momentum for the special variant, but I am a enjoying the physical one a lot.
 
I am currently running the physical variant of Tapu Koko with the Choice band, full investment in attack and speed, with the moves wild charge, brave bird, u-turn, and roost. He is capable of one shotting most things, and is a great lead when Toxapex leads too. Wild Charge one shots Toxapex and that makes the match all the easier. I have been running Koko with A-Raichu and the core is pretty good. I have HP ice on Raichu because we were not doing so well against Zygarde Complete. I see a lot of momentum for the special variant, but I am a enjoying the physical one a lot.
Why would you ever run roost on a CB set? Like, yeah, you can get a free roost up when you force a switch, but your giving your opponent all the momentum. If you really want to be able to give it a second life, just run Z-parting shot Persian-A.
 
Why would you ever run roost on a CB set? Like, yeah, you can get a free roost up when you force a switch, but your giving your opponent all the momentum. If you really want to be able to give it a second life, just run Z-parting shot Persian-A.
You right. I was running Quick Attack until I saw the Roost option is someone else's post and switched it onto Koko without taking into mind the CB. Maybe I will keep Quick attack or find some other physical option.
 
Physical Tapu Koko is a good idea but CB is not not when you lack the coverage. CB Tapu Koko is just bair for Land-T, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Hippo, pretty much any bulky electric resist bsides grass types. The way to run Physical Koko is to run Wild Charge/BB/U TUrn with LO, Ebelt or Zap Plate run HP ice/HP Fire/grass Knot on the final slot depending on what you wanna kill.
 
Is Volt Switch and Tbolt on the same moveset really optimal? It seems to me that, as the additional coverage options are so good, it would be better to run one of those.
 
Is Volt Switch and Tbolt on the same moveset really optimal? It seems to me that, as the additional coverage options are so good, it would be better to run one of those.
Volt Switch has good utility in providing momentum and hitting hard under electric terrain, however U-turn is a superior option because you don't have to worry about ground types or Alolan-Marowak. As far as coverage, Tapu Koko hits hard enough with t-bolt that you don't really need much else, given you can always click U-turn and switch to a counter.
 
What about...

Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Wild Charge
- Frustration / Brave Bird
- Roost / Nature's Madness

Flyinium Z turns Mirror Move into a one off Swords Dance so long as a move has been played, turning Wild Charge into a complete and utter barnstormer - able to do heavy damage to a crap load of stuff, and being helped all the more by the fact both Toxapex and Skarmory are weak to it. Mirror Move itself, while obviously a complete gimmick move when considering it without the Z-attack boost, works acceptably with Koko's speed - easily letting you predict what move you will be copying (stealth rock, a status move, ghost move against a Ghost type, etc.), barring priority. Frustration provides nice recoil-less coverage for other Electric types and Grass or Dragon types, while Brave Bird can be used to hit certain types harder and as a nuke incase you want to use Supersonic Strike over the Z-Mirror Move attack boost. Roost allows you to heal off recoil damage, while Nature's Madness can work with Frustration to get through other walls without the need for recoil (e.g. Chansey, who it has a good chance to 2HKO recoil free).
 

ehT

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U-Turn is better than Volt Switch because (a) you can gain momentum vs Elec immunities, and (b) you don't explode the moment you predict incorrectly vs Duggy, although people have been running Scarf Duggy specifically to take on Koko, which says something about just how obnoxious both of those mons are.
 
I'm beginning to understand the arguments for why Tapu Koko is so damn strong. Yes, he has a few brutal hard counters like Lightning Rod Alola-Marowak and general tanky/wall Pokemon (Mega-Venusaur, unless the Koko is carrying Brave Bird). But a fast pivot move, either Volt Switch or U-Turn, means he can scoot right on out of targets that wall him (U-Turn in the case of immunities) and gain momentum - we already see how annoying this is with Genesect and Pheromosa.

Now, imagine this against an offensive team. Similar to ORAS Mega-Lopunny or Weavile, Tapu Koko can outpace a good portion of offensive threats and straight up knock them out or severely cripple them. And if he can't hit them with a coverage move, again, he can pivot on out. Against offense, its even worse - you are far less likely to see Alola-Marowak or another defensive counter on, say, Hyper Offense. Personally, I would never say Tapu Koko is as threatening as Pheromosa, Aegislash, or Genesect right now, but he's up there.

Strangely enough, this thing is walled moreso by Alola-Dugtrio than regular Dugtrio lol
 
Is Electro Ball ever a viable choice over Thunderbolt? Not too familiar with the current meta, so I don't know if EB would net any valuable KOs that TB couldn't.
 
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