That'll hurts more than fixes honestly.
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Tapu Lele Discussion
- Thread starter Nexus
- Start date
That'll hurts more than fixes honestly.
If He does I feel there will be a rise in Nature's Madness+Tapu Z crystal
This thing has a lot of stuff going for it. Psychic Terrain+Calm Mind lets it rip through stall, immunity to priority moves gives it an edge against offense (as well as its teammates,) good sp. attack, good special bulk, I wouldn't be surprised if it was suspected. But, I feel like it has enough holding it back, like its low physical bulk and mediocre speed, and of course we really need to play with everything at once to see if something is actually broken, or if there are enough counters going around.
MGarde is somewhat faster (and with the mega-evolving turn order change, this is true in all situations,) has a stronger Fairy STAB even factoring in LO which also penetrates subs, and has a much larger movepool (which includes Wisp.)
I don't feel like it devalues Mega Gardevoir too much, since I think they'll make good partners. I think Scarf Lele+Mega Garde will be a pretty good core, since whatever checks to them your opponent brings will really be pressured with two of them beating down on them. One of them running Focus Blast also gives the other the option to run Shadow Ball, which makes Jirachi and AV Metagross less reliable checks, though both need to watch for Wisp anyway.
Admittedly it's true that in most situations where you'd use Mega Gardevoir, Lele is a good enough or better replacement, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's better in every way, or that you'd never want to use Mega Garde. A lot of megas appreciate the protection from priority, but I think Mega Garde synergizes with Lele as a whole the best.
MGarde is somewhat faster (and with the mega-evolving turn order change, this is true in all situations,) has a stronger Fairy STAB even factoring in LO which also penetrates subs, and has a much larger movepool (which includes Wisp.)
I don't feel like it devalues Mega Gardevoir too much, since I think they'll make good partners. I think Scarf Lele+Mega Garde will be a pretty good core, since whatever checks to them your opponent brings will really be pressured with two of them beating down on them. One of them running Focus Blast also gives the other the option to run Shadow Ball, which makes Jirachi and AV Metagross less reliable checks, though both need to watch for Wisp anyway.
Admittedly it's true that in most situations where you'd use Mega Gardevoir, Lele is a good enough or better replacement, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's better in every way, or that you'd never want to use Mega Garde. A lot of megas appreciate the protection from priority, but I think Mega Garde synergizes with Lele as a whole the best.
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Are you really saying pokemon like Victini, Jirachi and Hoopa can't touch Tapu Lele? I know it's strong people but all the pokemon that check Mega Gardevoir with the possible exception of Scizor & it's Mega are pokemon that will check Tapu Lele.
The problem is not even "checking" Lele...
The problem is that Specs Lele will for sure kill at least one Pokémon, due to being that strong AND offering good team support on Psychic Terrain.
Lele + Pursuit Trapper/Dugtrio/Magnezone + Secondary Psychic-type will be pretty common once people realize the sheer power of this thing. Lele is legit scary.
AND if everyone needs to run a Jirachi just to make sure Lele spam don't rolls you over, we'd just have a notable case of a over-centralized meta/mon.
The problem is that Specs Lele will for sure kill at least one Pokémon, due to being that strong AND offering good team support on Psychic Terrain.
Lele + Pursuit Trapper/Dugtrio/Magnezone + Secondary Psychic-type will be pretty common once people realize the sheer power of this thing. Lele is legit scary.
AND if everyone needs to run a Jirachi just to make sure Lele spam don't rolls you over, we'd just have a notable case of a over-centralized meta/mon.
Special focused, Special Attacker being the highest and has decent Speed. Being a Psychic and Fairy this is probably for the best. Not sure why they gave it a higher Attack over Defense and HP, though then again Lele is a psychopath who'll hurt you as much as heal you.
Since Nature's Madness removes 50% of the target's current HP I'm going to consider it a utility, a move for when Koko doesn't have something else that can seriously hurt its opponent (I wouldn't be surprised if many sets exclude it). It has plenty of options for STABs and also gets Thunderbolt/Thunder, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball. Utilities gives it Psychic Terrain (because GF suddenly decided it hates priority), Aromatherapy, Mean Look, Skill Swap, Calm Mind, and dual screens.
Lele has all the tools it needs, which is more than can be said about some of the other Tapu.
Since Nature's Madness removes 50% of the target's current HP I'm going to consider it a utility, a move for when Koko doesn't have something else that can seriously hurt its opponent (I wouldn't be surprised if many sets exclude it). It has plenty of options for STABs and also gets Thunderbolt/Thunder, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball. Utilities gives it Psychic Terrain (because GF suddenly decided it hates priority), Aromatherapy, Mean Look, Skill Swap, Calm Mind, and dual screens.
Lele has all the tools it needs, which is more than can be said about some of the other Tapu.
Consider this: Psychic terrain is not all benefits. All priority moves will fail, and so bringing Tapu lele is a commitment to having no priority users.
wow then its even worse...
i did not think of them, and while they WILL harm Tapu lele back (if he stays and does not switch out with impunity), they will get damaged by a lot in the process, either by its other stab (its fairy being weaker than Mgarde does not mean its WEAK alltogheter. cause its not weak. 130 spa+lifeorb +stab hurts.) or coverage.
I know thats what wallbreakers do, but the problem is that is relatively fast for a wallbreaker AND is also inmune to priority. that reduces a lot the pool of pokemon that can check this thing. and doesnt get off when Tapu lele switches, seriusly , pair it with Mkazam and you are done. psychic spam for days
And i want to seriusly know if pursuit gets stopped in psychic terrain
Psychic Terrain only stops priority moves, it doesn't affect Pursuit.
Having to run a strong Steel type in OU is nothing new. I don't know why everyone's already freaking out when this thing is literally alt. Gardervoir and that was nowhere near broken. Psychic Terrain can be removed by the other Tapus which are going to be everywhere anyway, running it also means limiting your own use of priority. Let's not talk about bans just yet.
Having to run a strong Steel type in OU is nothing new. I don't know why everyone's already freaking out when this thing is literally alt. Gardervoir and that was nowhere near broken. Psychic Terrain can be removed by the other Tapus which are going to be everywhere anyway, running it also means limiting your own use of priority. Let's not talk about bans just yet.
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This thing is truly a beast. Choice Specs with 4 attacks (Moonblast/ Psyshock/ Focus Blast/ Shadow Ball) almost has no safe switch-in:
I used Gardevoir with modified stats, critical hit with Psyshock = Psychic terrain
- Choice Band Scizor:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor on a critical hit: 147-174 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Mega Scizor (bulky version):
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Scizor: 155-183 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Chansey:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- SpD Jirachi:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 190-224 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Mega Metagross:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (pre-Mega)
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 242-286 (80.3 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Suicune:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- V.S. itself:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Klefki:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Klefki on a critical hit: 159-187 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 154-182 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also Pursuit from Scarf Ttar cannot OHKO, but Adamant CB can most the time (in case Tapu Lele is locked into Psychic move)
I used Gardevoir with modified stats, critical hit with Psyshock = Psychic terrain
- Choice Band Scizor:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor on a critical hit: 147-174 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Mega Scizor (bulky version):
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Scizor: 155-183 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Chansey:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- SpD Jirachi:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 190-224 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- Mega Metagross:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-338 (95 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (pre-Mega)
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 242-286 (80.3 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Suicune:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- V.S. itself:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Klefki:
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Klefki on a critical hit: 159-187 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 154-182 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also Pursuit from Scarf Ttar cannot OHKO, but Adamant CB can most the time (in case Tapu Lele is locked into Psychic move)
Specs Lele seems poor because Psychic/Psyshock and Focus Blast too are horrible to be locked in. Life Orb should be run on an ofensive set since I dont think any Ohko, 2HKO is changed.
I'm not able to find any switch in for this thing though so ... i dont know
I'm not able to find any switch in for this thing though so ... i dont know
Specs guarantee 2hko on Suicune, SpD Jirachi and Ohko pre-mega Metagross, Tapu Lele itself, all after SR.
The thing with LO is that Lele gets worn out too fast whereas you might want to abuse its good bulk to tank neutral/resisted hits. If not using Specs, I would use Leftovers + CM/Taunt instead of LO.
Scarfed Lele's going to easily be the best revenge-killer in the game given that Psychic Terrain is still up when it's in. Since the terrain itself not only gives it a Specs-like boost to its Psychic attacks but also blocks it from priority, it'll be strong and difficult to revenge-kill back unless you have a faster Scarfed mon. It'll hit hard and be fast at the same time. Marshadow can't even Shadow Sneak it while Scarfed Lele will revenge it, and Bisharp just dies to a Moonblast with no hope in Sucker Punching it back.
Auto-Psychic Terrain will also be HUGE for fast, yet frail mons, since Psychic Fangs (gets boosted by the terrain as well) Mega Sharpedo can't be revenge-killed my Mach Punch users as well as Mega Diancie no longer having to fear Scizor's Bullet Punch while inside the Psychic Terrain, allowing it to HP Fire it back. Hyper Offense teams will love this thing blocking priority as well.
Edit: +1 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 286-337 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Modest Scarf can still stallbreak and be a menace to offensive teams at the same time...it'll just be scared of Scarf Lando-T.
Auto-Psychic Terrain will also be HUGE for fast, yet frail mons, since Psychic Fangs (gets boosted by the terrain as well) Mega Sharpedo can't be revenge-killed my Mach Punch users as well as Mega Diancie no longer having to fear Scizor's Bullet Punch while inside the Psychic Terrain, allowing it to HP Fire it back. Hyper Offense teams will love this thing blocking priority as well.
Edit: +1 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 286-337 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Modest Scarf can still stallbreak and be a menace to offensive teams at the same time...it'll just be scared of Scarf Lando-T.
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People are overestimating the power of Psychic Terrain without it's respective item. I've seen Sharpedo be used a lot as a good partner for Tapu Lele so let's break down how it would go:
- Tapu Lele Switches In. Activates Psychic Terrain (Turn 1)
- Sharpedo Switches In. Easier said than done as it's still very frail and Tapu can't help it get in (Turn 2)
- Sharpedo uses Protect. In order to get the first Speed Boost (Turn 3)
- Sharpedo Megavolves and start attacking. (Two turns remaining)
So MegaSharpedo gets two turns to attack, without fearing priority and with boosted Psychic Fangs. That is without taking into account that every turn that Tapu Lele stays on the field is one less for Psychic Terrain for the other pokemon and if you choose to extend it then you won't be able to break through everything as some of this calcs seem to show.
- Tapu Lele Switches In. Activates Psychic Terrain (Turn 1)
- Sharpedo Switches In. Easier said than done as it's still very frail and Tapu can't help it get in (Turn 2)
- Sharpedo uses Protect. In order to get the first Speed Boost (Turn 3)
- Sharpedo Megavolves and start attacking. (Two turns remaining)
So MegaSharpedo gets two turns to attack, without fearing priority and with boosted Psychic Fangs. That is without taking into account that every turn that Tapu Lele stays on the field is one less for Psychic Terrain for the other pokemon and if you choose to extend it then you won't be able to break through everything as some of this calcs seem to show.
Very few Steel types can take a move from Specs Lele without dying afterwards. If someone needs either Metagross or Jirachi to stop Lele, then the mon is over-centralizing.
Plus, trapping support can deal with them as well.
M-Gardevoir's perk was not a strong Psychic attack - while Lele can hit harder on both Defense and Special Defense of a target (Psyshock and Psychic), offer good team support on Psychic Terrain and dizimates switch-ins due to its coverage (Dark can't switch in, Steel are weak to Focus Blast - the ones who are not are trapped via Pursuit/Dugtrio).
Also, if I need to run another Tapu and switch it in AFTER Lele comes out, I'd still take some heavy damage. Also nothing stops Lele from entering in AFTER another Tapu is on the field, overwriting their Terrain with Psychic one.
Lele will be pretty obnoxious to deal.
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 224 SpD Mew: 132-156 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sample set I did for Celesteela with mixed bulk for being a glue for hail. Functions as a counter for Tyranitar, Excadrill, Swampert-M, and, as it happens, Tapu Lele.
+1 0 Atk Mew Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alakazam as Tapu Lele, Mew as Celesteela. Calcs are maybe a tad off for the boosting mechanics of terrain, but the 3HKO vs. the OHKO with Heavy Slam are a thing.
e: Magearna got similar bulk; Lele is a great nuke, but not as uncouterable as it's made out to be.
Sample set I did for Celesteela with mixed bulk for being a glue for hail. Functions as a counter for Tyranitar, Excadrill, Swampert-M, and, as it happens, Tapu Lele.
+1 0 Atk Mew Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alakazam as Tapu Lele, Mew as Celesteela. Calcs are maybe a tad off for the boosting mechanics of terrain, but the 3HKO vs. the OHKO with Heavy Slam are a thing.
e: Magearna got similar bulk; Lele is a great nuke, but not as uncouterable as it's made out to be.
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Just looking for some clarification: Does Psychic Terrain prevent grounded 'Mons from being hit by priority, or does it prevent grounded 'Mons from using priority? Basically, will it prevent Thundurus T-Wave and the like?
Based on typing, Assault Vest Alolan Muk might make a decent check.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 160-189 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
100+ Atk Drapion Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 414-488 (147.3 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 160-189 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
100+ Atk Drapion Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 414-488 (147.3 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Without recovery and susceptibility to entry hazards, it will most likely be chipped away into oblivion. Nobody's going to leave Tapu Lele in against Alolan Muk!
Probably something along the lines of Mew or Jirachi or Assault Vest Excadrill. If Aegislash stays, it will make a killer check as well!
m-sharpedo isn't going to be the scariest use of this pokemon's potential, though. this is like saying scarf tyranitar is a waste of time because stoutland can't take full advantage of it, the point of it is that it's a powerful threat on its own that can then make other really strong pokemon (pheromosa, mega alakazam, etc) even stronger
I think it may need to be considered to have the move Pshcyic Terrain with Scarf.
Auto-terrain is great, but if you want to have another pokemon take advantage of this in singles you will need to take make a switch which will damage whatever that pokemon is.
something you could do is just get as many hits in with Tapu Lele using auto-phsychic terrain, and if you see that youre about to die, and youre faster than the opponent use a suicide phsycic terrain for the next pokemon. essentially giving you 10 turns instead of 5. Just saying 5 only gets you so far
Auto-terrain is great, but if you want to have another pokemon take advantage of this in singles you will need to take make a switch which will damage whatever that pokemon is.
something you could do is just get as many hits in with Tapu Lele using auto-phsychic terrain, and if you see that youre about to die, and youre faster than the opponent use a suicide phsycic terrain for the next pokemon. essentially giving you 10 turns instead of 5. Just saying 5 only gets you so far
I feel like this should get a good amount of AG usage as well given the prevalence of extreme speed and klefki. Psychic surge could easily shut those down.
You can't use Psychic Terrain with a scarf unless you're planning on spending all your turns on the field juut spamming a useless move. You could with Life Orb but if the terrain is what you're really interested in then Terrain Extender would be better.