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Metagame Tera Override [LCotM October]

Solosis said:
Tera Override is Conducting a Tiering Survey!​
Please fill out the survey (click on "Tiering Survey" in the heading to access the link) and provide us with feedback about the metagame :quagchamppogsire:
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I'd like you to know I really appreciate the last question on the survey!
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:unown-exclamation: Man Rambles :unown-exclamation:

Alright I'm here to talk about a team I made highest with it was top 20 took some times to see the meta shaping and am here to discuss my thoughts, ideas, and share data.

First I'll give thoughts on the mons and finally the team and how it fits into current meta​
:Excadrill:
As I've seen others already say before Excadrill is an excellent mon I have personally used it as a mold breaker hazard setter/spinner set though I've seen others succeed with it as a Sand Rush sweeper. Overall though while the Sand offensive set can be good I believe the Moldbreaker set is currently just much more consistent in it's game to game performance.
:Slowking-Galar:
He's the goat. As usual chilly reception is such an incredible move even more so now that you can choose what type gets the defense boost. A bulky pivot with high special attack and regenerator it's excellence is self evident and it is even more useful now to stop other weather strategies.
:Ceruledge:
Alright this might be my first controversial take however Ceruledge is an excellent pokemon though in a role different from what some might think. Ceruledge shines not through a sweeper set but through a bulky flashfire set with tera flying. This obviously helps against ground types and flying moves but there's one specific meta mon this dominates and that is Hawlucha. Plain and simple with bulk throat chop or stone edge will never kill you if they even run coverage whilst you threaten a burn or outright KO that can change the tide of a game in an instant. Certainly below the prior two but this is a genuine choice depending on the team's needs.
:Poliwrath:
Now I know it looks like I put a ZU Shitter on my team for laughs, BUT I assure you he's just outclassed no real reason to use unless you're a fan like me. But trust that when I reach the team specific section I will regale Poliwrath's heroics in greater detail.
:Scizor:
There's really no unique interaction with the OM or crazy meta read. It hits hard with Bullet punch like always, biggest meta specific thing it does is bait kyurem tera if it's running freeze dry. Besides that it's just Scizor being Scizor, except the meta as a whole tends to be frailer relying on immunities or high explosive damage so Bullet Punch kills that much more.
:Thundurus-Therian:
Weather ballin, jokes aside Thundurus gains a lot from the bolt beam being available no matter the weather though volt absorb will be used as a case study on meta counter picks as a whole. Outside of that however it's just a good fast electric type with ground immunity that doesn't care about Excadrill's moldbreaker and can even threaten grounds with grass knot regardless of weather ball. Though you may find yourself often just short of a clean one hit ko.
:Unown-T:
https://pokepast.es/0c314559e3c07654

So as you may have already realized this team has some major flaws :poliwrath: but flawed though it may be I believe there is knowledge to be found and shared.
  • :excadrill: The ability to choose stealth rocks of a type that would be most beneficial to your wall breakers can not be understated as well as Excadrill's naturally high atk paired with rapid spin giving even this bulky support set the ability to sweep late game teams with relative ease as it has done many times. And even when things aren't perfect makes it so nothing can set up safely infront of it without fearing large damage. Item choice can be tinkered with though boots seems to be the most consistent given the different stealth rock types going around. (Do try to maintain the speed just enough to outspeed fastest Ceruledge and other 85s)
  • :Slowking-Galar: Blending offense momentum and defense is no easy feat but Slowking-G does it anyways, it's ability to shut down other weathers while supporting the team's steel types and putting weather ball online is incredible, while also being able to criple fast mons with T-wave or set up Ko's with Future Sight. The last move is whatever but I chose Sludge bomb just for strong instant damage.
  • :Ceruledge: As I've said before I truly believe this is one of the best Hawlucha answers period but it's threat doesn't end there high atk and with bulk investment makes it's bitter blades heal a lot more than you would expect alongside poltergeist and shadow sneak Balanced and Hyper offense teams alike have to fear this thing all while crippling sweepers with will-o-wisp. Ceruledge has immense potential in this meta which hasn't been revealed yet but I think one step to reaching it will be to forget how standard OU Ceruledge plays and follow a new path with it. (Also blocks defog mini gholdengo frfr)
  • :Poliwrath: The star of the show, man of the hour, cream of the crop. Poliwrath for all the shitting I've done on it is surprisingly good with an electric immunity and bulk up set. Should an opportunity be found (which it has many with that typing) Poliwrath can completely bulldoze any team that's had it's likely only counter to it taken out as despite it's unimpressive stats across the board without the fear of electric types and genuine drought of grass here the door is often wide open for it to if not sweep deal irreparable damage to the team's defensive core. Though if I'm being completely honest I feel you could do much better if you replace it for another bulky water sweeper I truly do believe it can carry it's weight.
  • :Scizor: I really do wish I had more to say but besides being tankier on my team with snow it's well and truly just choice band scizor doing choice band scizor things.
  • :Thundurus-Therian: This mon on the team can put in work especially against Bomberdier however you need to be careful with it and the item choice here more so than the rest needs work. I think often times you'd like the speed of scarf but without life orb or specs it doesn't hit hard enough to kill bulky mons. More importantly it could run tera ice for ice immunity and boltbeam. But I specifically run tera dark for the bomberdier matchup and dark team spammers. It's a great insight on how depending on the meta you might want to change what would normally be a worse move or type for the majority of pokemon because the most common pokemon at the time need a different set of traits to counter, which is something I believe everyone should account for in this tier.

    That about summarizes my thoughts on the tier, as far as I'm concerned in order to succeed you should take advantage of the new OM but not lean in so much that your team has lost the fundamentals remember about those mons that really just get the job done regardless of gimmick alongside the gimmick abusers to maximize your team's effectiveness. With that Poliwrath gang out :Poliwrath:
 
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Svinekjott said:
Forgive me if I was supposed to put this somewhere else, first time posting. I was trying to do a strategy where I'd make a ground type snowscape and have it buff an iron treads' defense, but I noticed it only buffed my Ninetales. Did a test: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9teraoverride-2459284818
Is this intended? Anyone know if sandstorm works the same with the spdef boost?
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The defense buff halves the damage you receive (it works in a way that is similar to Reflect/Light Screen/Ice Scales etc.) It doesn't affect your own Body Press output.
 
Sorry for double post. We have an announcement to make:

We are back to recruiting a council member or two, someone with high-ladder ranking (and someone who didn't cheese the ladder with an OU team treating OM's mechanics like one giant Red Herring) who understands the ins and outs of the meta. If you're interested DM us.
 
Dawn's Piplup said:
Sorry for double post. We have an announcement to make:

We are back to recruiting a council member or two, someone with high-ladder ranking (and someone who didn't cheese the ladder with an OU team treating OM's mechanics like one giant Red Herring) who understands the ins and outs of the meta. If you're interested DM us.
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I'd love to help, unfortunately, I'm hot garbage and too obsessed with shitmons.
 
Here are the raw results of the survey. (- the usernames, we got 30 votes)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...PwsFaUanc4ua/edit?gid=556699470#gid=556699470

The results are kind of all over the place and inconsistent in terms of what is ban-worthy and what isn't, with nothing on average too broken but almost everything being borderline. It seems like the general consensus is that balance isn't where it should be, and on that note the council is also aware of the fact the metagame is heavily centralized around certain pokemon and archetypes (terrain/snow).

It also seems very likely that our survey missed other potentially problematic things such as Aurora Veil, Light Clay, Chilly Reception, Terastallization, Dragonite etc, putting the emphasis more on the meta-defining pokemon. (so we will be considering elements not voted on the survey for our voting slate as well)

Stay tuned for a voting slate that will appear early next week comprising of potential bans/unbans !!!
 
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Apologies for the delay; I got caught up with some personal matters. Thank you for your responses. Here are the final results:
Enjoyment: 6.93
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The player base appears to find the metagame fairly enjoyable, although there is significant room for improvement.

Balance: 6.14
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The results are significantly below our expectations, particularly with two players rating it as a 1 outright. The council is committed to addressing this and will work on implementing policies aimed at improving the balance of the metagame.
:kyurem: Kyurem: 2.76
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Most of the votes indicate that Kyurem is not as overpowered relative to the other elements in the tier. While it will remain on our radar, it is unlikely to be our top priority at this time.

:hawlucha: Hawlucha: 3.31
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The majority of the community feels that Hawlucha warrants some attention. The council will consider this during the voting process.

:bombirdier: Bombirdier: 3.41
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Among all the mentioned elements, Bombirdier received the most support for a tiering action. Initially, it was removed from the council’s watchlist due to its slow speed and fragility, but it appears that some action is now necessary.

:ninetales-alola: Ninetales-Alola: 3.03
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Ninetales-Alola also garnered a notable number of votes for a tiering action, with a significant amount of suggestions also highlighting Aurora Veil and Light Clay. As a result, this Pokemon is currently one of the council's highest priorities.

:castform: Weather Ball: 2.62
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Weather Ball received the lowest support among all the mentioned elements, with most votes being rated 1 or 2. However, we will continue to monitor it moving forward.

:hard stone: Stealth Rocks: 3.10
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Stealth Rocks received a mixed response from the community, with some considering it overpowered while others feel it is acceptable as is. The council is generally opposed to banning Stealth Rocks but will reconsider if it proves to be detrimental to the health of the metagame.
Other Broken Elements:
:garganacl: 1 player voted for Garganacl
:enamorus: 1 player voted for Enamorus
:terapagos: 1 player voted for Terastallisation
:custap berry: 1 player voted for Custap Berry
:indeedee-f: 1 player voted for Psychic Terrain
:castform: 1 player voted for Weather :| (what weather?)
Unban Nominations:
:gouging fire: 3 players voted for Gouging Fire
:baxcalibur: 2 players voted for Baxcalibur
:ursaluna-bloodmoon: 2 players voted for Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
:magearna: 1 player voted for Magearna
:volcarona: 1 player voted for Volcarona
:chien-pao: 1 player voted for Chien-Pao
:flutter mane: 1 player voted for Flutter Mane
:regieleki: 1 player voted for Regieleki
:terapagos: 1 player voted for Terapagos
:espathra: 1 player voted for almost all the non-legendary ubers :<
Replacements:
:hawlucha: 1 player wants Normal Gem to be tested over Hawlucha
:hawlucha: 1 player wants Unburden to be tested over Hawlucha
:ninetales-alola: 1 player wants Aurora Veil to be tested over Ninetales-Alola
:ninetales-alola: 1 player wants Light Clay to be tested over Ninetales-Alola
Other Suggestions:
Restrict the number of immunity abilities per team
Fix the Visual Bugs ***
:ghorse:
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I love you guys so much :quagchamppogsire:
*** Regarding the Visual Bugs​
I spoke with Dhelmise about these issues, and unfortunately, they may not be fixed. These changes fall under 'Client Changes,' which are only implemented for Permanent Ladders. This means you'll have to live with these visual bugs for now. Apologies for the inconvenience.
As Dawn's Piplup mentioned, the council will be voting on the broken elements soon. Stay tuned!
 
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How does Hydro steam work with tera water sunny day , as shouldn't it ignore the damage mitigation effect of the weather whilst also getting powered up by the damage amplification.
 
Solosis said:
Stealth Rocks received a mixed response from the community, with some considering it overpowered while others feel it is acceptable as is. The council is generally opposed to banning Stealth Rocks but will reconsider if it proves to be detrimental to the health of the metagame.
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While I don't think rocks is that bad, we could definitely try restricting it (aka just normal rocks). With a restricted list we could also add like lucha to it. Only problem is like those are the only things that would be added to it
 
We have a tiering announcement!
ninetales-alola.gif
hawlucha.gif
enamorus.gif

Ninetales-Alola, Hawlucha, and Weather Ball have been BANNED from Tera Override by council vote.

Gouging Fire – Legal & Authentic Paradox Pokémon | ShinyAsh

Gouging Fire has been freed.
​

Here are the votes of council members:

​
Dawn's Piplup​
eeriespell​
InfernapeBud
Solosis​
Result​
Ninetales-A / Aurora Veil / Light Clay​
BAN Light Clay​
BAN Ninetales-A​
ABS​
BAN Ninetales-A​
BAN Ninetales-A​
Bombirdier​
DNB​
DNB​
ABS​
DNB​
DNB​
Hawlucha​
DNB​
BAN​
ABS​
BAN​
BAN​
Weather Ball​
BAN​
BAN​
ABS​
ABS​
BAN​
Terastallization​
DNB​
DNB​
ABS​
DNB​
DNB​
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon​
UNBAN​
DNU​
ABS​
ABS​
DNU​
Gouging-Fire​
UNBAN​
UNBAN​
ABS​
UNBAN​
UNBAN​
Roaring-Moon​
DNU​
DNU​
ABS​
DNU​
DNU​
Baxcalibur​
DNU​
DNU​
ABS​
DNU​
DNU​
  • Some of these ranked highest in the tiering survey, such as Hawlucha. Its set-up / Unburden + Gem builds proved to be too much to deal with, which made Hawlucha a very potent late game sweeper. It also had other (perhaps less overwhelming) options such as access to Mold Breaker and funky Flying Press coverages.
  • Weather Ball didn't rank as high as the other items in the survey, but ranked highest among the high-ladder participants and was observed to be win condition in a lot of the mid-high ladder games. Its mechanic of becoming any tera-type as opposed to the setter tera type was not originally anticipated. Its users mainly the incarnate/therian mons, Walking Wake, Raging Bolt were known to wreak havoc on ladder with random coverages added to their arsenal, so we decided to ban it.
  • Ninetales-Alola: This mon wasn't an easy ban as there was a lot of debate regarding what was the right thing to hit on our tiering slate (clay/veil/or the mon). But snow's random buff along with the veil support was simply too much and we decided to hit the most viable setter for now.
  • Regarding our unban, it is a case of try and see as the pokemon is seemingly not affected positively by the meta premise.
  • and finally, we are moving from :sylveon: Sleep moves clause :sylveon: to :sylveon: Sleep moves clause :sylveon: because the original clause wasn't implemented on the sever.
It wasn't on our tiering slate, but we will be closely monitoring Stealth Rock, but for now banning or tera-restricting it is not an option!

pinging dhelmise - thanks !!!
 
Why was Gouging Fire freed? I don't see how it does anything differently than what it does in regular OU, and I struggle to see why council would vote in the first place on a Pokemon that only 3 out of 29 people wanted unbanned.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
Why was Gouging Fire freed? I don't see how it does anything differently than what it does in regular OU, and I struggle to see why council would vote in the first place on a Pokemon that only 3 out of 29 people wanted unbanned.
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We already started with a somewhat restrictive banlist, and so yeah with considerable people finding the meta just enough balanced, you naturally look for unbans (as I said it's a bit of a try and see).

Also, I'm not sure why you're equating the meta to OU. Yes, an OU build or two are known to have succeeded on ladder, that doesn't mean meta plays the same as or is OU.
 
Dawn's Piplup said:
We already started with a somewhat restrictive banlist, and so yeah with considerable people finding the meta just enough balanced, you naturally look for unbans (as I said it's a bit of a try and see).

Also, I'm not sure why you're equating the meta to OU. Yes, an OU build or two are known to have succeeded on ladder, that doesn't mean meta plays the same as or is OU.
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I am using OU as a baseline here because this is a Tera-legal format, so there is a less clear justification for unbanning an Uber that was already proven to be banworthy in OU. I also don't understand how the generic OU banlist being "somewhat restrictive" (this is subjective anyways) means that you should look for Pokemon to unban with almost no community support. In fact, nobody here on the forums, including the council, has actually given a reason as to why Gouging Fire is being unbanned.
 
It is "somewhat restrictive" in a sense that the OM one creates isn't OU at the end of the day. If you want to be safe and conservative, you give it the OU banlist as a baseline (which can be arbitrary in a way for the OM you're building), some OMs don't do this and start with banlist more akin to that of AAA etc, but where you end up in terms of bans could be very different from where you start.

There were also a lot of unban suggestions brought up (apart from survey), partly because we didn't have anything inherently too broken, some people saying meta is very balanced, and others saying something is wrong but not quite being able to pinpoint what it is, and we had two weeks of no bans with no community outcry for a specific element to go. So, looking for unbans was a natural middle ground here in terms of progress.

Also, yes survey results are important, but they don't tell you the whole story. We kinda discovered that some of the under-scored things are the more problematic things through looking into higher ladder plays.

If Gouging Fire proves to be problematic, we are open to discussion and a re-ban of the mon, but in the meantime, let's move on....
 
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I appreciate having Gouging unbanned to see what happens, but I'm admittedly worried given that Sun is at full power and the most popular weather just got nuked from orbit with Alolatales (and to a lesser extent Weather Ball's additional gutting.)

Dawn's Piplup said:
and finally, we are moving from :sylveon: Sleep moves clause :sylveon: to :sylveon: Sleep moves clause :sylveon:
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So we're going from what we have to... what we have? :smogduck:
Digederoo said:
How does Hydro steam work with tera water sunny day , as shouldn't it ignore the damage mitigation effect of the weather whilst also getting powered up by the damage amplification.
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I'm... not sure, even after testing! It seems like somehow the spaghetti code is actually further buffing Hydro Steam! It does consistently far higher damage than it should under Water Sun, including when I also ran it under Stellar Sun as a baseline. So, uh, use Water Sun I guess to annihilate your opponents!

Read below, turns out yeah it is just normally boosted and I'm an idiot, clicking Dragon Dance changed the Protosynthesis boost I had on testing from SpAtk to Speed. I am slightly stupid.
 
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shadowpea said:
252 SpA Mystic Water Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi in Sun: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

probably because you have protosynthesis
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Oh I am an idiot, Dragon Dancing changed the Protosynthesis type from SpAtk to Speed, god I hate that ability so much lmfao
 
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