Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Ehmcee]

I won't argue with you there, although it would be more accurate to say Tera Blast specifically made it broken



Was it really Tera, and not say Speed Boost or Stored Power? Banning Tera would increase the offensive counterplay a bit, but defensive counterplay would still be very limited as it can still run Fairy coverage, not to mention it can still be just as much of a matchup fish with moves like Roost and Substitute.


You're talking about a Pokémon with an absurdly high (effective) attack stat and with a very effective STAB combo, with anything that could remotely try to switch up to it (Zama-C, Magearna) being banned or, in the case of Dondozo, still being exploitable. Obviously it appreciates Tera, but if Lando-I were dropped down here, it would appreciate Tera too.



Volc is probably the second most likely Pokémon to be broken due to Tera, but you can't ignore how all of its "counters" received major nerfs this generation and that Volc was always a bit of a matchup fish anyway.



Annihilape was banned specifically due to its matchup with bulky teams; HO never really had much difficulty facing it. And I don't see how a Tera ban is supposed to help with that matter, at best they would just be relying on a Flame Body proc to deal with it.

You can't just say "Tera made X broken" like it's the most obvious thing in the world as most of these Pokémon weren't tested in a no-Tera environment. Regieleki is the only real exception, since if anything it was nerfed from last gen but coverage against grounds clearly put it over the edge. But for the others, we have Pokémon that at best would just be teetering over the edge of brokenness and at worst would be just as broken as before if not moreso.

So something interesting is that a Teraless OU tournament is currently happening at the moment, I took the liberty of compiling the stats up to now to get some insight on usage percentages as well as win percentages. An interesting thing is that the TD team decided to unban Regieleki, Espathra and Volcarona from this tournament. The stats are below:

Week 1

Week 1

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          |   24 |  46.15% |  54.17% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |   23 |  44.23% |  60.87% |
| 3    | Gholdengo          |   18 |  34.62% |  27.78% |
| 4    | Iron Valiant       |   14 |  26.92% |  14.29% |
| 5    | Ting-Lu            |   13 |  25.00% |  69.23% |
| 6    | Zapdos             |   12 |  23.08% |  58.33% |
| 6    | Walking Wake       |   12 |  23.08% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Samurott-Hisui     |   11 |  21.15% |  18.18% |
| 9    | Dragapult          |   10 |  19.23% |  70.00% |
| 10   | Cinderace          |    8 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 11   | Iron Moth          |    7 |  13.46% |  85.71% |
| 11   | Baxcalibur         |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Greninja-*         |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Enamorus           |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 15   | Torkoal            |    6 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Moltres            |    6 |  11.54% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Slowking-Galar     |    6 |  11.54% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Sneasler           |    6 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Landorus-Therian   |    6 |  11.54% |  16.67% |
| 20   | Toxapex            |    5 |   9.62% | 100.00% |
| 20   | Pelipper           |    5 |   9.62% |  60.00% |
| 20   | Amoonguss          |    5 |   9.62% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Volcarona          |    5 |   9.62% |  20.00% |
| 24   | Corviknight        |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Dondozo            |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Glimmora           |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Brute Bonnet       |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Basculegion        |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Espathra           |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Volcanion          |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Clodsire           |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Hatterene          |    4 |   7.69% |  25.00% |
| 33   | Dragonite          |    3 |   5.77% |  66.67% |
| 33   | Meowscarada        |    3 |   5.77% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Azumarill          |    3 |   5.77% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Rotom-Wash         |    3 |   5.77% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Sandy Shocks       |    3 |   5.77% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Blissey            |    2 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Zamazenta-*        |    2 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Iron Hands         |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Heatran            |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Roaring Moon       |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Breloom            |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Garchomp           |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Scream Tail        |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Ursaluna           |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Scizor             |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Tornadus-Therian   |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Iron Jugulis       |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Floatzel           |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Haxorus            |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Alomomola          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Skeledirge         |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Iron Treads        |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Cresselia          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Regieleki          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Gyarados           |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Magnezone          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Slowking           |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Overqwil           |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Rillaboom          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Garganacl          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |

Week 2

Week 2

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          |   21 |  47.73% |  52.38% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |   20 |  45.45% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Zapdos             |   16 |  36.36% |  56.25% |
| 4    | Baxcalibur         |   14 |  31.82% |  64.29% |
| 4    | Ting-Lu            |   14 |  31.82% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Slowking-Galar     |   10 |  22.73% |  80.00% |
| 6    | Cinderace          |   10 |  22.73% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Toxapex            |    9 |  20.45% |  55.56% |
| 8    | Iron Valiant       |    9 |  20.45% |  22.22% |
| 8    | Samurott-Hisui     |    9 |  20.45% |  22.22% |
| 11   | Dragapult          |    8 |  18.18% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Gholdengo          |    8 |  18.18% |  37.50% |
| 13   | Zamazenta-*        |    6 |  13.64% |  66.67% |
| 13   | Greninja-*         |    6 |  13.64% |  33.33% |
| 13   | Walking Wake       |    6 |  13.64% |  16.67% |
| 16   | Enamorus           |    5 |  11.36% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Pelipper           |    5 |  11.36% |  20.00% |
| 16   | Basculegion        |    5 |  11.36% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Moltres            |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Dragonite          |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Amoonguss          |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Corviknight        |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Heatran            |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Sneasler           |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Torkoal            |    4 |   9.09% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Dondozo            |    3 |   6.82% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |   6.82% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Brute Bonnet       |    3 |   6.82% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Tornadus-Therian   |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Rillaboom          |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Glimmora           |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Blissey            |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Iron Hands         |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Scizor             |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Hatterene          |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Garchomp           |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Roaring Moon       |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Ditto              |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Clodsire           |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Iron Moth          |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Volcarona          |    2 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Espathra           |    2 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Sandy Shocks       |    2 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Meowscarada        |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Hawlucha           |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Weavile            |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Abomasnow          |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Cetitan            |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Alomomola          |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Iron Treads        |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Enamorus-Therian   |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Zoroark-Hisui      |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Regieleki          |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |

An interesting thing of note is that Volcarona and Espathra are nowhere near the top used pokemon, Volcarona barely cracks the top 20 during week 1 before falling down tremendously during week 2.

Espathra has a 0% win rate week 2, while it does have a 50% win rate week 1, the first game where it wins it wasn't even sent out, while the second game was a ditto, where the Espathra wasn't even sent out either.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1921880416

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1922228674-uwxyl0b213xwi9h2fi43dbmcyqvw4grpw

This is mostly due to the fact that Espathra just gets entirely curb stomped by Kingambit, as well as Ting-Lu.

Ultimately, I'm going to stop sharing wether i think specific pokemon are banworthy or not with or without tera other than these 3, I definitely think that these 3 would be balanced in the current metagame without tera.

The rest is entirely left to speculation, we have no idea how they'd perform in a teraless metagame because we haven't played them in one.

Ultimately I'm just curious to see if the stats change at all as the tournament goes on, I think this proves above all that these pokemon at least seem to be entirely balanced without tera, nothing seems to suggest that they'd be game breaking. Now imagine we'd be in a meta where the rest of those pokemon could still tera, it wouldn't boost the viability of Volcarona/Espathra/Eleki, it would offer even more opportunities to check them.

 

[Dhrabb]

I feel like the a tera banlist would not work because tiering simply doesn't work like that. We tier Pokemon based on how they perform under a general ruleset, if something is allowed, it's fair game. Whatever conditions under which tera is allowed, it's allowed for every mon. Banning specific Pokemon from tera'ing is just removing one of the things in its toolkit, which I think is a complex ban. What's the difference between having a list of Pokemon that can't tera and a list of Pokemon that can't use stored power? Or a list of Pokemon that can't use tera blast?

 

[Avira]

I feel like the a tera banlist would not work because tiering simply doesn't work like that. We tier Pokemon based on how they perform under a general ruleset, if something is allowed, it's fair game. Whatever conditions under which tera is allowed, it's allowed for every mon. Banning specific Pokemon from tera'ing is just removing one of the things in its toolkit, which I think is a complex ban. What's the difference between having a list of Pokemon that can't tera and a list of Pokemon that can't use stored power? Or a list of Pokemon that can't use tera blast?

You are absolutely right that a Tera banlist would be multiple complex bans for every Pokemon that can't Tera. Not allowing a mon to Tera opens the door for restricting an overpowered Pokemon's movepool or ability to the point that it would be balanced or restricting a cover legendary's level to the point that it would be balanced. This should not be considered at all.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Not allowing a mon to Tera opens the door for

nothing. it opens the door for nothing. there are no floodgates. there is no slippery slope. our council has enough common sense to differentiate between tera and things that aren't tera, and you are insulting them by suggesting otherwise. i am sick and tired of people's entire arguments consisting of exclusively logical fallacies. i am begging you to come up with a reason against tera blacklist besides "muh slippery slope" and "too much work"

 

[udongirl]

There are no relation between the result of the kingambit suspect and terastallization.
“Kingambit didn't get banned ” means “kingambit isn't broken under the terastallization meta”.

 

[Dhrabb]

nothing. it opens the door for nothing. there are no floodgates. there is no slippery slope. our council has enough common sense to differentiate between tera and things that aren't tera, and you are insulting them by suggesting otherwise. i am sick and tired of people's entire arguments consisting of exclusively logical fallacies. i am begging you to come up with a reason against tera blacklist besides "muh slippery slope" and "too much work"

It doesn't matter if it's tera or items or moves or whatever, banning something, tera included, on specifc mons is a complex ban. It doesn't matter if it's a generational gimmick, banning tera on Kingambit is still similar to banning Kowtow Kleave on it because it is part of what makes it broken. I sincerely doubt the council will entertain a tera banlist idea, at least I hope they do so.

 

[Talpr0ne]

nothing. it opens the door for nothing. there are no floodgates. there is no slippery slope. our council has enough common sense to differentiate between tera and things that aren't tera, and you are insulting them by suggesting otherwise. i am sick and tired of people's entire arguments consisting of exclusively logical fallacies. i am begging you to come up with a reason against tera blacklist besides "muh slippery slope" and "too much work"

How about "A Dynamax banlist has already been tried and demonstrated to not work and artificially centralize the meta around mons that can still dynamax"?

 

[Moyashi]

There are no relation between the result of the kingambit suspect and terastallization.
“Kingambit didn't get banned ” means “kingambit isn't broken under the terastallization meta”.

Considering that Kingambit barely missed on being banned, no it really doesn't mean that. Not conclusively anyways. And I hear some no ban voters have been having second thoughts on the outcome.

 

[udongirl]

Considering that Kingambit barely missed on being banned, no it really doesn't mean that. Not conclusively anyways. And I hear some no ban voters have been having second thoughts on the outcome.

What I want to say is opinions like ”kingambit didn't get banned so kingambit itself isn't broken and tera should be banned!!“ is wrong. I saw some players like this in this thread.

 

[JunkoAJ]

the thing that makes it different is that those other ones sound really fucking stupid when you say them out loud (because they are), as opposed to the concept of "certain pokemon can't use the universal mechanic", which does have working precedent outside of ou—mix and mega, for example, has a list of mons that aren't allowed to mega evolve, and no one seems to have a problem with that over there because it works

Comparing what works in different metas is largely disingenuous because they operate completely different lmao. I thought we figured this out last month when people were comparing NatDex OU to CG OU

the real reason we shouldn't have a tera banlist is that it might affect usage of tera-reliant things to the point where they'd drop and fuck up other tiers

And if this is something you've thought about then why are you even considering the idea of a Tera banlist?

 

[Stellar Flares]

Thanks to all those that answered about the following suggestion of :
Banning Terastallization on specific Pokémons.

From what I read, there's a lot of people arguing this idea isn't good as it looks as a complex ban, or as removing X part of a Pokemon to make it competitively acceptable in OU such as removing movepool / abilities on Uber Pokemons or giving items restrictions.

But this isn't answering the idea I submitted.

I asked you your thoughts about wether or not this suggestion could balance the tier more than other ideas such as Tera Preview / Banning Tera Blast and so one.

Admitting we'd let the "Complex Ban" approach aside regarding this idea, what do you think about it ?

 

[JunkoAJ]

I asked you your thoughts about wether or not this suggestion could balance the tier more than other ideas such as Tera Preview / Banning Tera Blast and so one.

Admitting we'd let the "Complex Ban" approach aside regarding this idea, what do you think about it ?

I don't really think it would change anything, it would just give other lesser Tera abusers more limelight - every time something gets banned something will eventually take its place and it has the potential to become just as broken given the lowered power level.

 

[Melbelle]

Imagine having to check the tera ban list to see if the thing in front of you can tera or not

 

[Dive Missile]

main issue with a tera banlist i think is that broken mons love to tera, making it more vague as to if the mon is broken or if them being able to tera is the issue.

like, imagine if when chien pao got suspected, people went "oh only tera dark is broken, suspect its ability to tera" so it got restricted from using tera, and then later on it ended up being problematic anyways (debatable but that's not the point). suddenly the whole suspect was a waste of time and just served to nerf a broken mon instead of outright banning it. this is a big reason why complex bans don't work, instead of just getting rid of something dumb it wastes time trying to tweak it for no real reason. the slippery slope thing is valid but its overstated imo

 

[ianlazerbeem]

main issue with a tera banlist i think is that broken mons love to tera, making it more vague as to if the mon is broken or if them being able to tera is the issue.

like, imagine if when chien pao got suspected, people went "oh only tera dark is broken, suspect its ability to tera" so it got restricted from using tera, and then later on it ended up being problematic anyways (debatable but that's not the point). suddenly the whole suspect was a waste of time and just served to nerf a broken mon instead of outright banning it. this is a big reason why complex bans don't work, instead of just getting rid of something dumb it wastes time trying to tweak it for no real reason. the slippery slope thing is valid but its overstated imo

Yup. The fact that someone even thought "Chien Pao is reasonable if it can't Tera" is evidence this idea should not exist. We should not be trying to "nerf" broken crap by GUESSING one aspect we THINK makes it broken specifically. Just get it out

So something interesting is that a Teraless OU tournament is currently happening at the moment, I took the liberty of compiling the stats up to now to get some insight on usage percentages as well as win percentages. An interesting thing is that the TD team decided to unban Regieleki, Espathra and Volcarona from this tournament. The stats are below:

Week 1

Week 1

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          |   24 |  46.15% |  54.17% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |   23 |  44.23% |  60.87% |
| 3    | Gholdengo          |   18 |  34.62% |  27.78% |
| 4    | Iron Valiant       |   14 |  26.92% |  14.29% |
| 5    | Ting-Lu            |   13 |  25.00% |  69.23% |
| 6    | Zapdos             |   12 |  23.08% |  58.33% |
| 6    | Walking Wake       |   12 |  23.08% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Samurott-Hisui     |   11 |  21.15% |  18.18% |
| 9    | Dragapult          |   10 |  19.23% |  70.00% |
| 10   | Cinderace          |    8 |  15.38% |  25.00% |
| 11   | Iron Moth          |    7 |  13.46% |  85.71% |
| 11   | Baxcalibur         |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Greninja-*         |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Enamorus           |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 15   | Torkoal            |    6 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Moltres            |    6 |  11.54% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Slowking-Galar     |    6 |  11.54% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Sneasler           |    6 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Landorus-Therian   |    6 |  11.54% |  16.67% |
| 20   | Toxapex            |    5 |   9.62% | 100.00% |
| 20   | Pelipper           |    5 |   9.62% |  60.00% |
| 20   | Amoonguss          |    5 |   9.62% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Volcarona          |    5 |   9.62% |  20.00% |
| 24   | Corviknight        |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Dondozo            |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Glimmora           |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Brute Bonnet       |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 24   | Basculegion        |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Espathra           |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Volcanion          |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Clodsire           |    4 |   7.69% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Hatterene          |    4 |   7.69% |  25.00% |
| 33   | Dragonite          |    3 |   5.77% |  66.67% |
| 33   | Meowscarada        |    3 |   5.77% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Azumarill          |    3 |   5.77% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Rotom-Wash         |    3 |   5.77% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Sandy Shocks       |    3 |   5.77% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Blissey            |    2 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Zamazenta-*        |    2 |   3.85% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Iron Hands         |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Heatran            |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Roaring Moon       |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Breloom            |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Garchomp           |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Scream Tail        |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Ursaluna           |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Scizor             |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Tornadus-Therian   |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Iron Jugulis       |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Floatzel           |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Haxorus            |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Alomomola          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Skeledirge         |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Iron Treads        |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Cresselia          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Regieleki          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Gyarados           |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Magnezone          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Slowking           |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Overqwil           |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Rillaboom          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Garganacl          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |

Week 2

Week 2

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          |   21 |  47.73% |  52.38% |
| 2    | Great Tusk         |   20 |  45.45% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Zapdos             |   16 |  36.36% |  56.25% |
| 4    | Baxcalibur         |   14 |  31.82% |  64.29% |
| 4    | Ting-Lu            |   14 |  31.82% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Slowking-Galar     |   10 |  22.73% |  80.00% |
| 6    | Cinderace          |   10 |  22.73% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Toxapex            |    9 |  20.45% |  55.56% |
| 8    | Iron Valiant       |    9 |  20.45% |  22.22% |
| 8    | Samurott-Hisui     |    9 |  20.45% |  22.22% |
| 11   | Dragapult          |    8 |  18.18% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Gholdengo          |    8 |  18.18% |  37.50% |
| 13   | Zamazenta-*        |    6 |  13.64% |  66.67% |
| 13   | Greninja-*         |    6 |  13.64% |  33.33% |
| 13   | Walking Wake       |    6 |  13.64% |  16.67% |
| 16   | Enamorus           |    5 |  11.36% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Pelipper           |    5 |  11.36% |  20.00% |
| 16   | Basculegion        |    5 |  11.36% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Moltres            |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Dragonite          |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Amoonguss          |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Corviknight        |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Heatran            |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Sneasler           |    4 |   9.09% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Torkoal            |    4 |   9.09% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Dondozo            |    3 |   6.82% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |   6.82% |  66.67% |
| 26   | Brute Bonnet       |    3 |   6.82% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Tornadus-Therian   |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Rillaboom          |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Glimmora           |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Blissey            |    2 |   4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Iron Hands         |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Scizor             |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Hatterene          |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Garchomp           |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Roaring Moon       |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Ditto              |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Clodsire           |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Iron Moth          |    2 |   4.55% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Volcarona          |    2 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Espathra           |    2 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Sandy Shocks       |    2 |   4.55% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Meowscarada        |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Hawlucha           |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Weavile            |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Abomasnow          |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Cetitan            |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Alomomola          |    1 |   2.27% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Iron Treads        |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Enamorus-Therian   |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Zoroark-Hisui      |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Regieleki          |    1 |   2.27% |   0.00% |

An interesting thing of note is that Volcarona and Espathra are nowhere near the top used pokemon, Volcarona barely cracks the top 20 during week 1 before falling down tremendously during week 2.

Espathra has a 0% win rate week 2, while it does have a 50% win rate week 1, the first game where it wins it wasn't even sent out, while the second game was a ditto, where the Espathra wasn't even sent out either.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1921880416

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1922228674-uwxyl0b213xwi9h2fi43dbmcyqvw4grpw

This is mostly due to the fact that Espathra just gets entirely curb stomped by Kingambit, as well as Ting-Lu.

Ultimately, I'm going to stop sharing wether i think specific pokemon are banworthy or not with or without tera other than these 3, I definitely think that these 3 would be balanced in the current metagame without tera.

The rest is entirely left to speculation, we have no idea how they'd perform in a teraless metagame because we haven't played them in one.

Ultimately I'm just curious to see if the stats change at all as the tournament goes on, I think this proves above all that these pokemon at least seem to be entirely balanced without tera, nothing seems to suggest that they'd be game breaking. Now imagine we'd be in a meta where the rest of those pokemon could still tera, it wouldn't boost the viability of Volcarona/Espathra/Eleki, it would offer even more opportunities to check them.

An important part of statistics is SAMPLE SIZE. I wouldn't say usage statistics of a tournament where week 2 saw 2 Espathras, 2 Volcarona, and only 1 Regieleki, out of 50 games, is indicative of ANYTHING. Not enough information. You said yourself Espathra wasn't even sent out in the 2/50 games it was in. That is what we call NO DATA. Actually pointing to 0%, 50%, 100% win rates in weeks where it was used 0 or 1 time is LAUGHABLE.

nothing. it opens the door for nothing. there are no floodgates. there is no slippery slope. our council has enough common sense to differentiate between tera and things that aren't tera, and you are insulting them by suggesting otherwise. i am sick and tired of people's entire arguments consisting of exclusively logical fallacies. i am begging you to come up with a reason against tera blacklist besides "muh slippery slope" and "too much work"

"Tiering policy isn't going to change because you want to use Chien Pao in OU" is not a logical fallacy. "We can change the rules just this one time and nothing else will be affected" is.

Anyways, enough of this distraction. What do you all hate about Tera? Why do you want to see it gone or changed? Make your voices heard! They won't suspect this mechanic until we give them a good reason

 

[Srn]

Thanks to all those that answered about the following suggestion of :
Banning Terastallization on specific Pokémons.

From what I read, there's a lot of people arguing this idea isn't good as it looks as a complex ban, or as removing X part of a Pokemon to make it competitively acceptable in OU such as removing movepool / abilities on Uber Pokemons or giving items restrictions.

But this isn't answering the idea I submitted.

I asked you your thoughts about wether or not this suggestion could balance the tier more than other ideas such as Tera Preview / Banning Tera Blast and so one.

Admitting we'd let the "Complex Ban" approach aside regarding this idea, what do you think about it ?

Alright, setting aside the Complex ban issue for a second, I'll give you my serious thoughts.

Banning tera on kingambit would improve the tier a little. Less strain on building (no more worrying about sd tera blast fairy), less weighted guesswork in battle, all good stuff. In fact, I love the sound of that so much, why stop there?
Banning tera on Iron Valiant would improve the tier a little too. Less strain on building (no more worrying about sub cm tera ghost setting up on your glowking, no more SD tera electric blowing up your zapdos, etc), less weighted guesswork in battle, all good stuff. I love that too!
Really weird how we're improving the tier little by little by banning tera on specific mons! I wonder what'd happen if we just banned tera altogether!!

If you arbitrarily decide to stop specific pokemon from using tera, you may be able to lower the power level to something acceptable and balanced. But the mental gymnastics, half measures, and complex bans needed to achieve this make it a non-starter. (sorry I ended up on the complex ban issue again)

Whether or not this specific half measure that fails to address the real issue is better than the other specific half measure that fails to address the real issue...I don't really care.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Alright, setting aside the Complex ban issue for a second, I'll give you my serious thoughts.

Banning tera on kingambit would improve the tier a little. Less strain on building (no more worrying about sd tera blast fairy), less weighted guesswork in battle, all good stuff. In fact, I love the sound of that so much, why stop there?
Banning tera on Iron Valiant would improve the tier a little too. Less strain on building (no more worrying about sub cm tera ghost setting up on your glowking, no more SD tera electric blowing up your zapdos, etc), less weighted guesswork in battle, all good stuff. I love that too!
Really weird how we're improving the tier little by little by banning tera on specific mons! I wonder what'd happen if we just banned tera!!

If you arbitrarily decide to stop specific pokemon from using tera, you may be able to lower the power level to something acceptable and balanced. But the mental gymnastics, half measures, and complex bans needed to achieve this make it a non-starter. (sorry I ended up on the complex ban issue again)

Whether or not this specific half measure that fails to address the real issue is better than the other specific half measure that fails to address the real issue...I don't really care.

Idk after 2.5 years of tests bans and metagame shifts we might find the perfect combination of Pokémon that should and shouldn't be allowed to Tera to make the tier perfect, then we will really be cooking

 

[ant4456]

Idk after 2.5 years of tests bans and metagame shifts we might find the perfect combination of Pokémon that should and shouldn't be allowed to Tera to make the tier perfect, then we will really be cooking

guys i feel like ceruledge's tera bug set is making it too hard to check

i mean, it loses all of its normal weaknesses and kills the mons with rock moves, what are we supposed to use talonflame

i suggest we ban tera on ceruledge

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

"Tiering policy isn't going to change because you want to use Chien Pao in OU" is not a logical fallacy. "We can change the rules just this one time and nothing else will be affected" is.

it's all so tiresome

And if this is something you've thought about then why are you even considering the idea of a Tera banlist?

i'm not considering the idea. in fact, i actually kind of hate it. i just want people to craft up actual arguments against it instead of assuming that a single rule change will cascade into an insane complex-ban rampage, which there is no evidence for and several pieces of evidence against

 

[ianlazerbeem]

guys i feel like ceruledge's tera bug set is making it too hard to check

i mean, it loses all of its normal weaknesses and kills the mons with rock moves, what are we supposed to use talonflame

i suggest we ban tera on ceruledge

"Hmm well we've banned Tera on other specific Pokémon, no reason not to entertain this!"

2 months later

"Hmm well X is too hard to check without Tera Bug Ceruledge, better ban X from Teraing as well..."

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Something that this generation has made abundantly clear is the inadequacy of our current suspect test system. There's really no good solution to it. If you want to be consistent and fair, you can't have multiple suspect tests running at the same time for reasons stated by Finch here and you can't lower the time of a suspect test, which usually ranges from 2 to 4 weeks, without also lowering the requirements to get in, which is obviously not how we want to tier. In a generation like this one, where there is just so many different potentially-broken elements, we really do not have time to suspect test each and every one of them. This leads to 2 options: 1, we have to rely a lot more on quickbans for things like Volcarona or Chien-Pao which were only debatably broken, or 2, we just accept the meta like it is and just try and suspect as much as we can. This is compounded when we can't even agree on what we even want to suspect. This is why I can't agree with complex bans. Do we really want to add fuel to this fire? Do we really want to take the already-flawed and inefficient suspect test and make it even more complicated and dividing for the playerbase, to the point where we have had 2 tests for the central mechanic of this generation and there is still outrage and calling for a tera ban? This just doesn't sound like a very fun process for anyone, as evidenced by the entirety of gen 5 and the tera suspect of gen 9.

I'm going to be real here. What would OU actually gain from not banning Houndstone? I never understood why people were so hung up on a shitmon destined for PU and thats with Tera on the table. All of these ring around the rosies for barely anything. Almost none of the arguments ever made for mons like this ever involve Pokemon that would make a lasting impact on OU if the "problematic elements" were banned instead of the mon doing the problematic thing.

I'd absolutely be on board with this, but they would definitely have to be some rigid rules. It would have to be a signature move OR broken on every single pokemon that gets it, and you would have to have the support of the playerbase for it being the broken MOVE that's the issue rather than the 'Mon. I could see this being done by public surveys, which are much faster and less investment from the player, but it would also have a lot higher bar of ban, like 85% or something to make SURE it's worthy. I think this helps prevent the slippery slope argument, if the whole playerbase agrees

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

guys i feel like ceruledge's tera bug set is making it too hard to check

i mean, it loses all of its normal weaknesses and kills the mons with rock moves, what are we supposed to use talonflame

i suggest we ban tera on ceruledge

"Hmm well we've banned Tera on other specific Pokémon, no reason not to entertain this!"

the best thing you can do for our position right now is to just stop. you're making us look bad

 

[Finchinator]

If I see one more referee meme, I will call an intentional misuse of thread and lock this shit and throwaway the key

 

[ianlazerbeem]

View attachment 545462
the best thing you can do for our position right now is to just stop. you're making us look bad

Why don't you make the list of Pokémon that should and the list that shouldn't be allowed to Tera and get back to us

If I see one more referee meme, I will call an intentional misuse of thread and lock this shit and throwaway the key

See everyone, Finch is here listening to us, and we are throwing him ridiculous suggestions like the Tera ban list and going back and forth for pages, instead of simply saying why we believe the mechanic deserves a suspect. He's here to listen to us and we are wasting that fact. It's embarrassing

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Why don't you make the list of Pokémon that should and the list that shouldn't be allowed to Tera and get back to us

aight bet
mons that should be allowed in ou but not allowed to tera:

• regieleki
• volcarona
• dragapult
• iron valiant
• baxcalibur
• possibly enamorus

mons that should just be/stay banned:

• kingambit
• chien-pao
• espathra
• annihilape
• both urshifu forms
• palafin, chi-yu, and all of the other obviously broken bullshit

this would vastly improve the meta if implemented