Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[Mikegengsta]

Hello, competitive casual player, I am absolutely against the Teracrystal ban.

First of all I would like to know why ban so quickly the main mechanic of the generation after only 2 weeks! In 6VS6 single player strategies, this is a ridiculously short time to grasp all the options available to us and to allow time for a meta to settle in. There is no rush at this point and if indeed there is a problem, banning may be the solution under certain conditions.

Then if there is a ban, the "Tera Team Preview" seems to be the best solution in my opinion.

1) Knowing which pokemon can Tera in which types will allow more complex game plans by being accessible to both players.

2) More options = more diversity in the pokemons used which reduces the redundancy of some games that tend to look the same in 8g.

3) The terablast allows as many things in my opinion as a Hidden Power, and moreover with the team preview we would already know what type it would be unlike the Hidden Power.

4) It keeps its potential in both offensive and defensive teams.

5) Banning the main mechanic again will scare away potential new players and thus slowly kill the Smogon community.

I'm putting this down here but choosing who goes first in Random Battle would be welcome for this 9G.

Thanks for listening,

Kisses from France :-*

I agree with number 5. This^

 

[ant4456]

Every priority mon that's at least half decent. Chien-Pao, Kingambit, Scizor, Breloom, Dragonite, Talonflame, Azumarill, Basculin, Quaquaval, and even Lokix can all bring in stupid damage under the right circumstances at +1 or +2. I'm sure there are others I've momentarily forgotten.

The priority counters are also largely not so good right now. Farigiraf, Bruxish, and Tsareena aren't good. Psychic Terrain is very rare.



Whenever you can get multiple kills with it. Or if you can get a single kill with a Tera'd priority user that could be useful later in the game. Outside of that, it's very rare that you can get merely a single KO with a surprise Tera and that's actually enough to win you the game, especially if you Tera'd first. It sounds insane, but the Meta is just so hyper offensive that one kill usually isn't enough to justify a Tera.



It's very significant when a pokemon changes its type, and a move that was supposed to be super effective against it and KO it is no longer super effective. But the biggest problem comes after that with offensive retaliation. That's the thing that can bring you from being in a winning position and playing perfectly to losing the game in a single turn with little to no chance of recovery.



By making you predict not only when the opposing pokemon will Tera, but which Tera type it will be. I'll give an example of Roaring Moon. Roaring Moon can be beaten with Breloom's Mach Punch, unless it has Tera Flying. In which case a Bullet Punch from Scizor would be the better answer. But it might not be Tera Flying. It might be Tera Steel, or it might not Tera at all, in which case Breloom would be the better answer.

There is no way to know the correct choice here unless you know ahead of time what the Tera type of Roaring Moon is. This is why I have favorable opinions on the Tera team preview option. Because it brings the amount of factors you have to predict to something more reasonable. Roaring Moon still might not Tera. But at least you know what Tera it can change to so you can plan accordingly from the beginning of the match rather than finding out after your pokemon died and the sweep is incoming.



An absurd amount. To be blunt, the double STAB bonus is BS and really shouldn't exist. You can get everything right and still be just brute forced through by same type Tera Mons firing off powerful attacks like Chi-Yu and insane priority like Chien-Pao. Literally every priority user I listed except Dragonite abuses double STAB. There would be far less mons that will need to be banned without this. It's easily the worst part of the mechanic.



I think the issue is two parts. I've said I like the Tera team preview option to help with the "50/50s" or whatever you want to call the insane amount of variables and the pressure that puts on everyone that results in having to guess too much.

The second issue is the double STAB for same type Tera. If there was a way to get rid of that, or at least stop same type Tera pokemon from interacting with or using bonus multiplier items, this is the way to go. But unless this issue is addressed, none of the attempts to compromise here instead of outright banning Tera would ever work.

So it has to be some combination of the Tera team preview and limiting the damage multipliers for same type Tera. The ladder is the harder but more essential part. I would love to see people talk more about this aspect.

I'm not going to reply to most of this (would just be regurgitating prior points I've made), but honestly I'm not surprised that getting one kill isn't worth it, because when you Terastilize first, it's harder to be adaptive to the opponent's Tera.

Also, we've had PLENTY of metagames where be it by team matchup, making a play in a super offensive metagame, or suicide hazard leads where not only is one kill not worth potentially using your best resource in that match, but in some metagames it was worth it to do some damage, get some rocks up, and die.

That being said, I think there is actually a pretty good team variety right now. Using Balance/Bulky Offense is less than hard, Stall exists and Hyper Offense also exists. I honestly feel like teambuilding at this current time is healthy.

Except Chien Pao that shit's Mega Weavile with an item slot and an actual ability with a good Fighting move holy shit

 

[Bold School]

I'm not going to reply to most of this (would just be regurgitating prior points I've made), but honestly I'm not surprised that getting one kill isn't worth it, because when you Terastilize first, it's harder to be adaptive to the opponent's Tera.

Also, we've had PLENTY of metagames where be it by team matchup, making a play in a super offensive metagame, or suicide hazard leads where not only is one kill not worth potentially using your best resource in that match, but in some metagames it was worth it to do some damage, get some rocks up, and die.

Well I brought that part up because, for those people making the Z move comparisons, it often was enough to get a lure kill with a Z move. You can do a similar thing with Tera lure kills, but it's generally not worth it to only get one KO.

I'm not really sure which metas you are specifically referring to, but this wasn't the case in gen 6 or 7 where Z crystals were a thing. And it definitely wasn't the case in gen 8 where punching a hole through the opposing team was often huge. The thing about Terastallizing is you generally need more offense than that to justify it.

I also would be careful about comparing the suicide lead role with what I'm talking about, as they are different things.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

If I’m being honest, all I want is two ladders. Which one we call “OU” is inconsequential to me as long as I have the option to play both a meta with Tera and a meta without. (That said, I’m leaning a teeny tiny bit more towards the “ban” side.)

What is the point of unmoderated ladder if there's no tiering council and mods? Natdex OU already exists as an unofficial meta, play that

 

[bogglywoods]

What is the point of unmoderated ladder if there's no tiering council and mods? Natdex OU already exists as an unofficial meta, play that

NatDex OU (at least right now) still has tera so it kind of has nothing to do with what they said lol

 

[Joseph Gomes]

NatDex OU (at least right now) still has tera so it kind of has nothing to do with what they said lol

When/if tera is banned from OU, people can always fall back to Natdex. There won't be a second unmoderated OU ladder for any reason.

 

[Blitz467]

I find the Tera to be the nicest competitive upgrade in the game indeed for its surprise. It makes players more pro active and not just knowing everything about each pokemon and all that fear turning around and that's amazing. It's like a game of poker. The bluff and the surprise are part of the game so you are alert to everything. It's time to evolve guys I think. Chess is old, we can play poket its fun! Haha But seriously this is a game that ALL POKEMONS CAN TERACRYSTALIZE of all types so even if you get tricked you can surprise it too! STOP KILLING THE GAME. This kind of stuff makes me lose interest in being in this community. At worst, for example, if some tera are too strong, banish them, for example Teranociv, tera steel cannot be an example again, but don't touch this magnificent game mechanic. game not everything has to be PREDICTABLE Thanks for listening to my TedTalk Hahaha

This will be the public thread for discussion of Terastallization as the metagame thread is too multifaceted already. The Policy Review thread will be monitored closely and can be found here!

---

The release of Pokemon Scarlet and Violet on the 18th of November brought us a brand new core mechanic, Terastallization. This thread will be used to discuss the tiering of Terastallization in Smogon's Overused metagame.

Here is how the new mechanic functions:

• Any Pokemon can utilize it, but it can only be done once per battle
• Upon Terastallizing, a Pokemon will retain the effects even if they switch out, lasting until they faint
• Each Pokemon has a "Tera type" that you can strategically pick in the teambuilder
• This type becomes your sole defensive typing
• You retain initial STABs, but also gain STAB on your "Tera type" if it is a novel type
• If your "Tera type" is one of your STABs, then you get an additional boost akin to the ability Adaptability
• "Tera Blast" is a new move every Pokemon learns that is 80 BP and will take the form of your "Tera type"
• "Tera Blast" will take the form of your highest attacking stat at the time of usage

As you can see, this mechanic is entirely novel, not closely resembling any prior concept we have seen in Pokemon prior to this generation. The competitive implications of Terastallization have been assessed since the release last week, but also continue to be assessed by our growing playerbase in our constantly evolving metagame. One constant in discussions about early tiering have been the potential for Terstallization to be the focus of tiering action.

Here is a post showing ten common examples of effective Terrastalization in the metagame. Notice the variation between the effect and use of each one; there are a number of examples that work offensively, defensively, or even both simultaneously. A couple of the sets use Tera Blast, a couple of the sets abuse the added boost to previously existing STAB, a couple of the Pokemon solely focus on the shifted defensive typing to grant wider match-up coverage, a couple of the Pokemon use the additional STAB typing to bolster their complimentary attacks, and so on. It is very hard to isolate a single aspect of Terastallization as the best or worst as they all play very important and pressing roles in the metagame on numerous Pokemon.

Given how potent and focal Terastallization has been thus far, it has been deemed appropriate to open a thread on its tiering placement. There are three potential outcomes for Terastallization: outright ban, restriction, and no tiering action. The former two fall into the camp of tiering action being needed while the latter one maintains the current status quo. Let's discuss all three possibilities!

Outright ban

An outright ban is Terstallization will remove the entire concept from the metagame with no strings attached. This can be seen as the "nuclear option" as it removes the entire core mechanic from the current generation of OU, but in extreme cases a nuclear option may be necessary to reach the ideal result. In this case, the ideal result is a competitive metagame and we would resort to this option if it is determined that there is no place for Terastallization in a competitive environment.

There has been a significant amount of buzz about removing Terastallization from the metagame altogether as the alternatives, which will be discussed below in the "restriction" and "no tiering action" sections, all leave things to be desired. They all come with their own respective cons, but the collective pro of preserving some semblance of the generation's core mechanic in the metagame. As for an outright ban, it is the opposite -- if we were to go to this option, we would face the con of it being removed altogether, but have the pro of avoiding a potentially ideologically flawed or inconsistent method chosen as our solution.

In terms of practical outlook, a lot can be said as to having the ability to change defensive typing making finding consistent counterplay to Pokemon an impossibility. Terrstalization fundamentally alters how we approach handling the wide array of threats our metagame presents us, occasionally forcing the metagame to resort to extremes with a surplus of revenge killers to minimize prospects or a surplus of extreme walls to outright blank Terastallization options on more dynamic offensive presences. It is possible to argue that this concept as a whole does not belong in a competitive metagame due to how much it warps how we play and how even with the closest attention to detail, it can be seen as an unreasonable ask to handle both Pokemon in their original state and these Pokemon with altered types. However, it is also true that more experienced players have began to expect specific Terstallizations from specific opposing Pokemon. This at least adds a layer of strategy and a component of prediction to the matter. It is true that there can be some guesswork when it comes to timing and specifics, but it also takes proper usage to reep the rewards of Terastallization.

The move Tera Blast also warrants discussion. It has been serving as a practical tool to a number of Pokemon in the metagame with a STAB boost and being able to adapt to your stronger offensive side. The limiting factor of it is that it does take up a valuable moveslot and it also is only 80 base power. This makes the viable pool of Tera Blast users slightly limited, but there are still a good amount of users overall. We can say that Tera Blast alone as a concept is not the most overwhelming thing we have seen and may be tolerable in a vacuum as of now, but there are still lots of new applications of it popping up that give Tera Blast potential to get scarier by the day in the metagame.

Overall, the main selling point for an outright ban would be that the sudden type shifting is seen as an uncompetitive element of the metagame, thus making the premise of the core mechanic banworthy. It is currently yet to be seen as to if the playerbase views this dynamic as competitive or uncompetitive, but we will use this thread to assess that matter and guide us in proceeding.

Restriction

The idea of restricting Terastallization has been floated on numerous occasions to the council and to tiering administration. The underlying idea behind these prospects would be that it preserves the core mechanic of the generation, granting the metagame some defining characteristics while maintaining a playerbase drawing feature to some degree. It is true, however, that neither of these two pieces of reasoning have any direct correlation to competitiveness, which is the foremost focus in any tiering discussion.

In addition, we are working under the premise that if any restriction does get implemented and the mechanic still proves problematic afterwards, then at this point we would be far more likely to cut any losses and not try any further restrictions, but rather an outright ban. This means that the focus of this will be to see if there is any plausible restriction to Terastallization that could balance it enough to remain in the metagame rather than being on trying to preserve as much as possible on the basis that it can always be further restricted, which we will not waste the bulk of the generation on leveling out.

Some proposed restrictions we have seen are:

• Showing the Tera type of each Pokemon in the each player's party at Team Preview
• Limiting the amount of Pokemon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle
• Limiting Pokemon to only using a Tera Type that matches their current STAB
• Banning usage of the move Tera Blast

Showing Tera type at Team Preview

This would be the biggest restrictor of the core mechanic and perhaps is the one that has garnered the most discussion. Cons include the fact that it is still not a perfect solution to the guesswork required to play around Terastallization and it would require potential display modifications that are seen as undesirable in many circles. The pros, however, would be that it limits the pool of possibilities for players to abuse the mechanic while setting an expectation what's to come.

From a competitive point of view, it is helpful to know what every Pokemon's Tera type is, but it is still inherently challenging to line-up your counterplay with the timing of the opponent and their use of the mechanic. When a Pokemon's defensive profile can do a flip-flop on command, changing the entire type chart on whim, it makes counterplay as a whole unreliable. Surefire revenge killing methods can be dwarfed by sudden resistances and immunizations while an additional STAB typing or boost to previously existing STAB can tear through counterplay even with prior knowledge of the possibility just because all game will be played in fear of the prospect and it adds a premium offensive bonus that is not seen through other means regardless of what information is disclosed.

This restriction may cut closest to the core of the problem, but it still does not assure the balancing of Terastallization and implementation is controversial.

Limiting the amount of Pokemon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle

One can argue that the layers of unpredictability will be minimized if less Pokemon can possibly utilized the mechanic, potentially limiting it to a smaller pool of Pokemon on each team or even just a singular Pokemon on each team. This can be akin to a handshake agreement made between players on the cartridge, too, that we would essentially enforce as a clause into our mechanic and implement through the teambuilder rather than as a modifier of the battle mode itself.

Limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types

Much like the above option, this would inherently restrict the abuse of Terastallization, but it would not be a full-stop to the possibility for trouble to arise. It would be more possible to keep Terastallization in the metagame without having to worry about Pokemon adopting entirely new typings to shift their match-up coverage throughout the metagame. However, adopting a Tera type within your STABs for a Pokemon with two types can still drastically shift a Pokemon's profile as you can shed weaknesses if timed properly. In addition, granting every Pokemon boosted STAB to the point that it is like they have Adaptability can be seen as problematic in it if itself.

From a competitive point of view, this would be less problematic to the metagame than leaving Terastallization entirely untouched and skirts away from the aspect many believe is the least competitive one. However, it also leaves a lot there that can prove troublesome for the playerbase, especially when this is considered to be present on top of one of the least forgiving power creeps we have ever seen. Implementing this could be seen as something akin to a handshake agreement between players, which could be more plausible as well.

Banning Tera Blast

Banning Tera Blast would be seen as the least invasive, but most straightforward and precedented, way to restrict Terastallization. To put it bluntly, this does not address the core of the problem or the most focused on aspects of the mechanic, so it seems like a solution that should only be elected if this concept is viewed to be only slightly problematic rather than wholly.

Only so many abusers actually utilize Tera Blast as many simply prefer the additional STAB for other coverage or for making it harder to approach your Pokemon with would-be super effective attacks. Tera Blast is just one subset of the larger topic of Terastallization and this would be the most minimal restriction of the bunch, reserved for cases where only minimal reform is needed if discussion trends in that direction.

No Tiering Action

In the event that Terastallization is seen as a concept conducive to competitive play, bringing out an acceptable metagame state with it involved on a consistent basis, then we would opt to not change the application of the core mechanic whatsoever. This would neglect to address any of the above points about the burdens of type changing on counterplay or the potential issues with the additional strength provided to Pokemon through boosted STAB or a novel STAB type as well. However, neglecting these matters could be seen as acceptable if they do not seem overly problematic to the bulk of the playerbase. This will almost surely be an option in any suspect or vote on the matter of Terastallization because of this and the fact that it is the status quo. It is important to us that many players see Terastallization as a draw to participating in our metagames; while it is the first and foremost priority to maintain competitive integirty and balance, it is also a factor to have generations motivate players to participate and have an identity. This premise is a large driver behind the potential for no tiering action or limited restrictions, and additionally add a potentially higher burden of proof to the outright ban side as well.

Timeline

Regarding the timelime, this thread will be open and active for at least the bulk of the next week. There is a chance it spans beyond this week if a line-of-action is still not determined. This allows for us to amass a larger quantity of opinions and come to an informed decision on what may be one of the most important tiering topics ever. We have an open mind now and hope the community can help lead us in the best direction possible.

December is likely to have some sort of suspect on Terastallization -- be it with two options or potentially more -- that will be the first of the generation. We are likely to have this suspect be longer than the normal one, potentially spanning three weeks rather than two, given the importance of the subject matter.

---

Finally, banning the most broken abusers of Terastallization is a concept that we should be avoiding at all costs as an alternative to any of the above options as a long-term best practice. This is not an actual solution as we would just end up de-creeping the metagame to the point that the new top abusers would assume similarly troublesome roles potentially. If we are approaching a suggestion of this, then it is best to shift focus onto considering an outright ban or restriction!

It is important that posts in this thread stay on-topic and within the realm of possibilities. Please avoid posts without substance or any personal attacks while staying in-line with feasible options (such as those listed in this OP) rather than getting off track.

 

[Blitz467]

I find the Tera to be the nicest competitive upgrade in the game indeed for its surprise. It makes players more pro active and not just knowing everything about each pokemon and all that fear turning around and that's amazing. It's like a game of poker. The bluff and the surprise are part of the game so you are alert to everything. It's time to evolve guys I think. Chess is old, we can play poket its fun! Haha But seriously this is a game that ALL POKEMONS CAN TERACRYSTALIZE of all types so even if you get tricked you can surprise it too! STOP KILLING THE GAME. This kind of stuff makes me lose interest in being in this community. At worst, for example, if some tera are too strong, banish them, for example Teranociv, tera steel cannot be an example again, but don't touch this magnificent game mechanic. game not everything has to be PREDICTABLE Thanks for listening to my TedTalk Hahaha

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Imo tera opens up options too much, because between tera and tera blast there's potentially an out to anything that comes up. I doubt the meta will truly settle. Even narrowing it down to 2-3 types is still too much to realistically handle past a point and with it being available to literally every mon, I think it's very much past that point.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

STOP KILLING THE GAME. This kind of stuff makes me lose interest in being in this community. At worst, for example, if some tera are too strong, banish them, for example Teranociv, tera steel cannot be an example again, but don't touch this magnificent game mechanic. game not everything has to be PREDICTABLE

Nice argument there bruv

 

[ant4456]

Nice argument there bruv

"Joined: 9 minutes ago"

accidentally posted it twice seemingly?

yeah uh... go easy on em

 

[Chorenn]

I don't mean to sound like a grandpa with this, but please stop saying "You can't ban the main mechanic of Gen 9!!!" as an entire argument. You're unintentionally implying that Generations 1-4 have zero identity because they don't have That Big Fuck You Thing You Gotta Use like more current ones.

Anyways, not what I wanted to say. I came to ask if anyone has played in Gen 9 NatDex along with Gen 9 OU has a rough impression on how the inevitable Home integration will impact the choice that Tera stays around from their experience of it in NatDex (Assuming it doesn't get re-tested when Home does drop). I fully understand it's an apples to oranges comparison meta-wise, but both are fruit and I don't really think this aspect is getting as much discussion as it should be.

 

[TCTphantom]

The one thing I will chime in with is that when the suspect test occurs, I hope the outcomes are chosen through ranked choice voting. There are a variety of proposals on the table and I would hate to see this forced in a binary yes terra no terra situation. Smogon has done this for a few suspects in the past, like with Garchomp and Sand Veil in Gen V. People seem to be dug into different corners of the Terra discussion as things are right now. I personally want to preserve the mechanic as much as possible. I know others want to nuke it. There are so many different outcomes between that we are discussing and evaluating. With how broad the spectrum of outcomes is, I think we should really pursue this.

 

[MomentumJunkie]

This will be the public thread for discussion of Terastallization as the metagame thread is too multifaceted already. The Policy Review thread will be monitored closely and can be found here!

---

The release of Pokemon Scarlet and Violet on the 18th of November brought us a brand new core mechanic, Terastallization. This thread will be used to discuss the tiering of Terastallization in Smogon's Overused metagame.

Here is how the new mechanic functions:

• Any Pokemon can utilize it, but it can only be done once per battle
• Upon Terastallizing, a Pokemon will retain the effects even if they switch out, lasting until they faint
• Each Pokemon has a "Tera type" that you can strategically pick in the teambuilder
• This type becomes your sole defensive typing
• You retain initial STABs, but also gain STAB on your "Tera type" if it is a novel type
• If your "Tera type" is one of your STABs, then you get an additional boost akin to the ability Adaptability
• "Tera Blast" is a new move every Pokemon learns that is 80 BP and will take the form of your "Tera type"
• "Tera Blast" will take the form of your highest attacking stat at the time of usage

As you can see, this mechanic is entirely novel, not closely resembling any prior concept we have seen in Pokemon prior to this generation. The competitive implications of Terastallization have been assessed since the release last week, but also continue to be assessed by our growing playerbase in our constantly evolving metagame. One constant in discussions about early tiering have been the potential for Terstallization to be the focus of tiering action.

Here is a post showing ten common examples of effective Terrastalization in the metagame. Notice the variation between the effect and use of each one; there are a number of examples that work offensively, defensively, or even both simultaneously. A couple of the sets use Tera Blast, a couple of the sets abuse the added boost to previously existing STAB, a couple of the Pokemon solely focus on the shifted defensive typing to grant wider match-up coverage, a couple of the Pokemon use the additional STAB typing to bolster their complimentary attacks, and so on. It is very hard to isolate a single aspect of Terastallization as the best or worst as they all play very important and pressing roles in the metagame on numerous Pokemon.

Given how potent and focal Terastallization has been thus far, it has been deemed appropriate to open a thread on its tiering placement. There are three potential outcomes for Terastallization: outright ban, restriction, and no tiering action. The former two fall into the camp of tiering action being needed while the latter one maintains the current status quo. Let's discuss all three possibilities!

Outright ban

An outright ban is Terstallization will remove the entire concept from the metagame with no strings attached. This can be seen as the "nuclear option" as it removes the entire core mechanic from the current generation of OU, but in extreme cases a nuclear option may be necessary to reach the ideal result. In this case, the ideal result is a competitive metagame and we would resort to this option if it is determined that there is no place for Terastallization in a competitive environment.

There has been a significant amount of buzz about removing Terastallization from the metagame altogether as the alternatives, which will be discussed below in the "restriction" and "no tiering action" sections, all leave things to be desired. They all come with their own respective cons, but the collective pro of preserving some semblance of the generation's core mechanic in the metagame. As for an outright ban, it is the opposite -- if we were to go to this option, we would face the con of it being removed altogether, but have the pro of avoiding a potentially ideologically flawed or inconsistent method chosen as our solution.

In terms of practical outlook, a lot can be said as to having the ability to change defensive typing making finding consistent counterplay to Pokemon an impossibility. Terrstalization fundamentally alters how we approach handling the wide array of threats our metagame presents us, occasionally forcing the metagame to resort to extremes with a surplus of revenge killers to minimize prospects or a surplus of extreme walls to outright blank Terastallization options on more dynamic offensive presences. It is possible to argue that this concept as a whole does not belong in a competitive metagame due to how much it warps how we play and how even with the closest attention to detail, it can be seen as an unreasonable ask to handle both Pokemon in their original state and these Pokemon with altered types. However, it is also true that more experienced players have began to expect specific Terstallizations from specific opposing Pokemon. This at least adds a layer of strategy and a component of prediction to the matter. It is true that there can be some guesswork when it comes to timing and specifics, but it also takes proper usage to reep the rewards of Terastallization.

The move Tera Blast also warrants discussion. It has been serving as a practical tool to a number of Pokemon in the metagame with a STAB boost and being able to adapt to your stronger offensive side. The limiting factor of it is that it does take up a valuable moveslot and it also is only 80 base power. This makes the viable pool of Tera Blast users slightly limited, but there are still a good amount of users overall. We can say that Tera Blast alone as a concept is not the most overwhelming thing we have seen and may be tolerable in a vacuum as of now, but there are still lots of new applications of it popping up that give Tera Blast potential to get scarier by the day in the metagame.

Overall, the main selling point for an outright ban would be that the sudden type shifting is seen as an uncompetitive element of the metagame, thus making the premise of the core mechanic banworthy. It is currently yet to be seen as to if the playerbase views this dynamic as competitive or uncompetitive, but we will use this thread to assess that matter and guide us in proceeding.

Restriction

The idea of restricting Terastallization has been floated on numerous occasions to the council and to tiering administration. The underlying idea behind these prospects would be that it preserves the core mechanic of the generation, granting the metagame some defining characteristics while maintaining a playerbase drawing feature to some degree. It is true, however, that neither of these two pieces of reasoning have any direct correlation to competitiveness, which is the foremost focus in any tiering discussion.

In addition, we are working under the premise that if any restriction does get implemented and the mechanic still proves problematic afterwards, then at this point we would be far more likely to cut any losses and not try any further restrictions, but rather an outright ban. This means that the focus of this will be to see if there is any plausible restriction to Terastallization that could balance it enough to remain in the metagame rather than being on trying to preserve as much as possible on the basis that it can always be further restricted, which we will not waste the bulk of the generation on leveling out.

Some proposed restrictions we have seen are:

• Showing the Tera type of each Pokemon in the each player's party at Team Preview
• Limiting the amount of Pokemon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle
• Limiting Pokemon to only using a Tera Type that matches their current STAB
• Banning usage of the move Tera Blast

Showing Tera type at Team Preview

This would be the biggest restrictor of the core mechanic and perhaps is the one that has garnered the most discussion. Cons include the fact that it is still not a perfect solution to the guesswork required to play around Terastallization and it would require potential display modifications that are seen as undesirable in many circles. The pros, however, would be that it limits the pool of possibilities for players to abuse the mechanic while setting an expectation what's to come.

From a competitive point of view, it is helpful to know what every Pokemon's Tera type is, but it is still inherently challenging to line-up your counterplay with the timing of the opponent and their use of the mechanic. When a Pokemon's defensive profile can do a flip-flop on command, changing the entire type chart on whim, it makes counterplay as a whole unreliable. Surefire revenge killing methods can be dwarfed by sudden resistances and immunizations while an additional STAB typing or boost to previously existing STAB can tear through counterplay even with prior knowledge of the possibility just because all game will be played in fear of the prospect and it adds a premium offensive bonus that is not seen through other means regardless of what information is disclosed.

This restriction may cut closest to the core of the problem, but it still does not assure the balancing of Terastallization and implementation is controversial.

Limiting the amount of Pokemon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle

One can argue that the layers of unpredictability will be minimized if less Pokemon can possibly utilized the mechanic, potentially limiting it to a smaller pool of Pokemon on each team or even just a singular Pokemon on each team. This can be akin to a handshake agreement made between players on the cartridge, too, that we would essentially enforce as a clause into our mechanic and implement through the teambuilder rather than as a modifier of the battle mode itself.

Limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types

Much like the above option, this would inherently restrict the abuse of Terastallization, but it would not be a full-stop to the possibility for trouble to arise. It would be more possible to keep Terastallization in the metagame without having to worry about Pokemon adopting entirely new typings to shift their match-up coverage throughout the metagame. However, adopting a Tera type within your STABs for a Pokemon with two types can still drastically shift a Pokemon's profile as you can shed weaknesses if timed properly. In addition, granting every Pokemon boosted STAB to the point that it is like they have Adaptability can be seen as problematic in it if itself.

From a competitive point of view, this would be less problematic to the metagame than leaving Terastallization entirely untouched and skirts away from the aspect many believe is the least competitive one. However, it also leaves a lot there that can prove troublesome for the playerbase, especially when this is considered to be present on top of one of the least forgiving power creeps we have ever seen. Implementing this could be seen as something akin to a handshake agreement between players, which could be more plausible as well.

Banning Tera Blast

Banning Tera Blast would be seen as the least invasive, but most straightforward and precedented, way to restrict Terastallization. To put it bluntly, this does not address the core of the problem or the most focused on aspects of the mechanic, so it seems like a solution that should only be elected if this concept is viewed to be only slightly problematic rather than wholly.

Only so many abusers actually utilize Tera Blast as many simply prefer the additional STAB for other coverage or for making it harder to approach your Pokemon with would-be super effective attacks. Tera Blast is just one subset of the larger topic of Terastallization and this would be the most minimal restriction of the bunch, reserved for cases where only minimal reform is needed if discussion trends in that direction.

No Tiering Action

In the event that Terastallization is seen as a concept conducive to competitive play, bringing out an acceptable metagame state with it involved on a consistent basis, then we would opt to not change the application of the core mechanic whatsoever. This would neglect to address any of the above points about the burdens of type changing on counterplay or the potential issues with the additional strength provided to Pokemon through boosted STAB or a novel STAB type as well. However, neglecting these matters could be seen as acceptable if they do not seem overly problematic to the bulk of the playerbase. This will almost surely be an option in any suspect or vote on the matter of Terastallization because of this and the fact that it is the status quo. It is important to us that many players see Terastallization as a draw to participating in our metagames; while it is the first and foremost priority to maintain competitive integirty and balance, it is also a factor to have generations motivate players to participate and have an identity. This premise is a large driver behind the potential for no tiering action or limited restrictions, and additionally add a potentially higher burden of proof to the outright ban side as well.

Timeline

Regarding the timelime, this thread will be open and active for at least the bulk of the next week. There is a chance it spans beyond this week if a line-of-action is still not determined. This allows for us to amass a larger quantity of opinions and come to an informed decision on what may be one of the most important tiering topics ever. We have an open mind now and hope the community can help lead us in the best direction possible.

December is likely to have some sort of suspect on Terastallization -- be it with two options or potentially more -- that will be the first of the generation. We are likely to have this suspect be longer than the normal one, potentially spanning three weeks rather than two, given the importance of the subject matter.

---

Finally, banning the most broken abusers of Terastallization is a concept that we should be avoiding at all costs as an alternative to any of the above options as a long-term best practice. This is not an actual solution as we would just end up de-creeping the metagame to the point that the new top abusers would assume similarly troublesome roles potentially. If we are approaching a suggestion of this, then it is best to shift focus onto considering an outright ban or restriction!

It is important that posts in this thread stay on-topic and within the realm of possibilities. Please avoid posts without substance or any personal attacks while staying in-line with feasible options (such as those listed in this OP) rather than getting off track.

I am pro restriction, as trying one before nuking tera feels more fair and interesting.

Banning tera blast feels like the worst option, as it is a niche option in the wide majority of cases and even when it's good it has significant opportunity cost. Thus far it has only been good on pokemon that are already great without it, at most giving them some extra options(like making physical dragapult less of a meme)

Types on team preview feels like the best but probably hardest to implement. It can also be represented as a gentlemen's agreement, as it could easily be shared by players playing the game in cart, but it will probably be really annoying to implement(which is relevant since there is a significant chance that tera still gets banned afterwards). This also feels like a great precedent for other tiers, as while the priority is on OU, OU is held as a standard for other metagames to follow.

Restricting which Pokemon can tera is interesting as it does address a significant amount of the uncertainty, but I feel it'd be hard to find an exact solution the community can agree on, and I fear it'd lead to tera being banned in a more hostile environment and lead to way more discussion afterwards, which is what we want to avoid.

Restricting to stab types feels like the most realistic option, as it does help a lot with unpredictability, and the abusers that still exist will generally be things that still are really powerful either way. In a way it preserves a lot of the strategic upsides of the mechanic while still being manageable, so it'd be the second best option after tera team preview in my opinion

 

[Upstart]

Honestly, I would vote NO BAN at least for now.

TLDR: I believe with only a little over a week in the meta, it is too early to say one way or another. After a lot of testing, I find that the tera actually highlights the better player more often than not. Yes, it sucks to lose because you didn't pack the right tera type. But this is three fold: 1. Team building is ever more important than ever before , 2. Knowing when to and when not to tera is a feasible read in higher ranked battles, and 3. the meta will become more standardized as every gen does (right now, every type is possible which seems scary on paper, but in tournaments or high levels standardized will become the status quo).

I don't want to send the baby out with the bath water as I believe tera max adds the most interesting dynamic to date that enhances the competitive and strategic backbone of Pokémon. At the very least give it a little more time, and run a suspect ladder to retest any mons banned in the process of keeping tera a little longer.

 

[NoeL7]

How about restreining one tera-type per trainer ? Like champions during the main scenario quest ?

During your team building you choose ONE tera-type which is shown to your opponent and that you can use on any pokémon.

 

[1LDK]

How about restreining one tera-type per trainer ? Like champions during the main scenario quest ?

During your team building you choose ONE tera-type which is shown to your opponent and that you can use on any pokémon.

the guessing game at that point becomes a guess who
Does your tera is..... dark?
yeah
proceeds to discard half of your team

i think it removes everything aspect of prediction while maintining the "now he can counter me" aspect, idk i just dont like it

 

[MomentumJunkie]

Hello, competitive casual player, I am absolutely against the Teracrystal ban.

First of all I would like to know why ban so quickly the main mechanic of the generation after only 2 weeks! In 6VS6 single player strategies, this is a ridiculously short time to grasp all the options available to us and to allow time for a meta to settle in. There is no rush at this point and if indeed there is a problem, banning may be the solution under certain conditions.

Then if there is a ban, the "Tera Team Preview" seems to be the best solution in my opinion.

1) Knowing which pokemon can Tera in which types will allow more complex game plans by being accessible to both players.

2) More options = more diversity in the pokemons used which reduces the redundancy of some games that tend to look the same in 8g.

3) The terablast allows as many things in my opinion as a Hidden Power, and moreover with the team preview we would already know what type it would be unlike the Hidden Power.

4) It keeps its potential in both offensive and defensive teams.

5) Banning the main mechanic again will scare away potential new players and thus slowly kill the Smogon community.

I'm putting this down here but choosing who goes first in Random Battle would be welcome for this 9G.

Thanks for listening,

Kisses from France :-*

I agree with the sentiment of trying to preserve it, but having experienced dynamax, i fell some of your points just aren't true (take it from another long term competitive casual player)

More options often decreases diversity. It seems counter intuitive but in a meta with far too many viable things there will be few options with any degree of consistency that will rise to the top. That isn't necessary bad, but the best case scenario is something like gen 7 where there are over a 100 mons genuinely viable on OU but to run most of them the rest of your team will probably need to be 5 staples 1 unique option.
The added complexity can be really interesting if properly managed, but there is a chance that a lot of the complexity can become closer to yes or no guessing games of "do they tera now and take away my counter play" with little way to know (team preview would help a lot with that since you'd better know how tera could be used).
2 weeks would be a short time for a quickban, but we are merely opening the discussions, there will still be time for implementation.
As for scaring away new players, I saw a lot of new players excited because that was one less thing to learn about, and it's worth double for tera since it can be really intimidating to team build with it, so I don't think it will really hurt the Smogon community. We still had a nice increase in players during gen 8 with it banned.
I hope I didn't sound too agressive I am not great with forums
A nice hug from Brazil

 

[alephgalactus]

You're unintentionally implying that Generations 1-4 have zero identity because they don't have That Big Fuck You Thing You Gotta Use like more current ones.

They kind of did have That Big Fuck You Thing though. Gen 1 had… well, everything, Gen 2 had held items, Gen 3 had Abilities, and Gen 4 had good held items (and Stealth Rock).

 

[Xcross15]

Oh boy first post in forever.

Currently I am firmly in the Do not Ban camp. In the couple weeks since the game came out, Tera has done nothing to show me that it is uncompetitive mechanic, only one that is different.

Starting at the top, the metagame is currently in a relative state of infancy as it comes to Tera, and it makes sense people are uncomfortable with the novelty presented in this Gen. I have seen only a handful of games definitively won by a clutch Tera and all of them it was a "Damn, I just got outplayed" moment or a "Big time outplays" moment. In the short time we have had with the mechanic standardized sets are starting to form. (Can anybody think of any Pokémon that uses more than 3 non-stab tera types?) To be honest I wish there were visible stats somewhere of which pokemon used which tera type before any decision ever gets made. But given all the water Anihilapes, flying RM and fighting Goldengho running around, I feel it is more prudent to vote to hold off on any tiering decision until things settle further.

Another point to this is that no pokemon currently banned has been deemed too strong because of its capability to use Tera, and all of the top threats in the metagame are still top threats with or without extra types, stab or adaptability. (Nothing like Mega Blaziken or Mega Lucario, or perhaps Dynamax Gyrados as a more recent example)

On another note, recall a time before team preview. Was it deemed uncompetitive to not see what Pokémon your opponent had out of hundreds of potential options, let alone each set that they could be running? Pokemon has always had an aspect of prediction built into its metagame as well as the aspect of beating those predictions, it's what keeps the game separate from something like chess. Is another layer of predictions that people need to learn uncompetitive or is that just a symptom of the new shifts?

For the first time since gen 6 there is a generational mechanic that does not feel either ludicrously broken in a singles setting or is just a glorified extra powerful single move. There is a much more tangible array of outplay possibilities here, that everyone commenting in this thread does not know the backwards, forwards and sideways of already. I won't lie, aside from the reigonal dex Metas at the start of each gen, the game has felt pretty stale, with the new faces quickly drowned by old staples. Over the years I have found a comfortable niche in RU and NU, only jaunting into OU at the start of each Gen. But Tera as a mechanic drops a tactical nuke into the middle of all the optimization and theory that has been crafted over the years. A welcome addition that shakes the rust off the familiar faces in the OU tier. For the time being, of the options presented No tiering action. Is the preferable option, as I think the chaos of early Tera Meta needs time to sort itself out further before tiering decisions can be made.

That said, if there is no way out but to do something, Tera Team Preview is the second best option given that it takes out half the guesswork as uncompetitive as that still is. The surprise and outplay factors of Tera are its biggest strengths and are no different than slotting an off-meta move or pokemon and having it pay off.

Anyways, I think I will stop the post here, had to rewrite this once already when the website randomly refreshed for no reason.

 

[Xcross15]

They kind of did have That Big Fuck You Thing though. Gen 1 had… well, everything, Gen 2 had held items, Gen 3 had Abilities, and Gen 4 had good held items (and Stealth Rock).

Physical Special Split comes to mind.

 

[JforJeff]

Tera should be banned or at the least kept in its own ladder/metagame. The battle should be determined by your Pokémon and your execution. Tera messes up those things.

Also and this is 100% just my opinion, I think it looks dumb so I’d rather not see Bedazzled Pokémon with flower hats in my matches lol.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Doesn't the fact that there are suggestions to resist terastallization mean that it's broken and should be banned?

What? No, what the fuck kinda reasoning is that?

Hi!
First of all I apologise for my english level... I hope I will be understand....
I come from Fildrong's comunity. Concerning the terracristal, i hope it will not banned... I prefer the option of just some pokemon can use the terracristal or you can terracristal with the the same type.
That's all for me see you.

Don't worry, it's not perfect, but we can understand you very well.

A lot of us aren't native speakers either, me included. Keep working on it champ.

I would like to see if players (eventually) get good at predicting tera types based on their opponents' team comp, or if that is even possible to do reliably, before outright banning the mechanic. Pre-team-preview-gen chads we need your expertise

I got you fam.

Once upon a time, when even old farts that have been playing since RBY competitively or not, there was no team preview.

Somewhere around that time, articles were written by people who were better than me at things. It was the glorious age of Smogon's own webzine, The Smog.

And would you look at that, there were rather fascinating articles about the nature of prediction as a highly-valued skill, like these:

https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue1/introduction_to_prediction
https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue20/prediction_ubers

What does that mean? It means people gotta adapt and git gud.

If you see an Espathra on Team Preview, you can safely expect that it's going to try to roll through you with CM+Speed Boost+Stored Power shenanigans. How do we know that? We actually don't, it's just a safe guess, a prediction.

And just like that prediction, I can predict that if I can't stop it from getting two boosts, it's probably going to Tera if I switch in a Dark-type to counter Stored Power spam. Why? Because it just makes sense.
Why wait for another opportunity when a strong sweeper is already primed and ready to go? It's even better if their intended check is ripe for the taking.

Being able to identify this kind of situation correctly is how people are supposed to handle Tera right now.
It's not fail-proof, examples might not be as clear-cut as this one, and sometimes you can predict wrong, but them's the breaks. A whole lot of things in this game boil down to making the right read.

Everything that someone does in a Pokémon game carries some risk, this isn't a solved game. Y'all want a flowchart game? Play tic-tac-toe. We're out here hustling in these streets, we picking that Focus Blast and you can be damn sure we gon get you with it because 70% of the time, it hits every time suckas!

For the sake of simplicity, Let's assume that the kingambit is at +2 but is at half health, the breloom is at full health, and nobody is switching. So when I'm trying to revenge kill, with tera legal, the following can occur:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.
2. Breloom uses Mach Punch as Kingambit predicts that and Tera Ghost, then kills Breloom with +2 Iron Head.
3. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit predicts Mach Punch and Tera Ghost, but Bullet Seed kills.
4. Breloom uses Bullet Seed as Kingambit remains Dark/Steel, tanks it, and kills Breloom with +2 Iron head.

The same situation with Tera banned is much simpler:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.

The same situation with Tera banned is much simpler:
1. Breloom uses Mach Punch and Kingambit dies.

2. Kingambit gets the fuck out of dodge and switches into something that can tank the Mach Punch and threaten Breloom/do something useful.

Oops, all 50/50s. Guess we'd better throw this game in the bushes.

Yes, I'm outright ignoring the part where you mention "for the sake of simplicity, let's assume no switching" because we ain't playing NPCs out there. People switch when they think it's the best course of action. There is no simplicity in this game. There was never any semblance of simplicity in this game.

 

[Moyashi]

I got you fam.

Once upon a time, when even old farts that have been playing since RBY competitively or not, there was no team preview.

Somewhere around that time, articles were written by people who were better than me at things. It was the glorious age of Smogon's own webzine, The Smog.

And would you look at that, there were rather fascinating articles about the nature of prediction as a highly-valued skill, like these:

Impressive that you ignore the fact these were written in an era with a far lower power level, where there was less of a punish to a lack of info. There is a very good reason team preview exists nowadays.

If you see an Espathra on Team Preview, you can safely expect that it's going to try to roll through you with CM+Speed Boost+Stored Power shenanigans. How do we know that? We actually don't, it's just a safe guess, a prediction.

And just like that prediction, I can predict that if I can't stop it from getting two boosts, it's probably going to Tera if I switch in a Dark-type to counter Stored Power spam. Why? Because it just makes sense.
Why wait for another opportunity when a strong sweeper is already primed and ready to go? It's even better if their intended check is ripe for the taking.

Espathra is the worst example you could've chosen because it is probably one of the best example of Tera doing too much. Being able to circumvent priority revenge attempts while gaining coverage it wasn't given normally (which was intentional as a balancing factor). The ability to turn what is supposed to be a true check into set up fodder by changing your typing, this fundamentally ignores much of the balance of pokemon type match ups, and its a big reason why Terastilize in its current state is simply not suited for a competitive environment.

2. Kingambit gets the fuck out of dodge and switches into something that can tank the Mach Punch and threaten Breloom/do something useful.

Oops, all 50/50s. Guess we'd better throw this game in the bushes.

In a normal balanced game Kingambit should be forced to switch to something else because Breloom SHOULD be a check. It shouldn't be allowed to suddenly become resistant/immune to what is supposed to check it and flip the script for no cost (and yes, no matter how you try to spin it, there is no serious cost to terastilizing in these scenarios). The whole reason the type chart exists is to establish rules to keep the game balanced and consistent and Terastilize throws those established rules out. The power level is also far too high at this point for the mechanic at its current state to be balanced.

 

[Clueless Crusader]

I'm not good enough at competitive pokemon to have too informed of an opinion, but I'll put in a few observations:
1. The most obvious difference IMO between the good gen mechanics (Mega Evolution and Z-moves) and the bad ones (Dynamax and Tera maybe) are that the latter two don't punish having them and not using them. Megas and Zs require investing an item slot which is a big price to pay if you aren't gonna use it consistently, which kinda precluded using them on every mon, which led to them mostly being used on mons that really needed them, which made them predictable. That's an easy thing to alter, just arbitrarily pick an item with no in-game effect (I'm partial to using Heal Balls so that they can finally be useful) and declare that a requirement to Terastallize. You could even break it up by type, like Z Crystals.

2. The point about Tera being super high-variance and making matches hinge on specific moments reminds me of the debate about whether 3-pointers are killing the NBA. Stay with me I promise there's a good point here.

The 3-pointer was originally introduced to the NBA as part of their ongoing quest to make the NBA less dominated by defensive big men. After the ridiculous career of Bill Russell (11 championships and 5 MVPs in 13 seasons) and the success of Russell-like big men like Bill Walton and Wes Unseld, the NBA really wanted to give shorter players a chance, and added the line in the 1979-80 season. 3 and a half decades later, and the reign of defensive bigs finally started to crack when Steph Curry led the Golden State Warriors to 5 straight NBA Finals and 3 championships from 2014-15 through 18-19, with the top defender being the 6'6 Draymond Green. 3 pointers exploded leaguewide in the wake of the Warriors dynasty, with teams beginning to wonder if 3s were actually OP.

How does this connect to Tera? Threes have become incredibly centralizing, with 38.8% of all shots this year coming from behind the arc, and another 30% coming right at the rim, offences are arguably less diverse than ever before. The NBA game has become much higher scoring (a league-average offence this year scores 112.6 points per 100 possessions, up from 105.6 in 2014-15, when the Warriors won their first title, and last year offences scored 112.0 points per 100). Detroit Pistons head coach Dwayne Casey said "it often looks like no defence is being played... it's impossible to cover that much ground against NBA speed, quickness, and power." Three pointers have also made the game much more chaotic, as a greater amount of game scoring relies on a few threes. The Utah Jazz entered the season openly trying to lose after trading away their two-best players, Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. They have the tenth-best record in the NBA, and the 4th-best offence, in part by making the third-most threes in the league. The Sacramento Kings have gone from the league's 7th-worst team to its 8th-best, thanks to the league's 3rd-best offense making the 5th-most threes per game. Threes make defence impossible and make games come down to who makes the shots, which makes things higher-variance, the very things Terastallizing is accused of. While yes, the players obviously hit or miss the shots, the same could be said of Showdown players making or not making the Tera predictions.

So what's the NBA's solution? ESPN's Kevin Arnovitz (https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/in...ba-insiders-say-all-3s-reaching-critical-mass) found some support for changes to the three-pointer in the 2021 offseason, with ideas including a cap on 3s per game and a proposal from Daryl Morey (whose Rockets became the 1st team ever to shoot more 3s than 2s in a season) to reduce the value of the shot to 2.5 points. Despite this, the NBA did not opt to nerf 3-pointers. There were attempts to limit some of the 3-happiest stars, like James Harden and Damian Lillard, by changing the officiating to make it harder for them to draw fouls on certain plays. Overall, the NBA, a professional league where billions of dollars hinge on being fair and competitive, considered a highly offensive, highly unpredictable metagame to be perfectly acceptable. This doesn't mean we (I say this like I'll ever ladder enough in a suspect to vote) can't rule differently, but IMO it's a strong point in favour of the idea that Tera forcing predictions and making defence way harder isn't necessarily uncompetitive.

TL;DR I'm in favour of Teras requiring items as a restriction, and at least one multibillion-dollar sports league is happy with having lots of offense and lots of unpredictability, which is IMO solid evidence that these things aren't inherently uncompetitive.