Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

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jdcomix

MukenTuken said:
I wish gamefreak would stop creating these gimmicks so we do not have to go through this popularity contest every new gen...

People have to remind themselves: GF balances (If they actually do) around VGC. And the only reason VGC exists is to be an entertainment format trying to lure viewers into the franchise to make more money. Smogon is fundamentally different from a company and should only care about balance.

Player numbers arent irrelevant but dynamax ban had barely any impact on them either. People just split between natdex and OU because of dexcut. (The other thread had some stats on that)
And hype-riders/new gen tourists come and go regardless of any tiering decision.

Tiering guidelines exist for good reason. I cannot understand how going through (potentially multiple) restrictions, completely re-evaluating the whole meta with every layer, can ever be worth it.

Hoping that smogon does not submit to the cancel culture mob and just bans this mechanic, when deemed necessary. Like they have done for decade(s) with great success.
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ah yes, cancel culture is when a fictional game mechanic is banned in competitive play
 
GraylyHen94

GraylyHen94

People who have this knee jerk reaction after the meta has been out for barely two weeks are dim witted. You guys were matrixed so hard by Dynamax that you can't tolerate the slightest bit of variance ever again. You are all being ridiculous when you larp that it's this evil 50/50 with no end in sight, that BRO EVERY TURN IS A 50/50 NOW WOOOOOAH, and that it only benefits offense. Fuck outta here with that. I've been using this in doubles for a while now and it's saved me defensively a plethora of times when I needed it to not get beat down by Mons like Flutter Mane. The defensive application of this mechanic cannot be separated from the offense, anyone advocating that BRO OFFENSE SHOULD GET NOTHING OMG are stupid. Think for five minutes before you mash out a paragraph about muh 50/50s and BRO IT'S JUST FOR VGC (this gen has had so many changes that help singles). DMax was clearly made for doubles yes, it's side effects boost/debuff both of your Mons/their Mons. Explain to me exactly how this mechanic was meant to ONLY affects doubles (you will be wrong). This can be applied to any Mon and ANY playstyle, use your head and stop being so narrow sighted. If you're gonna say this mechanic is uncompetitive you should make good arguments for it, not reactionary bullshit and false claims about VGC
 
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Beaf Cultist

Beaf Cultist

Negative Charge said:
A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, presenting the viewer with only two absolute choices when in fact, there could be many.
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actual nonsense. i’m not saying there are only two options, i’m saying only two options are actually good. smogon has never gone to such absurd lengths just to save someone’s favorite gimmick before and i don’t see why they would now. i’d appreciate it if you didn’t shit on me for absolutely no reason next time you quote something of mine.

also man, just looked at the posts above me, and this thread is getting toxic af. now i remember why i stuck to pet mods last gen
 

Lord Xen III

Negative Charge said:
A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, presenting the viewer with only two absolute choices when in fact, there could be many.

There are numerous ways we can limit Tera that go short of a full ban. I think only having one tera + announce it at team preview is consistent with other decisions like Mega-Rayquaza clause that can be enforced IRL, even if inconsistent with cart. There's value in the mechanic that I think a lot of people would like to see in some capacity in Gen 9 competitive.
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It's not really a false dilemma. Even the OP admits that a complex solution is technically a double standard as smogon's general policy is ban it all or leave it all.
 
TheCounterTeamer

TheCounterTeamer

Beaf Cultist said:
actual nonsense. i’m not saying there are only two options, i’m saying only two options are actually good. smogon has never gone to such absurd lengths just to save someone’s favorite gimmick before and i don’t see why they would now. i’d appreciate it if you didn’t shit on me for absolutely no reason next time you quote something of mine.

also man, just looked at the posts above me, and this thread is getting toxic af. now i remember why i stuck to pet mods last gen
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Not going to absurd lengths. We just keep it OU, or we don’t. That simple.
(If you can’t tell I’m not a complex ban fan)

I would appreciate if we kept this thread to civil discussion where we actually explain our points instead of shouting at each other like people with opposite political opinions.

Let’s keep this thread non-toxic and keep it civil, mkay?

I don’t like making one-liners, so let’s hope this helps.
 
Vrin

Vrin

Beaf Cultist said:
actual nonsense. smogon has never gone to such absurd lengths just to save someone’s favorite gimmick before and i don’t see why they would now. i’d appreciate it if you didn’t shit on me for absolutely no reason next time you quote something of mine.
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This seems disingenuous to me, insofar as focusing on the framing of "gimmick" eliminates a lot of cases where Smogon actually did go to great lengths to preserve generational identity. The prominent examples are obviously Aldaron's proposal for the preservation of Drizzle in BW, tiering Megas and non-Megas separately, and Sleep clause (though that had a thin veneer of cartridge precedent at the time). What makes Terastal a "gimmick" that doesn't apply to these things? You could argue they shouldn't be used as specific precedent since they were very unique situations (and sleep clause/Aldaron's proposal are both still controversial in their own right), and I'd agree, but the point is that we can bend policy when we feel like something justifies it. And if Teramax doesn't justify at least considering a policy bend here, I don't know what does (though to be clear, I think the proposed solutions are inadequate at best or, in the case of same-type-only Tera, miss the point of the mechanic to the point where an outright ban would be more honest).

Hell I think you could argue (perhaps somewhat dishonestly) that "adapting policy to accomodate new mechanics" dates all the way back to the introduction of abilities in generation 3, when Wynaut and Wobbuffet were banned — banning non-cover-legends was a very exceptional move at the time, even if generation 4 would later normalize it by banning mons like Garcomp. Of course, the alternative would be removing abilities from the game entirely, which obviously isn't feasible, so I wouldn't use this as precedent — still, the idea that policy has to be static in every single case seems disingenuous to me; it can adapt to circumstance when something comes along that fundamentally changes the nature of the game on a large scale, as Tera does. For things like individual Pokemon bans, yeah, sticking to policy streamlines the process and ensures a (theoretically) consistent standard and balance philosophy, but an entire mechanic is clearly on a larger scale than that, for better or for worse, and can justify making an adaptation or an exception to policy.
 
GraylyHen94

GraylyHen94

Then make a policy change and don't act like it'll topple the entire website in horror and awe. People act like asking for Gren with no Protean was gonna collapse the world around us because of strawman shit. If they want to outright ban it then the first step should be to at least humor Tera preview (the only sensible initial nerf that doesn't require a fake item, beside CTC's idea of not letting the strongest Pokemon use it) then see how people feel. If it doesn't work you can take another step and if that doesn't work then you can vote on what to do next including banning it. This meta is open for three years and this is only the first 20 minutes of it. If they go for a complex route then it's not gonna mean Zekrom is allowed in OU but no Outrage or Bolt Strike. This isn't an imperial law written in stone

STAB-only Tera makes as much sense as Megas but they have to lower their IVs and EVs. You gut the mechanic entirely by doing this. Delete that from the suggestion list so people put their votes to good use. Same for Tera Blast, it's not the issue nor would removing it fix things
 
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Lord Xen III

GraylyHen94 said:
Then make a policy change and don't act like it'll topple the entire website in horror and awe. People act like asking for Gren with no Protean was gonna collapse the world around us because of strawman shit. If they want to outright ban it then the first step should be to at least humor Tera preview (the only sensible initial nerf that doesn't require a fake item, beside CTC's idea of not letting the strongest Pokemon use it) then see how people feel. If it doesn't work you can take another step and if that doesn't work then you can vote on what to do next including banning it. This meta is open for three years and this is only the first 20 minutes of it. If they go for a complex route then it's not gonna mean Zekrom is allowed in OU but no Outrage or Bolt Strike. This isn't an imperial law written in stone
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Yeah but we aren't the ones in charge of tiering policy frameworks.

And for the record , pokemon complex bans have already happened. Excadrill is allowed in BW but with sand rush restricted.

There's no imperial law but there should be clear and valid reasons why exceptions should be made.
 
GraylyHen94

GraylyHen94

Lord Xen III said:
Yeah but we aren't the ones in charge of tiering policy frameworks.

And for the record , pokemon complex bans have already happened. Excadrill is allowed in BW but with sand rush restricted.

There's no imperial law but there should be clear and valid reasons why exceptions should be made.
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I know about Excadrill and Baton Pass and the likes. People act as if changing the policy will undermine the website. Nor did I say that you were in charge. Don't get my words wrong
 
Zachthephoenix

Zachthephoenix

I think that showing tera in team preview or limiting the tera types you can change to(I.E. Banning steel or fairy or another very strong type) would be the best option. Fully banning tera this early into the game would just be unfair, but a slight bit of restrictive action should be taken. Also, Terastalisation is about as balanced as Z-crystals, which were not banned. Banning Tera blast is also an option, but tera blast is a reliable normal type stab, so this could hurt normal types in the long run.
 
ElGuigui

ElGuigui

Hi folks,

I'm a french player since 98, Pokemon has changed since this time as you know obviously. I'm here thanks to Fildrong. I hate mechanisms like Mega, Z, Dyna Tera, whatever, but times changed, and it's ok, we deal with this, take it easy I said mylself.

SinnohEevee said:
How about keeping it for Pokémon with two 4x weaknesses? At least on National Pokédex? Because except for Lunala, all of these Pokémon are trash.
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Yes but why these pokemons and not others ? Because they are only trash ? This solution will not be scalable. But I understand what you want.

hoplitejoe said:
there's like 3 types on uncertainty you're adding with tera:
1. who- you can't know who will tera in the game, which makes it so you often have to sit on your tera if you're playing defensively.
2. what- is a mon gonna tera into it's own type and be able to break through something that otherwise walls it? is it going to entirely change typings so the super effective hit you were gonna get bounces off.
3. when- this is kinda the "mega gyara" effect, even if you guess who will tera and what the type is, it's still forces 50/50s for players when the typing changes radically. even if it's teraing to one of it's own types, if it's a mon that had a duel typing a lot of the things it is weak to are gonna change. The obvious difference is this would now be true potentially for every mon, not just megas.

There's obvious ways to get round 1 and 2, but it seems likely that having to guess when something will tera is going to have to exist.

The question feels at the moment like should there be a reduction of some of these types of uncertainty and see if it's still overbearing, or is the not knowing when something's typing will change just too much trouble, and it's easier just ban it outright.
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I'm agree, but sometimes it can be anticipate as you said for the "when". Let's have an example if in OU format you have a pokemon of UU in a given team, you can consider this pokemon as a tera threat, because in normal condition he is not here.

charlieX7 said:
The argument is that the base game of Pokemon (plus all of its proxy metagames) is based upon predictions and educated guesses. Even at a lower level, making plays based upon a guess that your opponent's Chi-Yu is Specs instead of Scarf emphasizes this. Uncompetitive factors take away "skill" and replace it with alternate ways to win. Look at the Arena Trap/Shadow Tag ban. Shadow Tag allowed people to gain momentum and progress simply by switching a Pokemon in - rather than playing around the opponent's strategy. Similarly, the evasion ban took place because a Pokemon with its evasion fully boosted could win a game with little room for predictions and actual strategy. Ditto for Sleep Clause. You'll find that almost all bans on Smogon are, in fact, in place to preserve the "guessing games". Terastallization is noticeably different from these in that it embellishes the skill in a game. Making a skillful play with Tera simply has larger effects than a skillful play in a gimmick-less meta. The issue is whether or not the boost is too big. The pro-Tera side is arguing that the boost makes the game more competitive and that it will lessen as the metagame stabilizes. The pro-ban side is arguing that Tera allows for too big of a boost in power at once to be competitive. I've seen metas balance out over weeks, and from my experience, I think the safer bet is that the metagame will settle to a point where Tera's power boost are comparable to those of late-gen Z-moves. Neither side is particularly interested in the "fun" of it.
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According to me your right, I think we should wait to see the effect of the tera mechanism on the metagame. It's too soon for me. So why not set like a deadline, and see the feedback after that.

Indeed, too much bans and constraints risks to remove the interest of Terastallization and the fun from the game. However I'm agree to said that it's just too powerful, I think we all agree with this fact. But maybe, we can discover another way/strategy with somes pokemons that are forgotten for long times. I don't know. I mean when you take a topic or a problem, you must take every parameters in account, and today no one has that, because the game just left, and I really think we need more time before community take a decision. It's just my opinion maybe I'm wrong.
 
GraylyHen94

GraylyHen94

Zachthephoenix said:
I think that showing tera in team preview or limiting the tera types you can change to(I.E. Banning steel or fairy or another very strong type) would be the best option. Fully banning tera this early into the game would just be unfair, but a slight bit of restrictive action should be taken. Also, Terastalisation is about as balanced as Z-crystals, which were not banned. Banning Tera blast is also an option, but tera blast is a reliable normal type stab, so this could hurt normal types in the long run.
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Banning two types for it would not be good, those two are strong but limiting which types can be chosen ain't good. If we know people love their Steel and Fairy types then teching to beat them isn't out of the question. I'm for just keeping it period but if action has to be taken then Preview is for the best. I also realized how good Tera Blast is when I was teching Oinkologne EVs and couldn't find a STAB not named Body Slam

I want to emphasize again that it's 20 minutes into the meta, not a few months. I see VGC tournies that are banning paradox immediately LMAO. People gotta get over losing early in a game's life cycle. I want Dondozo gone from doubles but the more I play against him the more I learn, Tera is part of beating him for my teams. Block the whack ass mixup
 
ahejdi

ahejdi

So I'm not an especially great player, and I don't especially have time to be able to read through 650+ posts regarding tera and its effects on the meta from perspectives outside of my own, so if I say something that's incorrect, misleading, or has already been said ad nauseam then my apologies, please be kind when you correct me. If anything you can take this as simply testimonial from a low level player with OK observational skills. Anyways here's my line of logic and what I would support:
  1. The longer a player spend playing a specific metagame, the more knowledge they gain about that metagame.
  2. As players as a whole gain more knowledge about a specific metagame, teambuilding for that metagame becomes increasingly focused, resulting in centralization around a handful of threats both offensive and defensive.
  3. One of the big drawbacks of the terastal phenomenon is the opportunity cost of terastallizing the other pokemon on that team.
  4. Given points 1, 2, and 3, as the meta develops, more teams will naturally pop up which only have 2-3 pokemon that would bother terastallizing outside of incredibly niche circumstances.
  5. Given point 4, a limit on the number of possible terastal pokemon on a given team by itself would be ineffective as a long term solution unless it was limited to 2 or even 1 possible user.
I personally would support the option of showing tera types at team preview. It wouldn't ban the gimmick, giving us more ability to see the positive/competitive effects it could have on games while also mitigating some of the uncompetitive aspects. Giving players this information would not only benefit in games by giving players the ability to make long term game plans and open up options for midground plays to deal with the potential use of terastallization by a target with multiple viable tera types, but would also introduce interesting decisions in team building such as choosing an otherwise non-optimal tera type in order to bluff a specific set against your opponent. I'm sure better players have made these points better, but I wanted to get involved since I think there's merit to having this generational gimmick available. Sorry for the repetitive language; please be kind with your criticisms and corrections.
 
sh0shin

sh0shin

Beaf Cultist said:
Just gonna answer the first question for now, might come back to this later. Mons aren’t in any order, so some more ‘balanced’ mons could be placed between obvious brokemons.
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this post is a lot more salient with less dripping sarcasm, i think

also having played with scovillain a few times, i wouldnt rate it as unwallable, lol
 
Dhrabb

Dhrabb

is a Tiering Contributor
advaita said:
I'd like to preface this post by saying I don't find Tera as restricting as many people say in this thread. People act like this is the second coming of Dynamax when it's not even close. Dynamax was literally a free Power Construct Zygarde with multiple Contrary Draco Meteors... It was absolutely braindead compared to Terastallization and I'm glad it got banned. Mind games are not uncompetitive. They are perfectly fine within reasonable limit. I see Turn 5 in this game the same way I play around something like Z-Freeze Shock Kyurem-B in SM. I can either a) scout / mid-ground around Tera or b) go for the immediate prediction in this case. The fact he brought Kingambit in so recklessly also screams the potential swap to either Ghost- or Flying-type. Overall, the mechanic does have a bit of guessing involved but it's not anything overly egregious like a lot of the "every turn is a 50/50!!!" arguments in this thread are making it out to be. I will demonstrate more of these scenarios in the replay section, but in short I do not think Terastallization is worth taking tiering action on yet because its applications are mostly balanced offensively and defensively:

:Volcarona::Dragonite::Roaring Moon: Offensive Applications - Adding STAB

Adding STAB is one of the most common ways Terastallization is abused-- Volcarona's Giga Drain, Dragonite's Extreme Speed, Roaring Moon's Acrobatics... and a lot of users of this application tend to be predictable! When someone sends out one of the aforementioned Pokemon, any competent player knows what Tera most of these Pokemon settle with. Roaring Moon is the most versatile of all the Tera users in this category, but I would rather see a Suspect Test for it vs banning Tera in order to limit it. Second of all, not every Pokemon has the versatility of a Roaring Moon. I have experimented with unique sets such as Tera-Psychic Volcarona to get past Unaware Clodsire, but overall the set is an inconsistent matchup fish. While one can argue there are "too many possibilities", the reality of the situation is that most people on the higher end of competitive play are not going to pull up with Tera-Bug X-Scissor Iron Valiant, then proceed to sweep you 6-0.

This is definitely a bit extreme so I'd like to display a more realistic example. Here is my Round 2 tournament replay of the No Johns SV Release Tournament. Turn 17 reveals that my opponent's Volcarona has a tech in Tera Blast-Ice. It is clear that the intention of this set is to snipe Dragonite and defensive Garchomp. However, I did not have either of these Pokemon. Thus, all the set really accomplished was get phazed out then die to Sacred Sword later due to how awful Ice is defensively. If my opponent was the standard Giga Drain or Bug Buzz, my opponent could have preserved his Tera for something else and not be forced to burn it off to chip my Ting-Lu. Matchup fishes have existed for generations at this point, and using unique Tera sets still have an opportunity cost (albeit less compared to Z-Moves due to having no item lock). Overall, I find this aspect of Terastallization to be balanced.

:Skeledirge::Clodsire::Garganacl: Defensive Applications - Switching To Superior Defensive Typings

Another common way Terastallization is abused is by switching to "S-Tier" defensive typings such as Fairy, Water, and Steel. Skeledirge prefers Fairy as it allows it to function as Unaware Clefable did in previous generations, while still abusing what makes the base form great in Torch Song, Slack Off, and Will-O-Wisp. Even on more niche Pokemon, competent players can predict what typings are most likely to come out. Turn 50 of this high ladder match I played today is a great example. I was testing Arcanine and my opponent made a great play of clicking Ice Spinner, which covers both the possibility of me Terastallizing into a Fairy-type and also the potential Ting-Lu sack. There are only so many consistent typings that defensive Pokemon like to use. The final thing I would like to say is that defensive Tera will not cost entire games. For example, even if Clodsire surprises your Espathra by Tera'ing into a Dark-type, the most it will be doing is dropping a Toxic or 40% with Earthquake. I find this application of Terastallization to be balanced. I actually think it's healthy because of the breathing room it can provide teams not only in the builder, but also in practice.

:Chien-Pao::Dragapult::Chi-Yu: Offensive Applications - Compounding STAB

The fact that you can basically give any of your Pokemon an Adaptability boost can feel unfair at times. Chien-Pao goes from a great Pokemon to a Suspect Test worthy candidate by Tera'ing into an existing stab such as Ice or Dark. Chi-Yu is another Pokemon that goes from balanced to unmanageable defensively because Tera'ing into a Dark-type drops your weakness to Stealth Rock and allows you to cleanly 2HKO would be counters such as Clodsire. Dragapult is another offender as Choice Specs Dragapult has historically been held back by its low power, but by compounding your Ghost-type stab, it becomes stupid to deal with considering its 142 base speed tier. The only opportunity cost with the latter is you have to drop your Dragon-type defensively, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

While I do find this aspect of Tera to be unbalanced, I don't think it's unmanageable. A lot of Pokemon do lose their ability to consistently counter threats, but this does not effect many checks. Iron Valiant is still revenge killing a Chien-Pao, even if it's a +2 Tera-Dark Adamant Life Orb Sucker Punch. Tera can even be used reactively to deal with these proactive strategies such as Tera'ing Gholdengo into a Fighting-type. More defensive playstyles are effected the worse by this but this isn't anything new. Every generation has playstyles that are more dominant than the others, and despite this, defensive playstyles are still thriving in current SV OU. I have seen many players on the higher end of the ladder using stall, and, as we saw in the SV Release Tournament, balance and BO are very much viable! This is most likely due to us getting 3 new great Unaware users (all of which use Tera amazingly btw); the recent bans of Palafin and Iron Bundle have also allowed for more flexibility in the teambuilder of all archetypes as we can see in z0mog's series.

:Kingambit::Annihilape::Gholdengo: Defensive Applications - The Best Offense Is A Good Defense

I could not find a simpler way to phrase this so I'm going to start off with an example. Kingambit has been using Tera-Flying recently, even though none of its stabs benefit from it. Why? Because it allows you 1v1 Great Tusk. Annihilape is another good example as changing to the Water- or Normal-type limits the amount of the options to revenge kill it, where the Ghost / Fighting typing would otherwise fall short with its common weaknesses to Moonblast and Shadow Ball. Similar to Roaring Moon, I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape instead of axe'ing Tera. Finally, we have the aforementioned Gholdengo turning into a Fighting-type to check Sucker Punch users such as Chien-Pao in a pinch. While this form of Tera is very powerful, it's not outright winning games as we can see in the replays below. In the case of Flying-type Kingambit, Great Tusk can still get meaningful chip with Knock Off, while Ice Spinner is a very viable option on its own. This form of Tera is very balanced because the metagame can adapt to it and I'd actually argue it promotes more creativity in the teambuilder.
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I have only touched the surface of what this mechanic can be used in, and the mechanic is balanced in more ways than it is unbalanced in my opinion. It can be used to spinblock, absorb Toxic Spikes, and many more! I know the council wants to do something about the mechanic before majors but I don't think leaving it untouched is going to make SPL feel any less competitive. Here's why:

Round 2 of No Johns has shown a massive increase in competitive quality. Round 1 was a complete disaster with all the cheese, Palafin, and Iron Bundle, but with these being banned, I believe Tera truly adds something special to this metagame. I'd like to take a small sample size in order to reiterate this and the points I have made above:

Round 2 [Bracket B]
Competitive
Uncompetitive
No Effect

Game 1: No significant uses of Tera
Game 2: Chi-Yu is able to overload Clodsire due to the initial critical hit. I blame this more on hax because if he did not crit, iKiQ would have no reason to Tera. From mushamu's side, Tera-Flying Roaring Moon, a standard set, is accounted for in both iKiQ's teambuilding and plays here. The second critical hit was annoying, but most likely would not have mattered with Helmet Garchomp in the back. Even with Tera, I don't think there were any overly unbalanced sequence of plays in this game.


Game 1: Iron Valiant's Tera here allows Lusa to avoid a potential speed tie kill from velvet's Iron Valiant. While this can be viewed as uncompetitive, the counter play still would have existed via Extreme Speed had velvet won the tie. I didn't find Tera's inclusion here to make this game any less competitive than it could have been without the mechanic.
Game 2: Tera-Ghost Ting-Lu is phenomenal teambuilding from velvet's side to force chip damage on Annihilape. I absolutely loved that interaction. Lusa's use of Tera will probably be more controversial, but I stand by this opinion that Shadow Ball was never the play. If Lusa ended up being the Tera-Water or Tera-Fairy set, Shadow Ball would not have killed and you'd still lose another Pokemon in this exchange. Tera-Normal was a very real possibility as well (ends up being the case). My suggestion? Trick could have avoided all of this, allowing you to keep Corviknight late-game for Dragonite. I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape than Tera. The game itself wasn't "uncompetitive" by any means though.


Game 1: Game was done at the point Kingambit swapped to Tera-Flying, but I can see why someone would find that interaction as uncompetitive, despite myself touching on it in the intro and in "Defensive Applications - The Best Offense Is A Good Defense."
Game 2: Fairy Skeledirge is to be expected at this point, and jay was prepared on how to manuever around it.
Game 3: No significant uses of Tera.

Game 1: Sucker Punch would not have killed even without Tera and Tera-Fairy Espathra is to be expected at this point.
Game 2: Pretty lame game tbh, but once again, I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape instead of banning the mechanic. Annihilape is one of the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now and Tera simply just enhances these already insane capabilities.
Game 3: Amazing interaction here. So Noisy goes for the mono-Dark typing to get the safe Swords Dance on even the potential Tera-Fighting Gholdengo. However, he reveals to be Normal- here in fact. Really cool dynamic and I love the layers it adds here. Even with So Noisy's great play, Tera alone does not win him the game as Z Strats Dragonite is able to clutch up both the game and the series.


Round 2 [Bracket C]
Competitive
Uncompetitive
No Effect
Game 1: No significant uses of Tera.
Game 2: Annihilape proves why it is on the radar with its phenomenal balance breaking. Not even a Tera-Dark Dark Pulse from Chi-Yu can swing the favor into ChrisPBacon's way. Once again, I'd like to see tiering action on Annihilape instead of banning Tera.
Game 3: Steel-Tera is a bit overkill vs Blissey but one can argue whether or not the damage boost here is considered balanced, which I talked about in "Offensive Applications - Compounding STAB."

Game 1: Changing to pure Fire-type allows Chi-Yu to avoid the KO from Focus Blast. This was definitely an unexpected turn of events that can be seen as uncompetitive, but TPP was already in an unloseable position at that point. Overall a great game, albeit 1-sided.
Game 2: Great interaction. With Iron Moth using Tera-Fairy to boost Dazzling Gleam, 3d was forced to Tera-Normal as a response. This is an example of using Tera reactively and I found the sequence to be really cool.


Game 1: Mewthree69 uses his Tera-Ground to combat the standard Earthquake set. bilb owo reveals a non-standard Dragonite set in Tera-Fire Punch. As you can see, this set has its flaws because he did not get the fish he wanted and his lack of Extreme Speed. Tera was not used nor meant to outright win the game. It was just a great interaction and I loved the extra layer it added to this match.
Game 2: Tera-Electric secures the KO on Corviknight, albeit unnecessary. Tera was a non-factor here, and the fact it was used yet didn't affect the game is a testament by itself.
Game 3: Tera-Flying Roaring Moon won the game but bilb owo had counter play to it in Thunder Wave. He just got hax'd. Competent players have shown how well they can prep for the norm in their teambuilding.

Game 1: Great interaction right here. Tera-Normal is the norm when it comes to Dragonite sets and Toustar's shows his skill in the teambuilder by tech'ing Tera-Ghost on Chien-Pao. However, MZ scouts for that possibility by sacking Cyclizar, easily the most useless member on the team. Very complex layers added to the game due to Tera and I found this game to be very competitive, and one of the best examples on the list.
Game 2: No significant uses of Tera.
Game 3: Ghost Tera on Chien-Pao allows it to cheese past Corviknight in theory, but it wasn't revealed whether that attacking move was Body Press or Brave Bird. The final interaction can be viewed as uncompetitive though as Gholdengo would have forced a potential 50/50 but because of Iron Valiant's Tera-Steel, Toustar was automatically placed into the checkmate position.
_____
There is still skill involved in Tera-based SV games.
I actually think there is more skill when it comes to building this generation.
Tera is just as good when used reactively, vs being used proactively.
Tera adds more layers to the game, and not in an extremely unhealthy way Dynamax did.​

Based on this sample size, most of the games are either improved or just not effected at all by Terastallization's inclusion. As the metagame develops, these uncompetitive / unbalanced games will decrease in my opinion. Thus, I support no tiering action. Thank you for reading.
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Absolutely love this post
 
Rust Dust and Guts

Rust Dust and Guts

Christian Lacunza said:
First and foremost, what exactly does "Uncompetitive" even mean? Many people throw this word around and would say the exact definition varies.
What truly makes something "Uncompetitive" as you say? You say that you can't prep for it, but I just take it you haven't played many games. You certainly can tell, based on the fact that you think you can't predict what Tera type a Pokemon is using. Really, all you have to do is memorize all of the possible typings and proceed. For instance, let's postulate that you have a Dondozo in front of you. What typings could possibly hinder this Pokemon and prevent it from sweeping? Well, you have super-effective typings like Electric and Grass. Guess what resists both of those typings? Dragon. Suddenly Dondozo is not as unpredictable as you thought. Same goes for Dragonite, as the only real "viable" Tera type on it is Normal. You cannot tell me that you have seen another type because it is simply not true. If you can't get the point with these two examples alone, then allow me to present another: Skeledirge. What is Skeledirge weak to? Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, and Water. You know what is neutral against all of these typings? Fairy typing. A friend the other day complained to me because he lost to a Tera Ghost Kingambit vs his Breloom. If a person sends a Kingambit out against you, then obviously they've got a trick up their sleeve. I laughed in his face. When a Pokemon that is usually countered gets switched in, I.E Latios vs Weavile, you can safely assume the player is using a Choice Scarf Latios. My point is that you can generally assume the Tera typing of a Pokemon simply based on their weaknesses and your ability to predict during any given scenario.

Quite frankly, those that want an outright ban are LAZY. They don't want to try different solutions because that would require you to do actual work, which many of these ban-hungry people refuse to do. Work ethic isn't their strong suit, I put it? You don't just reject all other options because they might take a bit of time to test. Did Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. stop protesting because he was met with resistance in Selma and Montgomery? No, he valiantly continued to practice his cause and his efforts have allowed us to live peacefully today.

Anyway, I've observed some high-level matches and I can show you first hand how balanced this mechanic is: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1722191406-v596uwbvvkerey1043f5djoo4yfhqo5pw
This replay is from the #1 player on the ladder. He accurately predicted the aforementioned Tera Fairy Skeledirge. People, or shall I say humans, tend to blow things out of proportion when they see an unfamiliar tech that causes confusion. I hope that you all are able to see through the thin veneer that the OU council has so vehemently attempted to set since day one.
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Get this man on the council.
 
Dusk Mage Necrozma

Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
A complex ban seems at least reasonable but something like STAB-only Tera or removing item or restricting by tiering seems super arbitrary. Tera preview however is simple and alleviates the 50/50 predictions that seem to be the main issue with Tera, obviously there’s still uncertainty about what and when will Tera but it removes half of the prediction and is a relatively noncommittal step forward that can always become an outright ban. Of course action on Tera may not even be needed, but I’m not a good enough OU player to be able to gauge this. A lot of the scariest Tera abusers are already incredible offensive Pokemon borne of gen 9’s powercreep, so it’s hard to tell whether this fast-paced offensive metagame is due to these Pokemon or Tera itself.
 
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backslash447

backslash447

ahejdi said:
  1. The longer a player spend playing a specific metagame, the more knowledge they gain about that metagame.
  2. As players as a whole gain more knowledge about a specific metagame, teambuilding for that metagame becomes increasingly focused, resulting in centralization around a handful of threats both offensive and defensive.
  3. One of the big drawbacks of the terastal phenomenon is the opportunity cost of terastallizing the other pokemon on that team.
  4. Given points 1, 2, and 3, as the meta develops, more teams will naturally pop up which only have 2-3 pokemon that would bother terastallizing outside of incredibly niche circumstances.
  5. Given point 4, a limit on the number of possible terastal pokemon on a given team by itself would be ineffective as a long term solution unless it was limited to 2 or even 1 possible user.
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This is definitely the most based take in the thread. It's similar to Megas in this way, that certain Pokemon can take advantage of it better than others, and that there is an opportunity cost that makes it hard to justify having multiple mons that utilize the mechanic on the same team.
 
kosecant

kosecant

advaita said:
I'd like to preface this post by saying I don't find Tera as restricting as many people say in this thread. People act like this is the second coming of Dynamax when it's not even close. Dynamax was literally a free Power Construct Zygarde with multiple Contrary Draco Meteors... It was absolutely braindead compared to Terastallization and I'm glad it got banned. Mind games are not uncompetitive. They are perfectly fine within reasonable limit. I see Turn 5 in this game the same way I play around something like Z-Freeze Shock Kyurem-B in SM. I can either a) scout / mid-ground around Tera or b) go for the immediate prediction in this case. The fact he brought Kingambit in so recklessly also screams the potential swap to either Ghost- or Flying-type. Overall, the mechanic does have a bit of guessing involved but it's not anything overly egregious like a lot of the "every turn is a 50/50!!!" arguments in this thread are making it out to be. I will demonstrate more of these scenarios in the replay section, but in short I do not think Terastallization is worth taking tiering action on yet because its applications are mostly balanced offensively and defensively:

:Volcarona::Dragonite::Roaring Moon: Offensive Applications - Adding STAB

Adding STAB is one of the most common ways Terastallization is abused-- Volcarona's Giga Drain, Dragonite's Extreme Speed, Roaring Moon's Acrobatics... and a lot of users of this application tend to be predictable! When someone sends out one of the aforementioned Pokemon, any competent player knows what Tera most of these Pokemon settle with. Roaring Moon is the most versatile of all the Tera users in this category, but I would rather see a Suspect Test for it vs banning Tera in order to limit it. Second of all, not every Pokemon has the versatility of a Roaring Moon. I have experimented with unique sets such as Tera-Psychic Volcarona to get past Unaware Clodsire, but overall the set is an inconsistent matchup fish. While one can argue there are "too many possibilities", the reality of the situation is that most people on the higher end of competitive play are not going to pull up with Tera-Bug X-Scissor Iron Valiant, then proceed to sweep you 6-0.

This is definitely a bit extreme so I'd like to display a more realistic example. Here is my Round 2 tournament replay of the No Johns SV Release Tournament. Turn 17 reveals that my opponent's Volcarona has a tech in Tera Blast-Ice. It is clear that the intention of this set is to snipe Dragonite and defensive Garchomp. However, I did not have either of these Pokemon. Thus, all the set really accomplished was get phazed out then die to Sacred Sword later due to how awful Ice is defensively. If my opponent was the standard Giga Drain or Bug Buzz, my opponent could have preserved his Tera for something else and not be forced to burn it off to chip my Ting-Lu. Matchup fishes have existed for generations at this point, and using unique Tera sets still have an opportunity cost (albeit less compared to Z-Moves due to having no item lock). Overall, I find this aspect of Terastallization to be balanced.

:Skeledirge::Clodsire::Garganacl: Defensive Applications - Switching To Superior Defensive Typings

Another common way Terastallization is abused is by switching to "S-Tier" defensive typings such as Fairy, Water, and Steel. Skeledirge prefers Fairy as it allows it to function as Unaware Clefable did in previous generations, while still abusing what makes the base form great in Torch Song, Slack Off, and Will-O-Wisp. Even on more niche Pokemon, competent players can predict what typings are most likely to come out. Turn 50 of this high ladder match I played today is a great example. I was testing Arcanine and my opponent made a great play of clicking Ice Spinner, which covers both the possibility of me Terastallizing into a Fairy-type and also the potential Ting-Lu sack. There are only so many consistent typings that defensive Pokemon like to use. The final thing I would like to say is that defensive Tera will not cost entire games. For example, even if Clodsire surprises your Espathra by Tera'ing into a Dark-type, the most it will be doing is dropping a Toxic or 40% with Earthquake. I find this application of Terastallization to be balanced. I actually think it's healthy because of the breathing room it can provide teams not only in the builder, but also in practice.

:Chien-Pao::Dragapult::Chi-Yu: Offensive Applications - Compounding STAB

The fact that you can basically give any of your Pokemon an Adaptability boost can feel unfair at times. Chien-Pao goes from a great Pokemon to a Suspect Test worthy candidate by Tera'ing into an existing stab such as Ice or Dark. Chi-Yu is another Pokemon that goes from balanced to unmanageable defensively because Tera'ing into a Dark-type drops your weakness to Stealth Rock and allows you to cleanly 2HKO would be counters such as Clodsire. Dragapult is another offender as Choice Specs Dragapult has historically been held back by its low power, but by compounding your Ghost-type stab, it becomes stupid to deal with considering its 142 base speed tier. The only opportunity cost with the latter is you have to drop your Dragon-type defensively, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

While I do find this aspect of Tera to be unbalanced, I don't think it's unmanageable. A lot of Pokemon do lose their ability to consistently counter threats, but this does not effect many checks. Iron Valiant is still revenge killing a Chien-Pao, even if it's a +2 Tera-Dark Adamant Life Orb Sucker Punch. Tera can even be used reactively to deal with these proactive strategies such as Tera'ing Gholdengo into a Fighting-type. More defensive playstyles are effected the worse by this but this isn't anything new. Every generation has playstyles that are more dominant than the others, and despite this, defensive playstyles are still thriving in current SV OU. I have seen many players on the higher end of the ladder using stall, and, as we saw in the SV Release Tournament, balance and BO are very much viable! This is most likely due to us getting 3 new great Unaware users (all of which use Tera amazingly btw); the recent bans of Palafin and Iron Bundle have also allowed for more flexibility in the teambuilder of all archetypes as we can see in z0mog's series.

:Kingambit::Annihilape::Gholdengo: Defensive Applications - The Best Offense Is A Good Defense

I could not find a simpler way to phrase this so I'm going to start off with an example. Kingambit has been using Tera-Flying recently, even though none of its stabs benefit from it. Why? Because it allows you 1v1 Great Tusk. Annihilape is another good example as changing to the Water- or Normal-type limits the amount of the options to revenge kill it, where the Ghost / Fighting typing would otherwise fall short with its common weaknesses to Moonblast and Shadow Ball. Similar to Roaring Moon, I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape instead of axe'ing Tera. Finally, we have the aforementioned Gholdengo turning into a Fighting-type to check Sucker Punch users such as Chien-Pao in a pinch. While this form of Tera is very powerful, it's not outright winning games as we can see in the replays below. In the case of Flying-type Kingambit, Great Tusk can still get meaningful chip with Knock Off, while Ice Spinner is a very viable option on its own. This form of Tera is very balanced because the metagame can adapt to it and I'd actually argue it promotes more creativity in the teambuilder.
____
I have only touched the surface of what this mechanic can be used in, and the mechanic is balanced in more ways than it is unbalanced in my opinion. It can be used to spinblock, absorb Toxic Spikes, and many more! I know the council wants to do something about the mechanic before majors but I don't think leaving it untouched is going to make SPL feel any less competitive. Here's why:

Round 2 of No Johns has shown a massive increase in competitive quality. Round 1 was a complete disaster with all the cheese, Palafin, and Iron Bundle, but with these being banned, I believe Tera truly adds something special to this metagame. I'd like to take a small sample size in order to reiterate this and the points I have made above:

Round 2 [Bracket B]
Competitive
Uncompetitive
No Effect

Game 1: No significant uses of Tera
Game 2: Chi-Yu is able to overload Clodsire due to the initial critical hit. I blame this more on hax because if he did not crit, iKiQ would have no reason to Tera. From mushamu's side, Tera-Flying Roaring Moon, a standard set, is accounted for in both iKiQ's teambuilding and plays here. The second critical hit was annoying, but most likely would not have mattered with Helmet Garchomp in the back. Even with Tera, I don't think there were any overly unbalanced sequence of plays in this game.


Game 1: Iron Valiant's Tera here allows Lusa to avoid a potential speed tie kill from velvet's Iron Valiant. While this can be viewed as uncompetitive, the counter play still would have existed via Extreme Speed had velvet won the tie. I didn't find Tera's inclusion here to make this game any less competitive than it could have been without the mechanic.
Game 2: Tera-Ghost Ting-Lu is phenomenal teambuilding from velvet's side to force chip damage on Annihilape. I absolutely loved that interaction. Lusa's use of Tera will probably be more controversial, but I stand by this opinion that Shadow Ball was never the play. If Lusa ended up being the Tera-Water or Tera-Fairy set, Shadow Ball would not have killed and you'd still lose another Pokemon in this exchange. Tera-Normal was a very real possibility as well (ends up being the case). My suggestion? Trick could have avoided all of this, allowing you to keep Corviknight late-game for Dragonite. I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape than Tera. The game itself wasn't "uncompetitive" by any means though.


Game 1: Game was done at the point Kingambit swapped to Tera-Flying, but I can see why someone would find that interaction as uncompetitive, despite myself touching on it in the intro and in "Defensive Applications - The Best Offense Is A Good Defense."
Game 2: Fairy Skeledirge is to be expected at this point, and jay was prepared on how to manuever around it.
Game 3: No significant uses of Tera.

Game 1: Sucker Punch would not have killed even without Tera and Tera-Fairy Espathra is to be expected at this point.
Game 2: Pretty lame game tbh, but once again, I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape instead of banning the mechanic. Annihilape is one of the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now and Tera simply just enhances these already insane capabilities.
Game 3: Amazing interaction here. So Noisy goes for the mono-Dark typing to get the safe Swords Dance on even the potential Tera-Fighting Gholdengo. However, he reveals to be Normal- here in fact. Really cool dynamic and I love the layers it adds here. Even with So Noisy's great play, Tera alone does not win him the game as Z Strats Dragonite is able to clutch up both the game and the series.


Round 2 [Bracket C]
Competitive
Uncompetitive
No Effect
Game 1: No significant uses of Tera.
Game 2: Annihilape proves why it is on the radar with its phenomenal balance breaking. Not even a Tera-Dark Dark Pulse from Chi-Yu can swing the favor into ChrisPBacon's way. Once again, I'd like to see tiering action on Annihilape instead of banning Tera.
Game 3: Steel-Tera is a bit overkill vs Blissey but one can argue whether or not the damage boost here is considered balanced, which I talked about in "Offensive Applications - Compounding STAB."

Game 1: Changing to pure Fire-type allows Chi-Yu to avoid the KO from Focus Blast. This was definitely an unexpected turn of events that can be seen as uncompetitive, but TPP was already in an unloseable position at that point. Overall a great game, albeit 1-sided.
Game 2: Great interaction. With Iron Moth using Tera-Fairy to boost Dazzling Gleam, 3d was forced to Tera-Normal as a response. This is an example of using Tera reactively and I found the sequence to be really cool.


Game 1: Mewthree69 uses his Tera-Ground to combat the standard Earthquake set. bilb owo reveals a non-standard Dragonite set in Tera-Fire Punch. As you can see, this set has its flaws because he did not get the fish he wanted and his lack of Extreme Speed. Tera was not used nor meant to outright win the game. It was just a great interaction and I loved the extra layer it added to this match.
Game 2: Tera-Electric secures the KO on Corviknight, albeit unnecessary. Tera was a non-factor here, and the fact it was used yet didn't affect the game is a testament by itself.
Game 3: Tera-Flying Roaring Moon won the game but bilb owo had counter play to it in Thunder Wave. He just got hax'd. Competent players have shown how well they can prep for the norm in their teambuilding.

Game 1: Great interaction right here. Tera-Normal is the norm when it comes to Dragonite sets and Toustar's shows his skill in the teambuilder by tech'ing Tera-Ghost on Chien-Pao. However, MZ scouts for that possibility by sacking Cyclizar, easily the most useless member on the team. Very complex layers added to the game due to Tera and I found this game to be very competitive, and one of the best examples on the list.
Game 2: No significant uses of Tera.
Game 3: Ghost Tera on Chien-Pao allows it to cheese past Corviknight in theory, but it wasn't revealed whether that attacking move was Body Press or Brave Bird. The final interaction can be viewed as uncompetitive though as Gholdengo would have forced a potential 50/50 but because of Iron Valiant's Tera-Steel, Toustar was automatically placed into the checkmate position.
_____
There is still skill involved in Tera-based SV games.
I actually think there is more skill when it comes to building this generation.
Tera is just as good when used reactively, vs being used proactively.
Tera adds more layers to the game, and not in an extremely unhealthy way Dynamax did.​

Based on this sample size, most of the games are either improved or just not effected at all by Terastallization's inclusion. As the metagame develops, these uncompetitive / unbalanced games will decrease in my opinion. Thus, I support no tiering action. Thank you for reading.
Click to expand...
Honestly I think this has been one of the absolute best posts in the thread. What a phenomenal break down of not only all the use cases of Tera, but high level games as well. Previously I was leaning towards a restriction, but now I think fully unbanned Tera is the best and healthiest thing this meta can ask for.

On a side note, I think blunder actually brought up a great point in his discussion video for why Tera clause might actually be worse than it being unrestricted: the mind games of completely faking a set because you can see the Tera types, almost like an inverse lure set. The example brought up was a standard DD Dragonite with electric teratype but no actual electric moves to take advantage of it. The set is stonewalled by corv, but the opposing player may never bring in their corv out of fear of an electric type that doesn’t exist, or even blow their tera to make it a ground type and just lose the game right then and there
 
Beaf Cultist

Beaf Cultist

sh0shin said:
lso having played with scovillain a few times, i wouldnt rate it as unwallable, lol
Click to expand...
+2 Scovillain in sun is walled by what, Dragonite? And then if you run something like Tera Fairy you are walled endlessly by fat Fires no longer have to worry about that, even.

Also I’m just gonna go over every proposed suggestion for Tera restrictions and why I feel they’re inadequate and often completely miss the main issue.

1. Showing Tera type on preview
This just expedites the natural process of players learning optimal Tera types, while also completely ruining any strategies that rely on surprising the opponent with an unexpected Tera type, which overall makes the mechanic a LOT less interesting imo. Imagine if every mon automatically had the effects of Frisk in tandem with their normal ability. That meta would suck, and I feel the same way about this one. If we’re going to gut the interesting part of the mechanic in this way just to appease the ‘Tera is unpredictable and I hate it :((’ crowd, I’d rather just ban it.

2. Limiting the amount of Pokemon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle
If we’re going to impose artificial restrictions on a mechanic without any restrictions in-game just to balance it, I don’t really see what the difference is between this and banning moves on cover legends until they work in OU. This seems overall fruitless, makes the mechanic way more telegraphed (and therefore way less interesting), and we’re still going to have to ban a ton of mons broken by Tera anyway, so like, why?

3. Limiting Pokemon to only using a Tera Type that matches their current STAB
Giving every mon the chance to use super Adaptability is not a fun concept! The only reason I can sorta stomach it with Tera is because as a whole, Tera at least has other effects, but this just completely guts almost every defensive application of Tera, as well as practically every Tera Blast use case not named Dragapult.

4. Banning usage of the move Tera Blast
Most Tera mons don’t even run Tera Blast lol.

5. Limiting Pokemon to only using a Tera Type that does not match their current STAB
Heard this one thrown around too, and while it’s definitely better than option 3, there’s still a ton of mons that are broken by Tera regardless, it’s still super unpredictable and can completely flip matchup charts on a whim, and it’s once again an artificial restriction without reasonable justification.

6. Limiting which Pokemon can Terastallize based on their tiering (eg. no OU Teras)
It’s already been discussed pretty in-depth why this one doesn’t work, but basically this clause would completely flip how tiering works on its head in a very bad way, with mons flip-flopping between OU and UU every 3 months entirely based on how viable their Tera is. Plus, viability of Tera mons does not translate to viability without Tera. Durant was not an OU mon without Dynamax, but with DMax it was a pretty strong contender. Lucario isn’t even close to OU without Tera, but with? Terrifying mon.

7. For a Pokemon to be able to Terastallize, it cannot be holding an item
Another arbitrary restriction. I’ve said why I don’t like those earlier in the post, and this one in particular just feels like we’re trying to mimic previous gen mechanics in a way Game Freak clearly didn’t intend for Tera to. Whether or not that was a good decision is not up to Smogon imo, so a change like this just seems like a bad precedent.

8. Players ban specific Tera types/specific Pokemon from Terastalizing before each game begins
This is SO unnecessarily convoluted, and I have absolutely no idea how or why we would force the coders to have to deal with this. It’s not even close to achievable in online cartridge play unless you use some other tool to communicate with the opponent, and I’m really just unsure why this is getting so much traction.

There’s probably others so if I missed anything important let me know, but yeah, none of these really solve the core issue of Terastalizing in a convincing and in-line-with-previous-policy way, so I really do think Ban or No Ban are the only reasonable options.
 
Wolf-X

Wolf-X

It impresses me how ppl complain so much about tera types been ''guessing/game changing mechanic that u cant control'', but then we accept moves missing 30% or 20% of the time, flinching, defense drops, sleep, luck abilities, freeze, paralysis, crits, etc, which can be game changing and very LUCK reliant as a given.

All if not most of the above are perfectly accepted as competitive, when it can actually become even more game changing than tera types. But hey tera types actually require planning, skill and decision making so because some mons are inherently broken or because i cant play around it lets ban it in week 1 without even testing it properly for a few months.
 
dongo22

dongo22

i haven’t read any of the other 26 pages of this thread so this may have been mentioned, but a solution that came to mind would be just picking the pokemon you plan on terastalizing prior to sending out your first and having it be clear to both sides which one you chose but not what the type is.

imo the best part of terastalizing is that you can create unique solutions to the meta, but the worst part is that you have way too much flexibility in using it to either snowball super hard or entirely flip-flop scenarios that you’d otherwise be losing in. by locking it to one guy that you both choose, i think you retain the creativity while removing the volatile aspects of terastalizing
 
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