Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[HeartfulKitty]

I've not much to add that others haven't already gone way more in-depth about, but I would like to say that there is limited opportunity cost to suspecting a limited tera meta to see how it actually performs.

Exposure to it should allow people to come to actually informed opinions, because what we currently have are (admittedly fairly solid) estimates of what a limited tera meta would look like. One may disagree about whether it's fundamentally competitive or not, but we can't fully know what practical effects on team building and in-battle strategizing are until it's actually seen. It feels like a small subsection of people are absolutely confident that it will either remain completely uncompetitive or that limited tera will fix all problems with tera now and forever; both of these seem like rather confident claims to make when there's no actual evidence one way or the other yet.

Realistically, limited tera almost certainly means revealing tera type at preview, given that it's the clear favorite of the limited tera proponents in this thread. Banning tera blast is dumb, and the other solutions feel like they don't solve the issue of randomness/unpredictability that tera brings. Revealing tera type at preview may or may not work to solve this problem well enough to keep tera in the tier--we won't know for sure until it's tested.

Once the tera suspect is underway, I would personally like to see it with limited tera instead of the unrestricted tera we have now. Especially if it's extended to three weeks, which would give a much clearer picture than the normal two-week window. That will allow people to come to much more informed decisions, I think.

 

[Divine Retribution]

From a purely mechanical standpoint I would propose "Terastal Nickname Clause", where Pokemon must be nicknamed after their Tera type in order to Terastalyze. However, that probably wouldn't be a popular proposal, given how nicknames are broadly used as a means of creative expression and a clause that forces you to nickname your Pokemon with specific names would kind of kill that, at least in SV OU.

A kind of intermediate solution might be to add a Pokemon's Tera type to its name on Showdown. This would technically be a game mod but not exactly an unprecedented one, given the presence of the cancel button and HP percentages. This could be effectively simulated on a cartridge by the aforementioned nickname clause, but would still allow players freedom to nickname their Pokemon as they please.

Come to think of it, you can have longer nicknames on Showdown than you can in-game anyways, so you could argue there's already a similar game mod in place.

 

[hornets]

Upon reading, I think I’d be in the camp of showing Tera-types in team preview. However, I’m confused how that would fundamentally work.

What I mean is, Showdown is trying its best to replicate in-game battles as much as possible, but obviously there isn’t a method to show Tera-types in team preview in SV (unless you’re physically with someone playing with Smogon rule set). To what point would that be detracting too far from the actual games?

Absolutely not. Smogon as a ruleset can only exist by consenting players agreeing to abide by the standards set. If the standard is you can only put one pokemon to sleep, then the players have a mutual agreement to those terms. If it is that palafin is banned, again the same. There is no in game mechanic preventing you from doing these things, yet players agree to it in order to play the smogon metagame. To me, there is no difference between players agreeing to not sleep more than one pokemon and players agreeing to disclose their tera types.

Beyond that, the current sim we play on has a MULTITUDE of things that are not replicated in the in-game battles.

1) match timer
2) percent HP bars
3) logs
4) cancellable moves
5) a second sleep inducing move resulting in a FAILURE of the move to work
6) the team preview being available at all times along with HP %, moves used, maximum possible PP allowed, max/min speed stats available by hovering etc.

Now much of these things are for convenience but they do make a difference.


and in the past there were things like FREEZE CLAUSE! Which prevented more than one pokemon from being frozen at a time, again a completely impossible thing to replicate on cartridge. There was also the whole period in gen 4 when rotom forms were impossible to use without a cheating device in wifi batles, but they were allowed on shoddy.

The metagame would be better off if the facade of perfectly replicating the game would die down a bit. Lest we forget gen 1 body slam para'ing normals

 

[Taka]

With regards to Tera Preview, there are three main issues I can see arising.

1.You can guess a set off Tera type, which can be seen as uncompetitive, hurts bait sets and promotes less diversity in teambuilding (that Tera fire dnite to beat steel checks will rarely be worth it with preview compared to a Tera normal dnite)

2. Tera Preview, and Tera in general, inherently favors offense over defense. Think about the situation of Roaring Moon vs Great Tusk. Roaring Moon is usually Tera Flying, which beats Great Tusk, but this time you brought a Tera Electric Great Tusk w Ice Spinner to beat Roaring Moon. On preview, both players know what’s going to happen later down the road, and so they end up with this 50/50. Roaring Moon has to Tera to not die to CC, and then has to choose between EQ/Acrobatics, since one of these will eliminate Tusk and secure the sweep. There is no real strategy in this interaction, besides baiting out Tera types earlier in the game. If a defensive mon Teras and is able to take out the Roaring Moon, it’s still just a defensive mon. Yes, you’ve beaten the sweeper, but you’ve used one of your best tools just in case they tera correctly. Ultimately, the only real difference between this interaction and one with no preview was that the player knew it was coming and could guarantee that there would be a 50/50, instead of being forced to guess the Tera type.

3. Tera Preview helps alleviate the issue in game, giving you an easier time to predict, but it doesn’t solve the builder issue. You can’t guarantee that your team will matchup decently into any team structure, since there are so many type combinations possible. While Pokemon is inherently a matchup fishy game, Tera just makes this issue worse, and Tera Preview does help you be somewhat prepared for a team. However, you cannot cover every team +tera structure. Maybe you have prepped for Dragapult, even more so for a Tera Ghost/Fighting/Dragon pult, but you might just find yourself unable to account for rarer sets that are threatening, such as Tera Fairy pult.

Ultimately, I think Tera Preview does more help than it does harm, but it doesn’t change the fact that Tera is a matchup fishy mechanic.

 

[hoplitejoe]

there's like 3 types on uncertainty you're adding with tera:
1. who- you can't know who will tera in the game, which makes it so you often have to sit on your tera if you're playing defensively.
2. what- is a mon gonna tera into it's own type and be able to break through something that otherwise walls it? is it going to entirely change typings so the super effective hit you were gonna get bounces off.
3. when- this is kinda the "mega gyara" effect, even if you guess who will tera and what the type is, it's still forces 50/50s for players when the typing changes radically. even if it's teraing to one of it's own types, if it's a mon that had a duel typing a lot of the things it is weak to are gonna change. The obvious difference is this would now be true potentially for every mon, not just megas.

There's obvious ways to get round 1 and 2, but it seems likely that having to guess when something will tera is going to have to exist.

The question feels at the moment like should there be a reduction of some of these types of uncertainty and see if it's still overbearing, or is the not knowing when something's typing will change just too much trouble, and it's easier just ban it outright.

 

[Porygon2Bandit]

I am in camp of banning the mechanic altogether because I believe every suggested way to restrict this mechanic has its own flaws and the mechanic remains problematic. The problems tera causes is many, and none of the points do a well enough job to mitigate it.


Showing Tera type at Team Preview

This is just additional information you receive at the start so you will get to see the planned defensive applications of it. You will see a Flying Roaring Moon and you will think to not send out Breloom. You still dont know when the mechanic will be used though, the unpredictability factor stays. Moreover, this does very little in terms of terastalizing into existing STAB types. Imagine I have 3 hard hitting Pokemon that all vastly benefit from self STAB terrastalization. (Because come on now, this is just free Adaptability button) When do I click it, who do I click it with? Those questions remain unanswered.

So is 'when do i click it' an option you see as uncompetitive? Unpredictability exists inherently in a game where most of your stats are disguised. We can make reasonable assumptions about sets at preview and spreads, the same way you would be able to make a reasonable assumption on when a pokemon would Tera here. Some level of unpredictability is required for this game. While I'm not going to assert that this is the amount that's proper, is it that hard to make a determination about when a tera could happen if you know what type you'd tera into?

You know when a mon WON'T tera in most cases. If it won't net them an advantage and you see the tera type, you can more of less guarantee when it WOULD be beneficial for that tera to take place. There are probably mons that have both stabs affected by the tera option in specific situations (Annihilape Tera Steel vs like Iron Valiant?) but in general it should not be much of a guessing game generically.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I'll start by saying I love this new mechanic. I am having fun with it and think it's the best one since mega evolution. If possible, I would like it to stay.

The more I think about it, the more I think it's uncompetitive. Tera allows much wider options in terms of what is run and has the potential to let teams invalidate certain counters that were supposed to invalidate them. The closest thing I can compare this to is Gen8 UU Aegislash. By the time it was banned, it had like 7 viable sets it could run that all countered mons that were supposed to counter its other sets. I quite imagine that this sort of situation could lead to it being unhealthy for the meta game.

I do want to see it stay though, so I think a mix of showing tera at team preview and limiting *possible* tera options in battle at teambuilding (to 3 mons maybe) could be a solution. It would allow plans to start formulating for the end game and removes a large sense of "oh my gosh I didn't see that coming now I wasted a turn and am kinda screwed." I think it is possible there will be a lot of common/meta options for what terastilizes and into what type, much like z-moves did. Pikalytics has already made it available what pokemon terastilized the most and into what type, so counter play against them can already start.

Just a quick sign off, I am having fun and want this mechanic to stay. I get that balance is important, but this is the most fun I'm having since gen 6, and I want to keep that feeling. Nonetheless, competitiveness is extremely important to the community and for good reason. I hope the right decision is made in this regard.

 

[sh0shin]

I haven't played too much since gen 7 or so. But I came back around the start of S/V and I've been really enjoying terastalization. I haven't found it overwhelming to play against. The fact that it is a 1/match thing helps keep it in check a lot. It's a mix-up/trump card you use to sway the match in your favor at a key moment or to reinforce a lead. It's not something you can just blow on every mon. You need to carefully evaluate when to use your tera for maximum effect, and this works both ways. I've found I can oftentimes predict when a mon will tera based on how they have positioned themselves and the current state of the match.

I feel people are confusing competitive with meta altering. Yes, terastalizing alters how the meta plays out and encourages you to try to stop threats with raw bulk as opposed to resists. That alters the meta and usual teambuilding strategies, but that doesn't make something uncompetitive. Z-moves and mega evolutions were quite strong, definitely altered the meta, and at times could be quite unpredictable (especially with z-moves). Yet they remained competitive. I don't think terrastalization has been different from my experience and I don't think it deserves to be banned.

Also personally if we want to alter tera, I feel like same type tera is more problematic than different type tera. I see people complaining about the bonus stab all the time and I feel like if restricting it to STAB tera is on the board then the opposite should be on the board too. I think changing types is more interesting than just reinforcing your existing type, so I feel restricting STAB tera as opposed to different type tera would do more to preserve the spirit of the mechanic

this, 100%. tera has serious drawbacks often, too, such as losing defensive capabilities, immunities, and things like black sludge not working as intended (tera poison as a poison type with black sludge also seems very rare, maybe this item is just plain ol' nerfed now).

 

[Finchinator]

I do not have an official stance on what option I support, but I want to discuss an aspect of Terastallization: the ability to change types beyond your STAB types.

In my opinion, this aspect of Terastallization is the most uncompetitive. This is not to say that other aspects are not troublesome at all, but this is a dynamic that I have a hard time seeing as a facet of a competitive metagame.

We have seen a number of Pokemon abuse non-STAB Tera to buffer both their offensive and defensive profiles. Giving set-up sweepers a free turn is a prime example of this concept. Let's go through a few instances of this coming into play:

• is able to use Tera Normal, Steel, and Fire very effectively.
  • With Tera Normal, it loses a few key weaknesses that can allow for a "free" (or less costly) set-up turn while also bolstering Extreme Speed to Arceus EKiller levels.
  • With Tera Steel, it entirely flips its defensive profile. Ice goes from 4x to 1/2x, Dragon goes from 2x to 1/2x, Fairy goes from 2x to 1/2x, and a slew of resistances are added. This gives you a "free" (or less costly) turn off-the-bat in most games, but also may force the opponent to re-commit to a new Pokemon, granting you a second "free" turn beyond that.
  • With Tera Fire, it flips the Ice and Fairy dynamic like Steel, but only neutralizes Dragon. However, you also gain a bolstered Fire Punch to clock some would-be checks. It is also very hard to predict around this since it is less telegraphed off of team preview.
• is able to use Tera Flying very effectively.
  • With Tera Flying, you are able to neutralize Fairy types from previously being 4x, but also resist Fighting types that used to be 2x. Common moves like Earthquake also do not impact you. Offensively you consume Booster Energy and then get STAB on an already boosted Acrobatics, too, which hits aforementioned Fairy and Fighting types hard.
• is able to use Tera Grass very effectively.
  • With Tera Grass, Volcarona is able to resist Water instead of it being 2x, which was one of the most common attacking types before the Iron Bundle and Palafin bans at least. This also bolsters Giga Drain's damage against those Pokemon and Rock types. You also lose your Rock type 4x weakness along the way.
• is able to use Tera Fairy and Fighting very effectively.
  • With Tera Fairy, Espathra is able to suddenly resist Sucker Punch against Dark types while also clocking them, Dragons, and others with boosted Dazzling Gleam.
  • With Tera Fighting, it does the same thing, but with Tera Blast that also hits Steel types besides Gholdengo.
• is able to use Tera Water very effectively.
  • With Tera Water, it is able to neutralize a lot of attacks, which means you can boost Rage Fist very quickly.

This same concept can apply to other set-up sweepers, too, and hard-hitters simply looking for openings. This is an unnatural dynamic that promotes guesswork and individual sequences largely dictating games rather than game-planning throughout. The main forms of counterplay have been increased Unaware Pokemon sightings and simply throwing out as many revenge killing options as possible onto offense.

I am not locked-into any specific outcome at all as I have an open mind now, but I think options that remove the ability to change to entirely novel types for Pokemon should definitely be at the center of discussion for bans and restrictions.

 

[dex]

tera has serious drawbacks often, too, such as losing defensive capabilities, immunities, and things like black sludge not working as intended

Then you aren’t using Tera correctly.

Terastilizing is insane because, as has been said before, it invalidates “good” teambuilding by introducing an immense and overbearing range of “tech” options. General teambuilding convention in each and every past Gen has been “build with checks and counters in mind”. X checks Y checks Z checks Landorus-T. Terastilizing laughs in the face of that convention by saying, essentially, that anything can beat anything if you happen to have the right tera type. This is especially problematic in a metagame as offensive and fast-paced as current OU, which is not only due to Tera’s effect on the pace of games but also due to the nerfs to the distribution of Toxic and Scald and the recovery nerf. One turn wrong and you simply are lost.

I think the best solution is nixing the mechanic altogether. It’s simply too unpredictable and causes too much of an impossible burden on teambuilding. If keeping the mechanic is a must, then displaying Tera types pre-game and banning Tera Blast are the least offensive options to me that at least cut down on the mechanic’s volatility.

 

[Spyro]

So will there be a vote on this? Or how we will reach a decision here? I support trying to keep tera around because it seems every generation will have a gimmick like this. It all started with megas and we should try to play as close to the games as possible like someone else said. That's just my opinion though. I'm also surprised a same type tera ban wasn't one of the options because same type tera is insane by itself and it's a boring way to play with tera since you only just make your Band and Specs mon stronger and harder to wall. But out of these options I would go with revealing your teras before the battle starts.

 

[Porygon2Bandit]

I do not have an official stance on what option I support, but I want to discuss an aspect of Terastallization: the ability to change types beyond your STAB types.

In my opinion, this aspect of Terastallization is the most uncompetitive. This is not to say that other aspects are not troublesome at all, but this is a dynamic that I have a hard time seeing as a facet of a competitive metagame.

We have seen a number of Pokemon abuse non-STAB Tera to buffer both their offensive and defensive profiles. Giving set-up sweepers a free turn is a prime example of this concept. Let's go through a few instances of this coming into play:

• is able to use Tera Normal, Steel, and Fire very effectively.
  • With Tera Normal, it loses a few key weaknesses that can allow for a "free" (or less costly) set-up turn while also bolstering Extreme Speed to Arceus EKiller levels.
  • With Tera Steel, it entirely flips its defensive profile. Ice goes from 4x to 1/2x, Dragon goes from 2x to 1/2x, Fairy goes from 2x to 1/2x, and a slew of resistances are added. This gives you a "free" (or less costly) turn off-the-bat in most games, but also may force the opponent to re-commit to a new Pokemon, granting you a second "free" turn beyond that.
  • With Tera Fire, it flips the Ice and Fairy dynamic like Steel, but only neutralizes Dragon. However, you also gain a bolstered Fire Punch to clock some would-be checks. It is also very hard to predict around this since it is less telegraphed off of team preview.
• is able to use Tera Flying very effectively.
  • With Tera Flying, you are able to neutralize Fairy types from previously being 4x, but also resist Fighting types that used to be 2x. Common moves like Earthquake also do not impact you. Offensively you consume Booster Energy and then get STAB on an already boosted Acrobatics, too, which hits aforementioned Fairy and Fighting types hard.
• is able to use Tera Grass very effectively.
  • With Tera Grass, Volcarona is able to resist Water instead of it being 2x, which was one of the most common attacking types before the Iron Bundle and Palafin bans at least. This also bolsters Giga Drain's damage against those Pokemon and Rock types. You also lose your Rock type 4x weakness along the way.
• is able to use Tera Fairy and Fighting very effectively.
  • With Tera Fairy, Espathra is able to suddenly resist Sucker Punch against Dark types while also clocking them, Dragons, and others with boosted Dazzling Gleam.
  • With Tera Fighting, it does the same thing, but with Tera Blast that also hits Steel types besides Gholdengo.
• is able to use Tera Water very effectively.
  • With Tera Water, it is able to neutralize a lot of attacks, which means you can boost Rage Fist very quickly.

This same concept can apply to other set-up sweepers, too, and hard-hitters simply looking for openings. This is an unnatural dynamic that promotes guesswork and individual sequences largely dictating games rather than game-planning throughout. The main forms of counterplay have been increased Unaware Pokemon sightings and simply throwing out as many revenge killing options as possible onto offense.

I am not locked-into any specific outcome at all as I have an open mind now, but I think options that remove the ability to change to entirely novel types for Pokemon should definitely be at the center of discussion for bans and restrictions.

I would absolutely want a ban before this, as someone who likes Tera. The idea that you give it to be an offensive adaptability mechanic and gut any defensive utility to me is an implementation that funamentally changes viability of archetypes for a complex ban. Now, defensive mons just have to accept that there's an inherent bomb capable of cracking walls and you can't utilize the same mechanic to try and equalize that reality.

 

[zakurenai]

Personally I think Terastal is fine, but to avoid it being banned entirely I strongly suggest Smogon implement Laurel's number 1 option, as shown here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-discussion.3711464/post-9412264

1) Limiting the amount of pokemon who can tera to 1 and showing the type

This way the mechanic can stick around, the players who never had a problem with it can continue to make creative/fun sets like Tera: Normal Dragonite (STAB Extreme Speed), and the players who lost 9000 hours of sleep complaining about Terastal on Smogon will be able to prepare for the ONE Terastal user at Team Preview. Everyone wins.

 

[Negative Charge]

I think one tera + announced on team preview lets us build around one mon like a mega and gives the opponent adequate knowledge of what they need to think about during a match and preserves a core mechanic. I realize this is a heavy nerf but I realize it’s unlikely we would try two nerfs at the same time.

 

[sh0shin]

Then you aren’t using Tera correctly.

Terastilizing is insane because, as has been said before, it invalidates “good” teambuilding by introducing an immense and overbearing range of “tech” options. General teambuilding convention in each and every past Gen has been “build with checks and counters in mind”. X checks Y checks Z checks Landorus-T. Terastilizing laughs in the face of that convention by saying, essentially, that anything can beat anything if you happen to have the right tera type. This is especially problematic in a metagame as offensive and fast-paced as current OU, which is not only due to Tera’s effect on the pace of games but also due to the nerfs to the distribution of Toxic and Scald and the recovery nerf. One turn wrong and you simply are lost.

I think the best solution is nixing the mechanic altogether. It’s simply too unpredictable and causes too much of an impossible burden on teambuilding. If keeping the mechanic is a must, then displaying Tera types pre-game and banning Tera Blast are the least offensive options to me that at least cut down on the mechanic’s volatility.

this sounds like the complaints people have had about z moves tbh

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Speaking from a purely personal non-competitive perspective, it's fun and I'd love it if it stays. It's unique enough and adds just a right layer of dynamics that makes the meta slightly flavorful in a way gen 8 lacked. Amateur players aren't probably going to be using this mechanic efficiently but knowing it exists is a valid form of fun given it's the generational gimmick, and better players can also learn to find appreciation in using it to add creativity to the meta.

Now to make actual arguments from a competitive player perspective:

I'm in favor of compromising. Having played with it in OU (and other metas for what it's worth considering to some degree), it's a swingy mechanic. It does a lot of players dirty by removing checks, momentum etc. Tera Blast adds an extra STAB option, which overpowers a lot of mons in a gen that's seen ridiculous powercreep.


Despite this, I really don't see the mechanic as fully banworthy. Not every mon is going to benefit from it in a team setup, and it's almost primarily going to go on a strong offensive option either to boost STAB, add a new STAB or simply adjust defensively while cleaning. I find the argument that having 18 options available at a click very silly because you're never going to pick beyond a few. Good abusers of the mechanic definitely have more options, but that still limits the pool of options at any given moment. It would not surprise me if there's a correlation between good abusers and future banned Pokemon, which potentially means they get the boot from OU even without tera. I do think tera is still manageable on lesser threats, which potentially implies an OU tier that can handle the mechanic because it's limited to options that make good use of it but not broken uncompetitive use.


Tera Blast is an interesting place for me. I don't really see it being used as much as I thought. Take Tera-Flying Roaring Moon for instance, which runs Acrobatics over Tera Blast, or its steel equivalent that relies on Iron Head being boosted while getting the jump on Fairy types threatening it. Tera Blast is a risky option to run if you can avoid it because you don't get the STAB if you aren't 100% sure you will tera that particular mon. I think good teams right now are utilizing multiple tera options, which favors Tera Blast as a move option less. This also ties into the opportunity cost argument I see flying a lot right now: your opportunity cost is potentially screwing your gameplan if you tera early/incorrectly. In my experience going tera first often takes away a potential wincon if your opponent has prepared to adjust for multiple options. In that case it's actually swinging in favor of the player who holds their tera card longer to preserve a future sweeper/cleaner. I think it actually ends up being less matchup fishy in practice because you want to prioritize building your team with multiple options in mind rather than one or two, which in turn keeps you potentially able to deal with opposing tera play.


tl;dr I don't think the volatility aspect of it is fully untrue, but at this present moment a bit exaggerated. While yes on paper it fundamentally seems too much, in practice it feels fairly tangible and predictable in a lot of aspects that a compromise might solve things until a bit more time is taken (I'd really like to see high level tour play for one, and see how tera is used there) before a final opinion is taken.

 

[TBIC106]

Gonna throw my two cents in too, terrastalising a mon has never felt unfair or gamebreaking. I just got out-prepped in team building. If someone had terra steel palafin, and my team's only counter was amoongus, guess I should've had a better counter. Though in terms of actual power and whether or not it's centralising, I've never found myself going "Well what do I do about this mon terrastalising into something else and beating its counter?" Because there's always a cost to it too.

In the case of terrastalising into a type you already have, this has the least drawbacks inherent to it but is highly predictable. Terrastalising into another type completely is much less predictable, and can generate free turns because you can't account for absolutely every type available, but may also give you a weakness to a mon that now beats you when it previously couldn't. Unlike with shedinja in NatDex, there is no way to terrastalise and cover all your weaknesses without generating more or at least a similar number in return. And, with time, I feel that terrastalising into different types will become predictable with experience. Even now, there are a couple options that are definitively better than others outside of specific circumstance. I want my mon with a good offensive typing to be able to cover that up? I almost invariably go to either terra water or terra steel unless there is a specific mon I'm trying to beat. I want my dodonzo to pack enough of a punch that it can't just be set up on? Terra water turns it from a passive unaware wall that can be denied curses with taunt to "ohdeargoDWHYDIDTHATDO50?" But, almost invariably of the team around it, that mon will have one of a specific set of terra types. Sure it may be a pain to learn for the whole meta, saying dragonite could also terrastalise normal for espeed stab on top of the standard presets that already exist in terra dragon, flying, water and steel, but it's not an impossible to predict mechanic and it'll only ever beat specific counters, not all of them.

I don't save all my replays, so I can't exactly back all this up, nor am I a good enough player to have been able to participate in the suspects that happened last gen. Hopefully I'm not just talking out of my butt with all this, and placing too much weight on low ladder games where no-one, including myself, really know what they're doing. But I've never thrown down my game and said "Terrastalisation is broken," even when I did lose a game because someone terrastalised into a type I no longer had the tools to deal with. It just felt the same as if I'd sacked my ttar last gen then lost to dragapult. I may have had less opportunity to decide that I needed to keep that mon, but I still took the risk when I sacked it that I wouldn't need it any more. And if your opponent's team is designed to remove certain mons, then blast through the counter to a specific sweeper with a terra type, then that's just good team building.

 

[sh0shin]

Speaking from a purely personal non-competitive perspective, it's fun and I'd love it if it stays. It's unique enough and adds just a right layer of dynamics that makes the meta slightly flavorful in a way gen 8 lacked. Amateur players aren't probably going to be using this mechanic efficiently but knowing it exists is a valid form of fun given it's the generational gimmick, and better players can also learn to find appreciation in using it to add creativity to the meta.
[...]
tl;dr I don't think the volatility aspect of it is fully untrue, but at this present moment a bit exaggerated. While yes on paper it fundamentally seems too much, in practice it feels fairly tangible and predictable in a lot of aspects that a compromise might solve things until a bit more time is taken (I'd really like to see high level tour play for one, and see how tera is used there) before a final opinion is taken.

i appreciate this, too. i am admittedly a pretty dumb hyper-offense player, so i enjoy the volatility and benefit directly from the offensive pressure of Tera. i see where people are coming from w.r.t. the insane unpredictable sweeps, and the diminishing emphasis on balanced, patient play. that being said, i think there are plenty of players showing how good a defensive backbone is yet in gen 9 (admittedly, both that come to mind are youtubers playing on alts).

 

[zakurenai]

Okay, this is pretty laughable.
View attachment 468610
Guy who came up with and strongly pushed for Tera Team Preview and set it in a lot of peoples’ minds now goes “actually it’s still broken”.

Blunder's solution is the one I just posted here. I agree with it.
It appears to be the best way to keep Terastal while shutting up the people who pretend Pokemon is Chess and want all information available at the start of battle
1 Tera mon per team + it is visible at Team Preview

 

[Zargis]

Banning Tera in OU and creating a separate ladder w/ tera allowed would be the best IMO. If not possible, I'd rather have Tera completely banned, the sooner the better.

 

[rosesscythes]

Blunder's solution is the one I just posted here. I agree with it.
It appears to be the best way to keep Terastal while shutting up the people who pretend Pokemon is Chess and want all information available at the start of battle
1 Tera mon per team + it is visible at Team Preview

I’m not arguing the idea, I just think it’s a funny heelturn for him. Especially when he’s calling it foolish like he didn’t come up with it.

 

[RoiDadadou]

I'd personally go around the propositions in this order:

1. Showing Tera type at Team Preview:
This is, I'd say, the best way to ever implement a nerf on Tera. It wouldn't be a complex ban, but simply a Clause, which makes the process easier, and it's way more efficient at dealing with the Tera problem than the other methods, bare maybe the next one. For me, the idea of Tera-types being visible in Team Preview seems like the best thing to implement. We already have rules which imply that player would reset a match if double sleep was attained (Sleep Clause), and specific banlists which imply they agreed on a ruleset before the match (Ubers, BLs, etc). So clearly, implying that each individual would share the Tera-types of their Pokémon before a battle (during the team preview) doesn't seem that big of a stretch, just a gentleman rule like all the other Smogon clauses.

2. Banning Tera Blast:
It mainly limits the bullshit, but may not fix the real problem. Although I do think that Blast should always be suspected/banned before any action is taken on Tera itself. Deleting Blast could seem like the right call, as it only makes Tera sweeper with actually good coverage threatening, making it an ‘easy’ “we ban this Mon because he’s to good”, but the versatility and unpredictability aspects are still there for way too many Mon.

3. Limiting the amount of Pokémon on any given team that have access to possibly Terastallize during a battle:
Seems like the “least bad” idea of the remaining three. Way too hard to implement, and a complex ban is always a pain in the ass to justify and assert into a ruleset. If it’s done well, maybe it could be a great idea, but I doubt it. It sound a bit to confuse and gimmicky to be a solid solution.

4. Limiting Tera typing to previously existing STAB types:
This may actually be worse than banning it completely. People will keep complaining about dual typed changing their type and clearing games, and it removes a lot of depth to this mechanic, basically transforming it into a ‘Super Z-Move/Gem For The Rest Of The Game” thing in a lot of battle scenarios. This is definitely the worst solution in my opinion, and I’d almost prefer the mechanic to be banned than to see it fall like this.

5. Outright ban:
This is a last resort, a button which, in my opinion, shouldn't be pushed unless we're certain it's the only option we have left. I'd say the mechanic should not be banned, as it's not nowhere near Dynamax. This doesn't justify not banning Tera, but it's certainly important to consider that we do have other alternatives, which should imo be prioritized.

Those are of course just my thoughts, I can see arguments being made for each of those options, and there's no right or wrong in there.

EDIT : I just saw the 'limiting to one, and showing it at preview'. Best of both worlds.

 

[Spyro]

Yes I support the only 1 Pokemon per team plus revealed at team preview. That removes the unpredictable nature of it and you are able to prepare accordingly. I was confused by the option at first my bad.

 

[Xurkitree10]

One option I haven't heard about is 'Only mons WITH Tera Blast can Terastralize' alongside a Tera preview mod. This places a rather hefty cost on Terastralizing, since you're essentially keeping a dead moveslot around until you activate Tera. Only mons who can both Tera effectively and use Tera Blast to its potential are gonna rise up as prominent Tera abusers, naturally limiting the amount of mons running Tera on a team, and you can instantly start counterplay in a match with the Tera preview mod, since knowing their Tera type and knowing they're running Tera Blast will allow an well-prepared opponent to scout sets before the match starts. I think this is a more interesting ban because it plays into Tera Blast's gimmick. Would appreciate more discussion on this one.

 

[blunder]

Okay, this is pretty laughable.
View attachment 468610
Guy who came up with and strongly pushed for Tera Team Preview and set it in a lot of peoples’ minds now goes “actually it’s still broken”.

Is called changing your mind, we can all have our opinions and i care for competitive metagame. and no i didnt create these things a lot of people play pokemon. whats your suggestion? In the end I can gurantee I will continue pushing for a competitive metagame and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't.