Man I was gonna leave this alone but it's too stupid to ignore. He explicitly said the team is built around using psychic terrain to prevent priority stopping sweeps. Whether you think that's a good idea or not, why the fuck would he run priority on his sweeper that's intending to be sweeping in psychic terrain.
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Even if a given mon had tera considered as a part of it's ban that doesn't mean it was a major aspect of the ban nor that it provided a huge amount of reason to ban it, it just means it provided power to the mon. If we want to talk about tera turning mons into monsters we can't just point to every mon that's been banned where tera was involved - nor any mon that is on the radar where tera is a part of it - and just assume that tera is the deciding factor (it sometimes is of course, I just mean we can't blanket).
Also different point, but I really don't like the term 50/50 shot. Like, yes the mon either teras or it doesn't, but the phrase 50/50 makes it seem like there is no way to use skill and knowledge of the situation to determine if a person will tera. If you have a +6 Atk +6 Spd Anhialape and someone brings in Skeledirge , you can feel reasonably confident it's gonna tera into normal, or at least out of ghost. Of course this is an extreme example but still.
We can argue all day about *how* much of an impact smarts has, but I believe saying 50/50 is disingenuous.
No one is saying that there is completely no way to tell when a Pokemon will tera, or that it's exactly 50% every time. Arguing pedantic definition instead of the meat of the argument, that tera creates many situations where you could very reasonably expect either outcome, and those require wildly different play, is disingenuous.
Oh yeah there is 100% a number of very valid arguments towards removing tera, I just do think that moving away from the phrase 50/50 shot would be more beneficial to the discussion.
Because it would have caused him to win in this specific situation, and psychic terrain doesn't last forever. And - this is important - if the opponent uses a non +2 priority move, and you use Sucker Punch/Ice Shard, you still go first. So it's actually a safety net in case the opponent has a priority move and psychic terrain is gone.
He has a bad team. You don't have to defend using a bad team to the death. And more to the point - someone losing because their team is bad is not a reason for a mechanic to be banned.
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I don't care how bad you think the team is. Regardless of how bad the team is, if your intent is to sweep under psychic terrain, suggesting to run priority to account for an edge case on that Pokemon is incredibly stupid. Move slots aren't free and especially on something like chien pao. Once again though I'm gonna stop engaging with you. Just wanted to point out your suggestion was incredibly stupid and made no sense in the context of the team. People are allowed to experiment with bad teams.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
So you’re fully aware that Tera restricts teambuilding and creativity to a significant degree but you don’t want to do anything about it because the dex is too small? I’m a little confused at what you’re getting at here. The dex was small at the beginning of last gen too and Dynamax was still broken.
Most teams looking “pretty much the same” isn’t exactly the sign of a healthy tier, it’s the sign of one that’s either overcentralized around a handful of broken things or stagnated to the point where people can’t be bothered to try new things anymore. (Basically, either the very beginning or the very ending of a gen.)
Being effectively forced to run one Pokémon on every team is unreasonable, we agree on that (and hopefully so does everyone). I also believe that being effectively forced to run at least one of three Pokémon on every team of a certain archetype isn’t healthy. The number of Pokémon holding together the tattered skeleton of what used to be stall and bulky balance can be counted on one hand.
This point is valid. Don’t be tempted by Jolly, that’s the Devil trying to turn you from the true path.
The metagame will be given plenty of time to develop. Whatever happens to Tera, it’s an inevitability that there will eventually be a ladder with Tera and a ladder without—the playerbase is so split on Tera that not creating another ladder would cause problems (much like Dexit and the creation of the Natdex format). The only real question is which meta we slap the Official Smogon Seal of Approval™ on.
Im pro Team Preview.
I dont think an out right ban is necessary here, tera doesn't do anything that either z moves or mega didn't already do, we even had a meta with both that was imo one of the best we've had.
Yes, every mon can tera but honestly even now you can reasonably pick out on TP which mons are probably the priority to tera and which are just "available" and this was the same with z moves albeit single use. The level of complexity it adds to game play is both fun and allows for new layers of team building similar to those from the mega and z move metas. In this same vein while every mon could pick any type, ultimately they have 3? Maybe 4/5 in the high end of viable types to pick from and those will be part of the common sets again just lole megas and zmoves were.
I dont think banning tera blast really solves anything. It feels pretty net neutral, theres like 5 mons that consistently run it and everything else would rather run a real move 9/10 either for coverage or support. Its pretty much just bad hidden power. Yeah its 80bp but you have to tera to take advantage of it which cuts you down to 3 move slots essentially if you dont.
An out right ban seems pretty meh, i wont pretend there aren't valid arguments for it but i think overall it comes from either a place of feel bads from gimmicks or bad team building. There are times youll get rekt by some weird set you never expected or some cheese gimmick that wouldn't work without tera but those happen anyway just with sets/items/mons we aren't used to, in the same way you could run multiple mega possibilities or z move mons but only use 1/once. HOWEVER, i will say that this is a huge potential issue for tournament settings where teams are set and that will need to be adressed in a individual basis.
I think the best solution to this problem is to do a split meta, OU-Tera and OU-Non-Tera. There are too many people in both camps and i dont think anyone should lose out on an enjoyable meta especially when its over such a significant aspect of playing in this gen. Personally i feel that tera with TP will be a healthy and enjoyable meta but i also Personally enjoy tera. Those that dont or dont should have a place to play as well.
I dont think an out right ban is necessary here, tera doesn't do anything that either z moves or mega didn't already do, we even had a meta with both that was imo one of the best we've had.
Yes, every mon can tera but honestly even now you can reasonably pick out on TP which mons are probably the priority to tera and which are just "available" and this was the same with z moves albeit single use. The level of complexity it adds to game play is both fun and allows for new layers of team building similar to those from the mega and z move metas. In this same vein while every mon could pick any type, ultimately they have 3? Maybe 4/5 in the high end of viable types to pick from and those will be part of the common sets again just lole megas and zmoves were.
I dont think banning tera blast really solves anything. It feels pretty net neutral, theres like 5 mons that consistently run it and everything else would rather run a real move 9/10 either for coverage or support. Its pretty much just bad hidden power. Yeah its 80bp but you have to tera to take advantage of it which cuts you down to 3 move slots essentially if you dont.
An out right ban seems pretty meh, i wont pretend there aren't valid arguments for it but i think overall it comes from either a place of feel bads from gimmicks or bad team building. There are times youll get rekt by some weird set you never expected or some cheese gimmick that wouldn't work without tera but those happen anyway just with sets/items/mons we aren't used to, in the same way you could run multiple mega possibilities or z move mons but only use 1/once. HOWEVER, i will say that this is a huge potential issue for tournament settings where teams are set and that will need to be adressed in a individual basis.
I think the best solution to this problem is to do a split meta, OU-Tera and OU-Non-Tera. There are too many people in both camps and i dont think anyone should lose out on an enjoyable meta especially when its over such a significant aspect of playing in this gen. Personally i feel that tera with TP will be a healthy and enjoyable meta but i also Personally enjoy tera. Those that dont or dont should have a place to play as well.
I would argue Dragonite's issue is more about Shed Tail (Even more with Screen Support), than it is about Tera normal, as mons like Tusks, Annihilape and other fighting types can easily check or counter Tera normal dragonite unless he has set up a lot of DD, in which case im here to address the issue again, its not nite, its the crazy support he gets that synergizes so good with his dragon flying typing and his multiscale ability.
If Dragonite is considered problematic, which it might or might not be. Imo its more about Screens + Shed Tail into Nite with Multiscale, which is a very strong and nasty combo that can become a bit hard to stop if not prepared properly or used to it.
Then again, its not about Tera normal, Dragonite is in fact better with dragon type as it gives him a lot of resistances, the tera normal just gives some extra damage but also gives big downsides, such as getting 1-2 shot by mach punch, body press or almost anything fighting.
Also, somehow people are complaining more about specific mons than about Tera itself as i havent seen any actual objective reason for why it should be banned, even some proban seem to have changed their minds...
Ah yes because Chien-Pao despite having perfect coverage between Ice/Dark/Fighting is better served by running....um.....
Aerial Ace? Tera poison?
Like, what 4th move was better than priority?
And the funny thing is the suggestion is 'stupid' when it would have won him the game, and 99% of Chien-Pao run some form of priority. That's like running a technician Breloom without mach punch, then saying 'well, I wanted to try something different!' and blaming anyone other than yourself when it fails to win the game for you.
I don't know, Swords Dance? Taunt? Recover?
Not to randomly jump into a conversation or anything but Chien-Pao's movepool is surprisingly varied on the status end, we just never see a lot of it.
If a Chien-Pao recovered in front of me I think I would actually cry IRL, it's a damn shame it can't fit it well.
I don't think tera restricts teambuilding right now, actually. With regards to the single biggest threat that does not belong in this tier whatsoever (Chi-Yu), it lets you improvise some really bizarre counters to it.
Chi-Yu is really only disgusting and capable of destroying something every single time it hits the field if it's choiced, and especially vs Stall where it's game ending. What people are doing more and more is saving their tera and using that to soak a hit and OHKO it. I've seen fairy Dondozo, ground/dark Clodsire, fairy Blissey, fairy Garganacl, probably a few others that aren't coming to mind. Right now ironically enough tera is stall's only option to dealing with Chi-Yu.
Yeah again 100% it needs to be banned but again, tera isn't restricting teambuilding there. The only other theoretical counter I can think of with tera gone is Thunder Wave Chansey/Blissey. Now at least Stall has 4+ options.
Looking to a more non-tera dependent example and using a setup sweeper, I ran a more offensive team that had issues fighting DD Dragapult. I could have just slapped Dondozo on my team and called it a day, but what I did instead was take one of my dragon types and have it go tera Fairy. Now it perfectly absorbs Dragon Darts while living whatever other option it would have thrown, and I respond with a Draco Meteor.
Now granted that is prediction dependent and he could see that coming and go Fairy himself, but at least then it's fairy and tera is off the table, and now something like a Scizor Bullet Punch OHKOs it. Tera allows me to run a bit scant in a few areas and rely on type switching to compensate. I'd argue that rewards proper prediction and teambuilding, and while it does make a few offensive threats stronger, it gives you defensive answers to that same offensive threat.
It's almost like a samurai movie where the first to Tera loses.
I think even with tera gone we have this exact same problem. Landorus was a blanket physical wall alongside being a defogger and a stealth rock setter (not that he was a stall staple but he certainly was for balance/BO). Now every team that wants a physical wall looks elsewhere to Dondozo or physically defensive Skeledirge, and then you still want some Stealth Rocks and that's Garganacl/Blissey/Clodsire, and then there are all of like two pokemon that learn defog so you're throwing on Corviknight or maybe going more offensive with Cyclizar, one of the Donphans, or maybe Maushold.
That's just for Landorus. There are plenty of others that everyone wishes they had right now that we're simply without - including a bulky Fairy type that's actually fairy and doesn't need to tera to pretend it is.
When inevitably we get a suspect ladder without tera, if it is still pre-home, I think you'll see things are basically the same. Our options are so limited not only in Pokemon but in what their movepools have become that it's like gen 2/3 again where every team within a given archetype is largely the same.
don't really remember the z move that changed your type. tera is way more unpredictable than z moves or especially megas. Please do not say z-conversion. You didn't see pinsir or lopunny on team preview and ask "hmm is the PU pokemon gonna mega evolve.... who can say really..........".
and this is a good thing.... how? swinging match ups in unpredictable ways just turns the game into a crapshoot. call me crazy but I don't think it's cool when your counter to something just dies because of some random shit like that.
Also I don't like the idea of making a different ladder. That would just end up splitting the OU playerbase, which I think would be kinda lame. We didn't split the ladder for dmax, so I'm not sure why we would start doing that now.
Pretty big difference between this and dmax because a lot of people really enjoy Tera while pretty much everyone thought dmax was broken. That's why this situation could warrant a separate ladder while dmax didn't.
SUSPECT ladder. I think literally everyone in this thread wants one, otherwise we wouldn't be here.
I would argue again it doesn't swing it in unpredictable ways any more than prior mechanics already have, making it manageable, and allows you for greater build variety as well as honestly just being fun to use. But I repeat myself.
Yeah I really don't see why people think it's way too unpredictable of a mechanic. Here is one example:
My team is pretty weak to Garganacl, I kind of have to blast it with my Choice Specs Chi-Yu if it has set up even just one Iron Defense. However, it is very common for Garganacl to be Tera Fairy. At the elo I'm at (~1600-1650) my opponents recognize my Garg weakness and think if they can bait the Chi-Yu Dark Pulse with Tera Fairy they can pretty much end the game then and there. However, I know that they know that as well, so multiple times in a row now instead of clicking Dark Pulse I've used a fire move and lo and behold they have Tera Fairy'd and I've OHKO'd them.
There are hints through how people play and how people's teams are constructed as to how they will Tera and what Tera types they are, playing more helps you recognize this and you can quickly start to get a feel for when your opponents may Tera. I really don't think it seems all that different from being able to read and predict an opponents set in general.
My team is pretty weak to Garganacl, I kind of have to blast it with my Choice Specs Chi-Yu if it has set up even just one Iron Defense. However, it is very common for Garganacl to be Tera Fairy. At the elo I'm at (~1600-1650) my opponents recognize my Garg weakness and think if they can bait the Chi-Yu Dark Pulse with Tera Fairy they can pretty much end the game then and there. However, I know that they know that as well, so multiple times in a row now instead of clicking Dark Pulse I've used a fire move and lo and behold they have Tera Fairy'd and I've OHKO'd them.
There are hints through how people play and how people's teams are constructed as to how they will Tera and what Tera types they are, playing more helps you recognize this and you can quickly start to get a feel for when your opponents may Tera. I really don't think it seems all that different from being able to read and predict an opponents set in general.
You are attacking a slow defensive based tera in this example. If the tera pokemon has a few speed+ other boosts before going tera, and you need to predict a super effective hit or you just get swept, and you predict the wrong type, gg. Also we'll just be banning every broken tera sweeper until the next user is discovered, and this is before home. You can keep the mechanic if y'all don't mind constant suspect tests lol
To be fair, if a pokemon gets a few speed + other boosts, it's already a sweep or at least something that punches such a hole into your team that you've lost. Sometimes I sweep with Dragonite without even going tera, and Gen 7 had maybe the dumbest example of that ever in the form of Mega Mawile.
Maybe it enables a few more Pokemon to be capable of sweeping than otherwise would not be able to, like Roaring Moon for example, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Then we ban those Pokemon
also at this point this thread is mostly meaningless until we get actual survey data
these points have been argued like 20 times now, and 10 times in finch had to come in and say "maybe create different solutions" and we've quickly gone back to just bickering
i dont think this thread is doing much except polarization at this point
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BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
This thread has gotten out of hand so I'm going to bring up something that's new and relevant for both sides to focus on since I haven't seen this yet:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scarlet-violet-battle-mechanics-research.3709545/post-9424394
Same type tera (or properly, same type as the move selected) apparently boosts non-priority/multi-hit moves that are low BP to 60 BP. Pretty interesting implications since a lot of people were arguing for same type restriction, but also just overall makes a lot of things about tera probably something to re-examine down the line.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scarlet-violet-battle-mechanics-research.3709545/post-9424394
Same type tera (or properly, same type as the move selected) apparently boosts non-priority/multi-hit moves that are low BP to 60 BP. Pretty interesting implications since a lot of people were arguing for same type restriction, but also just overall makes a lot of things about tera probably something to re-examine down the line.
If I'm honest, I don't really see how this is going to impact competitive. It sounds like something they added to make Terastilization more impactful in the earlygame of singleplayer. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
A lot of weak moves turn into semi-decent options, and the 60 BP is not counting STAB. With same-type tera adding further STAB multipliers you're essentially getting a suddenly bigger move option that may or may not be problematic. Definitely impacts competitive. As per Eve's quote in the first bit:
I don't think Acid Spray is going to be used much even with this as you need to use a moveslot and Terastilization to get the most out of this, as lots of high BP moves likely still do better if you just press it twice.
It needs tera to be active, so imo it has the issue of tera blast where if you dont tera it'll be a moveslot given to a pretty worthless move. Main thing I see happening is nuzzle pawmot strats
Nuzzle is possible mostly because it's already a good move, yeah. Though I have to wonder if Electric Tera is what Pawmot wants to run...
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