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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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For what it’s worth, Acid Spray is actually a pretty solid move in a vacuum as it lets you force switches/act as a PHazing option vs particularly bulky Pokémon, lowers SpD faster than CM can boost it, and it can improve the output of strong moves significantly while saving PP in instances where 3+ turns are necessary (doubling output for two attacks > attacking 3 times, and technically you would also deal more over 2 turns if they stay in bc of AS’s chip).
However, I doubt that bolstering it is a good use of ur tera considering you’re not using it for its BP anyway. Giving up tera to deal slightly more chip damage is not worth it (unless it’s literally the deciding factor between winning and losing, which is super situational anyway) when tera is such an important offensive and defensive resource that you only get to pop once. If smth has no incentive to use Acid Spray (or almost any >60 BP move, lets be real) in the first place, this isn’t going to incentivise it.
For real. If you are letting a mon set up for a few turns and have no Unaware pokemon then you are making some sort of mistake.
Also agree that this thread is getting absolutely no where.
this thread is gonna loop until the survey comes out at this rate lol
i think we've all exhausted our current arguments on any position
BlackKnight_Gawain
PUPL Champion
There's a fair few 'unviable' or traditionally non usable moves I can see getting benefits for suddenly being higher BP. Flame Charge, Rapid Spin, Fell Stinger etc. are great options that if you could somehow make up for their base power you could suddenly make (maybe niche) decent strats out of for setup sweepers for example. And as you've pointed out, moves like Acid Spray suddenly turn into good options that act as pphaze that might work well on stall. I think there's untapped creativity there and it merits a look at it, but I also doubt it'll ultimately factor into any of the reasons the pro-ban side might find as broken.
Is there actually any notable Normal-types that use Rapid Spin? I actually can't think of a Normal-type that learns Rapid Spin strangely.
The legendary komala of course. (And cyclizar)
So that this isn't just a one-liner, yeah I don't think this new revelation is going to mean very much. There are a few notable-ish moves that this applies to like rapid spin, acid spray, draining kiss, flame charge, trailblaze, mud slap, and I'm sure plenty of others that I can't think of off the top of my head. The marginal power boost to these moves is not something worth using up your tera 99% of the time.
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Yeah that seems to be the case. Pretty much "I like/dont like tera cause X" "X is/isn't a problem and is why I don't/do like tera"
Tera Grass Kartana hitting slightly stronger with Trailblaze (if it even gets it) before sweeping, while also shedding its Magnet Pull weakness.
That's about all I've got, but I'd probably still rather do Fighting or Water or something.
Yes.
Edit: “Apparently it applies after Technician, but before STAB. It also doesn't affect priority moves or multi-hit moves, so no luck with Bullet Punch” - KirbyDude25
Welp no fun allowed I guess
Other than that, the survey will tell all(I hope). It’d be a real shame to see Tera go this way. I’d be fine with restrictions but would prefer for it to stay and to go after the broken mons first, and reevaluate Tera afterwards. Home probably won’t change much besides Eleki getting yeeted, and other than that meta has been nicely stabilizing. Excited to see the meta with or without Tera, but hoping it will stay in the nature of competitiveness.
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According to this post, it applies after Technician, but before STAB. It also doesn't affect priority moves or multi-hit moves, so no luck with Bullet Punch
I'm too lazy to write a full defense of tera, but i'll adress an argument that I've seen far too often.
The idea that what makes tera uncompetitive is that it forces 50/50 based on pure guesses is nonsensical. If you want to prove that tera is broken, go ahead and try. I'll disagree.
But in all generations some games can come down to 50/50s. Either down to plays or down to potential sets. Sometimes games can come to s=down to the hidden power type of a certain pokemon, or wether it's adamant or jolly. Those considerations are down to building, where tera offers a lot of freedom. In no way is it uncompetitive, it doesn't rely on luck, it relies on your builder.
The idea that what makes tera uncompetitive is that it forces 50/50 based on pure guesses is nonsensical. If you want to prove that tera is broken, go ahead and try. I'll disagree.
But in all generations some games can come down to 50/50s. Either down to plays or down to potential sets. Sometimes games can come to s=down to the hidden power type of a certain pokemon, or wether it's adamant or jolly. Those considerations are down to building, where tera offers a lot of freedom. In no way is it uncompetitive, it doesn't rely on luck, it relies on your builder.
You certainly aren't the only person to say this, just the most recent. There are a few main points I'd like to mention as to why this is a bad idea and most likely won't happen:
1. This would split the community. This is the biggest reason. OU is the most popular tier on Smogon, so splitting the community, especially around the start of a brand new generation, would not be beneficial. If both ladders are available, people who are on the pro-ban side would be quite unlikely to ever load up the Tera enabled ladder and vice versa.
2. There needs to be a tournament standard. If players are practicing for tournaments via ladder, the ladder that is the tournament standard (whether that be ban or no ban) will be far more active.
Again, I personally think 2 ladders is a good idea in theory but it ultimately does not make sense and coming to a finalized decision is best.
EDIT: just wanted to give my own 2 cents even though it does not mean much. I'm team pro not ban. I'd like to point to the excellently written post by adavita. I highly recommend reading the post no matter which side of the debate you fall on. It could just be confirmation bias, but I have yet to see a post from the pro-ban side that is as good as adavita's post. I've seen some that are well written, namely in the tera discussion in the policy review forum, but they failed to provide replays of how tera is an uncompetitive aspect. I value replays the most when it comes to this. Anybody can say something like "well yeah its uncompetitive because if my opponents X pokemon is Y tera type I just auto lose because it's unpredictable" but how many times has this actually happened to you? If if was a fifth we'd all be drunk. It's important to remember opportunity cost. Using an uncommon tera type in an attempt to matchup fish is just not worth it. Tera is an incredibly strong mechanic and you would be better off using the tried and true sets.
If anyone has seen any particularly strong pro-ban arguments backed with replays that showcase tera is an uncompetitive mechanic, please send them to me. I'm eager to read about how people on the pro-ban side feel and why they feel that way. Again, I personally really enjoy tera and would be sad to see it go. I'm always willing to engage in discussion, especially when it comes to a hobby that I love, I just ask that you please be civil.
have a good day!
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I've seen these takes before, and they don't really hold up in my opinion.You certainly aren't the only person to say this, just the most recent. There are a few main points I'd like to mention as to why this is a bad idea and most likely won't happen:
1. This would split the community. This is the biggest reason. OU is the most popular tier on Smogon, so splitting the community, especially around the start of a brand new generation, would not be beneficial. If both ladders are available, people who are on the pro-ban side would be quite unlikely to ever load up the Tera enabled ladder and vice versa.
2. There needs to be a tournament standard. If players are practicing for tournaments via ladder, the ladder that is the tournament standard (whether that be ban or no ban) will be far more active.
Again, I personally think 2 ladders is a good idea in theory but it ultimately does not make sense and coming to a finalized decision is best.
EDIT: just wanted to give my own 2 cents even though it does not mean much. I'm team pro not ban. I'd like to point to the excellently written post by adavita. I highly recommend reading the post no matter which side of the debate you fall on. It could just be confirmation bias, but I have yet to see a post from the pro-ban side that is as good as adavita's post. I've seen some that are well written, namely in the tera discussion in the policy review forum, but they failed to provide replays of how tera is an uncompetitive aspect. I value replays the most when it comes to this. Anybody can say something like "well yeah its uncompetitive because if my opponents X pokemon is Y tera type I just auto lose because it's unpredictable" but how many times has this actually happened to you? If if was a fifth we'd all be drunk. It's important to remember opportunity cost. Using an uncommon tera type in an attempt to matchup fish is just not worth it. Tera is an incredibly strong mechanic and you would be better off using the tried and true sets.
If anyone has seen any particularly strong pro-ban arguments backed with replays that showcase tera is an uncompetitive mechanic, please send them to me. I'm eager to read about how people on the pro-ban side feel and why they feel that way. Again, I personally really enjoy tera and would be sad to see it go. I'm always willing to engage in discussion, especially when it comes to a hobby that I love, I just ask that you please be civil.
have a good day!
1. Yes. And the community is ALREADY split. I don't think it's any secret, even on the Policy Review thread, that yes; if Terastilization is banned, there will be a loss of some players in Overused. Might as well give an option for them to play on Showdown/Smogon anyways. And vice versa, mind you! As well as this, we've had splits like this in the ladder before, as some others have as well pointed out. We also directly as of right now have National Dex OU, a metagame directly created to give players more options. We also have had BDSP OU, and LGPE OU. Besides LGPE, lots of players went to those other options during Generation 8 directly because they were not enjoying the core Gen 8 metagame.
2. So... we can choose a standard. If Terastilization were to be banned, the non-Tera OU would likely be just, Overused. And if Terastilization were to remain unbanned, it would likely be just, Overused. At least to my knowledge, there is no reason why this couldn't be done. If that's not possible, why not simply implement Terastilization/No-Terastilization as a ladder group in the same way as National Dex or BDSP, rather than as an Official Metagame? Would that not reach the desired effect anyways?
I don't love your first argument. BDSP, LGPE and somewhat National Dex are completely different games from SwSh OU. Playing these metagames adds new things to be utilized, going from a non-tera ou to a tera ou just adds a mechanic that someone is already actively trying to avoid and vice versa.
I'm not completely understanding the second point youre trying to make, would you mind clarifying a bit?
RoyalReloaded is right. Whatever happens with tera, whatever is the 'main' ladder will see the vast majority of play, and the alternative will have barely any players, comparatively. And due to the smaller base and less discussion, the format will die off faster. Split ladder isn't really a solution. People might say they'll play the alt ladder now, but it won't be true in reality if it's implemented.
This is all speculation, and doesn't really make any sense. Split OU metagames have worked in the past, easily. I don't get why this notion has really come up now.
Suspect Ladders are also one of the things I've seen a lot of people distinctly miss since the current OU Council, and I agree. I don't see the issue.
To reply to Royal: In a way, you're right, but in the full truth? I don't think you're correct.
I know from firsthand experience and from seeing many people say the same (not a reliable source mind you, this is subjective reality territory, but I don't think either of us have concrete data) that National Dex OU, and later BDSP OU, were *full* of Gen 8 OU refugees as the metagame was at least perceived as not fun.
And yet, it Gen 8 OU was still by far successful, with National Dex and BDSP not falling off a cliff, either. BDSP did fall off (not a cliff, haha), but that's more arguably due to bad management.
Side tangent, I remember the Discord meltdown when Latios was narrowly not banned, haha. To the council the suspect was mostly a formality, but a lot of the experienced playerbase skipped for the same reason. This ended up destructing the planned route to navigate managing the metagame's flaws.
This is all without saying, too, a lot of people like and play several tiers at once. I don't think it's as cut and dry as your takes seem to make it out to be. A lot of people like options, like going between different metagames. Personally, even when I'm not that invested in current Official Metagames, I still check in from time to time and see what's going on, and maybe play some games if stuff changed.
Lastly, I'd like to say that even if said tier would die out... then let it die, maybe keep it in the teambuilder, shrug it off. I don't think we should be worried about things like these, if it's not an Official metagame, it... doesn't really have much of an impact if it slowly dies out, compared to the possibly good impact if it doesn't. Either way, such a metagame would 100% end in 3 years (if the generation cycle continues, spoiler alert it will,) so I don't think its potential death should be such a negative factor.
SOME games can come down to 50/50s in past gens. Tera makes these scenarios much more common when considering pokemon with multiple viablw tera sets. This is further compounded by having to worry about multiple pokemon on a team being able to suddenly tera. Also the stuff you described, such as adamant or jolly, are things you can scout for without too much risk provided you have a good team. Tera creates a risk of not just deciding to attack to prevent set up (like breloom v moon), but also guessing a tera type and if you get it wrong, potentially giving them set up or massive momentum in a way that is difficult to disrupt in this offensively inclined metagame.
No they haven't. The best example, Dream World in gen5, didn't really last that long. And no, Natdex, BDSP and the like are not the same. That's just disingenous. Natdex was a whole format for those who didn't like how features/moves/mons were removed from the game. And BDSP was based on a literal whole game.
No offense but this really comes of as someone who doesn't understand the behind the scenes work that goes on to make these things work. Because you don't have to work on it, it may not matter to you if they die out, but all the work people put in to maintaining the metagame and everything goes to waste, and if it was because the ladder never really ended up popular, then it is doubly a waste. This is really just a "well if it dies it ain't my problem" kind of attitude I'm getting from this comment.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Dream World OU didn’t last long because they smothered the meta in its crib by unbanning a whole bunch of broken stuff and then BW2 had its worldwide release before it had time to recover. It was barely an example at all. It wasn’t even coded on Showdown by the time BW2 got released in Japan. The reason it folded had nothing to do with the playerbase, which was actually pretty big; it was because it was almost instantly outdated and a lot of top players got alienated by the decision to have all those Ubers running around.
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Then why can’t we have a ladder for a feature we (the anti ban crowd) don’t want removed from the game?
Tera provides a freedom to the constructive side of pokemon never seen before. It's really exciting coming up with new sets and many mons previously considering unviable are now usable. In battle, there is a frustration of not knowing exactly what your opponent has in store, but honestly that's pokemon in general. The game, in my opinion, has always been about limited resources and imperfect information. Besides, without terra the meta would be pretty stale.
That's what I think too. Tera adds creativity and surprises, I really hope it doesn't get banned. It's the best introduction since Megas (Z moves and Dynamax were rubbish in comparison)
a separate ladder really does seem like a good idea, nobody really knows if tera is truly broken long term. It adds a lot of surprise and it's hard to prepare for, but it's also a ton of fun and adds creativity to building. I really don't think it's as bad as dynamax, and I think everyone would benefit from playing in fully formed tera and non tera metagames before banning. iirc smogon used to do this in like gen 5 when they were considering a ban, there would be a whole separate ladder without the suspect (Keldeo or Torn t or whatever, I don't remember I am a boomer). even if tera ends up being banned having a separate metagame (tera OU or whatever) similar to nat dex seems like a reasonable idea that isn't really that hard to implement.
partial bans/restrictions seems really undesirable imo. tera blast isn't that bad and arbitrary bans verge on pet mods, just ban it or don't (and then give a separate ladder for tera.)
partial bans/restrictions seems really undesirable imo. tera blast isn't that bad and arbitrary bans verge on pet mods, just ban it or don't (and then give a separate ladder for tera.)
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