The 6th Gen Unbans on Showdown: Are they Broken?

[Bedschibaer]

I remember using Shaymin-S on the first 2 or so days of pokebank. Good times, but this thing is still as broken as ever.

Blaziken is still broken, and the Blaziken mega is not really better than normal Blaziken. Everyone knows what Blaziken does, get in on something that can't hurt it/is forced out, swords dance or do other shenanigans and you basically get a free kill. Azumarrill can't really switch into Blaziken, and what really does, bar Slowbro and Cresselia?

Thundurus-I feels way more dealable than in gen 5. Probably because of the special nerf, probably because Assault Vest is used kinda commonly, probably because it was imo not as broken as most of the other "brokemons". It is still an insane sweeper, but without permarain and with weakened special attacks it's not as much of an annoyance as before. Still the best prankster user in OU.

Landorus-I, another thing that suffers from no more permaweather, even though it works without sand too, and Ttar is still commonly seen in the current Pokebank metagame. Has a couple of sets that will be seen commonly.

Manaphy has one of the best boosting moves, and good coverage. Yet again, no more permaweather doesn't let it abuse Hydration anymore, but it still hits like a truck with only one turn setup.

Genesect is as annoying as ever, insane coverage, insane mixed attack stats, an ability that supports all of that and great typing. Even though steel got nerfed a bit, Genesect is as good as ever, and will be seen on a big part of all teams in the Pokebank meta.

i used all of them, mostly even on the same team

 

[Ajwf]

Having climbed the ladder to 13th on PS!, I can tell you that eventually genesect, deoxys-d, megas kan, gengar and luc will probably all end up in ubers again. That said, I'm looking at mega pinsir, kyurem b and a few others to possibly follow this gen. It doesn't seem like kyurem got better with fairy, but it doesn't mind because of neutral bolt beam taking fairies down. The majority of fairies have great special bulk and nothing to speak of on the physical side. Keldeo completely disappeared which was probably kyurem's number 1 check. Jirach is also non-existent and ground users are way up in usage due to trying to counter aegislash and heatran, who is busy countering talonflame. The great increase in ground types might be enough.

Pinsir I have my doubts about. He'll eventually be suspected for massive attack/speed combo. He's got two surprisingly decent stabs, for right now steels are gone, and eq/cc to supplement the weakness to steel. Thrash becomes a 1.95x120 base power move, though flying, it is only resisted by rock, steel and electric. EQ nails back all of those. Bug stab is okay, though less seen. I bet by February it is suspected.

 

[Zebstrika]

I have to think that mega gengar will be banned soon. It has 2 very cheap ways of coming in on an opponent that isn't specifically a good matchup against it (which is a lot).

First is using Hypnosis. If it outspeeds you, shadow tag takes effect and you are vulnerable to sleep, which is a lot, you have a 60% chance of dying (84% if you can't OHKO it). Oh, and then it can come back and do it again to another one of your team, and another, because as long as it traps your sleeping pokemon in and KOs it, sleep clause will not take effect. It can also take advantage of the sleeping mon to set up substitutes, which can make it near impossible to revenge kill with your typical pokemon who does not happen to have some combination sub breaking, immunity to sleep or luck with hypnosis, and higher speed than megengar's base 130.

Second is Perish Song. Essentially, come in on something that can't OHKO you (easier than it looks with max HP and and mega's slightly boosted defenses). Use Perish Song turn 1, and the opponent gets one shot at you. Then, spam Protect/Substitute to buy yourself 2 turns, then switch as the opponent watches helplessly, they get one more shot on your switch in as well. There are a few ways to deal with it if gengar uses substitute to buy a turn. You can weaken it to 25% or below or outspeed it and finish it off, but none of those work if gengar rolls the dice successfully and uses protect twice to try and prevent that. You can also U-turn on the switch out if you have that (or on a substitute, I believe). You can try and make the most of your dying pokemon as well, if you have moves that support your team such as dual screens, heal bell, wish on gengar's switch turn, lunar dance, that kind of stuff, but obviously a living pokemon is far superior.

 

[Ajwf]

Mega gengar can also be used to infuriate people into forfeiting. Chansey and blissey in general do not run anything to touch ghost/poison. If the opponent felt you were winning without any way of stopping it, bring in mega gengar on chansey/blissey and proceed to just stall out everything by just sitting around and hitting whatever. This can probably happen with a number of cleric-based pokemon.

Also, mega gengar has no counters. Yes, there are pokemon that will kill it, but they can't be brought it. So yes, it will be uber because of it's massive attacks and speed as well as just singling out pokes to kill.

 

[sidakarya]

Substitute is what makes M-Gengar so broken imo. You could send out a whole list of checks like AV-Tar, Scizor, or even M-Mawile just as it mega-evolves, only to have taken heavy damage the next turn while not doing anything in return. Disable sets are still a big problem because of how often priority and scarves are used to stop M-Gengar, which can be rendered useless behind a sub.

 

[Ajwf]

Mega kan seems fairly sold until you realize that focus blast probably OHKOs and sucker punch is your only answer.

Edit: That and the fact that Kan belongs in ubers, too :p

 

[michaeloche]

Mega kan seems fairly sold until you realize that focus blast probably OHKOs and sucker punch is your only answer.

Edit: That and the fact that Kan belongs in ubers, too :p

Mega Kanga does have some decent checks, though. Skarmory has enough defense to take much of what Mega Kanga can throw at it if it hasn't used Power-up Punch too many times, doesn't mind Sucker Punch due to not having many attacks, and can WW it out. Ferrothorn can make it pay for using PuP and throw seeds at it. Sableye can get a Prankster WoW off, or Klefki or Thundurus-I can use priority T-wave or the odd Toxic. Gengar can disable SP and force it out. And many Fighting type attacks OHKO, such as Mega Scizor's Superpower (only in bank atm).

Tl;dr There are plenty of ways to beat Mega Kanga, just enough to make it not broken IMO.

 

[Ajwf]

Psych over Nine (one of the biggest mega-kan users so far) said that Kan can plow through skarm after one PuP boost. I can try and replicate the calcs, but they might not be perfect.
(Where mach punch is the stand in name for power up punch, with altered damage to be base 50)

Mach Punch: 9.48 - 11.31% (first hit)
(Mach Punch: 20.79 - 24.77%)- (Mach Punch: 13.76 - 16.51%) ==7%-8% damage
———————————————————————————
PuP roles a damage of 15%-19% damage on skarm.

+2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 92-108 (28.13 - 33.02%) -- possible 4HKO
+4 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 138-162 (42.2 - 49.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 180-214 (55.04 - 65.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKOT

Fire punch is added because of skarm countering (This is just psych's own idea...) and Trevenant countering.
So yeah, after two turns of PoP, skarm is starting to hurt.

The truest kan counter is Cofagrigus with his physical wall set, using haze, willowisp, rest and shadow ball. Running lefties or even helmet, he stops the second attack with mummy.

Imo, the definition of an uber is a pokemon that has very limited counters and that, if uncountered in some way, will completely wreck an opposing team. Kan has a select handful of counters, and even one of the most for-sure walls in OU doesn't stop him, gliscor. He probably will go uber simply because he might have one counter that can stop him and the only other way it to get breloom boosted up and OHKO him.


Was going to post this last night, but Ohio got smashed by a lightning storm (and tornadoes in some areas) and most of the northern part lost electricity.

 

[Ropeburn]

Genesect is still what it was last gen: ridiculously overcentralizing. I've made a volt-turn team centering around forcing them to send something in to eat a +1 STAB U-turn, then bring in Gengar, and give them two options:
1) Let me set up a free sub
2) Get trapped by shadow tag, and eat a ridculous STAB Ghost/Poison attack


As for Blaziken: I'm glad he's gone. He was tearing through the tier with a Swords Dance set, and snagging kills on lando-t with a mixed set; even with the shift towards a more bulky metagame, he's still too much.

Excadrill is hands down the best rapid spinner in the game right now, and with Mold Breaker, there aren't really a lot of safe switch ins. I'm unsure if the Sand Rush shenanigans will make a return, but right now he's seem to have settled quite nicely.

 

[Ajwf]

I just wonder if heatran is too good for the tier's good... He counters so much and stops so much that a lot of threats are going to end up being "Heatran stops him just fine and most everyone runs heatran" (As it was the first thing that can to my mind with that gene combo and one of the only genesect hard counters). Heatran can stop a ton of threats but has no recovery to boost that ability.

 

[Ropeburn]

I just wonder if heatran is too good for the tier's good... He counters so much and stops so much that a lot of threats are going to end up being "Heatran stops him just fine and most everyone runs heatran" (As it was the first thing that can to my mind with that gene combo and one of the only genesect hard counters). Heatran can stop a ton of threats but has no recovery to boost that ability.

Heatran has always been good, and has always countered the top threats. I have no idea what you mean by "too good for the tier's good". Is that even a thing?

If Heatran is seriously the only counter to a pokemon, then the pokemon in question should be banned. That's called over-centralization, and I assure you that Smogon took steps to prevent that last gen, and I have confidence they will continue this gen.





Unless that pokemon is called Keldeo.

 

[Ajwf]

By that statement, you could say talonflame is over centralized having few critical counters in rotom-w and Heatran. But it probably won't (And shouldn't) be banned.

But yes, heatran does seem to be the answer to a lot of top tier threats and sometimes when a pokemon like heatran is run so often, it is hard for people to recognize some pokemon that are really too powerful... Though this gen, I can't think of any pokemon I'm looking at who should get banned that are countered by heatran.

Mega gar without focus blast?
Mega pinsir without cc/eq (That would be a fail, though)
Mega kan without drain punch, perhaps? One PuP is fine to be tanked, and return a lava plume burn...
Kyurem-b without earth power...

 

[Ropeburn]

By that statement, you could say talonflame is over centralized having few critical counters in rotom-w and Heatran. But it probably won't (And shouldn't) be banned.

But yes, heatran does seem to be the answer to a lot of top tier threats and sometimes when a pokemon like heatran is run so often, it is hard for people to recognize some pokemon that are really too powerful... Though this gen, I can't think of any pokemon I'm looking at who should get banned that are countered by heatran.

Mega gar without focus blast?
Mega pinsir without cc/eq (That would be a fail, though)
Mega kan without drain punch, perhaps? One PuP is fine to be tanked, and return a lava plume burn...
Kyurem-b without earth power...

I'm starting to see what you're saying, but I don't think you have to worry about that. Heatran has plenty of counters, to the point where it won't be an auto-slot on teams. Garchomp, Dragonite, Lucario, and bulky grounds all counter him effectively. He lacks the recovery and speed for me to see him as S rank. It won't be like in 4th gen where Garchomp + Garchomp counter was practically a staple on all teams.

Take Jellicent for example-Jellicent was an exceptional wall last gen, due to water absorb, was ghost type to avoid close combats, was faster than CB Tyranitar, and had a reliable recovery as well as STAB scald and a strong resistance against Keldeo not carrying HP Ghost. However, despite that, we still had a suspect test of Keldeo and Landorus. The ladder of whom was banned. ( Hope this analogy clears up what I'm saying )

TL;DR: Heatran will be a big player in this metagame, and will have a place in discussions, but the metagame won't "Revolve" around him, and he certainly won't keep Ubers in OU any time soon.

 

[Axselt]

I'm looking at his stats and his movepool, and he has just enough to wreck anything that doesn't outspeed him. I've been putting up with him since gen5, but now with keldeo being nonexistent, people are going "Oh look, a 700 BST pokemon with as much bulk as jirach and more attack than lando-t!". He's definitely not meant for OU. 170 attack tops everything else in tier and he has moldbreaker to make it even more difficult to stop him.

Well even if what you're saying is true there are now fairy types.. uhh yea. However, I felt the same way when I first encountered him. However, you should have some sort of scarfer that can easily outspeed him. If you don't, you probably have defense cores that should be atleast a 2 hit ko from Kyurem. 2 turns is enough to cripple kyurem if you know what you are doing.

 

[Axselt]

Beside genesect, Deoxys speed and defense is now back and personally I have no trouble with them. Deoxys speed is not the best in either defense or offense. Deoxys defense is a little more troublesome but there are mega evolutions(mega gangar, absol, tyranitar). If you take out the megas, there are still good counter stalls against deoxys defense. I'm hoping that they stay in OU. I've dealt with genesect a couple times now in pokebanks and I gotta say.. it doesn't feel as broken as before. I havent battled him enough to say if he's actually broken or not so I don't have much on this one.

 

[Ajwf]

The issue with fairy types is their lack of defensive bulk. Meaning that clefable is probably the single best kyurem "Counter" (as whimsicott, toge both have ice/elec weaknesses respectively)

List off genesect counters, or those that can outspeed him and kill the scarf set on regular times. Best I've seen is scarf fire fang garchomp as a lure besides heatran, who does counter (but cannot trap) genesect. His lack of counters will send him to ubers. A free boost on switch in, boltbeam and pivot, and then either an ironhead/flamethrower/bugbuzz last slot makes him a very, very tough pokemon. His usage also reflects just how good he is on a match-to-match basis.

 

[Axselt]

Yea I know what you're saying. Scarf Zapdos is one of my favorites against genesect. Scarf genesect can't outspeed scarf Zapdos if both have boosting nature and full ev in speed. I don't have to talk about Heatran that's common knowledge. Goodra is a very strong special wall and fireblast should be enough to ohko gene. Volcarona has a good chance of dealing with gene. Blissey/chancey can stall with seismic toss. Rotom-W, even though most are defensive variants, can take a few moves from gene and fireback with a hydropump(bring gene down enough to revenge kill). Talonflame is fast enough unless gene is scarfed. Most scarfers can revenge kill gene(Terrakion,Latios/as, Keldeo, etc) Infernape should have no problem unless gene is scarfed. Most Megas have moves that can deal with genesect if the player plays correctly. Mega vena can take a few hits but don't have anything to counter.

Sorry if I'm a little all over the place. But I have managed to use most of these pokemon to deal with gene. My own team is quite weak against genesect as I have no good switch ins and have to sacrifice somebody for my Zapdos to come in. But I've dealt with some genes already and I haven't been wrecked... not yet... (knock on my wooden desk)

However, even with the pokemon I used to counter genesect a few years ago, I do remember it being terribly difficult if the opponent predicts and you miscalculate even one move. Genesect was a pain and still is, but I think it is manageable to an extent from my experiences. This is just my personal view.

 

[Ajwf]

Latios isn't going to stop it... No fire move, which really is where you have to start in countering genesect. My main issue is a lot of gen will use it as a speed pivot with a +1 uturn to wear down your team over hazards. Strategy? Maybe... but it really always is hard to catch genesect, unlike others like rotom wash and lando t. Both of which are bearable because you can simply outspeed or not have to worry about them doing all hells worth of damage to you (although lando is still very effective, it has no special defense)

The Bliss family can hurt genesect unless it uturns, in which case now blissey is in trouble because physical attacks suck. I agree, it is easier this gen, but I'm not sure if it's just because there are so many more deadly megas to worry about constantly. The only saving grace to megas is one per team, but they can still be coupled with this monster. (Btw, most megas= legendary style stats... It's surprisingly scary how good a lot of them are.)

If anything, mega lucario feels more counterable than mega pinsir... I had my suspicions, but after doing calcs, it would appear that pinisr has a quick attack that is going to help send it up. Return/quick attack/ swords dance/Earthquake or CC just make it really difficult to stop especially at 155 attack. I get the feeling this one goes to ubers, because at least lucario is rather limited by steel's still limited neutral hitting and bulky waters can generally make do.

But kan is still ubers. I keep saying this, but it is making players artificially better by just being so good. Even sashes don't work... And short of techloom's mach punch, I'm not sure of any priority that OHKO's kan.

 

[Ajwf]

So was looking for a mega pinsir counter this morning for my team. The basis of a counter for mega pinsir has to be:

A.) Switches in on any move (unboosted)
B.) Can take a move at +2 and return a kill

The moveset chosen was EQ/SD/Return/Quick attack on an aerialate mega pinsir. For our purposes on the honko calc, return does 133 STAB and quick attack does 52 STAB in accordance with what an aerialate bonus would cause. So the obvious thing was, resist flying. Three types do so, steel, rock and electric. Unfortunately, all these types are hit for super effective damage by eq. In best case scenario (which cannot be hoped for), they would bring in pinsir on the counter but that won't happen.

Candidates so far:
Quagsire (Unaware of boosts)
Skarmory (resists flying, immune eq)
Zapdos
Rotom-W (all rotoms should act the same exception rotom-c)
Solrock

Calcs on these...

Mega Pinsir for ubers?

Skarm
252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 70-83 (21.4 - 25.38%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 140-165 (42.81 - 50.45%) -- 55.86% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Solrock

252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 99-117 (28.77 - 34.01%) -- 8.25% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 198-233 (57.55 - 67.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Quagsire (Why did I even bother...)
252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 198-234 (50.38 - 59.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Zapdos
252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 99-117 (25.84 - 30.54%) -- 50.24% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.69 - 60.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Rotom-w
252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rotom-W: 93-110 (30.59 - 36.18%) -- 78.49% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rotom-W: 186-219 (61.18 - 72.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Any other idea for a counter? None of these seem to work exceptionally well... Besides skarm.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

So was looking for a mega pinsir counter this morning for my team. The basis of a counter for mega pinsir has to be:

Any other idea for a counter? None of these seem to work exceptionally well... Besides skarm.

Cofagrigus:
252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 150-177 (46.87 - 55.31%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 298-352 (93.12 - 110%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 76-90 (23.75 - 28.12%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 151-178 (47.18 - 55.62%) -- 17.58% chance to 2HKO
Cofagrigus can only be hit once by Quick Attack OR Return (Mummy will make them normal moves again without Aerilate), can Pain Split back the same turn or put on a Will-O-Wisp it can also comfortably tank an EQ (though +2 EQ not all that comfortably)

Bronzong:
252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 87-103 (25.73 - 30.47%) -- possible 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 174-206 (51.47 - 60.94%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO

Bronzong can come in on any of Pinsir's moves (only QA and Return would hit it), doesn't get OHKO'd by a boosted Return, can set up a Reflect (or Trick Room) and follow up next turn with a Rock Slide (which has a small chance of landing a kill after SR and can Flinch after TR), it lacks recovery though so it will have to either kill pinsir or force it out before Pinsir sets up to more than +2 it does get Hypnosis, Confuse Ray and Psych Up as options to make something happen though.
4 Atk Bronzong Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 172-204 (63.46 - 75.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Avalugg:
252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 64-76 (16.24 - 19.28%) -- possible 8HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 128-151 (32.48 - 38.32%) -- 2.27% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 152-180 (38.57 - 45.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 302-356 (76.64 - 90.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Avalugg walls the normal set pretty much completely, if Close Combat is ran it becomes harder (especially when rocks are up), but it does have recovery and access to Roar and can OHKO back with Avalanche.
4 Atk (custom) Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 254-300 (93.38 - 110.29%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Cloyster:
252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 99-117 (32.56 - 38.48%) -- 2.39% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 195-231 (64.14 - 75.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 154-182 (50.65 - 59.86%) -- 81.64% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 306-362 (100.65 - 119.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So bear with me on this, a defensive Rapid Spin variant of Cloyster, probably not that viable but it does have the physical bulk to take a hit or two from Mega Pinsir and OHKO it back with Skill Linked Icicle Spear, if Pinsir runs CC he will always win.
4 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 240-280 (88.23 - 102.94%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

I didnt factor in Rocks in any of these calcs but in most cases it would sort of balance out (Pinsir doesnt like Rocks much either and Mega Pinsir downright hates them).

TLDR;
Cofagrigus
Bronzong
Avalugg
Cloyster
And maybe a few others (apart from the ones you listed already)
Could check and possibly counter Mega Pinsir, out of these Cofagrigus and Avalugg are probably the only ones who could realiably check/counter Mega Pinsir with a set thats actually viable.
Mega Pinsirs might well be an Über candidate in the not so distant future.

 

[Ajwf]

Out of that, I wouldn't call any but cof and skarm a counter, the rest reliable checks. Avalugg, yes... but it is going to be exceptionally hard to be at full health and take a hit. Unfortunately to lunatone, cloyster, avalugg, CC variants can squash these. Otherwise, I'd consider lunatone a 'counter'. Even then, I feel that lunatone being in ou for any reason counts as 'extreme circumstances' and hence doesn't stop an idea for a possible suspect testing.

Quagsire is worthless and rotom is a semi-unreliable check, relying on impefect accuracy willowisp to stop it. Bronzong, if dedicated, could work.I hesitate to call cloyster a check, even. Although rock blast and icicle spear provide ways to revenge kill, CC is going to hurt if it runs it (really, pinsir only has four main set attack moves return/thrash, cc, quick attack, eq so counting for CC isn't bad).

I feel that for offensive teams, mega pinsir is even bannable due to his priority hitting in the range of scizor/breloom's tech shots. The difference is, they don't have a secondary that hits all the main stab's resists for SE damage.

 

[Magnemite]

The issue with fairy types is their lack of defensive bulk. Meaning that clefable is probably the single best kyurem "Counter" (as whimsicott, toge both have ice/elec weaknesses respectively)

List off genesect counters, or those that can outspeed him and kill the scarf set on regular times. Best I've seen is scarf fire fang garchomp as a lure besides heatran, who does counter (but cannot trap) genesect. His lack of counters will send him to ubers. A free boost on switch in, boltbeam and pivot, and then either an ironhead/flamethrower/bugbuzz last slot makes him a very, very tough pokemon. His usage also reflects just how good he is on a match-to-match basis.

Genesect counters aren't nearly as rare as you think. There's the obvious Heatran, plus any scarfer with more than 99 base Speed that can hit it hard enough (hint:there's a lot of them). Deoxys-S lures Scarf Genesect, outspeeds it and OHKOs with Fire Punch. Swift Swimmers wreck it. Talonflame beats it pretty easily: 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 246-289 (86.92 - 102.12%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
Plus, specially defensive fairies and anything that resists U-turn with an Assault Vest take very little from it. 99 base Speed is below average for an OU Scarfer, so it's not difficult at all to fing a good scarfer faster than Genesect. It's not easy to check by any means, but it isn't as broken as it was before. Rock Polish on the other hand is an entirely different matter. It has gained a new check that can always revenge it after a bit of LO recoil in Talonflame, but it's still ridiculously good.

 

[Ajwf]

Again, let's define counter ITT. "Counters" are pokemon that can switch into attacks from a specific pokemon, take low damage (generally, I consider a good counter losing 33% max if both target and switch are neutral... or, for gen, +1 to neutral). If talking to a specific threat, it is a "Scarf pivot genesect" counter. If talking about the pokemon it is a 'genesect' counter.

"Checks" are pokemon who come in on switches with the checked pokemon (mainly double switching) or after a pokemon faints. These pokemon are generally HO's answers to threats. You check the pokemon, forcing it out by outspeeding and threatening a KO. Stall relies almost exclusively on counters and thus try to hold even stronger counters to take even less damage.

Lastly, walls are special and very rare in form of usage in terms of being selected vs a specific pokemon. These are reserved for monster pokemon that are just too tough to bring down at that moment or at all by your team any other way. They are also going to run by the damage idea of a counter but have no answer for harming the opponent's pokemon. Generally, they employ statuses and phaze. When a stall team refers to a 'wall', the concept is a pokemon that takes little damage from a wide variety (exp. Physical attackers) or specific category (exp. fire types) of pokemon and generally will try to counteract that with a moveslot. But, with the variety of pokemon in the metagame, sometimes a weird type gets overlooked or can't be stopped. Exp, ludicolo. If you bank on a fire wall like heatran to stop all varients of grass, ludicolo can stop that by and make your best option to just keep it off the field through roar predictions.
Generally, teams don't resort to 'walls' for specific pokemon, instead looking for the better version, 'counters'.

Fairies do fine against scarf pivot genesect, but sweeper variants are prone to having iron head. Same with some rock polish variants. A good genesect counter is a steel type that resists flame thrower somehow because flamethrower is gen's general answer to steel types. Meaning that heatran, aggron, empoleon (Although tbolt...) and a few other ground/rock + steel combos could work. Obviously, heatran is the cut-above genesect counter, resisting all stabs, immune to flamethrower, 4x resisting ice beam and taking neutral ONLY from tbolt.

Notably, rock pokemon will counter most sets minus iron head sets. Why gen doesn't carry iron head more often for surprise, I have no idea (also dishes good damage to a good bit of gen checks who try and resist uturn). But carbrink would be an awesome genesect pivot counter, though you rely heavily on there being no iron head.

 

[skaybestrog]

Psych over Nine (one of the biggest mega-kan users so far) said that Kan can plow through skarm after one PuP boost. I can try and replicate the calcs, but they might not be perfect.
(Where mach punch is the stand in name for power up punch, with altered damage to be base 50)

Mach Punch: 9.48 - 11.31% (first hit)
(Mach Punch: 20.79 - 24.77%)- (Mach Punch: 13.76 - 16.51%) ==7%-8% damage
———————————————————————————
PuP roles a damage of 15%-19% damage on skarm.

+2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 92-108 (28.13 - 33.02%) -- possible 4HKO
+4 252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 138-162 (42.2 - 49.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 180-214 (55.04 - 65.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKOT

Fire punch is added because of skarm countering (This is just psych's own idea...) and Trevenant countering.
So yeah, after two turns of PoP, skarm is starting to hurt.

The truest kan counter is Cofagrigus with his physical wall set, using haze, willowisp, rest and shadow ball. Running lefties or even helmet, he stops the second attack with mummy.

Imo, the definition of an uber is a pokemon that has very limited counters and that, if uncountered in some way, will completely wreck an opposing team. Kan has a select handful of counters, and even one of the most for-sure walls in OU doesn't stop him, gliscor. He probably will go uber simply because he might have one counter that can stop him and the only other way it to get breloom boosted up and OHKO him.


Was going to post this last night, but Ohio got smashed by a lightning storm (and tornadoes in some areas) and most of the northern part lost electricity.

A lot of the things you post in this thread are just plain wrong. If Kangaskhan does carry Fire Punch it just gets walled or beaten by different Pokemon. As a matter of fact Fire Punch is really bad because Jellicent will just straight up wall you, even if it's severely weakened. Heatran and Tyrantrum can take a hit and status you or hit you hard. Mega-Tyranitar and Aegislash can definitely take any unboosted hit and destroy your health bar.

In general there are a lot of things that can and will stop Mega-Kangaskhan. Unless you boosted to +4 Terrakion, Keldeo, Infernape, Virizion, Conkeldurr, Breloom, Cobalion, Hawlucha, Mega-Lucario and a ton of other Pokemon can just straight up revenge you.

Standard Substitute Disable Gengar can wall you to hell and back once you have Mega-Evolved unless you are running Crunch. Fire Punch Kangaskhan has to play mindgames with it.

Rough Skin Rocky Helmet Garchomp is an incredible check and Iron Barbs Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn straight up counters every set without Fire Punch. Skarmory will never ever allow you to set up to +4 so again the only way to break through is Fire Punch.

This list of counters and checks is straight from my head and there's way more. Compare that to something like Mega-Lucario who has only a handful of counters and checks but for some reason people still aren't complaining. Mega-Kangaskhan punishes bad players really hard, this is why so many people are complaining about it right now. Sorry to burst anyones bubble.

I've done extensive testing and Mega-Kangaskhan is probably the Mega I have used most so far. It will probably end up S-rank or A+-rank OU.

At least we can agree on two things and that is that Genesect is too strong for OU and that Iron Head is really good on it right now.

 

[Ajwf]

First off, please refer to my last post about "counters and checks". I defined ITT what at least I was referring to as a counter and check and what I believe to be standard for the words. You named a punch of checks.

Second, name that "different pokemon". The set would be crunch/return/fire punch/PuP. That's the hole-making/sweeper set with eq<fire punch. Fire punch mainly for skarm. Also gets ferro better. Heatran would be about the only stop I immediately think of, but you can hit that with PuP and gain boosts while doing so.

Also, issues with your counters. A) skarm is being used to counter EVERYTHING this gen. Just check the thread and how many times we reference skarm as a possible counter. B) Skarm doesn't last long vs kan. It isn't going to win, it's only going to phaze. Essentially, a 'wall' ITT context I gave. Your others are checks. Ferrothorn dies to sets with drain or fire punch, and occasionally PuP if the boosts are high enough.

Cofagrigus can even really only status, although it can go and nasty plot/hp fighting so I call it a counter, if dedicated. S class? You realize that the s class pokes last gen (jirachi, TTar, Politoed, Keldeo) could all be walled if you prepared for them? Sure, keldeo was slightly more difficult but last gen in sun it was screwed to begin with. Everything else could be countered with slower pokemon, checked with faster ones. Keldeo got suspected for being really good as a special sweeper with the one attack that targeted defense. Realistically, kan is much harder to stop and will almost certainly be banned. Cof is the only poke to wall ALL sets when kan is still at a decent boost range (+2 max, mostly).