The age of the substitute

[3v3rnoob]

psh. Encore is better because then they have to switch out on their own accord and the annoyance factor is oh so much greater.

 

[Ericcc]

However, there are a lot of pokemon that use substitute "well". Perhaps more often than not. Gengar likes to come in, forcing a switch on a revenge killer, and getting his sub up to mess with whatever comes in next. Anyone with a sleep move can sleep their opponent and take the free sub and do the same thing. Perhaps a better question is, what pokemon absolutely CANNOT use substitute successfully?

Frail Pokemon who really can't afford to set up a Sub. Like Infernape, who's health is already being lowered through LO recoil

 

[Eggbert]

Sub is also excellent to stop revenge killing. It makes you basically sack something to break the sub, to revenge kill. Breloom, gengar, ect.

Pain Split gengar can actually use the sub and life orb too.

 

[Aqueos]

Encore alakazam anyone? Simply switch in blissey take the spore and lol as you encore.

 

[Pratty]

Encore alakazam anyone? Simply switch in blissey take the spore and lol as you encore.

A smart Breloom will ALWAYS use Substitute as it's first move. Only Scrub Brelooms use Spore first.

Minimum ATk, Minus Attack Nature Breloom does 92.4% - 108.7% with Focus Punch to Max HP/Max DEF Bold Blissey.

So, using Blissey as a pivot to Encore Alakazam is only going to lose you Blissey.

Also, Blissey's Natural Cure will heal it of Sleep on the switch out. Then your Alakazam will be slept on the switch-in. GJ.

 

[Baldafor]

This is a direct copy-paste from the move description:

Substitute does not block Attract, Destiny Bond, Disable, Encore, Foresight, Guard Swap, Haze, Heart Swap, Imprison, Miracle Eye, Odor Sleuth, Perish Song, Power Swap, Psych Up, Roar, Role Play, Skill Swap, Spite, Taunt, Torment, Transform, or Whirlwind.

A "smart" Breloom uses Sub first, so you switch in right after they sub. They can Leech Seed, Spore, Focus Punch, Seed Bomb, or Stone Edge you in this position. Any faster user of Encore wins right there. A Whirlwind user with Resttalk like Gyarados would work, but I am having a hard time thinking of one that can take a Stone Edge AND Focus Punch AND Seed Bomb.

Synchronize might work behind the sub, and it would ease prediction as to what he is packing. A sleeping Breloom behind a sub is just as dead as anything.

 

[Unholy]

Synchronize does not pass sleep.

 

[Greyfeld]

Lol this is my first time on these boards, and I'm just like ".... uh...." while reading this whole thing xD

But I will put my two cents in and say that I don't think sub is broken. Strong and useful, but not gamebreaking.

 

[nesan]

Substitute is like poking on wound!AWW
It does have its positive and negative effects. As we all know Breloom is one of the deadliest Pokemon with Substitute. IMO it's an awesome move for set up! Using it on pokemon such as Empoleon, Jirachi etc. to set up just awesome. With their "too many " resistance it fits those pokemon perfectly. Thunder Wave Jirachi with Substitute is another set that I've been using which is working out great so far.
Some of the most dangerous pokemon with substitute that I've faced are....
Breloom- OMG
Machamp- IMO if I let it sub then it's GG
Kingdra- Pretty Strong with great typing
Magnezone- Usually takes out at lest on pokemon
Porygon-z with Hyper Beam - This things is god with Substitute + Nasty Plot


Countering Substitute
IMO countering substitute is one of the challenging things in a battle.

Pseudo-hazerer - These things are too easy to predict. Fro example Pokemon like Skarmory, Suicune, Swampert are switching in on a Pokemon with substitute up! The reason? Well of course Roar/Whirlwind. The opponent can predict 99.9999% of the time!

Attacking it- Well this is like giving your opponent a free turn! Still causes too many troubles!


Once a Sub is up then you MUST give you opponent a free turn while you break the Sub! No other way to stop it!

There isn't a 100% way to counter Substitute and IMO the use of Taunt and Pseudo-hazerers will raise in popularity over time as Substitute gets popular!

 

[spweasel]

Before 4th Gen Subsitute was fairly thinly spread.

Generation 1: Available from a TM that (almost) anybody could use
Generation 2: Available from Pokemon traded from Gen 1
Generation 3: Available from a Move Tutor that (almost) anybody could use
Generation 4: Available from a TM that (almost) anybody can use

I fail to see how Gen 4 was any different from the first 3.

On topic, I don't think that Substitute really qualifies as "overpowered" - it certainly isn't as metagame defining as Stealth Rock, for example. It is certainly a powerful tool if used properly, but it has enough counters to be a blank slot a good portion of the time. I like that it rewards whichever player predicts better, since it can become either a free turn for the user or a free 25% damage for the opponent depending on who guesses right.

I'm also not sure that providing a counter for status effects is an entirely bad thing. The random natures of Confusion, Paralysis, and Sleep are some of the biggest sources of frustration in the game, and I personally like the idea that basically any Pokemon can at least partially counter them.

The one strategy that I don't care for is abusing Substitute with berries and abilities which activate at low health. It just feels like it is abusing the mechanic in ways it was never intended; Substitute should be about sacrificing HP for a chance at a tempo boost, not about sacrificing HP for a free status boost.

Incidentally, I agree that Encore should have wider distribution. The thought of switching Ninjask into an Earthquake and then Encoring it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside (especially for the Battle Tower).

 

[marxistplot]

"The age of Substitute"

Substitute is good, I'd say the amount of teams with a substitute user might even be passing up the amount of teams without one... but it's not required to make a competitive battle team, you aren't handicapped if you don't free up a move slot for it...

Stealth rock is that way, i think it's a little funny how we notice that substitute usage is going up, but stealth rock is so engraved into our brains that (at least i) think of it as a critical aspect of a team. You can't make a competitive team without stealth rock.

 

[JjJ]

i <3 substitute, I have played many games utilising my subseeding breloom in the wifi battle tower rooms where actual ppl's teams are controlled by computers and it does wonders, of course it is alot different playing against an actual person though but its still fun

 

[3v3rnoob]

I think that the encore Alakazam will do extremely well in the new meta. It's downright faster than anything that makes good use of substitute, and then encores the sub. At this point it just lols when the next move fails and gets a free attack on whatever comes in.

 

[Andy Snype]

I think that the encore Alakazam will do extremely well in the new meta. It's downright faster than anything that makes good use of substitute, and then encores the sub. At this point it just lols when the next move fails and gets a free attack on whatever comes in.

While that is a potential benefit, alakazam does not necessarily gain a free attack on a new pokemon. Since it's faster, it's guaranteed to break the sub, but the encored user can stay in and use sub to predict that. This may allow you to gain a free turn, but keep in mind that the metagame has many entry hazards and forms of residual damage, namely SR, SS, t-spikes, burn, toxic, and spikes. Alakazam may lose as much as 56.25% in one switch-in turn, assuming no leftovers, SS/hail, burn, 3 layers of spikes, and SR. But usually they will lose about 18.75%, assuming hail/ss without Lefties, and one layer of SR. In addition, the item choice on the alakazam will make a difference as LO helps gain 2hko's but severely decreases longevity, but Lefties will nullify SS/hail damage, and reduce damage done.

Also, another problem with encore alakazam is the 55/45/85 defenses it has. Generally pokes use substitute on pokes that they switch out, hence gaining a "free sub;" however, players can also anticipate counters coming in to phaze or do something to get rid of the substitute or the pokemon, and they can opt to attack the switch-in. The most common substitute users I've seen are Machamp and Breloom, both of whom can attack rather than sub. Breloom may use Seed Bomb or Focus Punch off the bat while Machamp can Payback to predict a ghost. Jolly Breloom's Focus Punch does 87.7% - 103.4% to the Sub-Encore Alakazam set. Subchamp's Dpunch does: 64.4% - 75.9% to the same set. Throw in the fact that the metagame is riddled with spikes, SR, burn/toxic, and most importantly SS (neutralizing the effect of leftovers or dealing 1/16 for non-lefties variants.). So Breloom OHKO's you after rocks, and Machamp dents kazam. If alakazam switches out, then it's just lost 1/8 of its health.

 

[mgbguy]

While substitute is a fabulous move, no, it's not for every Pokemon; it has to have a specific reason to be on the moveset. For example...

Forretress @ Life Orb
Impish/Relaxed, 252Atk, 252HP, 4SpD
Substitute
Explosion
Earthquake
Payback/Gyro Ball

This was made for an explosion team; it's got a short lifespan anyway, so he can afford to use LO instead of leftovers. The substitute is specifically to block faster users of fire moves, which are 90% of attackers. It's not here to be used on turn 1 always, just if the situation calls for it; but, it can save 'Tress from embarrassing deaths by Heatran and Rotom-A.

Does Sub need more counters? Maybe, but not in the form of status bypassing subs; sleep already did that back in Gen 1. A buff to existing multi-hit moves might work, because they already have some distribution, but most just really suck (Double Kick, Fury Attack, Triple Kick, Pin Missile, etc.)

 

[TODICHU]

To stop Substitute I pack Taunt on most of my teams.

 

[Ace Emerald]

To stop Substitute I pack Taunt on most of my teams.

Taunt, phasing moves and encore have tons of utility outside of stoping subs. I don't use those moves because of subs, I use them because with prediction they can add to your team.

On a different note....
I think if you can predict well, force a switch, and get a sub, then you should be able to use said sub to wreak havok. You got it up there, you can use it.

 

[M BLADE]

One good sub user is CM Raikou.
It easily gets many CM with Sub while having great speed.
It differs from Jolteon beause CM Raikou is more like a sweeper (and it can set up against Porygon 2 unlike Jolteon).

It can set up on:

-Rotom
-Magnezone
-Most Celebi
-Suicune and Vaporeon
-Zapdos and Togekiss
-Tentacruel

While it scares off:

-Infernape
-Gengar
-Starmie

Thats a good number for me.

 

[bw5550]

Yes, I agree with many that taunt and encore are the best weapons to use against a sub. However, that only works when you are able to predict the sub. Or if you have a fast encore user. But mainly, the key to being sub is prediction.

 

[Jats605]

Hehe, SubBliss FTW :D

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

Before 4th Gen Subsitute was fairly thinly spread. Now its a TM and every pokemon can use it. If this becomes the case with Encore in gen 5, we're good to go.

On another note, I like Substitute's concept a lot, but now it's pretty broken. If they nerf it in Gen 5 so that status attacks go through it, this "era" will end just like that.

indeed. few things in life are funnier than screwing up a Ninjask with an encore from Pikachu. I don't think Sub needs a nerf, though-I like how it stops statuses, since not everyone will fun a Protect/Safeguard.